So, Spoilers Ahead!
***Spoilers Begin Here***
Ok, so in Black flames you meet Farcluun who *gasp!* turns out to be a dragon. I have a few issues with this, and I was wondering if those more knowledgeable about the setting could help me out.
1. A dragon? I thought the only ones capable of that feat were the SK's? Don't you need the Dark Lens to do that? How would this completely unknown character become a dragon?
2. Aren't dragons supposed to be bigger? This adventure includes a flip-book for the players and shows various scenes in the adventure. Most pictures that show Farcluun in his true form show him as being roughly medium-sized. His stat block lists him as being medium-sized as well. I suppose I could fake it and say that he is actually much taller (it shows him standing on two legs, wingless, basically like a lizard man)
Also, for bonus points, I am not entirely sure how to do skill challenges in 4e. I understand the rules have been described as be broken...
At one point in the adventure the players are caught up in a sandstorm (farcluun's doing) where they are robbed of their mounts and water. I think this would be a good skill challenge as the players look for cover and try to keep from losing their equipment. They MUST lose thier mounts and water. How would you go about running this encounter? If the players lose their equipment it isn't so bad because Farcluun will give them some equipment later... but how would you do it?
2. As dragons go through the metamorphosis, they get bigger. In Black Flames, Farcluun is a relatively low-level and early-stage dragon (Like level 21 or 22 or something, if memory serves). As such, the overwhelming size hasn't kicked in. In fact, other than Dregoth and Borys, the other SK's weren't really that advanced either.
1st off, skill challenges take some getting used to. While easy to understand on paper, it relies on vivid descriptions and the willingness of your players to be fun and exciting. Many groups do not include SC's in their games, and that is a perfectly good way of playing DnD 4E.
But if you do want to run the sandstorm as a skill challenge, here are a few pointers:
- Read the DMG2. It presents errata'd DC's, and it goes into amazing detail as to how to run different types of SC's. It can explain the nuances better than I could ever do.
- My suggested complexity is 3 (or 4 if you have 5-6 players), so that it will feel like an encounter in its own right, but not be too long and possibly dragging.
- Avoid absolutes. Now, I know that you want them to necessarily lose their mounts and water, but I honestly think that robbing the players of the opportunity to save these items is a bad way to do SC's. My suggestion is to turn these into the stages of failure: They will find shelter regardless of success or failure. On their 1st failed skill check, they lose the mounts. On the second failed check, they stumble onto a particularly strong part of the sandstorm and must leave their burdening equipment to survive (if they insist on taking it with them, add +5DC to all further checks, but inform them that this is what will happen). On the third botch, they fail the SC. They do find shelter on time, but each member loses a healing surge from the tiring ordeal, and they are weakened on the first round of their next combat encounter.
- Make Endurance a pivotal skill in this encounter. At the end of each round, have them roll for a group Endurance check at a normal DC. If at least half of them succeed, count it as 1 success in the challenge. Otherwise, count is as a failed check.
- Other interesting skills are Athletics, Insight, Nature (can be used as animal empathy while the mounts are alive, and with trying to maneuver blindly when the mounts do die), and Heal (success counts as a successful Endurance check for an ally by the end of the round, maybe make it a Hard DC, though). History might be a good secondary skill.
I ran it some years ago... it's not the best adventure we played but we had some fun.
As I remember, I avoided all this "dragon" issues turning Fracluun into a "simple" powerful defiler.
Previously I ran the Arcane Shadow adventure and my players met the pyreen (don't remember her name) and help it. She said to them that they could once call her for help.
Later when my players were facing Farcluun, one of them call this pyreen. They could flee... while Farclunn were fighting (and killing) the pyreen (great impact on my players
). Then Farcluun faced again, while weakened, the PC's. An epic fight!1. A dragon? I thought the only ones capable of that feat were the SK's? Don't you need the Dark Lens to do that? How would this completely unknown character become a dragon?
You are mistaken. Any defiler may become a dragon assuming he obtains copies of or is taught the necessary metamorphosis spells and meets the requirements to cast them. I think you may be confusing "becoming a dragon" with "granting Templar spells" regarding things only the SKs are capable of, as well as confusing "becoming a Champion" with "becoming a dragon" in regards to what the Dark Lens is needed for.
2. Aren't dragons supposed to be bigger? This adventure includes a flip-book for the players and shows various scenes in the adventure. Most pictures that show Farcluun in his true form show him as being roughly medium-sized. His stat block lists him as being medium-sized as well. I suppose I could fake it and say that he is actually much taller (it shows him standing on two legs, wingless, basically like a lizard man)
A dragon's size depends upon the stage of the metamorphosis; the early stages are quite human sized. See the "Dragon Kings" hardback volume for more information.
At one point in the adventure the players are caught up in a sandstorm (farcluun's doing) where they are robbed of their mounts and water. I think this would be a good skill challenge as the players look for cover and try to keep from losing their equipment. They MUST lose thier mounts and water. How would you go about running this encounter? If the players lose their equipment it isn't so bad because Farcluun will give them some equipment later... but how would you do it?
I would toss that "MUST" garbage right out the window, honestly. Railroading sucks. Other than that, as I have no experience or real knowledge of 4E, I can't give specific advice on how to make the skill challenges work for you. However, Rob Donoghue has a couple of posts on crafting skill challenges, including The Siege of Fallcrest, which may prove helpful in how to approach their design. Critical Hits also has a huge page of links on skill challenge design.
1. There are a lot of discontinuities throughout Dark Sun, and it is left up to the individual DM to basically figure out what s/he wants or doesn't want in his/her campaigns. Me, I see the Dark Lens as a key component for becoming a Champion of Rajaat, but not necessarily a Dragon. My particular take on it is that Dregoth figured out the Dragon Metamorphosis first (he's referred to in Rise & Fall of a Sorcerer-King as potentially having been as such; that he was already very powerful before becoming a Champion), and Rajaat manipulated it a little and made Hamanu special. Dregoth and Borys gave the metamorphosis to the other Champions after they overthrew Rajaat, in an effort to keep Rajaat in prison (Dregoth and Borys gave the starting metamorphosis to the others, and then the combined effort of all of them afterwards converted Borys into The Dragon).
While it isn't clearly codified, I don't think it is "discontinuities". There are a few different things going on in several of the books and supplements. Here are just a few:
1 - Rajaat's Champions =/= dragons. While all champions seem to have been dragons, not all dragons were champions.
2 - Rajaat's champions and their connection to the dark lens is what gave them the ability to grant others spells.
3 - Several immortals (of which Dregoth was one) existed before and seperate from the dragon metamorphosis. So it appears that the dark lens and/or metamorphosis also granted immortality, but was not the only path.
4 - It is hinted that any powerful defiler/psionicist that lives several lifetimes will eventually metamorph into a dragon. (Which seems kinda odd since it also seems to require specific rituals)
I kinda read it as Rajaat helped all of his champions start on the path towards being dragons (including Dregoth), but that several of the champions were already incredibly powerful in their own right before Rajaat turned them into his champions and dragons. So both Farcluun and Kalak were supposedly dragons that figured out how to evolve on their own. The one thing that they old fiction tried to reinforce was that tons of knowledge was lost over the ages. While Rajaat, the dark lens, and the dragon evolution are the most well known path to incredible power that doesn't mean Rajaat was omniscient, all powerful, or had created the only viable pathes to power and immortality. (All just my opinion of course)
It will be interesting to see how they handle the whole magical evolution thing - it was a consistent theme in both the books and rules suplements. It will be interesting to see if they also fold in the old druidic and elemental evolutions (and maybe a psionic one).
It will be interesting to see how they handle the whole magical evolution thing - it was a consistent theme in both the books and rules suplements. It will be interesting to see if they also fold in the old druidic and elemental evolutions (and maybe a psionic one).
I'm fully expecting a Dragon Epic Path, maybe an Avangion one (not sure). I'd be shocked if they provide other Epic Paths -- but for me, it is easy enough to sketch one up based on the material we compiled back when making the Epic rules for Athas.org's releases.
It will be interesting to see how they handle the whole magical evolution thing - it was a consistent theme in both the books and rules suplements. It will be interesting to see if they also fold in the old druidic and elemental evolutions (and maybe a psionic one).
I'm fully expecting a Dragon Epic Path, maybe an Avangion one (not sure). I'd be shocked if they provide other Epic Paths -- but for me, it is easy enough to sketch one up based on the material we compiled back when making the Epic rules for Athas.org's releases.
Most will call this heresey, but personally I found the Avangion a little odd. I'd much prefer that arcane casters all evolve into something similar to the old SKs, but tied to different traditional dragon colors/types based on personality - including preservers changing into metalic dragons. I know that gets away from the original fiction, but preservers as basically good dragons works better for me for something for PCs to wrap their head around. Changing into something with absolutely no limbs is problematic at best.
I bet we'll at least get a spirit of the land epic path - considering what happened to elemental priests, I doubt we'll see that though.
It can be argued (and has been) that all arcane source users could transform into dragons, whether they were defilers or preservers, and thus would only differ from one another in the field of whether they defile or not.
Most will call this heresey, but personally I found the Avangion a little odd. I'd much prefer that arcane casters all evolve into something similar to the old SKs, but tied to different traditional dragon colors/types based on personality - including preservers changing into metalic dragons. I know that gets away from the original fiction, but preservers as basically good dragons works better for me for something for PCs to wrap their head around. Changing into something with absolutely no limbs is problematic at best.
I bet we'll at least get a spirit of the land epic path - considering what happened to elemental priests, I doubt we'll see that though.
Heresy!
No really, you can do whatever you want at high levels... inclduing re-introducing the metallic vs chromatic dragon skin colors (color-coded for your convenience!). I've never read a great reason to exclude the Dragons except that the setting is non-traditional and Dragons are definitely traditional, and metallic dragons don't fit any of the setting themes. Use metallic dragons if neither of these problems really bother you.
I'm starting to see ties between the Feywild and the Avangion epic destiny. Can a high-powered sorcerer bring back the Feywild, and return the world to a verdant state?
Dragons could have auras, avangions could have breath weapons, both could have tentacles or horns or any number of things. It was much better this way, IMO.
Yes, me too. And I do hope the board concensus eventually goes this way. One way of interpreteing the PP this way is when all the SKs are seen and some have weird non-dragon appearances, and the scene when Kalak is said to have wanted to imitate the Dragon's appearance during his own transformation, suggesting the typical dragon shape drawn by Brom and Baxa is unique to the Dragon and any imitators.
Metalic dragons, really? We definitly haven't been reading the same setting. There is not an hint of the classic chromatic/metalic distinction in Dark Sun, intentionaly.
Heh, nah, we're reading the same setting. Though I'm begining to feel like you're only reading every third word of my posts. I never suggested that it existed in the setting - I said I personally would prefer that all wizards evolved into dragons and that the metalic/chromatic distinction were used. That wasn't me disliking the existing dragons but more hate for the avangion concept.
It can be argued (and has been) that all arcane source users could transform into dragons, whether they were defilers or preservers, and thus would only differ from one another in the field of whether they defile or not.
Now that I have no idea how you are getting from the setting. Considering that the Dragon Kings supplement and several fiction books made it very clear that becoming a dragon involved absorbing the life-force of thousands of people and involved a madness period of decades where you would defile like crazy, that doesn't seem possible without some serious handwaving.
The only hint of that I ever saw was some lay-people in the setting calling the avangion metamorphosis the preserver dragon transformation - and in the face of everything else that could just be chalked up to calling it something based on the only reference point they were familiar with. (Though it always confused me how in one book the SKs' true forms were a closely kept secret and then in others not only that was heard of, but so was an avangion.)
As cool as an a la carte menu of transformation abilities sounds, I seriously think that is unlikely. Epic Destinies have only a small number of granted items - I just don't see them spending a lot of space in the book just to give those kind of options. My bet is we see a Dragon and Avangion Epic Destiny and maybe a Spirit of the Land one, but then the rest will be more traditional Epic Destinies just with a Dark Sun feel.
Chris, Cliff, and perhaps a third one - not counting me - have in the past voiced what I think you just said you're against, that things can conceptually be made easier if one says the a wizard can become a dragon, whether it is dedicated to life or destruction, and that a dragon's form can be anything you want, from a flying lizard creature to a giant mothman to a bird or any other form we've seen displayed in the Prism Pentad.
It comes down to close to the same as having dragons and avangions as clearly seperated beings, but it does point to a philosophical underpinning to the concept, in that you decide what you become...instead of being presented with a pure path of evil and a pure path of good.
And it's not every three words, it's four. People I like earn five.
For you Chris, 4E DS will be oh so sweet, because you won't pay for it. Your friend Alex will do that for you ;)
Chris, Cliff, and perhaps a third one - not counting me - have in the past voiced what I think you just said you're against, that things can conceptually be made easier if one says the a wizard can become a dragon, whether it is dedicated to life or destruction, and that a dragon's form can be anything you want, from a flying lizard creature to a giant mothman to a bird or any other form we've seen displayed in the Prism Pentad.
It comes down to close to the same as having dragons and avangions as clearly seperated beings, but it does point to a philosophical underpinning to the concept, in that you decide what you become...instead of being presented with a pure path of evil and a pure path of good.
And it's not every three words, it's four. People I like earn five.
I can definitely see that idea. A single Advanced Being epic destiny, with flexibility enough for the player to be able to shape his/her character however the player wants. I'd just hope that it requires either a psionic character with an arcane multiclass feat, or an arcane character with a psionic multiclass feat -- to give the sense of blending between those two powers that seemed to typify the whole concept of advanced beings -- be they dragons, avangions, or anything else.
4E definitely takes more of a simplified view for rules, and I think multiple epic destinies for these kinds of things are unrealistic.
Oh, and I don't think that they should just be NPC's. I think the whole idea of it being something a player can have his/her character work toward, in an Epic Destiny, fits quite well with 4E's new mechanics. It provides a series of advantages, and a way for the character to eventually exit the game in a very epic manner (how much more epic in Dark Sun is it to become a Dragon?) I could see the abilities being mostly spread so that the character doesn't fully metamorphosize in the 10 levels of the Epic tier... maybe it ends with the character at what would have been where 2E said would be the 5th or 6th level (25 - 26, in AD&D 2E).