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Arcane magic in Dark Sun

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
savagedetective82
Aug 17, 2009 18:52:11 So many different places where preserving, defiling and the use of the new arcane classes in Dark Sun keep popping up - thought a single thread might be a good place for people to speculate.

A few thoughts for my part. Arcane magic in Dark Sun originally came only from the land. It is, unlike in other worlds, the very life-force of Athas drawn on and used for spells. The revised campaign setting's sourcebooks added Shadow Wizards and Necromancers, who drew not on the land but on the Black and the Grey respectively (there is also one Sun Wizard, Sadira of Tyr).

From a game mechanics point of view, the Black and the Grey would probably make most sense as sorcerer power sources, replacing those from the core books.

Personally, as for defiling and preserving, I think they're best done up as wizard builds. The point of defiling is that its a quick, careless way to power. It might gives +2 to initiative rolls, +1 to damage, etc. Defiling's damage of the surroundings could then be modified by feats - penalties to the intiative of foes within the defiling radius, etc. Preserving could similar benefits - an additional utility spell for drawing power for spells while resting, etc.

I think player's ought to be able to play defilers as well as preservers. The novels are full of morally shady characters. Sometimes preservers have crossed the line and defiled in situations where they needed the power quickly. The elves of Athas have both preservers and defilers in their clans and generally don't care which they are - it's a path to power, nothing else.

One of the biggest faults of 4th edition is its inability to incorporate the intangibles, so to speak, into the rules. In a world where using magic will get you killed by anyone who sees you, making a big circle of ash by casting spells is a major disadvantage. And these intangibles also explain the difficulty with adding sword-mages, artificers, warlocks, and bards. Arcane magic is very rare. It is very dangerous. It needs to draw on the land for power. It is hard to learn, and demonstrating arcane ability openly will usually get you killed. All arcane magic (with the exception of spells drawn from the Black and the Grey, which were also supposed to be very specific types of magic) draws on the land for power, which is a visible phenomenon in Athas. Arcane magic has pretty much destroyed the world, turned the sun dark, burnt the land, and turned whole populations into slaves.

A proliferation of arcane classes and ways of drawing power other than from the land waters down the whole tone of the setting. Being a character who makes little arcane machines and potions right and left simply doesn't work in a world where some wizards tattoo their spellbooks on their bodies and hide it under clothing while fleeing the wrath of the sorcerer-kings, witch-hunting citizens and other wizards. While bards and sword-mages could probably fit into the preserving/defiling scheme (not without difficulty, concept-wise), warlocks break the mold with an alternate power source and artificers with a nearly unworkable concept for Dark Sun.

I do think you can and should allow warlocks or artificers in, but they'd need to be figures like Sadira the Sun Wizard, truly unique individuals. Otherwise preserving and defiling and the very nature of magic in Dark Sun becomes a moot point.
#2
terminus_vortexa
Aug 17, 2009 22:28:35 If one reads the old 2e materials very carefully, all power sources and pact possibilities are possible and accounted for. Dark powers from the lower planes have a monopoly on Living Conduits between their realms and Athas.I guess in 4e they'd originate in the Astral Sea, specifically the Nine Hells and the realms of evil deities. Spirits of the Land are present, and are very powerful Fey who are known to sponsor Druids on Athas, could grant the Fey pact. Fiendish pacts could potentially be granted by fiends present on Athas(they are indeed present there, from various sources), of from divine allies of the fiends, through their living conduits. The Far Realm is probably an unaccounted for yet very present threat to Athas,its insanity may be inferred as having something to do with the corruption of Rajaat and could very well be the force that inflicted cmplete insanity upon Daskinor of Eldaarich. Given the abundance of psionics present on Athas, the Far Realm would probably hve many eyes on this tiny brown world. Elementals have been sponsoring clerics for ages, and the SKs grant divine power siphoned from the Elemental Planes, counted as a Divine, not Elemental, source of power. An SK could most likely emower specialized weilders of this power, Warlocks included.
#3
phoenix_m
Aug 17, 2009 22:59:39 With all the talk of separating the Defiler and the Preserver, one of mechanics from another WotC game keeps coming to mind; Star Wars Dark Side Points. Now I'm not sure just how different SW Saga is from 4th edition but SW Revised and D&D 3.5 were fully cross compatible.
#4
terminus_vortexa
Aug 17, 2009 23:07:04 A point system for defiling in 3.5 has been presented a few times, and always seemed to work well.
#5
branotheblades
Aug 17, 2009 23:27:47 I'm not sure how WotC will handle arcane magic on Athas. I've argued several conflicting arguments in my head. (does that make me schizophrenic? or maybe just a one man adventuring party. or better yet, a tribe of one) Anyway...

With the distinct roles that each class now fills, (defender, leader, controller, striker) I'm not sure that WotC will limit arcane classes to 1 or 2 roles. Arcane magic is arcane magic. Sure there are different ways of casting it and multiple sources or conduits of it, but as a whole it is Arcane magic. Just for arguments sake say there are Shadow pact warlocks on Athas. The warlocks gain their ability to cast arcane magic from a denizen of the black. They are still casting ARCANE magic and it will draw power from the land just as a wizards does. If they drew power from the denizen of the black itself it would be DIVINE magic. (at least that's how I see it) The pact allows them to be invested with the ability to use arcane magic. A wizard learns spells that allow him/her to manipulate arcane magic. A sorceror has an innate ability to manipulate arcane magic. The whole preserver/defiler slant should affect ALL arcane magic.

There will probably be classes that won't be represented on Athas. Athas is a very exclusive world. Not everybody gets to play in THIS sandbox. However, I think the mechanic that represents preserver/defiler will be one that could be applied to any arcane class. Swordmages probably won't exist on Athas. However, I don't think it stretches the imagination too much for a PC to be able to play one and have to face being responsible or gain power quickly and easily. The "bard" may not exist as it does in the core world. There may be a rogue build that encompasses the Athasian bard. Artificers probably aren't a good fit for Athas but I seem to remember that Athas had equivalents to potions such as fruits or nuts. So I guess its possible you could make one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 savagedetective82 Aug 17, 2009 18:52:11	So many different places where preserving, defiling and the use of the new arcane classes in Dark Sun keep popping up - thought a single thread might be a good place for people to speculate. A few thoughts for my part. Arcane magic in Dark Sun originally came only from the land. It is, unlike in other worlds, the very life-force of Athas drawn on and used for spells. The revised campaign setting's sourcebooks added Shadow Wizards and Necromancers, who drew not on the land but on the Black and the Grey respectively (there is also one Sun Wizard, Sadira of Tyr). From a game mechanics point of view, the Black and the Grey would probably make most sense as sorcerer power sources, replacing those from the core books. Personally, as for defiling and preserving, I think they're best done up as wizard builds. The point of defiling is that its a quick, careless way to power. It might gives +2 to initiative rolls, +1 to damage, etc. Defiling's damage of the surroundings could then be modified by feats - penalties to the intiative of foes within the defiling radius, etc. Preserving could similar benefits - an additional utility spell for drawing power for spells while resting, etc. I think player's ought to be able to play defilers as well as preservers. The novels are full of morally shady characters. Sometimes preservers have crossed the line and defiled in situations where they needed the power quickly. The elves of Athas have both preservers and defilers in their clans and generally don't care which they are - it's a path to power, nothing else. One of the biggest faults of 4th edition is its inability to incorporate the intangibles, so to speak, into the rules. In a world where using magic will get you killed by anyone who sees you, making a big circle of ash by casting spells is a major disadvantage. And these intangibles also explain the difficulty with adding sword-mages, artificers, warlocks, and bards. Arcane magic is very rare. It is very dangerous. It needs to draw on the land for power. It is hard to learn, and demonstrating arcane ability openly will usually get you killed. All arcane magic (with the exception of spells drawn from the Black and the Grey, which were also supposed to be very specific types of magic) draws on the land for power, which is a visible phenomenon in Athas. Arcane magic has pretty much destroyed the world, turned the sun dark, burnt the land, and turned whole populations into slaves. A proliferation of arcane classes and ways of drawing power other than from the land waters down the whole tone of the setting. Being a character who makes little arcane machines and potions right and left simply doesn't work in a world where some wizards tattoo their spellbooks on their bodies and hide it under clothing while fleeing the wrath of the sorcerer-kings, witch-hunting citizens and other wizards. While bards and sword-mages could probably fit into the preserving/defiling scheme (not without difficulty, concept-wise), warlocks break the mold with an alternate power source and artificers with a nearly unworkable concept for Dark Sun. I do think you can and should allow warlocks or artificers in, but they'd need to be figures like Sadira the Sun Wizard, truly unique individuals. Otherwise preserving and defiling and the very nature of magic in Dark Sun becomes a moot point.
#2 terminus_vortexa Aug 17, 2009 22:28:35	If one reads the old 2e materials very carefully, all power sources and pact possibilities are possible and accounted for. Dark powers from the lower planes have a monopoly on Living Conduits between their realms and Athas.I guess in 4e they'd originate in the Astral Sea, specifically the Nine Hells and the realms of evil deities. Spirits of the Land are present, and are very powerful Fey who are known to sponsor Druids on Athas, could grant the Fey pact. Fiendish pacts could potentially be granted by fiends present on Athas(they are indeed present there, from various sources), of from divine allies of the fiends, through their living conduits. The Far Realm is probably an unaccounted for yet very present threat to Athas,its insanity may be inferred as having something to do with the corruption of Rajaat and could very well be the force that inflicted cmplete insanity upon Daskinor of Eldaarich. Given the abundance of psionics present on Athas, the Far Realm would probably hve many eyes on this tiny brown world. Elementals have been sponsoring clerics for ages, and the SKs grant divine power siphoned from the Elemental Planes, counted as a Divine, not Elemental, source of power. An SK could most likely emower specialized weilders of this power, Warlocks included.
#3 phoenix_m Aug 17, 2009 22:59:39	With all the talk of separating the Defiler and the Preserver, one of mechanics from another WotC game keeps coming to mind; Star Wars Dark Side Points. Now I'm not sure just how different SW Saga is from 4th edition but SW Revised and D&D 3.5 were fully cross compatible.
#4 terminus_vortexa Aug 17, 2009 23:07:04	A point system for defiling in 3.5 has been presented a few times, and always seemed to work well.
#5 branotheblades Aug 17, 2009 23:27:47	I'm not sure how WotC will handle arcane magic on Athas. I've argued several conflicting arguments in my head. (does that make me schizophrenic? or maybe just a one man adventuring party. or better yet, a tribe of one) Anyway... With the distinct roles that each class now fills, (defender, leader, controller, striker) I'm not sure that WotC will limit arcane classes to 1 or 2 roles. Arcane magic is arcane magic. Sure there are different ways of casting it and multiple sources or conduits of it, but as a whole it is Arcane magic. Just for arguments sake say there are Shadow pact warlocks on Athas. The warlocks gain their ability to cast arcane magic from a denizen of the black. They are still casting ARCANE magic and it will draw power from the land just as a wizards does. If they drew power from the denizen of the black itself it would be DIVINE magic. (at least that's how I see it) The pact allows them to be invested with the ability to use arcane magic. A wizard learns spells that allow him/her to manipulate arcane magic. A sorceror has an innate ability to manipulate arcane magic. The whole preserver/defiler slant should affect ALL arcane magic. There will probably be classes that won't be represented on Athas. Athas is a very exclusive world. Not everybody gets to play in THIS sandbox. However, I think the mechanic that represents preserver/defiler will be one that could be applied to any arcane class. Swordmages probably won't exist on Athas. However, I don't think it stretches the imagination too much for a PC to be able to play one and have to face being responsible or gain power quickly and easily. The "bard" may not exist as it does in the core world. There may be a rogue build that encompasses the Athasian bard. Artificers probably aren't a good fit for Athas but I seem to remember that Athas had equivalents to potions such as fruits or nuts. So I guess its possible you could make one.