So will Dark Sun 4E encounters be mostly on the surface?
I've read some of the original material so far. There are mentions of caravan raids, desert ambushes, and lots of descriptions of the surface. Sometimes ruins are mentioned, but no dungeons. The lack of metal would make digging hard and then only for materials like obsidian.
So will Dark Sun 4E encounters be mostly on the surface?
Probably also the ruins in the area, which basically serve as dungeons in many ways.
It's rather hard to adventure in Dark Sun. If you met up in a travern, you might get robbed or drugged. The map you bought that leads to the Dungeon from the Elf is probably fake. Just travelling to the Dungeon is to risk death if you don't have enough water or your get lost. Any monsters you encounter would probably kill you. If you did managed to find a dungeon and survive, any loot you had might be stolen (if your other PCs didn't stab you in the back and take the loot. If a Templar found out you had loot, he'd confescate it and sell you into slavery.
But a few dungeon delve areas are:
Any and every city-state sewer or underground reservoir.
The buried ruins of ancient city-states. ( bodach comes to mind as does guistenal)
Subterranean smuggler mountain- hideouts and caches.
Natural subterranean caverns inhabited by whatever you want.
And you could also include:
Ancient buried halfling ruins in the endless sand dunes. (something I'm currently working on)
Buried cleansing war strongholds.
A subterranean sanctuary under dragons bowl. (secret underwater passage through lakepit)
Lost city of plot device (atlantis) somewhere at the bottom of the sea of silt. (living city-creature?)
"RootCity" in the forest ridge. (an entire civilization built into the massive roots of ancient trees)
Insert limitless additions here.
We all need some dungeons now and then. Hopefully their integration in the setting will be more realistic than previous attempts.
Of course there are dungeons in DS. Its just the Sand has well and truly buried most of them. So getting access could be an issue. This is why Sandstorms are there ! 
Also Id definetly class the undercity of most Citys (Tyr has a fairly notorious undercity) as a Dungeon. They are infested with escaped former arena 'beasts'. creatures that lair in such environs as well as gangs avoiding the law and finally creatures that a Sorc king has 'created' then got bored with.
If a place like Undermountain existed in FR, it would definetly be extremely hostile.
I'd say there are plenty of dungeons, but as was said earlier, DS isn't necessarily the kind of setting where you wander off into the wilderness hoping to find the ancient fortress of Lord Whatshisbutt. When I run my DS game, dungeons will be present, and mined for plot devices, but probably not on the scale of a Realms game
Besides, nothing says, "let's go into that dungeon" better than a lethal sandstorm breathing down the back of your chitin shoulderplates.
- Many of the most well known sentient evil races of FR (Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, Gnolls, etc...) are extinct (or at least extremely rare). This was done on purpose. Thus, evil sentient strongholds and fortresses are more rare.
- Monsters on Athas are less social, less altruistic. They don't tend to share living spaces - like dungeons. They'd be murdering each other in their sleep for food. The world is more "savage", remember?
- Resources: unless a dungeon "happens" to be situated in a "perfect" location with food, water and shelter, the creatures would have to go elsewhere for sustenance.
- The lack of Gods means that there's one less reason for evil creatures to work towards a common goal.
- No underdark. No Feywilds. No Shadowrealm. No Astral Planes. Althought, there are alternative themes, like the Black and the Elemental Chaos.
- No metal means no reason for mining. Dwarves, for this reason, are not really known for mining in Dark Sun.
At the end of the day... there are so many other cool places to explore on the outside without having to delve deep into caves. Wild Forests, Silt Islands, City Ruins, Obsidian Plains, ...
1. But hose races existed. So at least some ruins made by Orcs and Trolls exist.
2. Raiders, slave tribes, tribe of cannibales, defilers and minions, yuan-ti, giths, elemental cult, necromancers, githyanki group, elven tribes, awaken Lifebender and experiments, awaken ex-Cleansing War general that still thinks the war is going on, Shadow giants, etc.
3.Oasis, underground water source, they send hunters/raiders everyday out to surch for food water. Maybe this is how the PCs found the way to the dungeon, by fallowing some hunter back to is base. Also clerics have vreate water/food, undead do not eat... like us anyway.
4. They work for food and water, a few ceramic pieces, false god cults, elemental god cults, primal forces cults, they are charmed, they are forced, raiding in group, some artifact of the past his controlling them all, etc.
5. Are all those planes really gone?
6. But metal was a bit more commun in the past, so mines do exist. And so did a tunnel system that looked likea psionic powered subway. The earth can be filled wit hole from all the stones Lifeshapers used to make living tools.
I guess I stand corrected... except for the underground psionic subway thingy. Psionic subways...
I remember something close to a psionic powered subway of sorts.
I am wrong?
I just refuse to admit that there existed Psionic powered subways anywhere. But that's just me.
Course that was at the end of Dark Sun's life and I always felt they were jumping the shark as to try and attract a larger audience. While I liked the idea of the Blue Age technology it always felt like something out of the movie "Waterworld."
Anyways, back to topic, dungeons are always nice for a break in the monotony of it all and there isn't anything in 2ed Athas that says "Dungeons don't exist" but Dark Sun is so much more than a Dungeon-crawl setting.
3.Oasis, underground water source, they send hunters/raiders everyday out to surch for food water. Maybe this is how the PCs found the way to the dungeon, by fallowing some hunter back to is base. Also clerics have vreate water/food, undead do not eat... like us anyway.
Its funny, because the first thing that came to mind when I saw this thread was ideas for dungeon type adventures in Atahs and the very first one I thought of was having some piddly ancient cistern in an old fortress or some tiny pool in the back of a cave and the PCs being tasked to claim it (or having to claim it for their own survival) from whatever creatures currently own it.
5. Are all those planes really gone?
I seem to recall someone in some article talking about something being 'wrong' with Athas' feywild. Which implies that the Feywild at least, is not gone. And I don't think its unreasonable to assume that if there is still a Feywild, there is still a Shadowfell. Sadly, I can't recall where I read the thing about Athas' Feywild, though.
I seem to recall someone in some article talking about something being 'wrong' with Athas' feywild. Which implies that the Feywild at least, is not gone. And I don't think its unreasonable to assume that if there is still a Feywild, there is still a Shadowfell. Sadly, I can't recall where I read the thing about Athas' Feywild, though.
It was the blog post describing the Eladrin of Dark Sun.
They players are drinking at a pub when Templar show up and order them to come with him to great an evil "Preserver" in his lair. He's got all the neccessary provisions. The Templar says he's just and will pay the players one CP for their troubles.
Here's what the players can do
1. Refuse the Templar and end up in the Arena.
2. Agree and tag along; if they defeat the Preserver and the Templar doesn't kill them, they get their one CP.
3. The PC's kill the Templar and his minions and take any treasure they had on them.
4. The PC's kill the Templar and join the Preserver. Same as #3.
5. The PC's kill the Templar after they slay the Preserver and take the Templar's and Preserver's loot.
6. The PC's die through the course of the adventure.
You were hurt at some point by pionics. I can feel the pain.
Tell me were the psion touched you.
Oh, G*d damn it! My friend just told me he wanted to play a Psion in Bloodstain arena, and now I'm thinking inappropriate thoughts and laughing. Damn it!
I can't quite tell if you're joking, Ral. Maybe you should rename yourself OneCeramicMan.
It's been awhile since I've played and I'm not too familar with the Athasian economic system; 1cp is rather generous on the part of the Templar as serving him is part of their patriotic duty!!!
No underdark...
This got me thinking, why not have an Athasian Underdark? It would have to be very different than the standard setting, no Drow, no Mind flayers, no Aboleths. Perhaps there was a more typical Underdark during the Green Age, but they would have all died out, but nature abhors a vacuum, so who or what took their place? Perhaps Nibenay didn't kill all the Gnomes, perhaps some escaped to the Underdark, but they fell under the influence of ancient relics of those lost civilizations, and now are something different, something dark, twisted, and evil...
I suppose it's not as bad as Shadowdark, but man...
No underdark...
This got me thinking, why not have an Athasian Underdark? It would have to be very different than the standard setting, no Drow, no Mind flayers, no Aboleths. Perhaps there was a more typical Underdark during the Green Age, but they would have all died out, but nature abhors a vacuum, so who or what took their place? Perhaps Nibenay didn't kill all the Gnomes, perhaps some escaped to the Underdark, but they fell under the influence of ancient relics of those lost civilizations, and now are something different, something dark, twisted, and evil...
Athasian Redcaps.
This got me thinking, why not have an Athasian Underdark? It would have to be very different than the standard setting, no Drow, no Mind flayers, no Aboleths. Perhaps there was a more typical Underdark during the Green Age, but they would have all died out, but nature abhors a vacuum, so who or what took their place? Perhaps Nibenay didn't kill all the Gnomes, perhaps some escaped to the Underdark, but they fell under the influence of ancient relics of those lost civilizations, and now are something different, something dark, twisted, and evil...
It could happen. I'd mess it up quite a bit... otherwise, again, go play FR. Getting rid of the Droy, Mine Layers, Abooleaths, is okay. More is required to make it "athasian" though, I believe.
A lot of people have mentioned that the underdark of Athas would be a cool reprieve from the unrelenting Dark Sun. I say "no". While the Underdark is under the ground, I would like to propose another idea: the "crust" of Athas is very thin, with a powerful and hot molten core. The underdark near the surface are slightly cooler than the outside because of the shade that it provides. As one proceeds further down (and not much of a distance), pools and viens of molten hot lava light up the underdark, providing both light and heat. Quickly, the underdark becomes an oven.
Survival is, once again, difficult. Even creatures native to the molten caverns struggle to find pockets of clean air, fresh water and food.
I think the opposite; the Athasian Underdark is a paradise. It has cooler temeratures, protection from the sun and abundant water.
Hmm... that's and interesting idea too. Mind Flayers playing lutes with flowers in their hair?
A lot of people have mentioned that the underdark of Athas would be a cool reprieve from the unrelenting Dark Sun. I say "no". While the Underdark is under the ground, I would like to propose another idea: the "crust" of Athas is very thin, with a powerful and hot molten core. The underdark near the surface are slightly cooler than the outside because of the shade that it provides. As one proceeds further down (and not much of a distance), pools and viens of molten hot lava light up the underdark, providing both light and heat. Quickly, the underdark becomes an oven.
Survival is, once again, difficult. Even creatures native to the molten caverns struggle to find pockets of clean air, fresh water and food.
That would explain the Lake of Golden Dreams nicely.
I think the opposite; the Athasian Underdark is a paradise. It has cooler temeratures, protection from the sun and abundant water.
And everyone hasn't moved down there because...?
Tell me were the psion touched you.
My basal ganglia hurts.
And everyone hasn't moved down there because...?
Because the Underdark doesn't exist in Dark Sun; just like on Earth.
Sure, there are caves and such, but no vast network of tunnels and caves; do you think a Champion, not matter how good, could exterminate all the Goblins if Athasian Goblins lived underground? There's so many hidding places that Dasknor would have had to litterally over turn the soil of Athas to find them.
On another note, finding that Goblins, Trolls and Orcs didn't go extinct would be a great adventure. Instead of risking extermination, they simple retreated into the Underdark where the Champions couldn't go.
I suppose, a standard D&D game is how the Champions operated; go into a Dungeon and kill and the Goblins, Orcs etc.
I think the opposite; the Athasian Underdark is a paradise. It has cooler temeratures, protection from the sun and abundant water.
That's exactly what my athasian underdark is. Although replace forests of trees, with forests of fungus.
I think the opposite; the Athasian Underdark is a paradise. It has cooler temeratures, protection from the sun and abundant water.
And everyone hasn't moved down there because...?
Because they don't know about it, and it's occupied by "people" who know how to keep their homes hidden, by normal and magical means.
Because the Underdark doesn't exist in Dark Sun; just like on Earth.
Says who? If I found an underground paradise, I wouldn't walk around telling everyone.
Sure, there are caves and such, but no vast network of tunnels and caves; do you think a Champion, not matter how good, could exterminate all the Goblins if Athasian Goblins lived underground? There's so many hidding places that Dasknor would have had to litterally over turn the soil of Athas to find them.
Who says he did? Sorcerer kings lie and survivors know how to survive. Every resource of athasian information we have is filled with inconsistencies, contradictions and outright lies. Believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you see, sort of thing.
We also have no idea what is deep underground, since there isn't any info on it and if there is, it's subject to the same suspicion. Is this information false, is someone lying to hide a secret? Ultimately, it's up to the DM.
I've read some of the original material so far. There are mentions of caravan raids, desert ambushes, and lots of descriptions of the surface. Sometimes ruins are mentioned, but no dungeons. The lack of metal would make digging hard and then only for materials like obsidian.
So will Dark Sun 4E encounters be mostly on the surface?
Probably also the ruins in the area, which basically serve as dungeons in many ways.
It's rather hard to adventure in Dark Sun. If you met up in a travern, you might get robbed or drugged. The map you bought that leads to the Dungeon from the Elf is probably fake. Just travelling to the Dungeon is to risk death if you don't have enough water or your get lost. Any monsters you encounter would probably kill you. If you did managed to find a dungeon and survive, any loot you had might be stolen (if your other PCs didn't stab you in the back and take the loot. If a Templar found out you had loot, he'd confescate it and sell you into slavery.
But a few dungeon delve areas are:
Any and every city-state sewer or underground reservoir.
The buried ruins of ancient city-states. ( bodach comes to mind as does guistenal)
Subterranean smuggler mountain- hideouts and caches.
Natural subterranean caverns inhabited by whatever you want.
And you could also include:
Ancient buried halfling ruins in the endless sand dunes. (something I'm currently working on)
Buried cleansing war strongholds.
A subterranean sanctuary under dragons bowl. (secret underwater passage through lakepit)
Lost city of plot device (atlantis) somewhere at the bottom of the sea of silt. (living city-creature?)
"RootCity" in the forest ridge. (an entire civilization built into the massive roots of ancient trees)
Insert limitless additions here.
We all need some dungeons now and then. Hopefully their integration in the setting will be more realistic than previous attempts.
Of course there are dungeons in DS. Its just the Sand has well and truly buried most of them. So getting access could be an issue. This is why Sandstorms are there !
Also Id definetly class the undercity of most Citys (Tyr has a fairly notorious undercity) as a Dungeon. They are infested with escaped former arena 'beasts'. creatures that lair in such environs as well as gangs avoiding the law and finally creatures that a Sorc king has 'created' then got bored with.
If a place like Undermountain existed in FR, it would definetly be extremely hostile.
I'd say there are plenty of dungeons, but as was said earlier, DS isn't necessarily the kind of setting where you wander off into the wilderness hoping to find the ancient fortress of Lord Whatshisbutt. When I run my DS game, dungeons will be present, and mined for plot devices, but probably not on the scale of a Realms game
Besides, nothing says, "let's go into that dungeon" better than a lethal sandstorm breathing down the back of your chitin shoulderplates.
- Many of the most well known sentient evil races of FR (Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, Gnolls, etc...) are extinct (or at least extremely rare). This was done on purpose. Thus, evil sentient strongholds and fortresses are more rare.
- Monsters on Athas are less social, less altruistic. They don't tend to share living spaces - like dungeons. They'd be murdering each other in their sleep for food. The world is more "savage", remember?
- Resources: unless a dungeon "happens" to be situated in a "perfect" location with food, water and shelter, the creatures would have to go elsewhere for sustenance.
- The lack of Gods means that there's one less reason for evil creatures to work towards a common goal.
- No underdark. No Feywilds. No Shadowrealm. No Astral Planes. Althought, there are alternative themes, like the Black and the Elemental Chaos.
- No metal means no reason for mining. Dwarves, for this reason, are not really known for mining in Dark Sun.
At the end of the day... there are so many other cool places to explore on the outside without having to delve deep into caves. Wild Forests, Silt Islands, City Ruins, Obsidian Plains, ...
1. But hose races existed. So at least some ruins made by Orcs and Trolls exist.
2. Raiders, slave tribes, tribe of cannibales, defilers and minions, yuan-ti, giths, elemental cult, necromancers, githyanki group, elven tribes, awaken Lifebender and experiments, awaken ex-Cleansing War general that still thinks the war is going on, Shadow giants, etc.
3.Oasis, underground water source, they send hunters/raiders everyday out to surch for food water. Maybe this is how the PCs found the way to the dungeon, by fallowing some hunter back to is base. Also clerics have vreate water/food, undead do not eat... like us anyway.
4. They work for food and water, a few ceramic pieces, false god cults, elemental god cults, primal forces cults, they are charmed, they are forced, raiding in group, some artifact of the past his controlling them all, etc.
5. Are all those planes really gone?
6. But metal was a bit more commun in the past, so mines do exist. And so did a tunnel system that looked likea psionic powered subway. The earth can be filled wit hole from all the stones Lifeshapers used to make living tools.
I guess I stand corrected... except for the underground psionic subway thingy. Psionic subways...
I remember something close to a psionic powered subway of sorts.
I am wrong?
I just refuse to admit that there existed Psionic powered subways anywhere. But that's just me.
Course that was at the end of Dark Sun's life and I always felt they were jumping the shark as to try and attract a larger audience. While I liked the idea of the Blue Age technology it always felt like something out of the movie "Waterworld."
Anyways, back to topic, dungeons are always nice for a break in the monotony of it all and there isn't anything in 2ed Athas that says "Dungeons don't exist" but Dark Sun is so much more than a Dungeon-crawl setting.
3.Oasis, underground water source, they send hunters/raiders everyday out to surch for food water. Maybe this is how the PCs found the way to the dungeon, by fallowing some hunter back to is base. Also clerics have vreate water/food, undead do not eat... like us anyway.
Its funny, because the first thing that came to mind when I saw this thread was ideas for dungeon type adventures in Atahs and the very first one I thought of was having some piddly ancient cistern in an old fortress or some tiny pool in the back of a cave and the PCs being tasked to claim it (or having to claim it for their own survival) from whatever creatures currently own it.
5. Are all those planes really gone?
I seem to recall someone in some article talking about something being 'wrong' with Athas' feywild. Which implies that the Feywild at least, is not gone. And I don't think its unreasonable to assume that if there is still a Feywild, there is still a Shadowfell. Sadly, I can't recall where I read the thing about Athas' Feywild, though.
I seem to recall someone in some article talking about something being 'wrong' with Athas' feywild. Which implies that the Feywild at least, is not gone. And I don't think its unreasonable to assume that if there is still a Feywild, there is still a Shadowfell. Sadly, I can't recall where I read the thing about Athas' Feywild, though.
It was the blog post describing the Eladrin of Dark Sun.
They players are drinking at a pub when Templar show up and order them to come with him to great an evil "Preserver" in his lair. He's got all the neccessary provisions. The Templar says he's just and will pay the players one CP for their troubles.
Here's what the players can do
1. Refuse the Templar and end up in the Arena.
2. Agree and tag along; if they defeat the Preserver and the Templar doesn't kill them, they get their one CP.
3. The PC's kill the Templar and his minions and take any treasure they had on them.
4. The PC's kill the Templar and join the Preserver. Same as #3.
5. The PC's kill the Templar after they slay the Preserver and take the Templar's and Preserver's loot.
6. The PC's die through the course of the adventure.
You were hurt at some point by pionics. I can feel the pain.
Tell me were the psion touched you.
Oh, G*d damn it! My friend just told me he wanted to play a Psion in Bloodstain arena, and now I'm thinking inappropriate thoughts and laughing. Damn it!
I can't quite tell if you're joking, Ral. Maybe you should rename yourself OneCeramicMan.
It's been awhile since I've played and I'm not too familar with the Athasian economic system; 1cp is rather generous on the part of the Templar as serving him is part of their patriotic duty!!!
No underdark...
This got me thinking, why not have an Athasian Underdark? It would have to be very different than the standard setting, no Drow, no Mind flayers, no Aboleths. Perhaps there was a more typical Underdark during the Green Age, but they would have all died out, but nature abhors a vacuum, so who or what took their place? Perhaps Nibenay didn't kill all the Gnomes, perhaps some escaped to the Underdark, but they fell under the influence of ancient relics of those lost civilizations, and now are something different, something dark, twisted, and evil...
I suppose it's not as bad as Shadowdark, but man...
No underdark...
This got me thinking, why not have an Athasian Underdark? It would have to be very different than the standard setting, no Drow, no Mind flayers, no Aboleths. Perhaps there was a more typical Underdark during the Green Age, but they would have all died out, but nature abhors a vacuum, so who or what took their place? Perhaps Nibenay didn't kill all the Gnomes, perhaps some escaped to the Underdark, but they fell under the influence of ancient relics of those lost civilizations, and now are something different, something dark, twisted, and evil...
Athasian Redcaps.
This got me thinking, why not have an Athasian Underdark? It would have to be very different than the standard setting, no Drow, no Mind flayers, no Aboleths. Perhaps there was a more typical Underdark during the Green Age, but they would have all died out, but nature abhors a vacuum, so who or what took their place? Perhaps Nibenay didn't kill all the Gnomes, perhaps some escaped to the Underdark, but they fell under the influence of ancient relics of those lost civilizations, and now are something different, something dark, twisted, and evil...
It could happen. I'd mess it up quite a bit... otherwise, again, go play FR. Getting rid of the Droy, Mine Layers, Abooleaths, is okay. More is required to make it "athasian" though, I believe.
A lot of people have mentioned that the underdark of Athas would be a cool reprieve from the unrelenting Dark Sun. I say "no". While the Underdark is under the ground, I would like to propose another idea: the "crust" of Athas is very thin, with a powerful and hot molten core. The underdark near the surface are slightly cooler than the outside because of the shade that it provides. As one proceeds further down (and not much of a distance), pools and viens of molten hot lava light up the underdark, providing both light and heat. Quickly, the underdark becomes an oven.
Survival is, once again, difficult. Even creatures native to the molten caverns struggle to find pockets of clean air, fresh water and food.
I think the opposite; the Athasian Underdark is a paradise. It has cooler temeratures, protection from the sun and abundant water.
Hmm... that's and interesting idea too. Mind Flayers playing lutes with flowers in their hair?
A lot of people have mentioned that the underdark of Athas would be a cool reprieve from the unrelenting Dark Sun. I say "no". While the Underdark is under the ground, I would like to propose another idea: the "crust" of Athas is very thin, with a powerful and hot molten core. The underdark near the surface are slightly cooler than the outside because of the shade that it provides. As one proceeds further down (and not much of a distance), pools and viens of molten hot lava light up the underdark, providing both light and heat. Quickly, the underdark becomes an oven.
Survival is, once again, difficult. Even creatures native to the molten caverns struggle to find pockets of clean air, fresh water and food.
That would explain the Lake of Golden Dreams nicely.
I think the opposite; the Athasian Underdark is a paradise. It has cooler temeratures, protection from the sun and abundant water.
And everyone hasn't moved down there because...?
Tell me were the psion touched you.
My basal ganglia hurts.
And everyone hasn't moved down there because...?
Because the Underdark doesn't exist in Dark Sun; just like on Earth.
Sure, there are caves and such, but no vast network of tunnels and caves; do you think a Champion, not matter how good, could exterminate all the Goblins if Athasian Goblins lived underground? There's so many hidding places that Dasknor would have had to litterally over turn the soil of Athas to find them.
On another note, finding that Goblins, Trolls and Orcs didn't go extinct would be a great adventure. Instead of risking extermination, they simple retreated into the Underdark where the Champions couldn't go.
I suppose, a standard D&D game is how the Champions operated; go into a Dungeon and kill and the Goblins, Orcs etc.
I think the opposite; the Athasian Underdark is a paradise. It has cooler temeratures, protection from the sun and abundant water.
That's exactly what my athasian underdark is. Although replace forests of trees, with forests of fungus.
I think the opposite; the Athasian Underdark is a paradise. It has cooler temeratures, protection from the sun and abundant water.
And everyone hasn't moved down there because...?
Because they don't know about it, and it's occupied by "people" who know how to keep their homes hidden, by normal and magical means.
Because the Underdark doesn't exist in Dark Sun; just like on Earth.
Says who? If I found an underground paradise, I wouldn't walk around telling everyone.
Sure, there are caves and such, but no vast network of tunnels and caves; do you think a Champion, not matter how good, could exterminate all the Goblins if Athasian Goblins lived underground? There's so many hidding places that Dasknor would have had to litterally over turn the soil of Athas to find them.
Who says he did? Sorcerer kings lie and survivors know how to survive. Every resource of athasian information we have is filled with inconsistencies, contradictions and outright lies. Believe nothing that you hear and only half of what you see, sort of thing.
We also have no idea what is deep underground, since there isn't any info on it and if there is, it's subject to the same suspicion. Is this information false, is someone lying to hide a secret? Ultimately, it's up to the DM.