For those who aren't familiar with how defiling originally worked, upon making a mage type character, you had to choose at character generation if you wanted to be a defiler or a preserver. Unlike in 4e, a defiler always defiled. They had no choice, and little way to hide their antics. However, they leveled much faster than a preserver (in 2e, all classes leveled at different rates of accrued experience). They were also able to only disguise themselves at low levels, radiating an evil aura upon accruing higher levels of power. And if forced to cast a spell (say to gain entrance to the city of Altaruk), they wouldn't be able to hide what they were.
A preserver, however, was able to choose whether or not he wanted to defile, but upon prolonged defiling, he immediately became a defiler of the same level, losing a significant amount of xp. He could redeem himself, and become a preserver once more after a seriously arduous amount of time and with a bit of hoop-jumping. Defiling was all or nothing, and once you walked that road, it was next to impossible to hide.
So, to get back on topic, let me just say that no, I have no plans to implement some sort of crazy experience rate homerule to defilers or let them switch back and forth. I only posted an outline of the 2e mechanic to shed some light on how defiling originally worked, and how the decision was much more meaningful and long term. As 4e defiling stands now, you can basically do it as long as no one's looking and you're in the clear (Well, yeah, you zap your party, but whatever, just tell the grumpy defender it was the sorcerer-kings and their evil voodoo).
So my plan as of now, and I would love some input from veteran Dark Sun'ers, is to add a defiling counter of sorts. It would work as follows: Add the following line to the Arcane Defiling feature after the sentence "This damage ignores immunities and cannot be reduced in anyway."
"You immediately accrue a Mark of Defiling."
Marks of Defiling would accrue up to 10 and have two simple mechanics to attempt to emulate the original Dark Sun's take on defiling.
For every Mark of Defiling on a character, there is a 10% chance that every time the character uses an arcane attack power (ANY arcane attack power, not just a daily), that they defile. They still wouldn't receive the benefit of Arcane Defiling unless they were using a daily, and therefore wouldn't receive yet another Mark of Defiling. The effect on the environment, however, would still be widely visible to anyone paying even the slightest bit of attention. This represents the addictive and tempting nature of defiling, getting harder and harder to avoid the more it is purposefully committed.
For every Mark of Defiling on a character, they receive a -1 penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Streetwise. This represents the malignant presence of a defiler in 2nd edition. Originally, I had planned on simply giving a -1 to all charisma based skill checks, but it makes little sense that a defiler would be LESS scary than average (intimidate).
The Marks can be slowly removed over time with patience. At the end of each full week that the character has not purposefully defiled, they make a saving throw with NO modifiers. A success removes a single Mark of Defiling, a failure represents the lingering, maliciousness of defiling magic. Upon a failure, the character will simply have to wait another week before trying again (assuming that character doesn't purposefully defile before then). Of course, this means that a character could go /months/ without defiling on purpose and still be unable to shake the effects. When frustrations rise, so do the temptations to just throw caution to the wind and start defiling regulary. The road back from being a defiler was not an easy one, originally.
As I said, I'd love to hear opinions from anyone that feels defiling should be a more meaningful decision or that remembers what defiling was like in the early days of Dark Sun. Feel free to post other suggestions, just know ahead of time, I keep my games very fast paced; any overly complicated mechanics or rules will be ignored.
Generally, I don't like the result of the mechanic: arcane characters, upon using a balanced ability (Arcane Defiling as written), take on the risk that their characters become less under their own control. IE, once you defile, you are always at risk losing control of your own character.
In its official form, Arcane Defiling represents a tough choice about whether to sacrifice allies to harm enemies. After this houserule, allies are constantly exposed to this danger. I think this will create a lot of pressure from the party for the player to simply never defile, because it's not worth the risk.
I understand the motive, and the mechanic isn't terrible, but I don't think it works well the rest of the official mechanic.
What I might suggest is that: As the marks accrue, it becomes harder to not defile, but it also become less personally consequential, perhaps through reduced damage to allies. In other words, you find it hard to resist defiling, but you also get better at it. Eventually, a persistent defiler always defiles, but they learn to drain less from allies and more from the environment. I recognize the mechanical imbalance here (because it eventually allows permanent re-rolls on daily powers with no cost), but I'm not sure how to address that.
I have mixed feelings about the social penalty. It makes intuitive sense, but I'm worried that it unduly penalizes Charisma characters like bards and sorcerers. I wonder if there's a way to model it without hitting Charisma. My first through is that a defiler is more like to draw attacks. For instance, all things being equal, monsters attack defilers before other characters.
As written, it appears that every time you defile a daily power, you get a mark. Additional marks still seem to rack up when dailies are defiled, even involuntarily. I'm not sure if that's the intent.
For now, it is. I may change it to only give additional Marks of Defiling when intentionally defiling. I'll have to think about it. The only scenario I would want to avoid is people trying to ride the 7 or 8 Mark line, where they can basically count on it proc'ing when they need it to, but then not receiving the penalty for defiling. In this scenario, they're clearly /wanting/ to defile, and should receive a mark. We'll see.
Generally, I don't like the result of the mechanic: arcane characters, upon using a balanced ability (Arcane Defiling as written), take on the risk that their characters become less under their own control. IE, once you defile, you are always at risk losing control of your own character.
I think 'losing control of your own character' is a bit overstated but, I see what you're saying. The thing is (and forgive me if you played original DS and already know this), defiling shouldn't be something you dabble in. If you start to do it, it's hard to stop. It /should/ be hard to stop. It's incredibly addictive and gives the user a rush of power both real and psychological. There is a reason the SKs are the masters of defiling and you can bet they don't just defile their spells when they 'need to'. (Not that they're exactly adventuring or going toe-to-toe with anyone on a daily basis)
In its official form, Arcane Defiling represents a tough choice about whether to sacrifice allies to harm enemies. After this houserule, allies are constantly exposed to this danger. I think this will create a lot of pressure from the party for the player to simply never defile, because it's not worth the risk.
Good! The general stigma towards spellcasters (especially defilers) doesn't end once it reaches the PC's. Most Dark Sun inhabitants, including player characters, should equally revile defilers and even most casters. Yes, obviously if they travel with a wizard or have a warlock buddy they've been adventuring with since level 1, they'll be less classist (pun intended). But unless they're either a) a defiler themselves or b) Batshit evil, they /should/ be pressuring their party member to stop defiling. It's not a pleasant thing to be around or to see and can bring the wrath of the locals (including templars!) down on the party very, very quickly.
What I might suggest is that: As the marks accrue, it becomes harder to not defile, but it also become less personally consequential, perhaps through reduced damage to allies. In other words, you find it hard to resist defiling, but you also get better at it. Eventually, a persistent defiler always defiles, but they learn to drain less from allies and more from the environment. I recognize the mechanical imbalance here (because it eventually allows permanent re-rolls on daily powers with no cost), but I'm not sure how to address that.
I think this is counter-intuitive to defiling at its very nature. As defilers grow in power and expertise, they don't start to gain a conscience and worry about hurting their buddies. Again, defiling is not just some option casters have in Dark Sun. It comes with a very real psychological effect. As defilers grow in power, they're (generally) going to be more and more likely to hurt their teammates if it gives them a little more power.
I have mixed feelings about the social penalty. It makes intuitive sense, but I'm worried that it unduly penalizes Charisma characters like bards and sorcerers. I wonder if there's a way to model it without hitting Charisma. My first through is that a defiler is more like to draw attacks. For instance, all things being equal, monsters attack defilers before other characters.
It should penalize social characters. To quote the Revised Box Set:
Because a defiler destroys life as a natural matter of course, his aura has a permanent taint that increases with every rise in level. At low levels, this taint is simply a bad feeling that others sense dimly. At higher levels, the taint becomes a malignant air of death that even the dullest half-giants can detect. In game terms, this is reflected with a Charisma penalty that is applied whenever a defiler interacts with other characters...
It then goes on to explain the 2nd edition ruleset for this penalty that doesn't apply to 4th edition (it actually reduced your Charisma by a flat amount. Needless to say, /that/ would unduly penalize Charisma characters). If the bard in question is a practiced defiler, I don't care what his class skills are, people are not going to be as willing to interact with him. It was his choice to take the easy route to power. Of course, a defiler isn't likely to be worried about getting what he wants through diplomacy anyway.
So, perhaps we just have different views on defiling in general. I prefer the more unforgiving, all-or-nothing approach that 2nd Edition took. It added yet another very-grim element to Athas that set it apart from Toril or Oerth. Defiling is something a caster has to try /not/ to do in Athas, but as the rule is currently, it's something they have to try to do. If you prefer the more user-friendly version that 4th edition takes to defiling, I can respect that, but it's not for me.
edit: I know it seems like I'm being completely contrary, but I really do appreciate your input and it will be considered before I implement anything into my campaign. So thank you.
Rather than giving penalties, sucumbing to defiling addiction would grant a small bonus (+1 to arcane attacks or damage, save penalty for enemies, a free at-will spell and/or cantrip, free defiling feat, defiling aura where non-minion enemies also take damage from Arcane Defiling, bonus to rituals, etc.) and each arcane spell you cast would defile; daily powers would automatically activate the Arcane Defiling power. Remember that any defiling (not just activation of the Arcane Defiling power) can create defiled terrain at the DM's discretion, you could also rule that it bumps the defiler up in the initiative ranking or whathaveyou.
Once you're addicted to defiling, it could take a minor action to preserve, and you'd be able to roll to resist the Defiling Addiction for each day (week, month, etc.) that you cast spells and didn't defile.
Whatever you decide, I think the key is to make sure it fits with what the players want. The philosophy of 4e is fun for everyone, which tends to come from balance among the classes. If you have an all-defiler game, there's no real need to give out some extra bonus. If you have a preserving game, it could be worth it to increase the temptation to defile, but a reroll on the big guns isn't something to scoff at. (I should note that I also increased the bang of defiling, by giving a +10 to arcana checks on rituals when you defile.)
Given the immense RP penalties that should follow from defiling (including possibly being killed by other party members, should they find out) its worth asking yourself again why you want to boost the power of defiling. What does it add to your story, and what sorts of stories are likely to come out of this mechanic?
There is still a choice but neither is automatic. I too have given +10 to arcana when you defile with rituals.
I'm down to one arcane character in our current game and may test out addiction as disease; he's the right kind of gamer to test run the temptation.
There have been a lot of threads about defiling... Do a quick serch and you'll get a lot of hits including my house rules. The quick of it is defiling is default and you have to make a moderate arcana check to not defile...
So higher level defilers can more easily hide the fact that they're defilers? This goes against the original DS defiling mechanic, being that defilers had virtually no way to hide what they were if they were casting arcane spells. This is the kind of mechanic I'm trying to bring back. (Effectively, I want those shrubs around Altaruk to actually still mean something)
I see you want a stronger defiling mechanic- a lot of people don't and a lot are concerned with balance. With my house rules there are more benefits to defiling and if you don't defile you risk harming yourself (1+ spell lvl unresistable dmg); you are fueling the spell with your own life force. Defiling is mechanically superior, easier, and tempting. Preserving is not often penalized but there are not the RP drawbacks.
With my house rules there are more benefits to defiling and if you don't defile you risk harming yourself (1+ spell lvl unresistable dmg);
This I like.
But I don't like dedicated defilers being able to easily hide it by either passing a mod. check or taking a bit of damage. Basically, the scene that would make me vomit would be:
Altaruk Guard: "Halt, mage. To gain entrance here, you must display a level of control uncommon amongst your type. We will need to see a minor display before allowing you entry."
Defiler: "Kay. "
Defiler casts spell, passes check, doesn't defile the one time it suits him
Altaruk Guard: "Alrighty sir, you may enter. "
Defiler walks past, the guard oblivious to his evil reek and the trail of ash leading into the horizon.
I plan on implementing some kind of system, possibly the one I mentioned, possibly a mix of other things I've seen, to make the above scenario impossible. If you're a defiler, people are going to know it if you're forced to cast in front of them.
"Are you a defiler or a preserver?"
"I dabble."
/facepalm
Also, +1 damage per tier on dailies isn't nearly enough incentive for any of my players to take a feat.
Back to the post: I think I'm a little disappointed with defiling rules, too. I know that the powers that be tried to tweak them from the original campaign to the revisited edition (and props to them!), but things never felt quite comfortable, and initially I question these new rules. Granted, I have not yet played a game, so please correct me if I'm wrong; but is the reroll of a daily power for using Arcane Defiling really enough to describe the addictive rush and pure power that would make defilers out of would-be preservers? I suppose if a devious DM would constantly ask the PC preserver, "hmm, your damage is kind of low. Wanna reroll? or "oh, you missed, wanna try again *wink wink*" things might be kind of interesting. Is that what works for you, or does that get quickly annoying to the PC?
Altaruk: No defiling taint does allow for easy defiler deceptions though, which could add to the intrigue. Maybe the people of Alturuk have come to greatly overemphasize their defenses, which could lead to an interesting adventure: weed out the defiler infiltration. Perhaps the soldiers know the shrubs are a ruse, and secretly tail the would-be infiltrators; maybe the trade opportunities are too good to kill a would-be customer, so the shrubs are merely a warning, and a lurking troupe of soldiers is only used if the defiler casts defiling magic in city limits? On the other hand, perhaps these are psionically enhanced plants that can detect the taint of defiling if a tested character has ever done it even when a preserver spell is cast?
Man, I've missed this stuff.
but is the reroll of a daily power for using Arcane Defiling really enough to describe the addictive rush and pure power that would make defilers out of would-be preservers?
No. It was never intended to be.
The current mechanic is simply that: a mechanic. The roleplaying/fluff and the crunchy mechanics have been separated from each other. For example, the Arcane Defiling does not describe how much plant life is destroyed when a character defiles: why? because it doesn't directly effect the mechanics of the game. But it does effect the surrounding plant-life and players should know that they just destroyed a small part of the world.
There is a fine line between overly-simple and overly-complex... especially when you are catering to a wide variation of experience levels. Some people just want something simple - nothing unbalancing: an extra die-roll every so often. They have enough trouble understanding the post-apocalyptic world around them as is. Some people want every detail, every bit of physics explained for them using a die roll.
If you fall into the former camp, you'll probably want a DM that spends more time explaining the RP and harmful effects of defiling: The defiled ground; The guilt that follows defiling the ground; The 'taint' that follows the character everywhere; The 'addiction' that overcomes the character; The social 'penalty' when interacting with druids, halflings and primal spirits; The access to mysterious and ancient powers used only by the greatest general of ages past; Transformation into one of the most famous and feared monsters of the Dungeons and Dragons universe.
Some of the above ARE actually rules. Some have to be handwaved. Honestly, would you let just anybody choose the Dragon King Epic Destiny?
You can invent a mechanic for each and every option... or you can wing it as needed. I prefer winging it... because it gives me (as a DM) more flexibility to cater to individual player role-playing styles. I personally find that the 4E rule set is flexible and easily customizable.... such that winging it is a perfectly acceptable option.
I suppose if a devious DM would constantly ask the PC preserver, "hmm, your damage is kind of low. Wanna reroll? or "oh, you missed, wanna try again *wink wink*" things might be kind of interesting. Is that what works for you, or does that get quickly annoying to the PC?
Yeah... that's the idea... (assuming it doesn't get annoying)
And can you really write a rule that covers that... or is it more a DMing technique?
I suppose if a devious DM would constantly ask the PC preserver, "hmm, your damage is kind of low. Wanna reroll? or "oh, you missed, wanna try again *wink wink*" things might be kind of interesting. Is that what works for you, or does that get quickly annoying to the PC?
Yeah... that's the idea... (assuming it doesn't get annoying)
And can you really write a rule that covers that... or is it more a DMing technique?
I think a good way to situationally promote or hinder defiling is through the use of terrain. There's some good examples of defiled terrain you can use, which can be created when PCs or NPCs defile. This has a strong earlier edition feel without having to create a barroque additional system. Also, you can go the other way and create terrain which is dangerous to preserve around because it is so life-filled.
Verdant Patch (Single Use Terrain)
No Action
Requirement: You use an arcane spell while adjacent to a square of Verdant Patch.
Check: You may make an Arcana (moderate DC) to avoid defiling. You may choose to automatically fail this check.
Success: No effect.
Failure: You automatically defile and gain the benefits of the Arcane Defiling power.
Rinse and repeat, creating a easy, medium, and hard DC version if you like.
Defiling Taint
Using Arcane Defiling exposes the character to the 'Defiling Taint' disease. As usual, a Saving Throw is made at the end of the encounter to see if the character is 'infected'.
Once infected, each further use of Arcane Defiling advances the Stage by 1. There is a maximum advancement of 1 Stage per encounter.
- Stage 0: Disease ends.
- Stage 1-2: Initial effect.
- Stage 3-4: Character suffers a -1 to all Bluff, Diplomacy and Streetwise checks.
- Stage 5-9: All arcane powers automatically defile and gain +1 to Attack/Damage. Daily attacks automatically trigger Arcane Defiling and increase the Stage by 1.
- Stage 10: Addicted. Character suffers -2 to all Bluff, Diplomacy and Streetwise checks and has some semi-permanent feature indicating defiling addiction (aura, webbed fingers..).
- Check: If in Stage 3-9: At the end of each week without using Arcane Defiling, the target makes a Will check. If in Stage 10 the check is insteady made monthly.
Lower than Moderate DC: No change.
Moderate DC: The stage of the disease decreases by 1.
This makes for something 'addictive' and uses a traditional mechanic(ish). There's also still the chance to 'dabble' early on before going fully down that path. Lastly, I'd prefer a Will check to Arcana since many Arcane builds don't use Int as a primary stat and thus would have a noticeably lower Arcana check (though maybe that fits into the fluff).
As written: at Stage 5 and beyond you're always defiling and you'd effectively have to not use your Daily for a week to get a chance to reduce it. To change that aspect you could just remove the 'Daily attacks automatically trigger Arcane Defiling' part.
Eitherway, jm2c, I've not thought about it too much yet ;)
Mechanically, I'd consider giving:
temporary hitpoint for defiling;
- giving a free Arcane Defiling feat;
- an at-will class power as an encounter one;
- maybe the bonus to attacks, damage and intimidate checks;
- requireing a minor action to preserve till the end of your next turn; or
- allowing Arcane Defiling to be used on Encounter or At-Will powers...
Attaching a small but potentially significant rush for defiling at low-levels, then make it more and more worthwhile to defile (and harder to preserve) as the disease progresses. Also, you can make the disease check an insight check. You may or may not want to allow allies to make an insight or heal check to treat this disease (maybe its a heal check but you must be trained in insight?). You could also increase the DCs if the PC defiles.
It also, of course, only appropriate for games where the PCs are all staunch preserver, or for stories of corruption and redemption. A templar/defiler-centered game doesn't need to give defilers more of a boost.
I really do like this diease idea though, since it brings in a stricter distinction between preservers and defilers. In the 90s, a preserver could defile once per level without becoming a defiler, but had little (mechanical) incentive to actually do so. With a defiling addiction disease like this, it slowly leads the character down a path of isolation and no-return.
Maybe:
Defiling Addiction Variable Level Disease
Those who start down the path of defiling find it difficult to return.
Stage 0: The target recovers from Defiling Addiction.
Stage 1: While afflicted by stage 1, the target gains a +1 to damage per tier and +1 bonus to hit with all arcane attacks that defile.
Stage 2: In addition to the benefits and penalties of previous stages, the target may select one at-will attack power from its class that the target doesn't know. That power may be used as an encounter power and the target may apply Arcane Defiling when using that power.
Stage 3: The target may not choose to preserve normally, and gains a +2 bonus to intimidate checks and the bonus to damage increases to 2 per tier in addition to the benefits of previous stages. By spending a minor action, the target may preserve until the end of its next turn.
Stage 4: The target suffers a -2 penalty to all bluff and diplomacy checks, and gains one free Arcane Defiling feat in addition to the benefits and penalties of previous stages.
Stage 5: The target may not preserve, and no longer makes disease checks.
Check: At the end of each extended rest, the target makes an Insight (not Endurance) check if it is at stage 1 or 2.
Lower than Easy DC: The stage of the disease increases by 1.
Easy DC: No change.
Moderate DC: The stage of the disease decreased by 1.
Special: If the target has defiled since the last extended rest, the DCs for the check are all more difficult (Easy to Moderate, Moderate to Hard). Targets who defile may voluntarily fail this check and increase the stage with each extended rest in which they have defiled. Allies wishing to treat this disease must be trained in Heal but make Insight, rather than Heal, checks.
First of all my objections to the current system:
1) The choice is made after an attempt. Surely it's at the point of summoning the energy to make the attempt that the decision needs to be made?
2) It drains creatures, and only allies at that. As it was in the original versions basic arcane defiling only drained plants. To drain creatures you needed either a magic item for that purpose or Dragon magic, a fusion of arcane and psionic power focused through obsidian.
3) There's nothing in the rules to stop someone defiling the same area repeatedly, when I would have thought once or twice would destroy all the plants and drain the energy.
With these objections in mind, and not wanting anything that requires too much long term bookkeeping, I've been discussing the following option with my prospective players, codifying it into the bonus to be gained and the price to pay:
Bonus - Gain +X to an attack or damage roll with a daily arcane power, chosen before making the roll.
Price - A zone of defiled terrain is created in a close burst Y around the character, turning the plant life to ash. Until at least the end of the encounter (and it should be longer) no arcane powers can be used whilst within this zone.
We're still trying to figure out the values for X and Y, but I'm currently leaning towards 4 and 5 respectively. I want it to be a powerful boost, but one that's not appealing to use except perhaps in dire situations.
I was going to allow it for encounter powers as well, but one of my players suggested that the daily powers are the really big ones that would drain a lot of power. You could probably cast Magic Missile over and over again before any real damage was done to the surrounding plant life.
One possible argument against it I foresee is that it can effectively shut down an enemy using arcane powers as well, but I'm not sure there are too many of those in the setting besides Veiled Alliance members or agents of the Sorcerer-Kings and if you defile a large space in front of them you're going to have a lot of problems in store for you anyway.
Anyone have any thoughts they can share with me on this?
In my game, a defiler always defile. I ruled out that defiling with a daily doesn't actually mean the use the arcane defiling feature. Defiling on dailies then works as defiling on at-will and encounter (no damage on ally + leach life from plant in close burst 1).
I use arcane defiling as a more powerfull life leach, some kind of boost that defilers have access to. By draining more life from their surrounding, their spells become more potent.
Defile at your peril...power beyond imagine, penalties beyond endurance...
we have this problem in my game as well, the current arcane defiling just doesn;t sit well with any of us, its drawbacks far outway the benefits. were currently toying around with the idea of arcane defiling doing the casters surge value in dmg to EVERYONE in the area, not just allies. and the radius is a bit to high as well so heres what we have for it
arcane defiling: encounter* arcane*necrotic
minor action Burst 1*( area increases by lvl)
Primary ability vs. fort( gain a bonus to this attack role is the terrain is lush DM's descretion)
effect: all arcane encounters and daily powers gain a +1 attack and +1 damage dice for every character affected by the defiling till the end of the encounter. an area of 1 square per lvl of the power is also considered defiled terrain. also each enemy and ally within 1 square per level of the spell are affected by the defilement and take the caster's surge value in necrotic damage each time an encounter or daily spell is used. for spells that don;t deal damage, the caster can increase the effected numbers( such as squares the target is pushed/pulled/slide etc.)or apply a penalty to saving throws equal to the number of targets that were affected by the arcane defilement
special* cannot be used in terrain that is already defiled
for example a 5th lvl wizard using arcane defiling on a 5th lvl daily attack fireball would effect a burst 5 area, and each person in the radius would take his healing surge value in necrotic damage( lets say 3 mobs in this example) he would gain a +3 on attack roles and the fireball would do 6d6+int dmg
let me know what you guys think. it seems a bit overpowered but i think with the attack role used in the initial defiling check help out alot so that the poor minions aren;t just laid waste to automaticly. also the land IS defiled so that this ability can;t be used in this area again. please by all means give me some feedback
thanks