Are there going to be equivalents to Chainmail and Plate since metal is so expensive and rare? Or, will they be non-metal versions of such things, like Obsidian Plate or Stone Mail?
Just curious, because it seems like heavy armor wearers might be hampered a bit by this.
In a setting where its vital to be faster both from the things that want to eat you and from the things that you want to eat - heavy armor wearers are already hampered enough
I'm not really sure what you are getting at.
Are you saying in a setting where metal is extremely rare that heavy armor wearers should be allowed to "have metal armor" because it's balanced or something?
I'm confused by what you're saying. Please clarify.
Yes, there should be athasian heavy armors like plate armor. Just not metal heavy armor. Obsidian, Chitin, Shell, Bone and so on.
Right. That's what I am asking. Has any information be given on this? To those who've played in the Free RPG Day, did they explain armor?
Chitin Chainmail
Mekillot Scale Armor
Id Fiend Scale Armor
So, I guess there will be non-metal heavy armor.
Plus, heavy metal armor = oven in the heat of a desert. Anyone wearing it would be foolish or suicidal.
Right... But are there mechanics to back that up, or are we talking armor check penalties all the same?
Plus, heavy metal armor = oven in the heat of a desert. Anyone wearing it would be foolish or suicidal.
Right... But are there mechanics to back that up, or are we talking armor check penalties all the same?
I'm not too sure, but armor check penalties just don't cover it, I don't think.
I tend to prefer piecemeal armor rules for Athas rather than full armor.
Mechanics for wearing metal armor in particular were SEVERE in old dark sun.
I expect 4E will do the same.
For my game, I will make darn sure there is a mechanical penalty for wearing any heavy armor, metal or otherwise.
I am leaning toward the armor check penalty eating your healing surges, and doubling the armor check penalty on Endurance.
But the rules may cover this.
If a monster scores a crit against you, break your armor to have it deal no damage?
But, what about armor breaking? If weapons are prone to breaking, does that mean Armor can break? Is there an analogous rule to armor?
If a monster scores a crit against you, break your armor to have it deal no damage?
I don't remember there ever being any armor break rules. But I'v not checked in a long time. I'm a fan of giving items saving throws in case they're in a situation where they could break. Although the idea of constantly worrying about my weapon breaking when I hit something, or my armor breaking when I get hit, doesn't sound appealing. Considering how often both those situations could occur. I doubt it would be possible to have anything for more than a few encounters, if that.
Items breaking should be a fun experience, not a frustrating chore.
For my game, I will make darn sure there is a mechanical penalty for wearing any heavy armor, metal or otherwise.
I'm not sure arbitrarily punishing players based on class alone is a good habit to start.
You are better off simply treating Athasian Heavy Armor as being substantially less heavy than similar Heavy Armor in other settings, rather than breaking the game because you're stuck on the semantics of "heavy" or "plate."
For my game, I will make darn sure there is a mechanical penalty for wearing any heavy armor, metal or otherwise.
I'm not sure arbitrarily punishing players based on class alone is a good habit to start.
You are better off simply treating Athasian Heavy Armor as being substantially less heavy than similar Heavy Armor in other settings, rather than breaking the game because you're stuck on the semantics of "heavy" or "plate."
I like this idea.
For my game, I will make darn sure there is a mechanical penalty for wearing any heavy armor, metal or otherwise.
I'm not sure arbitrarily punishing players based on class alone is a good habit to start.
You are better off simply treating Athasian Heavy Armor as being substantially less heavy than similar Heavy Armor in other settings, rather than breaking the game because you're stuck on the semantics of "heavy" or "plate."
Exactly...there was a large netproject back in the day to round up all of the different armor you could make using the various hides, shells, carapaces, scales, etc. However what it comes down to is that you can have anything you want as long as you come up with a good reason for it.
Making armor is a matter of process, just plain animal skin is considered hide, but if you boil it and form it...it's called leather, and if you put metal/stone studs on/in it it's called studded leather. As such with the various plant matter, animal products, & psionics I'm sure there are ways to harden scales, leather, carapace, etc to make them super hard, ie Heavy/Plate while still keeping them light, thus you do not penalize classes that need heavy armor and it still fits with the world view.
That's my bet.
Particularly Battleminds, you can't really be a defender if you don't have a decent AC, and Battleminds don't really have the option of wearing light armour.
In a sense it's the limitations of the system as we have it.
I would prefer piecemeal armour rules as was mentioned by someone earlier, but I don't see any sign it's going to happen. A pity, perhaps it's worth homebrewing some alternate armour rules. (But that seems like a lot of work).
Obsidian Plate? (a couple of people mentioned this.) You do realize how heavy that would be right? - You'd be much better of in metal armour.
Obsidian Plate? (a couple of people mentioned this.) You do realize how heavy that would be right? - You'd be much better of in metal armour.
And BRITTLE. Obsidian isn't exactly strong: it's not a lot better than glass. So: obsidian armor? You get hit, it shatters, and your own armor slices you to ribbons. YAY! Wait...not yay...
Although, since this is fictional obsidian armor.... It could be made of paper and still be as hard as steel. I'm sure obsidian smiths know how to work it to where it wouldn't shatter. Maybe it's a blend of different materials that reinforces it. As for the weight, realistically, yes it would be heavier and steel armor would be the better choice, but steel isn't an option most times and obsidian armor won't get you chased down by every raider in the tablelands, where as iron/steel armor, would.
And heat isn't a problem for enchanted armor. It could be similar to how every thrown magical weapon returns after the attack. Magical athasian armor could provide heat resistance. If not, then you simply remain active at night and rest during the day and when forced to operate during the day, use your alternate armor.
If obsidian can just be used for armor because {MAGIC HAND-WAVING!! THESE ARE NOT THE DROIDS YOU'RE LOOKING FOR!!} then one might as well start saying "well, it's fictionalmetal armor, so it doesn't get hot or wear you down or make noise, or do anything else real metal armor does (we could call it nuphreak armor and it would actually make more fictional sense)". So there's a certain point where the "but its fictional" argument starts unravelling everything around it.
Ah, I see. Functional obsidian armor is not possible, but magic is, humans turned into dragons are and people using mind magic to float boats over an ocean of sand is perfectly fine.
/sarcasm. ( I get your point)
Like I said, they probably have crafting secrets that make obsidian a functional and effective armor. Mixing it with a small amount of another material could make it possible.
As for magic metal armor, it's perfectly reasonable to assume the magical athasian armor provides heat resistance, as magical thrown weapons return. Just another universal property if that's a way you want to go.
Scale & Plate are easily explained, but how can you make chain mail out of brittle organic materials? thats the question!
I'm running a 4E DS game based on many information leaked around the web, and in my game, the halfling ardent is wearing Chainmail made out of interwoven giant hairs. I read somewhere that giant hair is very tough, and it seemed like a good idea to me.
Ask Renegade (the halfling character) how he came upon such a large supply of giant hairs, and he begins to pick his teeth. It's a fun little rp thing he does.
Of course, you can just imagine how foul-smelling giant hair is when pressed against the sweat of a halfling walking under the oppresive sun. XD
At least I tried.
BTW guys, this post is OVER 9,000 for me!! W00t w00t! No, wait, more like 5,000...hmf, still some to go. One day I will be awesome, just like the Internet. I swear.
Scale & Plate are easily explained, but how can you make chain mail out of brittle organic materials? thats the question!
I'm running a 4E DS game based on many information leaked around the web, and in my game, the halfling ardent is wearing Chainmail made out of interwoven giant hairs. I read somewhere that giant hair is very tough, and it seemed like a good idea to me.
Ask Renegade (the halfling character) how he came upon such a large supply of giant hairs, and he begins to pick his teeth. It's a fun little rp thing he does.
Of course, you can just imagine how foul-smelling giant hair is when pressed against the sweat of a halfling walking under the oppresive sun. XD
That's brilliant!
Whats is chain, scale, plate, hide, leather or cloth armour anyway? Its just a rough piece of narrative to say I have +7 to ac, that than saying "I am wearing +7ac, -1 speed armour. They can be made of whatever the hell you want them to be and not mechanically effect the game at all.
Because a halfling wearing an obsidian breastplate doesnt affect suspension of disbelief at all... o wait.
If you look at the game as nothing but a set of combat stats you may as well go play warhammer tabletop (even that has story sometimes). Some things just don't "fit," and I'm inclined to agree that obsidian plate mail is one of those things.
Scale & Plate are easily explained, but how can you make chain mail out of brittle organic materials? thats the question!
I'm running a 4E DS game based on many information leaked around the web, and in my game, the halfling ardent is wearing Chainmail made out of interwoven giant hairs. I read somewhere that giant hair is very tough, and it seemed like a good idea to me.
Ask Renegade (the halfling character) how he came upon such a large supply of giant hairs, and he begins to pick his teeth. It's a fun little rp thing he does.
Of course, you can just imagine how foul-smelling giant hair is when pressed against the sweat of a halfling walking under the oppresive sun. XD
I was thinking something similar to this. Some sort of strong material woven to make a kevlar like suit of armor. Giant Hair, cured leather or animal sinew or all of the above
Whats is chain, scale, plate, hide, leather or cloth armour anyway? Its just a rough piece of narrative to say I have +7 to ac, that than saying "I am wearing +7ac, -1 speed armour. They can be made of whatever the hell you want them to be and not mechanically effect the game at all.
Because a halfling wearing an obsidian breastplate doesnt affect suspension of disbelief at all... o wait.
If you look at the game as nothing but a set of combat stats you may as well go play warhammer tabletop (even that has story sometimes). Some things just don't "fit," and I'm inclined to agree that obsidian plate mail is one of those things.
I think the point is, though, that you can take the mechanical bit (+7 AC, -1 speed) and slap any description you feel appropriate on top of it. If the idea of obsidian armor doesn't sit well (and it doesn't sit well with me either) with you then it can be made from chitin, ultra-heavy leather, dead puppies, Chuck Norris' beard hair, whatever.
Whats is chain, scale, plate, hide, leather or cloth armour anyway? Its just a rough piece of narrative to say I have +7 to ac, that than saying "I am wearing +7ac, -1 speed armour. They can be made of whatever the hell you want them to be and not mechanically effect the game at all.
Because a halfling wearing an obsidian breastplate doesnt affect suspension of disbelief at all... o wait.
If you look at the game as nothing but a set of combat stats you may as well go play warhammer tabletop (even that has story sometimes). Some things just don't "fit," and I'm inclined to agree that obsidian plate mail is one of those things.
I think the point is, though, that you can take the mechanical bit (+7 AC, -1 speed) and slap any description you feel appropriate on top of it. If the idea of obsidian armor doesn't sit well (and it doesn't sit well with me either) with you then it can be made from chitin, ultra-heavy leather, dead puppies, Chuck Norris' beard hair, whatever.
I can totally agree with that. I thought he was defending the concept of brittle, ultra-heavy armor in 150° heat making sense. As far as applying mechanics and reskinning the armor I will be doing the same, only likely with chitin.
Whats is chain, scale, plate, hide, leather or cloth armour anyway? Its just a rough piece of narrative to say I have +7 to ac, that than saying "I am wearing +7ac, -1 speed armour. They can be made of whatever the hell you want them to be and not mechanically effect the game at all.
Because a halfling wearing an obsidian breastplate doesnt affect suspension of disbelief at all... o wait.
If you look at the game as nothing but a set of combat stats you may as well go play warhammer tabletop (even that has story sometimes). Some things just don't "fit," and I'm inclined to agree that obsidian plate mail is one of those things.
I think the point is, though, that you can take the mechanical bit (+7 AC, -1 speed) and slap any description you feel appropriate on top of it. If the idea of obsidian armor doesn't sit well (and it doesn't sit well with me either) with you then it can be made from chitin, ultra-heavy leather, dead puppies, Chuck Norris' beard hair, whatever.
I can totally agree with that. I thought he was defending the concept of brittle, ultra-heavy armor in 150° heat making sense. As far as applying mechanics and reskinning the armor I will be doing the same, only likely with chitin.
I want at all defending the concept of obsidian armour at all, it was much more along the lines of what Nyarlathotep said. What I am basically saying is that you shouldnt stop somone using "plate" armour, you just need to reskin it so that it thematically fits within the world you are in whether its steel plate, carapace made of bugs or techno force armour.
I want at all defending the concept of obsidian armour at all, it was much more along the lines of what Nyarlathotep said. What I am basically saying is that you shouldnt stop somone using "plate" armour, you just need to reskin it so that it thematically fits within the world you are in whether its steel plate, carapace made of bugs or techno force armour.
True, although without Paladins in the setting, no one really suffers if you choose to leave out Plate Armour as an option altogether.
True, although without Paladins in the setting, no one really suffers if you choose to leave out Plate Armour as an option altogether.
To be fair, this stemmed from a DM suggesting he was going to penalize every player wearing heavy armor, metal or otherwise.
True, although without Paladins in the setting, no one really suffers if you choose to leave out Plate Armour as an option altogether.
To be fair, this stemmed from a DM suggesting he was going to penalize every player wearing heavy armor, metal or otherwise.
Which I would have to say is a pretty poor policy.
I want at all defending the concept of obsidian armour at all, it was much more along the lines of what Nyarlathotep said. What I am basically saying is that you shouldnt stop somone using "plate" armour, you just need to reskin it so that it thematically fits within the world you are in whether its steel plate, carapace made of bugs or techno force armour.
This is what I would do as well. Just because I plan to penalize anyone wearing a metal oven in the desert, does not mean I would not make sure the character had fair alternatives.
Whats is chain, scale, plate, hide, leather or cloth armour anyway? Its just a rough piece of narrative to say I have +7 to ac, that than saying "I am wearing +7ac, -1 speed armour. They can be made of whatever the hell you want them to be and not mechanically effect the game at all.
Because a halfling wearing an obsidian breastplate doesnt affect suspension of disbelief at all... o wait.
If you look at the game as nothing but a set of combat stats you may as well go play warhammer tabletop (even that has story sometimes). Some things just don't "fit," and I'm inclined to agree that obsidian plate mail is one of those things.
I think the point is, though, that you can take the mechanical bit (+7 AC, -1 speed) and slap any description you feel appropriate on top of it. If the idea of obsidian armor doesn't sit well (and it doesn't sit well with me either) with you then it can be made from chitin, ultra-heavy leather, dead puppies, Chuck Norris' beard hair, whatever.
I can totally agree with that. I thought he was defending the concept of brittle, ultra-heavy armor in 150° heat making sense. As far as applying mechanics and reskinning the armor I will be doing the same, only likely with chitin.I want at all defending the concept of obsidian armour at all, it was much more along the lines of what Nyarlathotep said. What I am basically saying is that you shouldnt stop somone using "plate" armour, you just need to reskin it so that it thematically fits within the world you are in whether its steel plate, carapace made of bugs or techno force armour.
This is what I would do as well. Just because I plan to penalize anyone wearing a metal oven in the desert, does not mean I would not make sure the character had fair alternatives.
Ah, I see. Functional obsidian armor is not possible, but magic is, humans turned into dragons are and people using mind magic to float boats over an ocean of sand is perfectly fine. /sarcasm. ( I get your point)
No, clearly you don't. Note I said there's a certain point after which it becomes nonsensical; you can only use the "well, it's fiction!" excuse so much before the ability to suspend disbelief, or moreso the internal coherency of the world, starts breaking down. Especially when you start changing the basic physical properties of mundane items.
Thus, glass (or its equivalent) that isn't brittle but isn't magically enchanted? That is lightweight but functionally as hard as bone or even steel, and doesn't shatter? Either naturally so, or by using a process cheap enough that it can be wasted on armor? And they aren't making everything out of this WHY?
So, yeah, functional obsidian armor -- as a common (or even uncommon) thing, such that it would be listed as a general material used for armor -- is quite different from magic, dragons, and levitating boats.
Considering life on Athas has adapted, it certainly makes more sense that natural alternatives have replaced metal. You could just fluff plate armor and say you are wearing a giant turtle breastplace, or some other critter with a bony outter plating. If wearing that shell didn't kill the animal, it could very well be made into something that won't cause the character to boil in his/her own juices after a few minutes (but still provide great protection versus physical attacks).
Hope this helps on this matter.
Let´s not forget about the harsh environment of Athas would be translated into skill checks to resist the extreme heat of the day and the cold of night. In the 3.5 Dark Sun, armor penalties were doubled for each check. And also had an effect on rules of fatigue and such. Thats why many of its inhabitants prefered light armor even if it was a fighter... "there are no paladins in Athas" hehehehe
Hope this helps on this matter.
The problem is, the capacity to get by in lighter armour does not apply equally to all classes.
Ardents and Battleminds for example both require heavy armour, have no light armour build options and don't even have the option of staying back at range. What's more they're two of the psionic classes, so presumably they're wanted in a Dark Sun game.
Penalize heavy armour two heavily and you'll skew the game towards light armour character classes and builds. Lots of Tempest fighters, rogues, high dex rangers, monks and the like.
When I play DS I expect there to be changes. I do not want to play a desert version of the Points of Light campaign world. I want to make just surviving the elements to be a day to day thing. The pure danger of DS is what I was attracted to.
I mean if they are going to come up with cheesy crap to fir in full plate armor so tjhose heavy armor wearing fighters won't feel left out then I would just rather go back to player 2nd edition Dark Sun.
I just have a feeling that DS is going to turn out like the Forgotten Realms did.
I mean if they are going to come up with cheesy crap to fir in full plate armor so tjhose heavy armor wearing fighters won't feel left out then I would just rather go back to player 2nd edition Dark Sun.
Another victim of "can't get outside the box in my head."
If the whole point of heavy armor rules is "You would have to be a moron to wear heavy armor on Athas," what difference does it make if Athasian full plate isn't the same as full plate on Abeir-Toril?
What's the point of creating rules that arbitrarily punish players based on class choice so you can have a rule that says "no one wears armor heavier than X on Athas"? Why does that make more sense than simply stating "no functional armor on Athas is heavier than X"?
In fact, why are you even comparing two completely different settings as if they have to be one and the same, when your entire premise seems to be that you want them to be different?
You realize that the second best heavy armor has no armor check penalties and hide armor does, right?
The way I see it, anything that encumbers you, is bad in the blistering heat. not so sure about intense cold.
I mean if they are going to come up with cheesy crap to fir in full plate armor so tjhose heavy armor wearing fighters won't feel left out then I would just rather go back to player 2nd edition Dark Sun.
Another victim of "can't get outside the box in my head."
If the whole point of heavy armor rules is "You would have to be a moron to wear heavy armor on Athas," what difference does it make if Athasian full plate isn't the same as full plate on Abeir-Toril?
What's the point of creating rules that arbitrarily punish players based on class choice so you can have a rule that says "no one wears armor heavier than X on Athas"? Why does that make more sense than simply stating "no functional armor on Athas is heavier than X"?
In fact, why are you even comparing two completely different settings as if they have to be one and the same, when your entire premise seems to be that you want them to be different?
Because thats what gives worlds individuality instead of just a name and some fluff. If DS plays just like any of the other worlds then whats the point in even playing it? You could just take PoL add some sand and boom.
And to be honest, if "individuality" is just a codeword for "players are randomly penalized" then really, it's a good thing you're not involved in game design.
Personally, I'm not a fan of heavy armor in wasteland settings either, aside from chain mail bikinis (Hey metal is scarce!) I'll wait till it comes out first though. I'm also of the opinion that it would detract a bit from the setting if they just chitinize all the heavy armors but otherwise it looks the same.
If ceramics are on the table, I think chain shirts could be made by fashioning loops of still-pliable clay, linking them together, and baking them with some manner of spacers between the links to keep them from baking together. It'd have to be done in stages, baking several rows of links at a time, adding more, baking again, etc. It'd probably work best in a steady flow of multiple armors being made at once; while one is in the oven you shape links for another, etc.
As far as non-metal weapons and armor go, what about ceramics?
I'm hoping for the return of Glassteel in the form of a ritual much like Ironwood. Both of wich would probably see some use in the setting.
I don't see anything wrong for a DM to penalize players for wearing heavy armor if you're going to give them reasonable alternatives. Being made of carapace just means its a bit more organic looking, but it still looks like it'll be an oven in the desert.
Personally, I'm not a fan of heavy armor in wasteland settings either, aside from chain mail bikinis (Hey metal is scarce!) I'll wait till it comes out first though. I'm also of the opinion that it would detract a bit from the setting if they just chitinize all the heavy armors but otherwise it looks the same.
I agree. But I'm not sure what those alternatives should be. There's something like the pre-errata Hide Armour Expertise, but that wasn't exactly fair either.
I know is flavor text, but it´s an idea though.