I was estranged from my beloved collection of Dark Sun materials and supplements for several years, but have recently unearthed all the ancient tomes and have been reading through them for several weeks now. Needless to say, my love and passion for the scorched and barren wastes of Athas has been re-ignited!
I've been scouring the internet for data, material, and information as to the fate of this campaign setting and stumbled upon Athas.org which then led me here to you all.
I've currently undertaken the task of mapping out most of Athas' surface...almost 135,000 square miles to be exact! Using the imagery, pallette, and key symbols of the original maps found in the boxed sets. Overall I have about 36 map areas, 450 x 350 miles (the size and span of the maps in the boxed set) to do, and have completed 9 of them (done in photoshop to the actual print size). I wanted to see what you all thought of them and also to see what everyone's knowledge/understanding of the size/dimensions of Athas the planet as well as the system that it exists in. A big red sun and two moons, that's about the extent of my knowledge of Athasian cosmology (besides the planes of the Gray, Black, Hollow and Elemental Planes). Are there other planets in the Athasian solar system? How many? Is the system helio-centric? Athas-centric? Or is it governed by different laws and principles of cosmic/planetary motion?
Has anyone run any campaigns where this matters? Anyway, i greatly look forward to your feedback!! Thanks a ton, I'll post pics if you all say you wanna' see 'em (or if i can)!
~B-)
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. Sounds great :D , I would personally love to see all that you have come up with.Have you seen some of the maps done by others for Athas? There are a number of them out there including a world map of sorts (well only half the world and not in very much detail), a couple different versions of the other side of the sea of silt and entirely distant region of Athas called the sundered penninsula. Of course none of this is cannon.
As for posting your pictures here....
I'm not so sure if you can actually do that. But, you can most certainly post them on a site like Photobucket or somesuch and provide links to there locations.Oh yah, welcome to the community ;)
i basically collected all map data that i could find, from the maps in the original 2nd ed. and 2nd ed. revised boxed sets and supplements to the work that the crew over at Dark Sun Rising to the semi-world map at Distant Paths . all of which i found through the links page on Athas.org
all maps that have been created already, be they box set maps or maps done by Dark Sun Rising, i have not redone. i have however composited them into the larger world view map...i will post it soon...let me size it and stuff...stay tuned...
)' /> i noted the large black spot on the southern end of the continent, i only assume that it's the Dead Lands; but i am wondering if it really spans that much surface area? according to map scale it would mean several hundred thousand square miles of obsidian!?! not that that is a bad thing, but man! talk about a cataclysmic event and a massive amount of magic!! i digress...
i then took that image above into photoshop and measured out a grid with spacing equal to the 450 x 350 (that's the closest approximation i could come up with) mile map size. after, i took the maps created by Dark Sun Rising and shrunk them down to fit into the respective grid spaces where they seemed to belong.
)' /> the tablelands and jagged cliffs regions in areas D5 and D4 respectively; and the anattan wastes into map area E5 (the valley of the Cerulean Storm fits nicely between D5 and E5). then i just started looking at areas of the map that interested me and started to fill them in. each time i finished a map i would shrink it down and stick it in it's proper grid space, thus filling out the overall world map bit-by-bit. as you can see, i have complete maps for areas B3, B4, C2, C3, D2, and E4. i have working versions of areas A4, B5, and D3.
i also thought about the world climate and created a version with climate bands showing mean temperature moving from the equatorial region to the poles.
)' /> that being done it leads me to a few ponderings as to the overall size of Athas. if this is merely a representation of half the globe (assuming Athas is spherical in shape - there was mention in Dragon Kings in and old Elf song that it was flat) then the world itself is rather small...almost smaller than the earth's moon (not that it matters in a fantasy world). so is this area merely a continent on a larger body, not necessarily encompassing the entirety of the western/eastern hemisphere of Athas? or is it literally the eastern/western hemisphere of the world? or is it flat?
anyway, i'll put up some more pix in the next post...thanks everyone!!
~B-)
Area C3 - The Great Northern Sea
)' /> as you can see i've left out any cities or sites of interest so far, preferring to just hash out the geological features and such. partly because i'm still thinking about what should go there, but also because i wanted to see what everyone thought first. this may be the biggest body of water on Athas currently. according to the world view there may be other areas of the Silt Sea with large bodies of water, but none are really accessible or connected closely to the main continent. this area was the first to catch my eye, and thus the first i did. as you can see a massive mudflat (the BlackSalt Plain) surrounds the Great Northern Sea. i can imagine this area would be a mire of vegetation and thick mud, populated by all sorts of real nasty critters and moreover a place the Thri-Kreen to the south would avoid. i was thinking of what types of peoples might exist in this area...refugees from the Cleansing Wars might have fled to these far reaches of Athas and managed to eke out a living...or it may be that totally different and unknown intelligences live in the far reaches. thoughts and ideas are always welcome!
secondly...
Area D2 - The Jungles of Cthuul
)' /> this area looked incredibly green to me so i imagined a thick jungle on the edge of a large mudflat (the Sink) that eventually gives way to the Sea of Silt. the mudflat is dwindling slowly and the waters that do exist are nasty and fetid. in this map you can see i added a few ruins and villages but have yet to determine or name their natures - again, because i want some community feedback! The Ironcrag Mountains to the south span a large portion of the upper region of the continent and i thought that maybe they would be the final haven of dwarves from the Green Age who still retain some knowledge and skill with iron, but have become more like Derro or Duergar in their nature - isolationist and evil...again, just throwin' stuff around. :D
anyway, i look forward to everyone's input and i hope that these maps get you excited and inspired. also try to think of the questions i posed at the beginning of this thread as to the cosmology of Athas. in some of the supplements it mentions a celestial body known as the Messanger that appears every so often in the night sky. is it a comet? another planet? or something wholly different? let's have fun with it!
~B-)
Beyond the Great Northern Sea, following the spines of the Northern World's Edge Mountains that protrude from the Sea of Silt, the loamy powder gives way once again to vast mudflats. these however are more like bogs or moors, misty and shrouded in solitude. further along is the Sapphire Sea, a cold and wind-swept sea, that yields to a massive mountain range at the pole of Athas. at the lower elevations lie cool, temperate rain-forests cloaked in fog, as you go higher they give way to massive peaks of granite and stone (35,000 ft. elevation at the highest). here are probably the only remaining areas of ice and snow in the whole world. as you can see i've added some sites of interest and i was thinking that at the pole is an ancient, and monolithic planer gateway. a throwback from the green age long forgotten, perhaps made by a race that fled the planet at the height of the cleansing wars (for those of you who like plane-hoppin' like me); or perhaps the last remnant of a very isolated society (much like the lords of the last sea) a fog-shrouded paradise surrounded by terrors and dangers far worse than those of the tablelands. use your imagination!
~B-)
as the Great Northern Sea surrenders once again to the encroaching silt a small channel wends its way northward. not much exists beyond the mudflats save the fine powder and outcroppings of stone, the high peaks of the Norther World's Edge Mountains. i've placed a city on this map, thinking that perhaps it was some isolated kingdom that had lost it's ability to create psionic items and/or life-shaped creations...not really sure...though you can see roads lead to the south, so perhaps it is merely part of a larger empire?
~B-)
here a high mountain range and a verdant forest sit at the edge of the Sea of Silt. There is slight rainfall at the highest elevations which runs down into the forests and beyond, over cliffs, plunging into the Sea of Silt. The Cliffs themselves, though sheer, are nothing compared to the Jagged Cliffs Region, though at their base is a sinking mire of mud and ooze. i'd imagine that perhaps a society of amazon-like people live on the western edge of the mountians, having built a large city at the edge of the cliff by a massive waterfall. as you can see three large fresh-water lakes lie in this region (as well as two in the silt itself), as well as a smattering of villages, and a single ruin...perhaps the last testimony to the halfling nature-masters...sitting quietly on the edge of a smooth and glassy lake...
~B-)
here the northeastern edge of the Crimson Savannah gives way to verdent fields of grass and rolling hills dotted with trees. this is the southern end of the World's Edge Mountains. a large lake, Ral's Crescent, feeds a river that runs eastward into the Savannah. cradlded in the mountains on the eastern side of the mountains is another lake, further beyond the hills and grasses give way to scrub plains and eventually white, sandy dunes. no places of interest have been placed yet.
~B-)
here is the northern edge of the Anattan Wastes. a dry and barren area of rocky badlands, sun-scorched peaks, hot sand dunes, and crusted salt-flats. in the western section of the major land mass is the ancient city of Arala (or another - i've been trying to integrate some of the mythos cities into the maps, cities where the Champions originated from, in this case Sacha). in the Sunrise Mountains there is rumored to be a glittering tower of gold though none have returned to verify this. a few oasis, very few, spot this region; and a ruin sits on the eastern coast near the thin spires of black rock known as the Wailing Towers...
...
that's about it for tonight. let me know what you all think, and moreover, what areas if any on the composite map you'd like to see me do next!! feel free to present any ideas for certain locations or any of the locations i've listed above! brainstorm baby! aw yeah!
there was mention in Dragon Kings in and old Elf song that it was flat) then the world itself is rather small...almost smaller than the earth's moon (not that it matters in a fantasy world). so is this area merely a continent on a larger body, not necessarily encompassing the entirety of the western/eastern hemisphere of Athas? or is it literally the eastern/western hemisphere of the world? or is it flat?
anyway, i'll put up some more pix in the next post...thanks everyone!!
~B-)
About the size of the moon? that begs the question then.. Athas has two moons in its sky right?? well.. if the earth had two moons, and you were on one.. wouldn't the earth and the other moon look like a moon from whatever surface you stood on?? Could Athas therefore be a moon to a larger planet?? (Maybe that messenger craft had a very good reason for traveling, to one of the moons, which is a larger planet.. while Athas itself could be a colony to a larger world, forgotten or abandoned..) From a distance.. it could seem as if the Brown tide may have indeed destroyed the planet.. if one didn't know specifically what happened...
Anyone up for traveling to a moon larger than Athas in search of the original ancestors of the Ancient Halflings?? Bus leaves at 5pm so make sure you have your tickets! :P
As for the inhabitants, ruins, etc of various regions. I think many would say that your going to have a vary hard time getting anything resembling a consensus from the community, but thats no reason to not try. Plenty of ideas can at least be collected, so that while you probably won't be able to have these maps and locations become cannon, you can certainly develop them with the input of various community members to the point were they might as well be.
Just making the maps without any locations is already a great contribution to the setting and will allow game masters to develop their own interpretations of the world with the aid of your maps if the choose to take that route. I'm personally interested in joint development, in gathering a consensus (or near concensus) on as many aspects of the maps as possible. If we can get a lot of people working on ideas for the various new areas presented in these maps then I think the cream will rise to the top.
I love what you've done with the place, especially the inclusion of Arala in the Anattan Wastes map. Totally awesome!
Keep it up!, these are the best maps I have ever seen! I love them sooo much
:D Please keep it up untill you have finished them all!
Oh and I want all of them now please! :D
A detail I'd change though: the name of the Cthuul jungles...
How many variations on Faerûn's jungles of Shult can the D&D universe absorb? There's already Faerun, Toril, and Eberron I believe, who all have similar-sounding jungles.
But its a minor detail, still, even if you did not change the name the entire idea is a great one. Kudos!
I will admit that I do miss the old TSR hand drawn maps of old though.
*slap self* My site is down for about 2 weeks, although, if you are interested, everyone could see your maps on the net by siltskimmer.net
LYRIC: that’s a pretty sweet idea! Athas being a moon of a larger planetary body, Ral or Guthay, perhaps the other “moon” in Athas’ night sky is it’s brother or sister that orbits this larger body? I like the idea of the origin of life from one of the moons and it being cut off, watching from a distance Athas becoming brown and barren. I used to run Spelljammer way back in the day and I wrote in a campaign on the origin of the titular ship as being a creation of the Halfling nature-masters that they used to flee the dying Blue Age. Great ideas!
RUHL-THAN SAGE: Thanks! Now that I have all the map elements set up as brushes it takes me much less time to crank out a map…though I’m still cleaning up some of the elements to make them more like the original maps in the boxed sets. I fell in love with those maps and the look and feel that the original artists had made and I really wanted to re-create that feel as closely as I could…though I know I’ll never be completely spot on to the originals. I’m all about collaborating, I posted these up here because I wanted to see what the community and other fans of this setting had to say as well as see what had already been done. I’m more than willing to work with everyone to create something that everyone can use and as I said before, everyone is more than welcome to e-mail me and request marked or unmarked versions of these maps for their own use…and for those of you with access to Photoshop CS I can even send a .PSD of the map elements like cities, villages, etc. that you could then just drop in on a layer over the blank map and fill in for yourselves. I agree that areas C4 and C5 are swarming with Kreen, I like the idea of a massive insectoid empire; but at the same time I can’t envision them being too expansive…or any race for that matter. From the worldview there are many areas and locals that are cut off geographically from others and I think that it is this fact that has led to such a vast split between the different races and cultures of Athas. In the case of the Kreen it may be that their empire is hemmed in by swamplands or thick jungle, places that a Kreen would find uncomfortable (darn that chitin-rot)!
KHAINE: I’m excited by yours and everyone’s feedback, it just makes me want to get cartography-crazy! I do like the idea of Arala in the Northern Anattan Wastes and I plan on putting other cities of the original chamions in various areas around the map. Then it boils down to thinking of what happened to these cities or locations? Do they stand in ruin, a testimony to a long-forgotten age? Or did they thrive in the wake of the Cleansing Wars? Cool stuff to ponder indeed…
ONINOTAKI: thanks a ton, I’m glad everyone is diggin’ ‘em. Like I said just hit me up via e-mail and I can send what I got to you so far. Just let me know if you want full-size (big files) or smaller and if you’d like them with whatever sites of interest I’ve included or if you’d like them without for you to fill out on your own.
PENNARIN: LoL…yeah, I did like enjoy playing the Jungles of Chult back in the days…it’s like the multi-fold jungle that exists on all planes through all of time I guess. Though really, the name was pulled from Cthulu as I was envisioning a race of illithid-like creatures that inhabit the Sink of that area…as I said before I’m totally open to suggestions and crits as far as names and stuff are concerned and in all honesty I wasn’t quite happy with that name to begin, but I just set it down as a place holder.
SYSANE: yeah definitely, something to be said about good ol’ pen-and-paper eh?
though admittedly it would take me much longer to do each map if I were to draw it to it’s actual print-size and scale as well as color it. I basically drew the map elements freehand, then made them into brushes so that I could paint long tracts of geological features more quickly, I still think some could be re-worked a bit, like the dunes and stony barrens, but overall the effect is close to the originals and it definitely saves me a lot of time, which means I can get the maps to ya’ll a lot faster!Again thanks to everyone! I’ll rip out a few more this weekend for your viewing pleasure next week. Until then keep posting thoughts and ideas and feel free to hit me up via e-mail if you want copies or if you have any other cool ideas! Thanks a ton guys!
BTW- I would love to get my hot little hands on the tools and programs you used to make these maps- so if you can, please e-mail me that stuff too.
Thanks dude, and map on!
Don't forget about Ral's Sundra Peninsula region! It would fit nicely in area G4.
Thanks Greyorm- that was the area that I was talking about!
Brian- You may want to contact Ral because he has some great detail for his Peninsula area that is off the hook.
as you can see it fit just perfect into the G4 and G5 areas, though there's a good portion of the southern half of G5 that needs to be filled up a bit but otherwise it works out beautifully! props to Ral for creating the cool map!
i'm thinking south of the Sundra Peninsula in areas G6 and G7 are large stretches of seething volcanic wastes (the area of the map is rather dark indicating mountains or something), sulfur springs and lava fields...hmmm...fun!
more to come, stay tuned...
RUHL-THAN SAGE: Thanks! Now that I have all the map elements set up as brushes it takes me much less time to crank out a map…though I’m still cleaning up some of the elements to make them more like the original maps in the boxed sets. I fell in love with those maps and the look and feel that the original artists had made and I really wanted to re-create that feel as closely as I could…though I know I’ll never be completely spot on to the originals.
The originals are hand drawn, so no brush set can imitate the natural variation inherent in a hand drawn picture. That's not to say there isn't room for improvement, but they are already better than what anyone else has made for the setting.
I’m all about collaborating, I posted these up here because I wanted to see what the community and other fans of this setting had to say as well as see what had already been done. I’m more than willing to work with everyone to create something that everyone can use and as I said before, everyone is more than welcome to e-mail me and request marked or unmarked versions of these maps for their own use…and for those of you with access to Photoshop CS I can even send a .PSD of the map elements like cities, villages, etc. that you could then just drop in on a layer over the blank map and fill in for yourselves.
Awesome
, I am an artist actually and I do have Photoshop CS. My wife just discovered the customizable brush sets recently and has been going crazy over them, but I hadn't thought to use them for map creation. I agree that areas C4 and C5 are swarming with Kreen, I like the idea of a massive insectoid empire; but at the same time I can’t envision them being too expansive…or any race for that matter. From the worldview there are many areas and locals that are cut off geographically from others and I think that it is this fact that has led to such a vast split between the different races and cultures of Athas. In the case of the Kreen it may be that their empire is hemmed in by swamplands or thick jungle, places that a Kreen would find uncomfortable (darn that chitin-rot)!
Yah, the Kreen would be almost completely hemmed in by any jungle, swamp or steep mountainous region. There is a thread running right now about the Dromites and their possible inclusion into the setting. Perhaps their homeland could go into one of the new regions adjacent to the kreen empire. I would also like to see more halfling controled regions as they were the dominant inhabitants of Athas during the blue age.
How about water/moisture? It would take a significant amount of water to keep the numerous jungles, forests, plains and other areas of abundant life from dying out over the period after the Cleansing Wars. Water for required rainfall would have to evaporate from some significant body of water. Would it be reasonable to assume that the poles still retain enough water to maintain the worlds ecosystems?
Just some thoughts to help with those juices
Yah, the Kreen would be almost completely hemmed in by any jungle, swamp or steep mountainous region. There is a thread running right now about the Dromites and their possible inclusion into the setting. Perhaps their homeland could go into one of the new regions adjacent to the kreen empire. I would also like to see more halfling controled regions as they were the dominant inhabitants of Athas during the blue age.
this actually gives me an idea!! as i fill out the grid spaces i can also note political/racial boundaries! thus, you could see what areas were populated by what races and/or empires overlayed on the geography! i could whip it up lickity-split! then areas that aren't finished or haven't been filled in can just have a "?" and people can toss in ideas and suggestions as to what races or cultures populate the area...like areas C4, C5 and bits of D4, and C5 would be the Kreen empire...hmmm...
One thing that occured to me is the possible inclusion of a map that details the possible locations of tectonic plates and include possible explanations for excessive lava or mantle exposure to the surface. Are those areas created by defiling or are they naturally occuring events that, given the opportunity, will cool and form new land masses? On a related note, will the area occupied by the Cerulean Storm eventually create an area of solid ground over the lava grounds. The dead lands on another hand must have been created by magic, because I don't believe such a vast amount of obsidian could form naturally.
How about water/moisture? It would take a significant amount of water to keep the numerous jungles, forests, plains and other areas of abundant life from dying out over the period after the Cleansing Wars. Water for required rainfall would have to evaporate from some significant body of water. Would it be reasonable to assume that the poles still retain enough water to maintain the worlds ecosystems?
Just some thoughts to help with those juices
all great ideas, and ones i will address as the overall geography fills out and we have a better picture of the continent as a whole. also, just to give you an idea of how the water has receded on Athas over the millenia you can check out the Green Age version of Athas with a grid over it...
as you can see, or at least what i've inferred from this image, is the poles are ice-capped. large portions of the deadlands are under water, and what is the Great North Sea in the current athas world view once extended inland several hundred miles (where the western edge of the crimson savannah now lies).
this brings to mind several questions about the Green Age and the cultures of that time. with so much water one can only assume that there MUST have been quite a bit of sailing and travel along the seas (utilizing psionically driven ships, the progenitors of the silt skiffs). someone of the time MUST have mapped the world right? cities and empires may have had vast trade routes, overall i can see quite a bit of maritime activity in this part of Athas' past. that being said, as the seas dried and silt prevailed several kingdoms must have died out because of their dependance on the trade of other kingdoms across the continent or even around the globe. also, places that were accessible by a few weeks or even a months journey by sea were no longer reachable as the seas dried up, marooning some cultures on large land-masses of their own to develope and survive the changing climate. all of these factors should be kept in mind while developing the current regions and climes of the far reaches of the Athasian continent.
speaking of continents, anyone have any ideas as to what this particular continent should be named? again, i can imagine some ancient cartographer of the Green Age recording and drawing out maps for mariners and ships captains around the world. which is part of the reason why i'm scoping out the world view...i wanted to present to the players in my campaign an ancient map of Green Age Athas, thereby opening up a whole world of exploration and danger...new frontiers...that sort of stuff...
anyway, i ramble, in the end it seems that currently most water is located near the poles of athas, as it recedes it leaves hundreds of miles of thick, salt-laden mud. this is why the jungles and lots of vegetation still exist in the areas where these large bodies of water reside (firstly because it is cooler at the poles so the water takes longer to evaporate, and secondly because their size overall provides a lot of possible moisture to drive weather patterns near and around them). though as one would travel closer to the equator water would become more scarce, and at the equator proper it would be incredibly hot and arid and barren, strangely enough the majority of the continent at the equator is obsidian...Dead Lands is an understatement...it would be Hell!
awesome stuff guys, keep it comin'!
Something to keep in mind as everyone develops these large areas: each grid rectangle is actually the size of the Tyr region. Now, consider how much variation in culture and geography there is in that region, and when you develop your own section, try to match that. Large homogenous areas are boring, not exciting.
I really only think that the Tyr region would be like this- like the US- a melting pot of races and cultures. Now if you look in other parts of the world you have some variation, but nothing like what we have in the States. I think a few totally or almost empty areas are called for, with a few large empires and some strong regions were several diferent nations share boarders would be the right choice.
I have personally incorporated the idea of elven seafaring into my campaigns green age history. The PCs in my game are currently working for an elven air cleric to recover an ancient elven artifact based on the Drake's Hearts from the Psionic Artifacts of Athas, called the Rain Drake's Heart. The Artifact is located on an remote island in the sea of silt and locked away, protected by powerful wards that can only be unlocked during a specific time on a specific date. The loction was an elven wayfare point a stronghold and lighthouse, that served as a naval base during the early days of their war with Alberon, the Elf Slayer. Basically, great knowledge of Astronomy and Navigation is required to determine the location of the island and the time at which it can be opened. To make matters even more complicated the key required to open the chamber that the Rain Drake Heart is contained within, is on another island entirely. One that is now inhabited by the decendants of one of the elves that escaped from the island, a tribe of Plains Giants. The key is a holy relic for them that they will not part with willingly.
I really only think that the Tyr region would be like this- like the US- a melting pot of races and cultures. Now if you look in other parts of the world you have some variation, but nothing like what we have in the States. I think a few totally or almost empty areas are called for, with a few large empires and some strong regions were several diferent nations share boarders would be the right choice.
Not true, Kal. Compare Europe and the US. You have the Norse, the Danes, the English, the Irish, the Germans, the Slavs, the Finns, the Sweedes, the Swiss, the French, the Spanish, the Italians, the Turks, etc. -- many of whom are culturally quite dissimilar -- all crowded into a relatively small area (smaller than North America), and in constant contact, whether in trade or war.
That also makes a difference: are we talking regional boundaries -- based on size -- or political boundaries -- based on governance? You cannot say "The US" and then compare it to "England" and believe you have made your point, because of the massive differences in the sizes of the countries being discussed.
The US claims a huge chunk of land, and a simple comparison by size reveals that most areas in the US are quite homogenous in terms of population and culture, and no more mixed than in other population centers of the world...though as a governing entity it may be more culturally mixed than others. Regionally, however, it is nothing special in this regard.
All this disproves the statement that "most" of the world is not as culturally mixed or never has been as much as in the US, particularly when we take into account the scale of the regions we are discussing. (Again, consider the diversity of the region comprising Europe compared to the region comprising the US, as the latter is as or more culturally varied than the latter).
You also have a large amount of cultural mixing and variance in places such as Indonesia and Pakistan, in an area only slightly smaller than the US, and have had this mixing for a very long time. Consider, too, lands that were the centers of ancient trade routes between a variety of cultures, such as Israel, were also highly mixed in terms of cultures (and that's even smaller by comparison to the US).
Both the Roman Empire and the (relatively short-lived) Empire of Alexander were incredibly culturally diverse, to say nothing of the more recent British Empire: simply examine the extents to which these empires spread, and the various cultures over which they ruled. Though you will note, like the US, those are all political entities, rather than specifically regional ones.
Mass communication and political affiliation has more to do with the idea that we live in a multicultural society than anything else, because we see or hear about these other cultures and peoples (existing inside our political boundaries), even though they may be a thousand of miles away or more and we never actually encounter them in our localities with much frequency (for example, US Census fact: 75% of the white population of America has never met a black person. Surprising but true).
Another reason the US is a melting pot as a political entity is that it claims an overarching government promising freedom and safety for all who wish it (nevermind current policies) within its considerable continental borders, but that does not make it regionally more diverse than Europe.
Since the Tyr valley region does not have anything similar that would draw vastly disparate cultures together into that small of an area, we might easily assume this sort of cultural mix is the general state of affairs on the world of Athas, given the small size and lack of political cohesion of the Tyr region, or other obvious features that might give rise to such a non-standard state of affairs.
That is, the Tyr Region presents no plausible reason why it does not exist at the status quo of the rest of the world in regards to diversity -- why diversity should be greater there than eslewhere, so it presumably exists at the status quo.
...
Finally, my note above also included geography and geographical features, which was actually my main point of my post since the current maps have nothing to do with political boundaries (despite my lengthy response to that point). The Tyr region is small but quite varied. One should strive for the same sort variance in the other regional maps, or (as I stated before and bears repeating) you get vast, insignificantly repetitive and thus boring areas.
Your rendition of the regions included in the original hand-drawn map is very convincing and I really like that you were able to use the same symbols as those on TSR original maps.
I'm looking forward to see the areas B6, C6, B7 and C7 as those are were I'm developping the Brown Lands area, which includes the Misty Sea - the ending of the Misty Border - at which bottom sits the old and decadent reggelid kingdom.
Keep up the good work!
Thank you,
Alexis
where the hell did you get that from! I don't think that is from a recent census, I don't think I've ever even met a white person who has never met a black person, asian person, hispanic person, and a person of native american decent at least once.Greygorm, I was following you and generally agreeing with you until you got to the census fact.
It was brought up in a cultural issues class I attended. The students in class found it hard to believe as well, but the data was taken from the most recent national census data available.
The reasons behind the fact were also discussed: mainly, white people (as a population group) tend to be gathered mostly in rural (farm) areas, whereas African Americans (as a population group) tend to be clustered in urban areas. You don't find a lot of African American farmers, or African Americans living in rural America, so given that is where the majority of the white population is focused, the two groups have a good statistical chance of not encountering one another.
Needless to say, if you're from an urban or suburban area, especially out east, of course you won't have met anyone who has never met a black person...you're among the wrong segment of your society. Now, try coming up around where I live, or head into the Midwest: I do know people who have never met a black man, not locally -- we have a college, which tends to draw minorities to the community -- but in the surrounding area.
Unfortunately, I don't have the numbers and percentages that were used to support all this, as I didn't write any of it down at the time (and likely wouldn't be able to dig up the notes at this point even if I had). I would go talk to the professor in question, but he moved on to a different school earlier this year.
And anyways, it is not particularly necessary for my point(s) to stand, and too off-topic for the boards to have a discussion of it here or try to track down the data.
Far to the west, beyond the World's Edge Mountains, lies a barren and silent land of wind-worn mountains, sun-baked deserts of red sand, and a vast shimmering expanse of white sand dunes. the Dreaming Dunes are so named because of their strange soporific effect on the mind and body. after a few hours of travel, weariness and fatigue set in and eventually sleep. few have made it beyond the seemingly endless stretches of sand to the farthest edge of the Western Peninsula. some say the effect is the result of some magical or psionic dweomer that radiates from the tall silver spire at the dunes western edge, though this has never been verified. the Thunderhead peaks rumble with the sound of thunder, the arid and dry air gives rise to the buildup of static energy, and at night flashes of lightning dance over the stark high peaks. overall this land appears to be empty and silent, nary a call of a wild beast is heard over the soft sigh of the hot, arid winds. though at night, dangerous nocturnal predators hunt the stony barrens and rocky badlands; and ephemeral spectres haunt the white sands of the Dreaming Dunes...
I have just one fondamental question:
Has those maps (actual age and the green age maps) actually been recognized as canon??( from Athas.org witch is, until said otherwise, THE officials.)
I mean what's the use of creating all those interesting maps expanding what we know of Athas if eventually there are made for not'.
I mean there are other fan art maps of Athas out there. And althought each of us can choose witch one will compose our own Athas, it would be cool to cannonize a few of them at least.
I say leave other region as blank for futur unthought (as of the now) products.
I say don't discourage him--if Brian wants to make the various sections of the map, more power to him. I'll put them on my site (Already done the sections above except his latest), and I'll find uses for them in my campaigns. If you don't like them, then don't use them--but don't suggest to someone not to keep making the maps just because it might not be "official". I don't think Athas.org should ever make any of this "official", so that each person can do their own thing in their campaigns.
Jihun-Nish- I am not trying to be rude, but why does it have to be canon to be done?? The only way to get something made official is to just make it and then have the community throw in their two bits and Athas.org makes the final call. I mean, I have made several spells, items, PrC's, and other things that are not official, but I still make them and I think that others use it regardless of the 'officialness' (is that a real word?), the same as I do with the material that I like that others have made.
Making all of these maps does not restrict the creation of new material, but in fact it gets people interested about things outside the Tablelands and then that is when new material is made to further define and broaden the scope of the world that is Athas. I personally have already made plans since Brian made these maps to take the party that I DM out of the known region of Tyr and explore some of the areas that he has provided. We shall head East around the Storm and finally to the area that Ral made, the Sundra Peninsula.
But surelly, I'mcertainly not the only one who'd like to know what would have become of Athas cannonly speaking if TSR wouldn't have left the world to die.(Hmmm! What a strange choice of words. )
I was actually re-reading the adventure: Mystery of the Ancients. and well, it made me wonder when I read the end cover DM reference witch refers to the coming of a new Blue-age after a Gray-age.)
I think the Gray-age is quite near. Curelean Storm is just the begining(IMO)
Something to keep in mind as everyone develops these large areas: each grid rectangle is actually the size of the Tyr region. Now, consider how much variation in culture and geography there is in that region, and when you develop your own section, try to match that. Large homogenous areas are boring, not exciting.
I'm in agreement here. Each area should be looked at carefully, with different cultures. However, I'd feel that the Tyr Region, with the proximity to the Pristine Tower, and the effects of being ruled by the Sorcerer-Kings, *should* have more cultural diversety as well.
That said... I'd expect the following:
Grids B2 -> D2, B3 -> D3, A4 -> the Northwestern D4, B5 & C5, the Northeastern parts of B6, and the Northern part of C6 (most of everything that is part of the continent west of the Jagged Cliffs) should be part of the Tohr-Kreen Empire. That's right--with each block being the size of the Tyr Region, you're looking at one hell of a larger section of land dominated by the Kreen. Why so large? The Tohr-Kreen are noted for being extraordinarily expansionistic, and the Jagged Cliffs are all that have kept them from invading the Tablelands in force. I forget where it mentions, but somewhere I remember readong that the part of the Tohr-Kreen Empire that is visible on the Jagged Cliffs Region map has a population of Kreen equal to the entire population of the Tablelands (including extending up to the Last Sea), and it is explained to be a "minor distant outpost" of the Empire, on the fringes of the whole.
Grids: A7 -> D7, C8 and C9 should consist of the race described in the entry for Scarlet Wardens in Terrors of the Dead Lands by Athas.org. The "s’thag zagaths" -- described by TotDL as:
Enormous and crab-like, this eight-legged beast wears a deep red carapace. On one end, its head sports two whip-like antennae above large mandibles that open sideways to reveal sharp fangs. Opposite the head, a third antenna sprouts like a tail. Eight legs support the shelled body, their color shading to brown beneath the beast.
And of course the Deadlands are obvious and possibly the most pronounced feature in the continent. The rest of the map... who knows?
The maps have already won over one Overcouncil member, Brax I believe, who did a large triangular map of some unexplored part of Athas by using Bell's maps. Brax's map can be found on Grummore's website as well.
in regards to the social and cultural mixes of various regions I do like the idea of them being as diverse as the tablelands in some places, or as uniquely populated as the Kreen Empire, or even completely barren and devoid of any major races or cultures. If Athas is a dying world then some regions may be too barren and dead to support anything but undead. Overall I would say a good rule of thumb is that because of the unique environmental factors of Athas no race or culture should dominate more than 3 grid spaces. Each space being 450 x 350 miles that leaves a lot of room and something three times that in square miles is a very large amount of land. Not only that, what I’ve discovered as I fill out these regions is that there is a good deal of geographical barriers that isolate regions from one another whether it’s hundreds of miles of desert, silt, mountains, swamp, forest, jungle or even water. Thus I could see regions developing in ways similar to the Tablelands but perhaps without the unique historical events native to the Tablelands.
I placed the Sundra Peninsula in the eastern edge of the continent in regions G4 and G5. The maps that Ral made fit perfectly into that area right down to scale. Map 04 is the Anattan Wastes region developed by Dark Sun Rising. i don't know if Ral intended the Sundra Peninsula to be a peninsula in the Anattan wastes region or something even further out. i assumed it was more eastward due simply to the scale in which he drew it as well as it's general shape being similar to the landmass in G4 and G5. again, if people have placed it in different regions then that's just fine and there's no need to alter what you may have already set up in your campaign.
This is all really great input everyone! Keep it comin’! and again, I urge you all to do with these as you will and let your imagination run wild when using them to enlarge, expand and enrich your campaigns.
I would love it if I could get ahold of the original-sized maps you've created as well as the brush sets you are using (Adobe CS?), and get your permission to add to the maps.
I ask because I find more than one brain often creates more detail than just one would have come up with. This is especially true on large setting-based projects where there is just so much to detail that a few small areas recieve a whole lot of interesting and incredible detail, and the rest become more and more widely spaced in terms of content. (My own setting is suffering from this, so I took to marking areas as "cool" and "half-assed".)
the far northeastern edge of the Crimson Savannah gives way to the Eastern and Western Ironcrag Mountains as well as the southern tips of the Jungles of Cthuul. to the east is the northern edge of the Jagged Cliffs which further to the north opens up into deep canyons and gorges. this area is dominated by three large lakes and several other smaller lakes (not yet pictured) as well as several rivers.
as i fleshed out the map i imagined the northern portion is an empire ruled by a powerful cleric of rain known as the Storm King (perhaps an advanced being him/herself - though not sure if DS3 rules allow for advanced elemental beings like those found in Dragon Kings). there is a lot of rainfall in the mountains of this region and the storms are oftentimes violent and windy, thus it can be said that this area is still strong in the rain paraelement and is home to many who worship it (note also the total lack of silt). this empire is at war with the Kreen from the south and have erected forts and great walls to defend from the insectoid invaders that invade their lands. i also imagined that the Jagged Cliffs had ruins or lost dwellings that belonged to the halflings and that perhaps the Empire of Storm is an allie to aid them in the Kreen advance. perhaps in this area there are more lifeshaped items in use by the general populace, and iron (though abundant in the Ironcrags) is difficult to aquire due to the dark and twisted dwarves that live in the bowels of the mountains (making mining of the ore difficult without massive fortifications).
just thoughts, nothing is stone! enjoy everyone! and thanks again for all the encouragement. i'll pack up some of the materials and brushes i used to create these maps when i get the chance...i'm still perfecting them to a degree (you may note the slight scale change in map objects like mountains).
Brian,
I would love it if I could get ahold of the original-sized maps you've created as well as the brush sets you are using (Adobe CS?), and get your permission to add to the maps.
I ask because I find more than one brain often creates more detail than just one would have come up with. This is especially true on large setting-based projects where there is just so much to detail that a few small areas recieve a whole lot of interesting and incredible detail, and the rest become more and more widely spaced in terms of content. (My own setting is suffering from this, so I took to marking areas as "cool" and "half-assed".)
I have the images which he e-mailed me for those (larger than what he's showing here), available on my site. My site has them in a 640x640 bounding box, but it is possible to get them at their full (normal) size, and I can step you through the process. It's all in my Dark Sun Image Gallery, along with Dawnstealer's pics, and cyrus9a's maps.
Keep up the good work cause i am gonna print them all up and cover one of the walls in my gaming room in them lol:D
Btw, yes: the forthcoming epic supplement will feature all of Dragon King's advanced being progressions, including the option of becoming an elemental or paraelemental cleric advanced being, that includes rain.
Btw, yes: the forthcoming epic supplement will feature all of Dragon King's advanced being progressions, including the option of becoming an elemental or paraelemental cleric advanced being, that includes rain.
Eventually. My time is slipping through my fingers so quickly any more, it's become a real challenge just to finish my compilation of Avangion ideas for the Bureau...
You could set up everyone under a single grouping for e-mails and that way you did not have to send out and attach the maps several times- I don't know if you are already doing this but I thought I would let you know.
Love the Storm Cleric stuff- I think cleric AB's will be slightly more numerous, just due to the facts that there is no record of the SK's hunting down AB clerics and, I think, the process is not going to be as labor intensive, ie no big buildings or structures, as it is more of a 'divine' transformation.
I placed the Sundra Peninsula in the eastern edge of the continent in regions G4 and G5. The maps that Ral made fit perfectly into that area right down to scale. Map 04 is the Anattan Wastes region developed by Dark Sun Rising. i don't know if Ral intended the Sundra Peninsula to be a peninsula in the Anattan wastes region or something even further out. i assumed it was more eastward due simply to the scale in which he drew it as well as it's general shape being similar to the landmass in G4 and G5. again, if people have placed it in different regions then that's just fine and there's no need to alter what you may have already set up in your campaign.
This is all really great input everyone! Keep it comin’! and again, I urge you all to do with these as you will and let your imagination run wild when using them to enlarge, expand and enrich your campaigns.
Apparently my Sundered Regions didn't make the cut. Ah well.
thanks again for all your input! i'm currently working on refining my brush sets, so everyone that has asked me for copies for their use should be expecting them by the end of the week (you all may have noticed slight terrain changes from the previous maps to the current ones i've posted). i'm also working on setting up background templates that have the same texture and feel of the original print maps. once all that is done, i'll send out the color pallette i use, the backgrounds, the map elements and the brushes to everyone so ya'll can start goin' mappin' crazy as well - whether it be fleshing out areas within the grid regions already made, or entire grid regions on their own. just be sure to post what you do when you're done so everyone can see!
i really like the idea of empires ruled by powerful clerics (elemental or para-elemental). i was thinking of mapping out an area with a large empire of magma clerics as well. i'd agree that AB clerics would be more prevalent simply because the sorcerer-kings don't pay too much attention to them overall (not to mention that the more advanced a cleric becomes, the more he must remain in his elemental form, and the more time he must spend on the plane of his home element). i'd imagine these societies as strict theocracies in some ways, not necessarily evil, and not necessarily good as most elements are by their natures neutrally aligned.
anyway, i'll be posting up some more maps, and if anyone wants copies just head over to Xlorep's site and download them.
SYSANE: i got sort of confused as to the Sundra Peninsula that Ral did and your Sundered Peninsula. are they the same thing? i didn't leave yours out intentionally, i just confused the two names. post a link to your map and i'll incorporate it!
for those of you i haven't had a chance to mail maps to yet, ne'er fear! i'll be sending confirmation e-mails to ya'll, as well as setting up a mailing list too. more to come everyone...stay tuned!
Click here for the Sundered Regions
The only problem is that the Sundered Regions and the Anattan Wastes occupy the same conceptual "space"...both are "the far side of the Silt Sea, across from the Valley of the Cerulean Storm. I am thus not sure how one could go about merging both areas into the map.
I guess I'm SOL then. Which is a shame, but what can you do right?
Brian, don't forget Afghan's marvelous net-project, the Silt Archipelago, with beautiful map included, check here.
the one thing about Dark Sun Rising's Anattan Wastes region is that there isn't that much background info or history of that area (at least that i could find on their site or anywhere else)...whereas i'm assuming that you've fleshed out the details of the region you created much more. if everyone could come to a concensus i figure it'd be easy to shift/alter or move a few things around here and there.
Yes, I have out-line of the location in the Sundered Regions on the same site. I'll link it here for the end of the day.
far to the south of the Sundra Peninsula lies the Basalt Plains a scorched and highly volcanic region pocked by bubbling magma pools, sulpher springs, and endless stretches of basalt and hardened magma. there once was a great and powerful sea-faring kingdom here, a capitol of the Green Age that was beset by calamity...not from war...but from the heavens. The Cauldron is the result of a massive meteorite impact several thousand years ago. the impact was so devestating that it altered the face of the land forever. ash and dust was thrown miles into the air, once great cities were leveled in a massive firestorm and magma surged to the surface.
now the land is a hot and unforgiving place. The Cauldron is a seathing sea of magma many hundred miles in diameter. the cliffs and mountains surrounding form the impact crater, eroded over the ages by flows of lava and rare acidic rainfalls from the higher elevations. always the land is awash in a red glow, giving it a preternatural and hellish cast in the Athasian night. not much is left in this barren land...a few small oasis form the center of what little life clings to the blasted region.
several ruins dot the area, once great cities leveled by the blast and eroded to undescernible mounds by time and age...at the edge of a large salt flat, all that is left of an ancient bay or estuary, sits the City of Salt. the structures that remain in this vacant and haunted city are covered by a layer of crusted salt. at the southern edge of the city is what was once a harbor, the corroded and rotted wood planks and hulls of ships a sad testimony to the lost days of sea-faring...
The Sea of Glass is a vast expanse of melted silt, dust and sand surrounding The Cauldron. in some places it is smooth and unmarred, jagged and broken, irregular and oddly shaped or colored, or so thin that a traveler would fall through and be sliced to ribbons...
across the Sea of Glass is a large isle formed of high rocky peaks of hardened lava, at it's center is a high and ominous tower of black basalt. three massive lava seas dominate the southern region. huge flows of lava stretch across the Basalt Plains and surge over the cliffs, melting into the Sea of Glass they feed the massive and fiery pit of the Cauldron.
the heat of this area makes it nearly inhospitible to life. the sheer amount of hot, roiling magma heats the winds from the Sea of Silt to incredible temperatures and they sear across the lands like the exhalation of a mighty furnace, scorching flesh and lungs and burning away what meagre plant life clings to the black rock...
an updated composite map of athas with the new regions i've added. thanks again to everyone! your thoughts, ideas and critiques are inspirational.
if each grid region is 450 miles by 350 miles then each region has an overall surface area of 157,500 square miles!!! that's close to half the western united states! thus the continent itself is nearly 5,355,5000 square miles!!! compare that to the continental united states which has an overall area of 3,618,784 square miles.
that's a whole HELLUVA' lot of land! though still smaler in comparison to the overall size of the north and south american continent combined (not to mention the massive expanse of ocean between landmasses on earth).
anyway, just giving everyone an idea of just how much space we're dealing with. basically, there's plenty of room for everyone's ideas!
here is the furthest tip of the southern peninsula - a wind-swept land of rolling plains and red stone deserts with high mesas. the lowlands are flat and stretch out in every direction as far as the eye can see, broken periodically by spires of red sandstone and low plateaus.
the central part of this region is dominated by the Canyons of Cael, a series of gorges and deep ravines hewn into the red earth. the canyon is the result of aeons of slow erosion by a small river that flows from the peaks of the Redridge Mountains and flows down into the lowlands. it is at the bottom of this canyon that life thrives and there are several villages built along the sides and the bottom near the lakes.
at the southern most tip of the canyon is a deep sink hole, Deepdelve, into which the river flows. the waters wend their way deep into the bowels of the earth, carving countless underground cavers and cave systems.
US Census fact: 75% of the white population of America has never met a black person. Surprising but true.
where did you find this... there is no waht that that is even remotely true...
not these days.
i really don't know much about those numbers...but what i do know is that 98.7643% of the people of the Tablelands have probably never seen a lizardman. :P
:heehee , I think you are off on that one too. It's probably more like 99.95%. Unless you count Ssurrans.
I love it Brian!
I think the simplicity of all of these maps, their elegance, and the fact they don't have weird stuff like Sysane's dark cupola in them (sorry Sysane but I don't like that idea), I believe ensures that these maps are and will be the most extensive and widely used expansion on the current "known world" of Athas.
I predict that in the future we'll see a few net-projects of some kind that will describe this or that far-away region found in Brian's maps.
I think the simplicity of all of these maps, their elegance, and the fact they don't have weird stuff like Sysane's dark cupola in them (sorry Sysane but I don't like that idea), I believe ensures that these maps are and will be the most extensive and widely used expansion on the current "known world" of Athas.
Thats alright. There's some of your material that I'm not to fond of either :P ;)
Thats alright. There's some of your material that I'm not to fond of either :P ;)
Its not you per say, but rather the type of thing you introduced in your expansion. Others can do the same with theirs.
If Afghan had introduced a city in his Silt Archipelago project that was entirely made of iron, and saying its the reason why iron is so scarce these days, I would not have liked it either. Its another weird concept that, if initially exposed in a TSR book, would still have felt weird and wrong somehow.
For example, I accept lifeshaping and lifeshapes as parts of DS, but to hundreds or thousands of fans its weird, just like I find your cupola weird. So these fans ignore Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs and turn a blind eye to any mention of lifeshaping.
Its not you per say, but rather the type of thing you introduced in your expansion. Others can do the same with theirs.
If Afghan had introduced a city in his Silt Archipelago project that was entirely made of iron, and saying its the reason why iron is so scarce these days, I would not have liked it either. Its another weird concept that, if initially exposed in a TSR book, would still have felt weird and wrong somehow.
For example, I accept lifeshaping and lifeshapes as parts of DS, but to hundreds or thousands of fans its weird, just like I find your cupola weird. So these fans ignore Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs and turn a blind eye to any mention of lifeshaping.
I was just kidding. I don't expect everyone to like my expansion. I will admit that if I ever tried to do that map again (hint, hint brian ;) ) that I would make the area of the Dark Cupola half its current size.
Like Brian proposed, but no one responded to the proposal, it would be better if those regions that have two versions, like IIUC the Anattan Wastes and the Sundered Region, be offered in two versions still.
Sometimes we'll have two very very good ideas...about the same geographical region, so we should not have to choose which is best but instead offer both options.
This is not a diss of your ideas, Sysane, but rather applies to everyone:
Like Brian proposed, but no one responded to the proposal, it would be better if those regions that have two versions, like IIUC the Anattan Wastes and the Sundered Region, be offered in two versions still.
Sometimes we'll have two very very good ideas...about the same geographical region, so we should not have to choose which is best but instead offer both options.
yes definitely, i think everyone should have the ability to choose between versions of regions, or even make a version of your own. Sysane's map is truer to the actual art style and presentation of the box maps, and in actuality fits better in the grid region; whereas the Anattan Wastes have their own unique visual style and only fit partially due to the fact that their eastern edge is a continuation of the Sea of Silt (which from the world composite, is actually a land bridge leading to the sundered peninsula and not a silt estuary or body of silt). i included both simply because a lot of time and effort was put into each version, and i was certain that many here have integrated one or the other into their campaign. i myself have my own working version of that region, and i hope that everyone uses these maps to their own advantage to suit their own specific campaign needs. :D
the southern end of The Cauldron is similar to the northern region - an arid, volcanic region scorched by ash storms and lava. the dunes are a mixture of sand and ash, giving them a grayish cast. further south is a flat expanse of ashen plains that eventually gives way to the Sea of Silt. a few oasis dot this barren region, as well as ancient ruins and old, long-forgotten roads. to the south east, across the Sea of Glass is the Molten Plateau. this area is highly dangerous and inhospitable. ash storms and lava flows are constant dangers, and the eruption of volcanoes is common place in the high black peaks. it all flows into a large lake of molten rock, Lake Heatwell, which then spills into the Sea of Glass and into The Cauldron. a lonly ruin sits atop the Molten Plateau...the capitol city of the ancient Green Age empire. it now lies under a thick layer of ash, and it's walls are nearly indescernible from the large basalt stones in the surrounding environs, the only thing that would hint at its nature are the high, monolithic towers (some crumbled) that rise at the center of the dead city.
southward over the Sea of Silt is a series of islands and small archipelago that are home to the descendants of the peoples who survived the meteorite impact long ago who have thrived in a small and secluded valley on the main island. the northern most island has an abundant iron mine as well that the peoples use to fashion tools and items. the city near the lake harkens back to the psionic mastery of the Green Age, and is in many ways much like Saragar (without the paranoia and xenophobia). several psionic artifacts still function, though over time the denizens have slowly forgotten how these items were made. they're existence is peaceful and quiet, being so far removed from the rest of the world they have no worries of invading races, war and the like. Greenhaven Isle is truly one of the only paradises on Athas...a paradise that lies over 2500 miles east of the Tablelands...
Then please Brian, I'd like to see your region. I never realized the Anattan Wastes did not fit the planetary map...
i'll post it up after the rest of the regions. i figured two versions of that location is good enough - each working in its own right - and like i said i didn't want to completely discard what had already been made by other members of the community; and who's to say we can't alter a few regions here and there to accomodate? my version is actually pretty close to the Anattan Wastes save that the eastern edge is a dune and not silt which then leads into the land bridge area in region F5. that's really the only difference overall.
B3, B4, C1, C2, C3v2, D2, E4, G6[1]. Am I missing some?
i hope to have several more by monday. i'll focus on the Kreen Empire - regions B5, C4 and C5! thanks to Pavek here on the boards i also managed to get my hands on a full sized WORLD MAP, not just the continent we're dealing with here...but the entire world!! mWuaHahahahaha!! i <3 cartography. :P
anyway, i'm pretty sure that the brushes, as well as the map color palette i've been using are final; so for those of you who have PHOTOSHOP CS on hand fire me an e-mail and i'll send you a copy of the .PSD file along with instructions on how to create and save your Athasian brush sets! then we all can go mappin' crazy. i encourage every cartographer here to choose a region they like and flesh it out, OR to pick a region that has already been made and elaborate on a site or area that interests you - i.e. Greenhaven Isle or the Storm Empire or wherever!
i'll also be sure to post up the world map that Pavek supplied so that those who want to begin exploring and expanding other parts of Athas can go ahead and do so.
i'm thinking of also supplying map bases that everyone can work from. basically i'm working on making all of my methods and tricks to map creation public so everyone can join in or just flesh out areas on their own.
i'm incredibly happy with all the feedback and enthusiasm that everyone has shown here. Dark Sun was, and probably always will be one of my most favorite AD&D campaign settings (to which i'm sure you all will agree) so it has brought me great pleasure to really bring the world and its locales alive for everyone to share in and elaborate on. thanks a ton everyone. more to come...stay tuned! :D
For those that want to see the maps in their full size on my site, currently, you have to make a slight change in the location bar for your web browser.
I will use the map for the Iron Crag region Brian did as an example. Now, it is set to fit inside a 640x640 "bounding box"--making it so that any image that is too tall or too wide (or both) gets shrunk automatically down to fit within 640 pixels on it's longest side, and keeping the dimensional perspective it normally would have (so things don't appear stretched). To stop it from doing that, go to the end of the location bar for that page (where it has the 'http' and webpage address). At the end, there is the following:
&scaled&scalesize=640delete (cut) that. make sure you include the ampersand (&) in front of "scaled".
So, the link above would normally be: (scroll to the end of the code line below)
http://darkhelm.org/tiki-browse_image.php?galleryId=2&sort_mode=name_asc&desp=20&offset=0&imageId=246&scaled&scalesize=640the corrected form would be: (scroll to the end of the code line below)
http://darkhelm.org/tiki-browse_image.php?galleryId=2&sort_mode=name_asc&desp=20&offset=0&imageId=246That will make the map be full-sized. This trick works for every map on my site, or any pictures that would be too big in general.
I didn't have to do that, in order to see them in full size. There is something you can click on that will take you to the full sized map after you get to the bound one.
Ahh. Important to know. I never bothered to look to see if there was a link in the page itself :P
here's the version of map region E5 that i had started. as you can see there isn't too much of a difference overall, save that there is a bit more landmass than the other two versions. i hadn't really taken the time to flesh it out that much because i had found the other versions and just went with them instead. anyway, i hope to have another region done soon! stay tuned!!
thanks again to everyone!
First time I read this thread. I dont know why I didnt read it, but MAN that's great maps. Could you product the standard one, known to all I mean the known tablelands and hinterlands so we could add them to your already existing map? (in the standard size of your maps).
Btw --------> It seem that A4 and B4 doesnt fit on the east A4 and west B4 border. Is it normal?
Well done!
Prelude of my idea
I’ve always thought that in the Blue-Age, what is now the Jagged Cliff region, was surely the greatest coral reef found anywhere on Athas which make sense since most of the Rhulisti population built their empires close to it. (In that age traveling distances wasn’t a problem as much as it is nowadays. So the Tyr region was considered close.) That said…I think I found a second coral formation that could have been the second biggest structure.
That would be area E1.
If you compare both maps (Green Age: map1 and Now-Age: map2) you will see that in area E1 the strange mountain formation on map2 stretching from south to north doesn’t appear on map1. That’s because in my opinion it was under water then but not very deep.
Now how could it have been an underwater tropical environment so close to the ice cap on its left?? (As you can observe, the ice cap doesn’t expand to area F1 like it logically/ symmetrically should do.)
The answer lies under water
E1: The now
The Land
To make the region’s history short the coral range had been protected from the brown tide by a force unknown to this day. Imagine your hands holding a relatively large fruit, your wrist touching each other while your fingers a spread upward and toward each other as if to be sure you wouldn’t drop the fruit. At the same time, your fingers are about to cross each other but the fruit is too big for that. Well your hand represents the brown tide (mountains) which was repulsed by a mystic force hence forming the gargantuan shape. From high in the sky it looks like the mouth of a god-size beast with huge teeth about to close on each other. Inside these hollow shapes is a forest of mutated coral of all kind and shape: some small, some the size of a small mountain. A labyrinth of canyon-like channels are busting with life often creating natural tunnels reaching cave chambers criss-crossing each other. 30% of those tunnels are submerges by the marshes though. Speaking of which: The only difference other than the shapes and sizes of the strange coral formations, is there are not submerged in water like an ocean would do. But in 80% of all the lowest part are covered by marshes.
More to come…….
The races
Flying humanoid with elven/Halfling features with talons replacing there foot. Each individual has at least one innate mystic ability.
A highly intelligent Eel like creature who as learn to shape weapons for the purpose of ‘’shooting’’ their self produced electrical energies. (They need that device to channel their self-produce voltage-energies to discharge from a distance otherwise they can only discharge with touch attacks)
Athasian Sesheyen.
More to come….
Places of interest
Ruins of the Blue-Age
More to come….
Northeast of the Ironcrags and the Empire of Storm lies the Northern Highlands. a place of low lying marshes and moors; high rounded mountains; deep, silent woods, and deep canyons carved by rains.
this region is also the location of the ancient city of Dunswich, one time home to Albeorn, Slayer of Elves. After the Cleansing Wars, and the destruction wrought upon Athas by defiling magic, this once great trade city fell to ruin. the oceans dried up, the dense temperate forest withered and died and a great blight killed many of the peoples of this once great nation.
after a millenia or so, the rains from the Highland Crag Mountains nourished the land back to health, creating marshes and wetlands as well as further eroding the canyon that lies at the center of this region. the rain water runs into the Sea of Silt to create a large body of fresh water, as well as a vast expanse of thick, boggy mudflat. the area has been rife with fuedal wars over the past century or so; but has recently seen a resurgance and an era of peace and enlightenment. a great king united many of the warring nations under one rule and named the capitol city New Dunswich in honor of the silent ruins overlooking the Tannen Marshlands. this kingdom is comprised of many different races and peoples and is now expanding out and exploring regions to the west and south beyond the Northern Highlands, though none of the exploration parties have returned...
i like the reef idea a lot though, and may have to incorporate it into the region you specified (i wasn't planning on doing a map of that region, focusing instead on the major landmasses/bodies of water). great stuff!
planetary map scaled up to fit the Distant Paths continental map...
planetary map composite with grid regions...
from the looks of it Athas is approximately 9,450 miles in circumference compared to earth's circumference of 24,902 miles (at the equator) and the moon's circumference of 6,782 miles. thus, Athas is about 3,000 miles wider than earth's moon.
that's still a lot of surface area to deal with.
several questions that have formed in my mind as i've worked on all of this is, to what regional extent were the Cleansing Wars? was Rajaat's war world-spanning, extending from continent to continent? did the Champions go to every corner of the globe to eradicate every member of every species they were assigned to destroy? or was it relagated primarily to the largest continent on Athas? could goblins and orcs and trolls exist in other parts of the world? how far did the rebirth races migrate? if you consider the pristine tower the "mesopotamia" of Athas then how far could each race go over the span of the Green Age that followed? are there some continents on Athas that are yet unexplored? or was it entirely mapped by the time of the Cleansing Wars? it seems reasonable that the focus of the campaign is on the tablelands and the Tyr region simply because i'd imagine that the champions would want to stay near to the item that gave them their power - the Pristine Tower - and would simply leave the rest of the world to its own demise/means. if the Cleansing Wars were indeed worldwide, then what is left on the far-off continents? are there lands that are completely uninhabited by any sentient race? or lands where a sentient species evolved from a animal ancestor? is the Pristine Tower the only one of its kind? or were there others created?
all is food for thought and would certainly be fun to flesh out and consider. it really shows how little is known of the rest of the world which leaves us a lot of room to really be creative as to what other peoples and places exist far and away of the Tyr region...entire empires still functioning on Green Age technology...others discovering magic for the first time...the possiblities are nearly endless...
from the looks of it Athas is approximately 9,450 miles in circumference compared to earth's circumference of 24,902 miles (at the equator) and the moon's circumference of 6,782 miles. thus, Athas is about 3,000 miles wider than earth's moon.
Sweet. I like that the whole planet is being taken into consideration now.
several questions that have formed in my mind as i've worked on all of this is, to what regional extent were the Cleansing Wars? was Rajaat's war world-spanning, extending from continent to continent? did the Champions go to every corner of the globe to eradicate every member of every species they were assigned to destroy? or was it relagated primarily to the largest continent on Athas? could goblins and orcs and trolls exist in other parts of the world? how far did the rebirth races migrate? if you consider the pristine tower the "mesopotamia" of Athas then how far could each race go over the span of the Green Age that followed?
Conceivably. If so, there's a chance that there's be more Champions. I guess it depends on how far-reaching the Pristine Races from the Rebirth had spread throught the world. The races that should not have any Champions assigned to them are the Halflings (obviously), Kreen (any variation), and Nikaal -- as these were, I believe the three races that were claimed to have existed on Athas originally. All other races are formed from the Pristine Tower (I don't think the Ssurran are, but I can't be certian--I thought they were a derivation from Nikaal). Oh, there's also the Gith that aren't a Pristine race. But they could have still ended up with a Champion to annihilate them too.
are there some continents on Athas that are yet unexplored? or was it entirely mapped by the time of the Cleansing Wars? it seems reasonable that the focus of the campaign is on the tablelands and the Tyr region simply because i'd imagine that the champions would want to stay near to the item that gave them their power - the Pristine Tower - and would simply leave the rest of the world to its own demise/means. if the Cleansing Wars were indeed worldwide, then what is left on the far-off continents? are there lands that are completely uninhabited by any sentient race? or lands where a sentient species evolved from a animal ancestor? is the Pristine Tower the only one of its kind? or were there others created?
Interesting questions. I'd say that the races from the Pristine Tower had plenty of time to explore and settle the wide reaches of Athas. Still, there could be a continent comprised of Halflings decended from the Rhulisti that still have the knowledge/capabilities of that ancient race. There's a good chance that somewhere there is a Nikaal empire out there (as they were reported...I forget by whom...to be one of the original Blue Age races), and of course, the main continent, west of the Jagged Cliffs, should be predominantly filled with Kreen. I'd say that the vast majority of the Pristine Races are still on the main continent.
And I've considered that there could still be areas on Athas that are undergoing the Cleansing Wars--after all, if there were more Champions, they obviously didn't take part in locking up Rajaat--and wouldn't have become Sorcerer-Kings. So regions where the Cleansing Wars are still happening--with armies led by a Champion of Rajaat tasked to annihilate a particular race, and for some reason or another has yet to accomplish this mission (there's plenty of examples of the known Champions intentionally slowing or even halting the progress of their war for one reason or another. I've always liked Rise and Fall's take that Myron was keeping the Troll population constant, and had more or less become addicted to the pleasure of killing trolls, so much that he stopped his army from killing any and did all the kills himself). Without Rajaat in the picture, these Champions could have all done something similar, and aren't being held in check. Imagine regions of Athas where specific races flee in terror from the approach of an impending army and an immortal being that revels in butchering them--what would a region that still is under the effects of the Cleansing Wars really be like?
Regions where the Pristine Races didn't reach, for one reason or another, and more specifically, regions where Rajaat's sorcery wasn't taught, would be decidedly lacking in Arcane spellcasters as well. The books do make it clear that Arcane magic isn't instinctive, it isn't natural. In fact, it is a blight to the natural order of things.
Another possibility is regions that are populated by races that were lifeshaped beings made by the Rhulisti, that have become full-on races in and of themselves, with bizarre abilities under their control.
I'd particularly say that the races that are known to have been wiped out by the Champions successfully (Oronis didn't really succeed, and Hamanu technically didn't either with the Last Troll still around) should stay dead. It just wouldn't "feel" right to me to have a group of surviving Gnomes out there--Gallard/Nibenay would, in my opinion, be aware of their existence, and would know he didn't complete it (then again, maybe he didn't really finish them all off...) Maybe there still are some Goblins out there--but I'd say that all that is left of Pixies is those pixie-head undead things in the Deadlands.
all is food for thought and would certainly be fun to flesh out and consider. it really shows how little is known of the rest of the world which leaves us a lot of room to really be creative as to what other peoples and places exist far and away of the Tyr region...entire empires still functioning on Green Age technology...others discovering magic for the first time...the possiblities are nearly endless...
Well, I threw out some possibilities I can see.
Thus elves, dwarves, and some goblinoid races at the very least, would have followed.
Where they went, Champions followed.
Now the question becomes...did all Rebirth races emigrate with the humans to those far-away places?
Apparently, the trolls didn't, if we are to believe RaFoaDK. They traveled from north of Urik to as far as Troll Grave Chasm.
though it is definitely possible, and would lead to some cool gaming experiences, to have entire areas dominated by the current races...an empire of elves or dwarves can lead to some very interesting ideas much like the Kreen empire...especially if they've retained much of the Green Age psionic technology OR have managed to research and discover magic on their own. would this lead to different sorts of advanced beings? Rajaat's experiments focused on humans and the altering of humans into powerful entities; but it doesn't necessarily mean that an elven mage on a remote continent couldn't discover similar methods. what would an elvan advanced being look like? in a game i ran several years ago, she was a six-armed, ebon-skinned sorceress...a facsimile of Lolth...
because there are no gods on Athas by no means dictates that there cannot be parallel or similar beings to the deities of other campaing settings...it's just that on Athas they have mortal roots and to all intents and purposes are still mortal (in the sense that they can be destroyed/killed).
i do like life-shaped creations that have gained their own "self-awareness". this would make for a great location and culture. it is also why i like the idea of the Athasian illithid being a life-shaped organism OR halflings that have fused with their life-shapes and become something else entirely. i envision a Rhul-Thuan society that has merged completely with their life-shapes and become almost a living hive mind as a result...sort of like borg...that assimilate other beings into the whole...
overall, as i flesh out the planetary view of Athas i keep several things in mind. the first is that Athas is a battleground for elemental forces. this seems to be a running theme throughout all the supplemental material as well as material devised and created by the community. Athas is a world of the elemental forces of nature...not gods or dieties...but the raw powers of creation. that being said, the idea of balance between elements also comes into play; and it is obvious as to what happens when the elemental powers that be are out of balance...the result is a world racked by strife and decay...a dying and barren place. this leads to the second thematic element of the campaign setting...magic...a "man-made" element that has lead to the imbalance of the natural order and the struggle of all elements to keep their foothold overall. this is akin to the environmental problems that we face today as a result of pollution, over-population, and over-use of precious resources. Athas is a reflection in some ways of our own time.
i can imagine locations free of sorcerer-kings, but these areas would not necessarily be any better or worse. the Empire of Storms is an example. the Storm Queen is not a happy or benevolent ruler by any means, just because she is a powerful immortal aligned with the para-element of rain does not obligate her to be nice. such is the nature of the elements, neither good nor evil per se, but simply part of the necessary order of things. rains can be beneficial, bringing water to the dry and thirsty land, but they can also be dangerous - floods, violent storms, etc. the same could be said of any element overall. magma is destructive at first, but it also creates new land. fire is a destroyer, burning and consuming organic matter and such; but it makes way for new life and it provides warmth and heat for cooking and metal working, etc. i feel that these themes are what underly the world of Athas and in turn make it the harsh and seemingly unforgiving place that it is. this doesn't make it an evil and uncaring world, it makes it more natural to some degree. finally, there is the theme of survival. again, all of nature is about surviving the harsh extremes of the environment. the role of evolution on earth is to improve upon systems OR to adapt to changes in the environment. survival in and of itself is lawless and amoral. the lion does not question its ethics when it eats the gazelle or the zebra...it merely is part of the natural order of things...it eats because it must to survive. thus, Athas is not a place of black and white ethics...but a place of grays and shades of color that are left to interpretation (this can be seen in much of the novels written for the setting).
in the end it is all determined individually as to how all of it fits into the campaigns of each DM.
in my campaign world i allow plane-hopping and spelljamming. it's primarily why i've taken the time to expand the overall world view. some would scorn this practice; but i have weighted it with the themes and flavor of the campaign as a whole. for example, in ordinary wildspace an envelope of air surrounds a body as it travels from one planet to another. this air is a factor of the mass of the object and will last for only a certain amount of time. in my Athasian cosmological view wildspace is the realm of the quasi-element of Vaccum and there is NO AIR. the air bubble common to regular wildspace is quickly sucked into the vaccuum of space, thus those who choose to travel the void must find magical/psionic means to keep the air in/on their vessal. in the spelljammer campaign the sun of each crystal sphere can be a literal sun or it can be a myriad of things - elemental portals to fire or radiance, living gods, etc. in my cosmology the Dark Sun is actually a massive collection of all para/quasi/elemental energies, a convergence of matter and the raw powers of nature. in the Blue Age the sun was influenced more by the positive energies of the inner planes, thus life was more abundant on Athas...but when the halflings built the Pristine Tower they shifted it away from the positive and more toward the negative, ushering in the Green Age and the Rebirth. Then when Rajaat enacted the Cleansing Wars and the sun changed again, it shifted further toward the negative and thus the world was greatly changed. in terms of planar travel, Athas is accesible; but the doorways/portals to and from it are incredibly rare and hard to find (from a Planar perspective). not only that, but travel via magical/psionic methods is incredibly difficult because of the presence of the Gray (and would also explain why naturally occuring portals are also rare). to me the Gray is a phenomenon that is a result of the very nature of the Athasian Sphere...it is a crystal sphere like any other, but it is at the heart of elemental energies...aligned more to the inner planes than other spheres that are closer to the outer. thus the rules are more "natural" and not necessarily as fantastic as those of more godly spheres.
in the end this is merely my own cosmology, but it allows me to unify all the different systems that i grew up playing, DMing and ultimately enjoying into a grand scheme that can lead to adventures to far-off lands, far off worlds, and far-off realms of time/space. :P :D
Considering that, I think that every Champion would know weither or not he had eradicated all members of the species he was to cleanse, baring powerful spells and psionic powers meant to hide creatures from scrying and divination.
When Keltis stoped his war he should have been persuaded he had eradicated all lizardmen, not knowing that the Mind Lords were protecting the small Last Sea colony from his sight. Oronis to this day must still believe it so.
What I mean by all of this is that, if there's a wemic kingdom somewhere outside the Tablelands, Tecktuktitlay knew about it (before he was killed). Its a simple matter for a Champion to expend the energy to find out.
definitely. if the eradication of a race was all-important to each champion, then why did Borys not destroy all the remaining dwarves after he reached the heights of dragonhood? it could have been easily done. i think that after the champions realized what Rajaat's plan was they decided to chuck the Cleansing War idea and just take the power for themselves. that's not to say they didn't retain whatever prejudices they may have had toward their respective race; but rather felt the energy wasn't necessary and moreover with their positions secured, felt that there wasn't any need to continue. i wouldn't go so far as to say that a champion that didn't finish killing their given race would feel restless or incomplete, otherwise the remaining Champions would have continued even after the imprisonment of Rajaat...
definitely. if the eradication of a race was all-important to each champion, then why did Borys not destroy all the remaining dwarves after he reached the heights of dragonhood? it could have been easily done. i think that after the champions realized what Rajaat's plan was they decided to chuck the Cleansing War idea and just take the power for themselves. that's not to say they didn't retain whatever prejudices they may have had toward their respective race; but rather felt the energy wasn't necessary and moreover with their positions secured, felt that there wasn't any need to continue. i wouldn't go so far as to say that a champion that didn't finish killing their given race would feel restless or incomplete, otherwise the remaining Champions would have continued even after the imprisonment of Rajaat...
The Champions all agreed to stop persuing Rajaat's plan after they had rebelled against him. Rajaat's plan also included the annihilation of Humans, which they seemed rather against -- they also saw the madness of Rajaat's plan. So, even if they are predisposed to annihilating those races, the Sorcerer-Kings have kept themselves under control. Now... Borys might have done a LOT of damage to some of the Dwarves during his rampage period, but after he gained consciousness again, he, like the other SK's, abstained as best he could. Look at how uncommon the races that the Sorcerer-Kings were supposed to be annihilating were in their cities (Hamanu as an exception with regards to Humanity--but even then, he seemed to be rather violent and aggressive with OTHER humans outside of Urik...) Andropinis made life so difficult for Elves that they avoided Balic more often than not.Kalak, Tek, Abalach-Re, and Nibs all had little to worry about. Borys didn't have all that many Dwarves in Ur-Draxa. And Hamanu never was all that welcoming to outsiders in his city-state. Lalai-puy doesn't exactly attract as many Aaracokra as she would like (almost like she has a repulsive quality that makes them not want to go near, despite Gulg's open invitation to their race). And of course, Oronis and Daskinor have little worries... or rather, Daskinor seems to worry as much or as little as his insanity dictates, while ORonis feels constant guilt for what he had done.
to the north of the Canyons of Cael is a land once inhabited by Wemics. the rolling plains of this region were once home to a great nation ruled by tribal leaders from over 30 different tribes (somewhat Native-American in culture). when Tectuktitlay invaded the lands the peaceful nation of druids and hunters were ill prepared. now all that remains are long stretches of silent dunes and scrub plain. in the aftermath of the war, the secondary race of the region rose to power and now has a growing nation that spans the western length of the region, the heart of which is the city Uyu'Mahn.
the dune that covers a majority of the eastern part of the peninsula is avoided by most. at its heart is the Sea of Bones, miles of half-exposed wemic skeletons bleached by the sun and scoured by the sands. whether this was the site of the final battle or an ancient burial area is not known.
The Sinking Mountains to the west are so named because the silt is constantly shifting around. thus, some peaks disappear while others rise. within this mountain range, at the heart of a large mud flat is the Pearl Shrine, an edifice dating back to the Blue Age of Athas. strange creatures live and thrive in the blue waters surrounding the shrine and the area has a pall of age and mystery.
The Black Rift is a deep canyon gouged into the land from the Dead Lands to the North.
Actually...did not by the way.
to the north of the Canyons of Cael is a land once inhabited by Wemics. the rolling plains of this region were once home to a great nation ruled by tribal leaders from over 30 different tribes (somewhat Native-American in culture). when Tectuktitlay invaded the lands the peaceful nation of druids and hunters were ill prepared. now all that remains are long stretches of silent dunes and scrub plain. in the aftermath of the war, the secondary race of the region rose to power and now has a growing nation that spans the western length of the region, the heart of which is the city Uyu'Mahn.
the dune that covers a majority of the eastern part of the peninsula is avoided by most. at its heart is the Sea of Bones, miles of half-exposed wemic skeletons bleached by the sun and scoured by the sands. whether this was the site of the final battle or an ancient burial area is not known.
The Sinking Mountains to the west are so named because the silt is constantly shifting around. thus, some peaks disappear while others rise. within this mountain range, at the heart of a large mud flat is the Pearl Shrine, an edifice dating back to the Blue Age of Athas. strange creatures live and thrive in the blue waters surrounding the shrine and the area has a pall of age and mystery.
The Black Rift is a deep canyon gouged into the land from the Dead Lands to the North.
Hmm, I actually quite like this bit of fluff. My gut tells me that it would seem more fitting in E4 or E6, though. I think this mostly stems from the idea that Barien, the forgotten Champion of the Illithids (unofficial), in my mind was forgotten because of his primary battlegrounds being so far removed from the Tyr Region. Going mostly from Pennarin's writings, my assumption would be that this would be in E8. If Tec battled this far south then the plausibility of that seems weakened. This in turn weakens the whole theory on illithids on athas, and altogether that just sucks giant donkey. So anyhoo...
besides the rant, great work.
Great map but tell me... what would be this secondary race you mention
Actually...did not by the way.
i omitted mentioning the race simply because i figured i'd leave it for everyone to think about. i was thinking humans or elves right off the top of my head, but thought that another race like tareks or something might be cool to have. what do you think? what race would most likely live in harmony with wemics? i imagined that whatever race it is, it was primitive when the wemics ruled this area and when they died out, it was allowed to flourish and develope on its own...
Hmm, I actually quite like this bit of fluff. My gut tells me that it would seem more fitting in E4 or E6, though. I think this mostly stems from the idea that Barien, the forgotten Champion of the Illithids (unofficial), in my mind was forgotten because of his primary battlegrounds being so far removed from the Tyr Region. Going mostly from Pennarin's writings, my assumption would be that this would be in E8. If Tec battled this far south then the plausibility of that seems weakened. This in turn weakens the whole theory on illithids on athas, and altogether that just sucks giant donkey. So anyhoo...
besides the rant, great work.
pennarin had actually mentioned to me that the Hiriman Highlands, and the illithid empire would exist in grid regions E6 and E7 on a plateau at the edge of the Eastern Deadlands (though some have suggested scaling down the Dead Lands region because it is too big). we also thought of areas D6 and D7 as another possible location (in the green age it was right on the edge of the ocean and backed by mountains to the northwest). admittedly, i first thought of placing the wemic lands in area E4 (the northern anattan wastes) OR on the land bridge in region F5...basically somewhere where there was a lot of scrub plains. i just imagined a Green Age with areas of rolling savannah prowled by nomadic and shamanistic hunters and tribesmen...
in the end i simply put them in area C8 though it may and definitely can change. ;)
pennarin had actually mentioned to me that the Hiriman Highlands, and the illithid empire would exist in grid regions E6 and E7 on a plateau at the edge of the Eastern Deadlands
Even more reason for Tecs campaign to be further north.
(though some have suggested scaling down the Dead Lands region because it is too big). we also thought of areas D6 and D7 as another possible location (in the green age it was right on the edge of the ocean and backed by mountains to the northwest).
I would most definately agree w/ this. Isn't the official size somewhere around 400 square miles? This would most assuredly move the illithid lands westward - (looking at the green age map) into D7, I'd say. That peninsula looks like the perfect place, as it's also isolated by the mountain range slightly to the northwest.
admittedly, i first thought of placing the wemic lands in area E4
See, E4. That's the way to go.
i omitted mentioning the race simply because i figured i'd leave it for everyone to think about. i was thinking humans or elves right off the top of my head, but thought that another race like tareks or something might be cool to have. what do you think? what race would most likely live in harmony with wemics? i imagined that whatever race it is, it was primitive when the wemics ruled this area and when they died out, it was allowed to flourish and develope on its own...
I particuarly like this idea, anywho the race that immediatly popped into my head where the dromites, I really can see the wemics hunting them as one of their more savage/brutal/barbaric rituals, that also served the purpose of keeping the dromites in check.
I also like the idea of having the dromites not only seperate from the thor-kreen but also far far away if they are to be included in athas at all.
I know I know its not very fleshed out but what do you expect for 1:30 in the morning
coincidentally, i began working on this area of the map just as i received an e-mail from METHVEZEM here on the boards in regards to his fleshing out of the Brown Lands region of the continental map, areas B6 > C6, B7 and B8 respectively.
before i received his e-mail, as i was working, i remembered someone mentioning on the boards a region dominated by Drake Cults and the powerful elemental clerics that worshipped them. i really dug this idea, and began fleshing out this particular area to fit that idea. i imagined a series of independant theocratic city-states ruled by powerful high priests of the various elements. these priests had the ability to summon and control ancient drakes of their given element via psionic artifacts from the Green Age (psionically enchanted "Orbs of Drake-kind" so to speak). i envisioned each city-state at constant war with the city-state of its opposing element, and the large stretch of rocky badlands that dominates the southern stretch of this region was a battleground for various elemental factions. when i received the e-mail from METHVEZEM and PENNARIN i was pleasantly surprised to find that they too had already fleshed out this area along the same lines. great minds do indeed think alike! i took the map that they had sketched out on their own and incorporated the elements together on this version you see here. place names, cities, as well as certain geographic features from that map were used to fill out and create this particular map. mad props goes to METHVEZEM for the background material and map that he provided. i foresee this region as being a really great area to build out and expand upon. i'm currently working on the northern region of the Brown Lands as well according to what METHVEZEM provided, hopefully i'll have it done later today, or by tomorrow sometime. great job everyone!!
and lastly, i think i may be moving the wemic lands to region E4 like i had originally thought, that leaves us to determine what race existed before the new one in region C8. i like the dromites idea, but to be honest, i have absolutely NO CLUE as to what a dromite is or what it looks like. admittedly, i'm an ol' skool gamer, and all material and campaign supplements i have and own are all 2nd ed (please don't kill me
) thus, being the ol' geezer i am i still run all my games in 2nd ed. (all my players are 2nd ed. folks too, and none of us have the 3rd ed. books) :p that being said any new monsters and such for 3rd ed. are unknown to me, so PLEASE fill me in!! *ahem* anyway, that's my confession...hopefully i'm not banished. ;)
more to come...stay tuned!
before i received his e-mail, as i was working, i remembered someone mentioning on the boards a region dominated by Drake Cults and the powerful elemental clerics that worshipped them. i really dug this idea, and began fleshing out this particular area to fit that idea.
LOL!!
I must be the one who posted that initial bit of info on the boards, since I'm the only one who read Meth's net-project.
when i received the e-mail from METHVEZEM and PENNARIN i was pleasantly surprised to find that they too had already fleshed out this area along the same lines.
The circle is completed. My work is done.
Here is another dromite (beware: dress attire is atypical):
Here is the flavor-deprived SRD description of the dromite:
DROMITES
• +2 Charisma, –2 Strength, –2 Wisdom
• Monstrous Humanoid: Dromites are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person.
• Small: As a Small creature, a dromite gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but it uses smaller weapons than humans use, and its lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
• Dromite base land speed is 20 feet.
• Chitin: A dromite’s skin is hardened, almost like an exoskeleton, and grants the character a +3 natural armor bonus to AC and one of the following kinds of resistance to energy: cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5, or sonic 5. The player chooses what type of energy resistance is gained when the character is created. (This choice also dictates which caste the dromite belongs to.) This natural energy resistance stacks with any future energy resistance gained through other effects.
• Naturally Psionic: Dromites gain 1 bonus power point at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
• Psi-Like Ability: 1/day—energy ray. A dromite always deals the kind of energy damage that its chitin has resistance to (for example, a dromite who has resistance to cold 5 deals cold damage with its energy ray). Manifester level is equal to 1/2 Hit Dice (minimum 1st). The save DC is Charisma-based.
• Scent: Its antennae give a dromite the scent ability. A dromite can detect opponents by scent within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at triple normal range. When a dromite detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not re vealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The dromite can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. Whenever the dromite comes within 5 feet of the source, the dromite pinpoints the source’s location.
• Blind-Fight: Its antennae also give a dromite Blind-Fight as a bonus feat.
• Compound Eyes: This feature of its anatomy gives a dromite a +2 racial bonus on Spot checks.
• Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Gnome, Goblin, Terran.
• Favored Class: Wilder.
• Level Adjustment: +1.
JIHUN-NISH: i definitely like the idea of a sort of a hidden bastion of halfling nature masters who have thrived in a far-off place and retained most of the knowledge of the ancients...or an area where their life-shapes have run rampant. i was thinking of placing something like that at the south pole in regions D11, E11, and F11. there was more water and more landmass to play around with.
i like the reef idea a lot though, and may have to incorporate it into the region you specified (i wasn't planning on doing a map of that region, focusing instead on the major landmasses/bodies of water). great stuff!
Thanks for the nice comments.
I was indeed referring to a self-evolve life-shape creatures like the now called Athasian Sesheyens who originally was a flying guardian in Rhulisti communities.
I think the Sesheyen has an enough alien look and abilities (with minor tweaks) that could well be from life-shape origins.
About the reef idea, I imagine a region in what was once a part of an ocean, is now self- sustainable environment where water has now evolved into thick mix of humidity/air/unknown gas and where creatures which use to swim has evolved into flyers or crawlers to survive as a species. Let me explain: The air is so thick with humidity that a non water breather would still drown, but it would take double the amount of time then if it was just water. The creatures that use to swim ages ago have evolved/mutated into flying or crawlers for they can no longer swim. (There is just not enough buoyancy. Flying creatures such as bird/fishes from various species still fly in shoal, for better protection. The coral as also evolved/mutated in various shapes/size/function creating a maze of many dangers but also of wonders.
The flying race mentioned in my previous post (those with talons instead of feet) live above the ‘’gas’’ level. Where true air meets the ‘’gas’’ a strange chemical (none lethal) reaction as formed into a whiter gas blocking the view.
The fact that it is in the center of the strangest mountain formation found anywhere on Athas (see my first post) made the place a secret to the rest of the world even to this day… or has it!!
Eelz are ‘’gas’’ breather thus they live in the maze-like coral reef.
Flying humanoid with elven/Halfling features with talons replacing there foot are ‘’surface breather but they have learned to hold their breath extensively. (Some even more then others) There is also the air clerics (more druidic oriented) who as learned to harness elemental magic. All their weapons and tools are from a strange creature resembling a snail where a portion of its inner shell is composed of some sort of organic fluid which in its natural state is some sort of thick solution. If left to its natural state (even in open air) it will be malleable for quite some time.But when forged with intense heat (part of it or as a whole), it can become weapons and tools of all sorts and fonction. It is even said that strange properties can be forged from the organic substance depending on the age of the snail when it was killed. This race has become masters of the art. Those who eventually develop a wild talent sees it as a sign for evolution and unlike their Rhul-thaun cousins, they do anything in their power to extend it.
The Athasian Sesheyens are able to breath in both environments but are more often encountered on the ‘’surface’’. Although a lot of them can be seen in the Coral Maze for they have taken upon themselves to find and guard anything they can discover about the Rhulisti history/artefact. And they do it with a well known obsession.
edit:What's in red is actually part of the U'nack's way of life: a race I created which lives somewhere in the Koshack mountains.
Weren't Sesheyens an alien PC race in the Alternity game?
Yes indeed but although the Alternaty setting is a futuristic setting, the Sesheyens are primitive compared to the ather races found in the setting.
There was also an article in a Dragon mag. where the sesheyens were introduced for any setting. (must find whitch one though)
Oh and Rhul-Thaun Sage!!! I know... :P
JIHUN-NISH: i definitely like the idea of a sort of a hidden bastion of halfling nature masters who have thrived in a far-off place and retained most of the knowledge of the ancients...or an area where their life-shapes have run rampant.
I don't. Well, I don't have a problem with the degenerate children of the life-shaped creatures, that's fine.
However, I think that the Rhul-thaun should be the closest thing left to the Rhulisti on Athas .... The Rhulisti once had the run of the entire planet, and a conclave of knowledgeable rhulisti has never been heard of after the Rebirth? I don't buy it.
the rhul-thaun are beliveable. And, in their way, uniquely athasian. Degenerate, all that once great knowelge reduced to rote rituals. I personally feel that that's all that should be left of the Blue Age. Anything else just doesn't fit the tone of the setting.
For that matter, I also tend to feel that the Tablelands should be a high point of (humanoid) civilization. Not that there shouldn't be anything anywhere else, just that the tablelands are one of the nicest places left.
I don't. Well, I don't have a problem with the degenerate children of the life-shaped creatures, that's fine.
However, I think that the Rhul-thaun should be the closest thing left to the Rhulisti on Athas .... The Rhulisti once had the run of the entire planet, and a conclave of knowledgeable rhulisti has never been heard of after the Rebirth? I don't buy it.
the rhul-thaun are beliveable. And, in their way, uniquely athasian. Degenerate, all that once great knowelge reduced to rote rituals. I personally feel that that's all that should be left of the Blue Age. Anything else just doesn't fit the tone of the setting.
For that matter, I also tend to feel that the Tablelands should be a high point of (humanoid) civilization. Not that there shouldn't be anything anywhere else, just that the tablelands are one of the nicest places left.
Agreed. Leave that for the three rhulisti aboard the Messenger.
in the end i still dig a remote and isolated culture of rhul-thuan that have retained MORE knowledge than their Tyr region counterparts. i'm not saying that there'd be an entire continent ruled by throwbacks from the Blue Age, but having a location where the knowledge and understanding is deeper wouldn't be a bad thing. how did Rajaat figure out that the halflings were the original masters of the planet in the first place? ancient texts? sure. the halflings of the Jagged Cliffs? definitely. but what if there was another place, not even on the continent, that was a gold-mine of halfling cultural/historical information? perhaps over time they've managed to rebuild a little of what fractured information their Rhulisti predacessors left behind?
i don't want to discount anything just yet. Athas is a big place (even though it is still smaller than earth) and that leaves a lot of space to work with as well as a lot of areas that, due to their isolation, could have thrived and grown over the millenia that have passed after the Cleansing Wars. not only that but the vast expanse of silt makes travel between the remote regions incredibly difficult and that alone leaves a lot of leeway for areas to develop completely on their own without the influence of the sorcerer kings...
there are rhulisti aboard the Messanger? as in the star in the night sky that appears every so often? someone fill me in on this tidbit of information please.
I think that this tidbit of information came out of the Wander's book in the revised box set or maybe from the Windrider's of the Jagged Cliffs.
there are rhulisti aboard the Messanger? as in the star in the night sky that appears every so often? someone fill me in on this tidbit of information please.
DS2 notes that the messenger missed it's appearence on Free Year 7.
Years later, Lynn Abbey drops the bomb: it was a future plotline that the messenger lands on Athas. Turns out it was a cryoship containing three halflings from the blue age. Nature Benders, I belive, but my recall isn't perfect at the moment. TSR folded Dark Sun before anything was actually written on this plotline; it was just a plan.
...
For the rest of it, well ... call me a traditionalist, but I rather like the idea that the rest of the planet is in even worse shape than the tablelands ... Athas is a world on it's deathbead. It just doesn't fit the tone for me, if we find that there's a place just over on the other side of the silt where things are just ducky.
Scry isn't exactly a high level ability; it's nothing for the SKs to check out the rest of the world. If things are nicer somewhere else, wouldn't it make sense that they'd try and establish a presence there?
Years later, Lynn Abbey drops the bomb: it was a future plotline that the messenger lands on Athas. Turns out it was a cryoship containing three halflings from the blue age. Nature Benders, I belive, but my recall isn't perfect at the moment.
I seem to recall that two were Nature Masters and one was a Bender... (which, to my innocent English ears, just sounds so wrong...)
For the rest of it, well ... call me a traditionalist, but I rather like the idea that the rest of the planet is in even worse shape than the tablelands ... Athas is a world on it's deathbead. It just doesn't fit the tone for me, if we find that there's a place just over on the other side of the silt where things are just ducky.
Scry isn't exactly a high level ability; it's nothing for the SKs to check out the rest of the world. If things are nicer somewhere else, wouldn't it make sense that they'd try and establish a presence there?
Gotta agree with this take on things. I love these maps (awesome work, Brian), but I am also in the "everything bleaker than everything else" camp.
For the rest of it, well ... call me a traditionalist, but I rather like the idea that the rest of the planet is in even worse shape than the tablelands ... Athas is a world on it's deathbead. It just doesn't fit the tone for me, if we find that there's a place just over on the other side of the silt where things are just ducky.
Scry isn't exactly a high level ability; it's nothing for the SKs to check out the rest of the world. If things are nicer somewhere else, wouldn't it make sense that they'd try and establish a presence there?
Me personally, here's how I view the rest of Athas (not that I've given it termendious thought). The rest of the planet is at least marginably habitable, perhaps with even a few oasises out there. However, its by far much more savage. The SKs impose a sort of order on the Tablelands. Absent of them, lands not under their control have slid into pure anarchy. Roving gangs are commonplace. And quite possibly, the SKs do have outposts out in the hinterlands, for the purposes of gathering slaves and possibly other resources. These would be pretty remote places, but places with at least some order in the untamed lands. There might even be cities, but none as grand as the SK's home cities.
But that's just me ;)
in no way am i saying that the rest of the world is a paradise...on a grander scale i envision it a lot like the deserts of the tablelands, vast stretches of harsh and barren terrain dotted by small oasis and the occassional verdant belt, forest or other respite. just because it is an oasis, verdent belt, or forest by no means makes it a paradise. all sorts of nasty beasties huddle near these areas, as well as bandits and other such undesirables. that's how i see Athas as a whole, and it is what i will keep in mind as i flesh out areas beyond the Sea of Silt. that being said, just because there are rhulisti decendants in a remote region of the globe by no means makes it a happy-fun-time place to visit. they could be xenophobic to the extreme, killing any non-halfling on site to protect their small sanctuary. or maybe the soft porous stone the original rhulisti life-shapers used is gone, and they've adapted by using organic life-forms as a base, boiling down a living being into a thick proto-plasmic soup through some horrific means only to reshape it to their own ends. again, this reinforces the fact that there is no true paradise on Athas, that even the most beautiful thing can and usually does hold a deadly secret, that what appears to be an oasis may just be a mirage...or worse. Saragar and the Lost Sea are examples of this mechanic. a seemingly utopian society but at what personal cost? therein lies the fundamental themes of this campaign setting i think. it's not just about the dying world, its about survival, adaptation, hope and the raw elements of existence...nature, life, death, and rebirth. if Athas is truely a doomed world on the brink of extinction, then where does the ideals of heroism fit in to its cosmology? i just don't see it as that much of a nihilistic setting overall. i see it more of a play between the different themes and elements listed above. that's just my own take on it however, and i'm not going to say that one way is the right way...like i've said before it ultimately ends up in the hands of the individual DM; but that's how i run it and it's led to some great role-playing experiences.
overall i think everyone's input is fantastic, and what i find most enjoyable is seeing where everyone has taken the setting individually since it went out of print, as well as how the community has shaped the "official" material since then. all of which is compiled in my brain and used to flesh out my own campaign, fill in holes, create book-ends and new beginnings. it's all really great, and thanks to everyone for their compliments and ideas! i'll be putting up more maps soon. until then, rock on kids!
was just messin' about in photoshop with my wacom tablet and did a quick lil digi-paint of the Wailing Towers in area E4 - Northern Anattan Wastes.
How wrong I was.... this is excellent work guys!!! It's great to see somebody develop one small region by itself, but even better when somebody comes along and pieces everything together, topped off with high-quality maps that look so much like the original DS maps!
I'm very interested in seeing how the rest of the planet is developed!!
the region north of the Drake's Tail Peninsula is known as the Brown Lands, an area fleshed out by METHVEZEM. this is the northern area of the map he supplied me.
also, an updated world view...
sorry for the lag in updates, work got a bit busy...ne'er you fear i shall be posting more soon! also, i've sort of lost track of which maps i've sent to who and in what form...so if you're missing any or would like some of your own either visit darkhelm.org which has the large, marked maps or let me know of your specific needs. i'm working on posting up .PSDs of each file as well as the other tools and such that i used to create these as soon as i can...until then...game on!
sorry for the lag in updates, work got a bit busy...ne'er you fear i shall be posting more soon! also, i've sort of lost track of which maps i've sent to who and in what form...so if you're missing any or would like some of your own either visit darkhelm.org which has the large, marked maps or let me know of your specific needs. i'm working on posting up .PSDs of each file as well as the other tools and such that i used to create these as soon as i can...until then...game on!
I can potentially host the .PSD's as well as anything else you need. Also, I've forgotten which ones I have, I need to chek my site, see which of the parts I have on it, and I'll send you a listing of which ones are up on darkhelm.org. I'm hoping to son have the time to make an imagemap for the whole thing, so people can use the worldmap image, click on a completed section, and that will open a page which has that region's map in close-up.
I also feel that if there are going to be any races that are ruled by elemental beings that it should be dromites who I imagine to very prominte in non-table lands/non thor-kreen empire regions being that they seem to be the perfect evolutionary mix of animal and insect something so crazy that only a world as harsh as athas would require in order to survive.
speaking of...
people reference information on the dead lands...where can i find this supplemental material? is it canon or is it something the community has sort of sketched out? please fill me in. also, a lot of people have mentioned that the Dead Lands should be a lot smaller than what is represented on the world map and that they are only about 400 miles by 400 miles or so...which is actually only about ONE grid region in size. suggestions and comments are welcome as it'll help me to flesh out those areas much better. those who requested the .PSD files for brushes and such please fire me an [email=brian@blitzds.com]e-mail[/email] directly so that i can respond all at once to all requests. please be sure your mailbox can handle large files AND more importantly, that you're working in PHOTOSHOP CS. the map .PSDs can be as large as 60 to 70MB EACH. so if your inbox is too small you won't be able to receive them. you could wait until i can get them up online and just download them then. in any case please let me know. thanks again everyone!
people reference information on the dead lands...where can i find this supplemental material? is it canon or is it something the community has sort of sketched out? please fill me in. also, a lot of people have mentioned that the Dead Lands should be a lot smaller than what is represented on the world map and that they are only about 400 miles by 400 miles or so...which is actually only about ONE grid region in size. suggestions and comments are welcome as it'll help me to flesh out those areas much better. those who requested the .PSD files for brushes and such please fire me an [email=brian@blitzds.com]e-mail[/email] directly so that i can respond all at once to all requests. please be sure your mailbox can handle large files AND more importantly, that you're working in PHOTOSHOP CS. the map .PSDs can be as large as 60 to 70MB EACH. so if your inbox is too small you won't be able to receive them. you could wait until i can get them up online and just download them then. in any case please let me know. thanks again everyone!
Shadows of the Dead Lands. Not released yet, was one of the two books that TSR had been preparing to release but never did (the other is Dregoth Ascending). Terrors of the Dead Lands, which covers the various creatures from there, is released and available on Athas.org.
I'll get you a list of whihc of your maps I have files for, I will also be wanting the .PSD files to potentially have up on my site along with the rest of the things (can make people's life a bit more convenient).
Shadows of the Dead Lands.
That should be Secrets of the Deadlands, though Shadows of the Deadlands would be a nice working title for another adventure besides the Emissary that dealt with the Deadlands.
That should be Secrets of the Deadlands, though Shadows of the Deadlands would be a nice working title for another adventure besides the Emissary that dealt with the Deadlands.
Bah. I always get that name confused for some reason.
I'm not overly thrilled with the idea the all of the massive silt basins that are around Athas being called the "Sea of Silt". Sea implies a certain range of sizes of bodies of water usually, and the massive ocean-like silt basin that is on the maps seems to be a bit larger than anything that would be called a "sea". Can we change the name to something a bit more meaningful, like the "Silt Ocean", or "Ocean of Salt and Silt"? The latter one, because on the global map, it appears to be a more whitish kind of shade compared to the "inland" silt basins -- maybe the oceanic salt that reamined has mixed with the silt -- concievably making the silt a bit easier to cross (more packed in), while combining some of the elements of salt flats with a silt basin.
Just a little thing, really. Kinda nit-picking.
I'm not overly thrilled with the idea the all of the massive silt basins that are around Athas being called the "Sea of Silt". Sea implies a certain range of sizes of bodies of water usually, and the massive ocean-like silt basin that is on the maps seems to be a bit larger than anything that would be called a "sea". Can we change the name to something a bit more meaningful, like the "Silt Ocean", or "Ocean of Salt and Silt"? The latter one, because on the global map, it appears to be a more whitish kind of shade compared to the "inland" silt basins -- maybe the oceanic salt that reamined has mixed with the silt -- concievably making the silt a bit easier to cross (more packed in), while combining some of the elements of salt flats with a silt basin.
i'm down, we could begin by naming the "oceans" of Athas then defining the names of the seas (seas usually being small bodies of inland salt-water or mostly inland, i.e. - the mediterranean sea, the red sea, etc.). so the region of silt near Ur Draxa may bear the official name of "Sea of Silt" because it's between two landmasses, but other areas may bear different and more ancient names like "the Lifemoon Ocean" or whatever. earth has 5 oceans Pacific, Atlantic, Arctic, Indian, and Southern Oceans (the last being named in 2000). we could define similar oceanic names on Athas as well.
i'm down, we could begin by naming the "oceans" of Athas then defining the names of the seas (seas usually being small bodies of inland salt-water or mostly inland, i.e. - the mediterranean sea, the red sea, etc.). so the region of silt near Ur Draxa may bear the official name of "Sea of Silt" because it's between two landmasses, but other areas may bear different and more ancient names like "the Lifemoon Ocean" or whatever. earth has 5 oceans Pacific, Atlantic, Arctic, Indian, and Southern Oceans (the last being named in 2000). we could define similar oceanic names on Athas as well.
I was just thinking that since there is no real global-spanning connections, people just could call the largest basin the "Silt Ocean", while the smaller ones as "Sea of Silt" -- nothing special, just basing off of the size of the silt basin. Mind you, the people in the Tablelands wouldn't really be going far enough away on average to see the difference. Other places might name the silt basins near them differently -- they could even have different names for the Silt Ocean that's near them. It's just a silt basin that apparently is 2/3 (or more) of the surface of the planet shouldn't be called the Sea of Silt.
Oh, and did y'all ever think that possibly the silt is what is left of the Brown Tide? I mean... if the Brown Tide was some sort of algae or whatever that spread across the waters and consumed it all... what if the sea of silt is more or less the dried up remains of that thing? When the Pristine Tower destroyed the Brown Tide and initiated he Rebirth, what if what was left of the Brown Tide was actually along the ocean floor, growing and slowly still consuming the waters (at an albeit much slower rate). Eventually, the water is all dried up, the algae dies for lack of sustenence, and becomes the dust. There would have been plenty of time for it to do that...
here are the oceanic regions i quickly outlined in the planetary composite. i figure that characters and peoples from the tablelands region would definitely have no idea or record of what these once vast bodies of water were called. however, i can imagine in the green age they did indeed have names. the red area is probably the largest ocean and the green and blue areas are probably about the same in size. in my current campaign, the adventurers stumbled upon an ancient map of athas during the green age. so their only point of reference is a map that is thousands of years old with ancient names and ancient sites all in an ancient language...
Only download these if you have Photoshop. And only download them if you plan to use them, as these files are huge. Too many requests for all of them could swiftly eat through even my considerable bandwith. Also, you will need Winzip or similar in order to open the files, as I've compressed them to help reduce size.
Note that I will be putting up smaller, more sanely-sized .jpg versions of the maps very soon for those of you just looking to have copies of Brian's maps for reference (rather than the mutli-layered Photoshop versions that are there right now). These you will be able to packrat download like crazy!
As I receive more maps from Brian, I will be put them up and will be changing the layout and site interactivity as time permits.
If you find any problems with the site or files, let me know and I'll fix it ASAP.
~B-)
Only download these if you have Photoshop.
Or The G.I.M.P. -- same features as Photoshop, but is open source, and free to download & install.
And only download them if you plan to use them, as these files are huge. Too many requests for all of them could swiftly eat through even my considerable bandwith. Also, you will need Winzip or similar in order to open the files, as I've compressed them to help reduce size.
Here's something better than Winzip: 7-Zip. Yet another open source product that handles file compression/decompression, no "annoy-ware" features, and has a better compression format than any others (the .7z format)
Note that I will be putting up smaller, more sanely-sized .jpg versions of the maps very soon for those of you just looking to have copies of Brian's maps for reference (rather than the mutli-layered Photoshop versions that are there right now). These you will be able to packrat download like crazy!
As I receive more maps from Brian, I will be put them up and will be changing the layout and site interactivity as time permits.
If you find any problems with the site or files, let me know and I'll fix it ASAP.
Well, I *thought* that Brian was sending me the maps, but I guess he decided to go with you, Raven :P. I think I'll go through the process of getting the .PSD's eventually here, however.
In your big map its the silt region east of the tablelands, the entire circular body of silt surrounding the Cerulean Storm.
Brian, the only body of water that we know was named (same for body of silt) is the Sunrise Sea, which now a days doubles as the Sea of Silt
There's "legends" of a sea north of the Crimson Savannah (I think that is the right direction, maybe it is west), and I could have sworn that was in print somewhere, like TKoA or Revised Campaign Setting.
yes,indeed! there is a large body of water mentioned in WRotJC. It's on p.73. All that's said however is that it lies on the other side of the thri-kreen empire (which to me means to the west) and that it may be larger than the swamp (Kano?).
Well, to me, I'd say West through North/Northwest. Even from South/Southwest upwards to West is possible with that vague reference.
Of course, I'm still under the firm belief that everything west of the Jagged Cliffs should be totally dominated by the Kreen....
Well, to me, I'd say West through North/Northwest. Even from South/Southwest upwards to West is possible with that vague reference.
Of course, I'm still under the firm belief that everything west of the Jagged Cliffs should be totally dominated by the Kreen....
Agreed. On both accounts.
On a note about the kreen empire, I'd really like to see that area on the world map expanded westwardly. The area given seems a bit small for my tastes. There would be a narrower expanse where the "ocean?" lies, of course, but I think the area around it should go much further westward then what's been shown.
And while I'm talking about tweeking the world view, I'm definately of the mind that the Deadlands region needs to be made smaller.
I have concidered things like I had mentioned earlier in the thread, an area where an army still is fighting the Cleansing Wars (with a possibility of another Champion leading them) -- totally oblivious to what happened in the Tablelands.
I like this. Not so much as another Champion, but maybe some other loyal servant to either Rajaat or one of the other Champions.
...
For the rest of it, well ... call me a traditionalist, but I rather like the idea that the rest of the planet is in even worse shape than the tablelands ... Athas is a world on it's deathbead. It just doesn't fit the tone for me, if we find that there's a place just over on the other side of the silt where things are just ducky.
Scry isn't exactly a high level ability; it's nothing for the SKs to check out the rest of the world. If things are nicer somewhere else, wouldn't it make sense that they'd try and establish a presence there?
Personally i think that the SK's are quite happy where they are. They have cities, they have minions, they have all the power they could want (up till borys died they knew to challenge him would invite destruction - at each others hands if no one elses).
At least in the tablelands any defilers are reliant on the SK's for power, or far too weak to challenge them; the druids are weakened. All the SK's know how powerful a defiler can become when things are green. They became powerful in the Green Age after all!
Having said this i personally think the Kreen empire is the only place that is much better than the tablelands, other places may be better or worse, but only just.
Beware - I believe the papyrus font is copyrighted.
I think xl right, I've seen it a lot in TV pub. So it's probably copyR.
A quick update to the Athasian Cartographer's Guild
Oulala!
The site is a beauty! Eye candy, really. :D
You make your own sites Greyorm?
as for the two versions of the Brown Lands, that was an error. the ACTUAL version is version 2. the first was an unfinished version where i realized my scale was off! :P
i must have grabbed that file accidentally when FTP'ing it! my bad! we can leave it there though if anyone wants to use it or play around with it. it's up to you all, but for future reference VERSION 2 is the correct version based off of Methvezem's original map. this may be the case for some of the other maps as well, so if you run into a different version that you haven't seen before it may just be one that i left unfinished and started over. no worries!
again big thanks to the Rev for hosting all these images and such, he provided me with an FTP that allowed for a quick uploading of images without the hassle of sending 70+MB files through e-mail. the site looks great! i hope that everyone is having fun using what i've put together to flesh out their own campaign worlds and such; and again i only ask that whatever you create to PLEASE post it here and share it with everyone!! feel free to e-mail me if you have any other questions about photoshop or the map making process. thanks again everyone, i'm proud to be a part of this great community of imaginative and creative people!
as for the two versions of the Brown Lands, that was an error. the ACTUAL version is version 2. the first was an unfinished version where i realized my scale was off! :P
hummm about the brown land, did you had a look at the methzerev material?
hummm about the brown land, did you had a look at the methzerev material?
methvezem sent me his original map of the brown lands to incorporate into the overall world view. the area that his map covers is areas B6-C6 and B7-B8 on the world map. so the overall area of the Brown Lands is split between maps "Brown Lands areas B6-C6" AND the "Drake's Tail Peninsula areas B7-B8" respectively. these areas fall within the boundaries of several of the map grid areas so i ended up making them outside the bounds of a standard grid space to remove the need to make 4 maps for two areas (most of which would be silt if i were to have done it that way). instead i created the northern region and the southern region to keep from breaking up the area. both areas are true to the locations and features on Meth's map. i added a few features like the lake in B7-B8, but i really liked Meth's version and what he had sketched out insofaras its history, culture and such. i did forget to name the area of Silt on the Northern edge of the Drake's Tail Peninsula the Pearly Sea as it was labeled in Meth's map however.
It is my understanding that the Tablelands are the last cradle of civilization on Athas. That is not to say that there aren't other people and cultures out there (like the Kreen Empire in the Crimson Savanna), however, anything else that is out there is basically dying.
I do like the idea of certain forgotten "pockets" of various civilizations (the Elemental battles at the Drake's tale peninsula sound really interesting...), however, I would be careful not to over-do it. Populate an area too much, and it begs the question "why didn't the Dragon collect a levy from this area?" or even "why didn't the sorceror kings set up a City-State here if it is so much more (pick one) lush / full of natural resources / populated?"
That is not to say that there aren't TONS of great things on these maps. I especially liked the sites of mass destruction like the Tari Graveyard, or the dried up river basin. Also, Brian has an incredible talent for naming his locations. The names are simple, yet meaningful and evocative.
I think that I would use Brian's maps, but simply "dry them up" and depopulate them. At the same time, Athas does need some green areas (including water and jungle -gotta produce O2, yeah?), but there needs to be a reason why the Soceror Kings haven't set up shop there. For example, maybe the Northern Jungles are filled with trees that emit some kind of gas that is poisonous to humaniods (perhaps this was the work of a Druid or Rhulthasi life-shaper in order to preserve these areas). The gas wouldn't have to fill the air and poison the planet -maybe it could be dense like fog and be limited to the jungle itself... Perhaps some of the Seas are filled with boiling water due to the intense amount of geological activity. Or maybe some of them are fouled with so much salt that the water is completely unusable.
Overall, I really love the maps, but I think that the vision of Athas needs to be tweaked a little bit.
itf
in the DS material there is mention of a larger body of water (a sea or an ocean) beyond the kreen empire which may explain the Great Northern Sea area (though in the material it's inferred that it is more westward as opposed to North Westward).
i really dig the ideas of acidic or salt jungles that are dangerous, i think this keeps in line with the thematic elements of the DS setting.
IMO, i don't really see Athas as a DEAD world, otherwise there would be no life on it and it wouldn't be able to support civilizations of sentient beings. instead, i see Athas as a DYING world sapped of resources and drained by millenia of destructive magicks. this process is still occurring, the large bodies of water, though big are still dwindling (hence the large mudflats that surround them). bodies close to the equator would have dried up faster because of the heat, whilst the bodies further away would shrink a bit more slowly (hence why most large masses of water on the map are further north or further south). after enough time these large areas of water will eventually become silt as well, but it's a geological process (just as the damage we're doing to earth with pollution and such won't really start messing things up for another century or so at the current rate). i think that there are still means to tip the balance of the world and restore what has been lost, or conversely drain it to uninhabitability; but that's where the players come in and that's what makes the adventures and lends flavor to the setting.
the tablelands is a small part of a greater system, and it seems to be the cradle of civilization. thus the devestation of the cleansing wars and the sorcerer-kings will be more pronounced in these areas. the reason i think the sorcerer-kings stayed in the tablelands region as opposed to moving to other parts of Athas is simple...not only is it the location of the artifact from which they derive their power (the Pristine Tower), but it is also the location of one of their most feared enemies, and a being that would be capable of destroying them if freed from his prison (Rajaat). the SK's need to be in close proximity to these two things or they risk losing all their power and thus they have chosen not to venture further from this location. not only that, but again, there aren't oceans anymore, just small pockets of salt water dotting an endless expanse of choking loam. travel between continents is no longer really possible even with psionically driven silt craft (the psi-tech from the Green Age is nearly lost, and items fashioned in the age of the SK's lack the power of their Green Age predecessor's).
a trip across the silt ocean to another continent would take months, and to prepare for a journey of such magnitude is just too costly (water, food for the trip as well as enough psions to power the engine for such a long period of time without being able to stop and rest). not only that, why even take the journey in the first place? i'm sure the SK's have traveled the rest of Athas through their draconic magic just to check it out and see what's going on elsewhere, if it was something amazing (which would have to be something REALLY incredible to catch the attention of a SK who's lived thousands of years) then maybe they'd consider, but i figured they already have and their final decision was to just keep what they have and not bother.
to all intents and purposes there's not much left on Athas anyway. thus the SK's sit pretty in their power and their kingdoms with no need to really go anywhere else.
I don't know if it is the right time or just a slightly unwanted question at these hard times, but just a question no pressure....is there any chance that you could make the pictures as good as they are at Dark Sun rising? Because they're awesome and to have these pics you made in the same quality as they are there?
What do you mean the as good as DS rising? I personally think these are much better than the DS rising maps!
Hey Brian- when do you think you may be able to grace us with some more of your skilz bro? I am jonesing to put all of these together an post them on my wall- my wife may not be pleases but what the heck, she can only kill me once right :D
i'm workin' on it, works been pretty hectic as of late so the work on my spare time has been a bit slow going. thankfully with the holly-daze approaching i'll have some good time to bust out more stuff for everyone. primarily i'm focusing on finishing up that epic-spell image first! ;)
overall, i chose to keep the maps i create more like the original box set material, thus the stylistic difference between mine and Dave at Dark Sun Rising's maps. it was Dave's material that inspired me in the first place and i only hope that i can continue with mapping out the surface and details of Athas in his honor and memory.
i also hope that everyone takes the tools and files that the Reverend and i have put up on The Athasian Cartographer's Guild site to create maps of their own and flesh out the world!
anyway, i'm looking forward to lots of projects, but it's all good fun so everyone stay tuned!
i'm workin' on it, works been pretty hectic as of late so the work on my spare time has been a bit slow going. thankfully with the holly-daze approaching i'll have some good time to bust out more stuff for everyone. primarily i'm focusing on finishing up that epic-spell image first! ;)
overall, i chose to keep the maps i create more like the original box set material, thus the stylistic difference between mine and Dave at Dark Sun Rising's maps. it was Dave's material that inspired me in the first place and i only hope that i can continue with mapping out the surface and details of Athas in his honor and memory.
i also hope that everyone takes the tools and files that the Reverend and i have put up on The Athasian Cartographer's Guild site to create maps of their own and flesh out the world!
anyway, i'm looking forward to lots of projects, but it's all good fun so everyone stay tuned!
Sweet- I am totally psyched to see the finished pic of the spellform- I guess I will also have to get off my arse and finish the spell too them
As for Master Ivan's comment- I have to back my man Brian here and support his efforts in doing what he has- no disrespect to Dave at DS Rising, bu I do like B's style and how they have the 'flavor' of the originial- I just wish he would also do a rendition of the Revised box set maps so I will not have this wierd looking gap on my wall :D [using mental powers to reach acrossed the vast miles and bend Brian's will to my own]
...:D [using mental powers to reach acrossed the vast miles and bend Brian's will to my own]
did you check with the DM to see if he made his will save?
anyway. The last sea (named Marnita, remember?) used to be part of a larger ocean. It mentions this somewhere in mind lords of the last sea, in connection with the dolphins. saying how the dolphins were stuck in marnita and cut off from their brethren in the larger oceans. so as part of operation keep the outside world out, the mind lords must have altered the geography to cut off their little section of the Marnita ocean (or sea, whatever). Just a thought.
Also, the dead lands are supposed to be just over 200 miles across.
Also, the dead lands are supposed to be just over 200 miles across.
I don't have my Wanderer's Journal handy, but the timeline has
161st King's Age (-2,233)
-Ral's Fury
Infuriated at her lack of progress, Rajaat turns research of the Inner Planes over to Qwith's subordinates. Shortly after an accident of unknown origins opens a gate to the Inner Planes, and obsidian flows across the land for hundreds of miles in each direction until the gate is closed by the Seventh Tree.
that could be a natural part of things... in addition, the tectonic plate movements... remove the cooling aspect and the pressurizing aspect of the water, couldn't that affect those areas? further increased lava flow and earthquake activity?? The surface of athas is really like a bleeding sore... tortured and twisted by improper care... a true dying planet..did you check with the DM to see if he made his will save?
I am the DM and yes he failed his save:D
Section One: About Me
I'm currently in the process of a major move across the country. In prep, I'm scouring my inventory deciding what to own/sell. Last week, I came across my Dark Sun stuff that I've never sold and read through them yet again. I haven't gamed in a few years, but I kept everything. Dark Sun 1st and 2nd Edition Sets, Monster Compendiums 1 & 2, Dragon Kings, and the Will and the Way. I also kept my Shattered Lands PC game. Needless to say, I'm never selling this stuff and love reading through it.
So it got me thinking, what happened to Dark Sun? I was well aware of the fall of P&P RPGs in the 1990's due to the popularity of CCGs, but when 3rd edition came out, did Dark Sun come back too? Sadly I've learned that it has not. However, I did find a rather large community online, leading to Athas.org, the fansites, and to the message board here on WOTC.
I must say that of all the new things I've read about the current state of Dark Sun, this thread is easily the most exciting. Ever since I first read through the expanded maps and overland descriptions in Dark Sun 2nd Edition, I've always wondered what the rest of Athas looked like and what other landscapes exist. This project is amazing and has sparked my imagination yet again. I've sent an e-mail to one of my friends who also loves Dark Sun and after checking out the links, he called me with great interest about the maps.
This project is great and I hope all the work goes well. I eagerly await the new maps and ideas for the existing landscapes.
I have to say that without doubt, the handdrawn World Map of Athas from that fansite is everything I could have hoped for Athas. The continent just screams out to the viewer "blasted and shattered". The entire world looks fractured and craggy, a beautifully barren wasteland of heat, sand, and few remaining green lands. Immediately, the mind asks where the water is on this world and what happened to cause such a harsh realm. That's exactly the reaction you want when creating the world of Athas. This global map is a solid conceptual foundation upon which to build. It also places the known lands from the official boxed sets in the heart of the world, just as was described in the 2nd Edition set history.
Next, I have to say that the enormous expanse of the Deadlands is sheer brilliance, regardless of the way in which they would be shaped by the unpublished official releases. During my campaign time as both player and DM in 1st Edition, my friends and I always included a vast extension of Athas called the "dead zone" on the global map. This "dead zone" had nothing to do with undead nor a landscpae of obsidian broken lands. Rather, the idea was a significant portion of the continent's crust was torn asunder, releasing lava in huge amounts that cooled after the magic cataclysm had passed. This left a vast portion of Athas as a near lifeless land of black rock, volcanic mountains, and black sand deserts (I had travelled to Hawaii years earlier and never forgot the sight of black sand beaches). When 2nd Edition was released and a black landscape called the Deadlands appeared, my friends and I thought TSR read our minds! My friends and I always felt that while heroes and their new civilizations may eventually restore much of the world, there would always be a portion of Athas that was unrecoverable, like some giant scar on the surface of the planet that would never truly..."heal". Seeing this massive expanse of dead-land right in the middle of Athas is something I've always envisioned and I applaud the use of this concept.
Finally, I must praise the inclusion of ice on Athas and some areas of water/vegetation. Simply to be more believable, Athas is a world that needs some manner of water and vegetation to maintain a renewing atmosphere and support life. Even the great Herbert had to carefully construct his Arrakis to be plausible using massive polar caps, deep ground water, and ecologically linked sandworms to support a pretense of habitable human conditions. Athas does receive rain and humidity as stated in the boxed sets, which would be carried in the atmosphere from more humid lands across the globe. This makes sense and helps suspension of disbelief.
So far a lot of great ideas have made it into these maps. I hope these ideas stay.
Well, what would the internet be without the complaints of fans?
So, here is my criticism and suggestions.I have to say, the world of Athas is feeling a little too populated. Now, I am keeping in mind the importance of the Tyr region over the history of Athas. I am also well aware the Wanderer himself states that while conditions on Athas are harsh, life has shown remarkable resilience and adaptability, thriving in spite of the bleak conditions. And yes, I know this is a game for adventure and encounter, not anthropology aficionados.
HOWEVER, the number of suggestions for races and empires attached to these new maps is quickly making Athas feel like just another fantasy gameworld using a different colored map. Even the Kreen "empires" described in 2nd Edition are little more than loosely joined cities that outclass the city states in some respects, yet are still within the same size and scope of those comparable Tableland empires.
Athas has a seriously depleted population due to genocide and cataclysms. Athas is supposed to be a mere shadow of the world of plenty it once was, meaning "plentiful" is not a term that should describe the world as a whole unless it's sand or heat. Athas is a world of vast empty zones and desolation, a feature critical to its uniqueness among fantasy game worlds. The cities, races, and monsters are spread thin even in the more "populated" areas like the Tablelands.
If I had to make some suggestions for the new areas of Athas, I'd suggest LESS IS MORE. Not every new map should have cities, races, and empires. There should be some areas of Athas that simply aren't populated, besides the vast Silt Seas obviously. Not every map should include "way stations" of conveniently situated oasis'/water/vegetation/cities. There should be areas of Athas where conventional travel is simply not possible because there isn't enough civilization/water/vegetation to support overland travel. The farther one gets away from the Tablelands, the less civilization should exist, with exceptions to keep things interesting of course.
Some of the maps could use these principles to mix it up. Perhaps some of the maps devoid of races/monsters/cities would be great for ruins, like a land of nothing but ruins making the rare encounter in this empty territory all the more significant. Perhaps an ordinarily empty realm of Athas is recovering into a green and life-filled land again, a land that only becomes noticed once adventurers reach it, creating good and bad consequences. Perhaps a very desolate land is filled with Crimson Monoliths or Rune-covered stone arches. Only those that can unlock how to use the psionic/magical gates can hope to gate through them and avoid the vast empty lands inbetween. Perhaps some areas of the primary Athasian continent are actually physically cut off, by lava as far as the eye can see or mountains so high they cannot be climbed or flown over. On the other side could be civilization, but you'd never know it.
Another thing I'd like to see is some non-standard terrain. One of the things I've always liked about Athas was the possibility of bizzare, surreal, almost magical landscapes. The planet itself has been twisted and defiled by magic, so lets make it look so. The Silt Sea, Deadlands, and Cerulean Storm were all great concepts, but I want to see more. I want to see deserts of jet black and crimson red sand or plains of ash. I want to see a domain of a hundred, rocky plateaus made of purple shale. I want to see zones of hideous brown vegetation that poison monsters/animals and evaporate water, spreading like a plague. I want to see a vast flat region of white sand pierced by a single, lonely mountain of blood-red obsidian so tall and narrow, its like Athas itself was pierced by an enormous dagger, wounding the very land. I want to see a land of white upon the horizon, only to discover to one’s horror hills and valleys of bleached white bones and skulls as far as the eye can see. I want to see a sparse forest of leafless, black trees as tall as the highest Sorcerer-King's tower withering in a land of strange, gray pebbles and dust. I want to see a range of ignited natural gas geysers that have been aflame for thousands of years, since the sun was turned crimson. I want to see an abandoned bridge so vast, it takes weeks to cross the vast chasm which it spans. I want to see...something that's never been seen before.
So, there are my first few posts. I hope what I’ve written is useful.
i love it, great...really great imagery, and i couldn't agree more! i'll see what i can do. i also agree that there should be areas so blasted by time that nothing but crumbled ruins stand in silent testimony to ancient and long forgotten ages and kingdoms. many also have postulated that the Kreen have expanded into the larger western region of the continent, but i like the idea that they too are also isolated by impassable geographic features much like those in the tablelands and beyond. inspiring...i'm going to get to work now...
Another thing I'd like to see is some non-standard terrain. One of the things I've always liked about Athas was the possibility of bizzare, surreal, almost magical landscapes. The planet itself has been twisted and defiled by magic, so lets make it look so. The Silt Sea, Deadlands, and Cerulean Storm were all great concepts, but I want to see more. I want to see deserts of jet black and crimson red sand or plains of ash. I want to see a domain of a hundred, rocky plateaus made of purple shale....
Like yourself, I'm new to these boards (wrote a short intro on another thread). I have to say I TOTALLY agree with your ideas, and love the imagery you've created here. I'll certainly use some of them in the campaign I'm starting up (although I will mostly focus on the Tyr region at first, naturally...low-level PCs don't have any business travelling too far away from home imo
). Good going!Another thing I'd like to see is some non-standard terrain. One of the things I've always liked about Athas was the possibility of bizzare, surreal, almost magical landscapes. The planet itself has been twisted and defiled by magic, so lets make it look so. The Silt Sea, Deadlands, and Cerulean Storm were all great concepts, but I want to see more. I want to see deserts of jet black and crimson red sand or plains of ash. I want to see a domain of a hundred, rocky plateaus made of purple shale. I want to see zones of hideous brown vegetation that poison monsters/animals and evaporate water, spreading like a plague. I want to see a vast flat region of white sand pierced by a single, lonely mountain of blood-red obsidian so tall and narrow, its like Athas itself was pierced by an enormous dagger, wounding the very land. I want to see a land of white upon the horizon, only to discover to one’s horror hills and valleys of bleached white bones and skulls as far as the eye can see. I want to see a sparse forest of leafless, black trees as tall as the highest Sorcerer-King's tower withering in a land of strange, gray pebbles and dust. I want to see a range of ignited natural gas geysers that have been aflame for thousands of years, since the sun was turned crimson. I want to see an abandoned bridge so vast, it takes weeks to cross the vast chasm which it spans. I want to see...something that's never been seen before.
:OMG!
Nice.
Another thing I'd like to see is some non-standard terrain. One of the things I've always liked about Athas was the possibility of bizzare, surreal, almost magical landscapes. The planet itself has been twisted and defiled by magic, so lets make it look so. The Silt Sea, Deadlands, and Cerulean Storm were all great concepts, but I want to see more. I want to see deserts of jet black and crimson red sand or plains of ash. I want to see a domain of a hundred, rocky plateaus made of purple shale. I want to see zones of hideous brown vegetation that poison monsters/animals and evaporate water, spreading like a plague. I want to see a vast flat region of white sand pierced by a single, lonely mountain of blood-red obsidian so tall and narrow, its like Athas itself was pierced by an enormous dagger, wounding the very land. I want to see a land of white upon the horizon, only to discover to one’s horror hills and valleys of bleached white bones and skulls as far as the eye can see. I want to see a sparse forest of leafless, black trees as tall as the highest Sorcerer-King's tower withering in a land of strange, gray pebbles and dust. I want to see a range of ignited natural gas geysers that have been aflame for thousands of years, since the sun was turned crimson. I want to see an abandoned bridge so vast, it takes weeks to cross the vast chasm which it spans. I want to see...something that's never been seen before.
Amen brother, amen.
I already have vast plains of ash in the making, I'll add the other places to the mix.
I must say I'm surprised my concepts are so popular. I'm extremely happy Brian and several of the Athas.org staff are interested and enthusiastic to put the ideas to work. I'm glad I could contribute!
Whoa!
I must say I'm surprised my concepts are so popular. I'm extremely happy Brian and several of the Athas.org staff are interested and enthusiastic to put the ideas to work. I'm glad I could contribute!
What's to be surprised about, these are some damn good ideas. :P
What's to be surprised about, these are some damn good ideas. :P
Couldn't have asked for a better welcome
Many here have "fleshed out" areas of Athas in a way that feels a little to populous and a little too prosperous compared to the tablelands.
This doesn't have to be a problem, however. All we have to do is destroy these wonderful regions that others have created.
Take Dunswich. What a beautiful verdant landscape. Full of precipitation and prosperity, and, according to Brian, hope. But maybe this is just the back story for the region. Perhaps hope and prosperity existed in the region until Borys unleashed the most foul of defiling magics into there, killing every single animal in the area. That's right, EVERYTHING. No bugs, no worms, and certainly no intelligent life of any sort. The magic made it impossible for any species to repopulate the area. The plant life survived, however, and of course, all of the villiages, towns, and cities were left untouched. The entire area, although vibrant and green has the eerie pall of death that hangs over it. Characters who wander into the area immediately begin feeling the effects of Borys' defilement. Any small animals with the PC's (such as hurrums) die almost immediately. Pack animals weaken and fall. The area is completely silent. No chirping insects, no birds, only the wind, lush vegetation, and completely empty cities with no trace of what happened. Perhaps the PC's will have to travel to a remote region in the interior in order to find a cure for the malaise they contract upon entering "The Silent Forest."
The next utopia on our list is "Greenhaven Isle." Perhaps our brave adventurers would be attracted to such a place because of the stories they hear about the last pristine refuge left on the planet. And perhaps "Greenhaven" really is paradise -however, you don't need an outside threat for everything to go really really wrong. Perhaps the descendents of the catacylsm at the Cauldron were hypervigilant towards whatever it was that brought down destruction upon them (IMO, it was another Cleansing Wars catastrophe). Maybe they mined iron, and stockpiled weapons to battle against the next big external threat only to implode. So when the PC's find paradise, they find it overgrown and completely unpopulated. The inhabitants of Greenhaven destroyed each other until no survived. All that remains is the ruins of their civilization, an abandoned iron mine, and the lush green forests surrounding an empty lake.
Keeping with the theme of self-destruction, let's head down to the Drake's Tail Peninsula. We have a group of cities ruled by elemental clerics who worship various drakes. Naturally all of the different elemental factions are at war with each other. However, "Cities" sounds like too much civilization for the area. Perhaps small groups of Cleansing War survivors managed to band together and scrape together enough bits of their previous cultures in order to recreate a crude fascimile of civilization in this remote and forgotten region. Despite the "progress," the people of the Drake's Tail Peninsula are headed along the same tragectory as the residents of Greenhaven. Religious fanaticism provided the glue to bind society together, but it has also resulted in centuries of open warfare. Given a little bit more time, yet another dim light of Athasian civilization will be extinguished.
As far as other sites are concerned, I want a great and vast deep-water Elven port. A center of commerce and civiliazation -utterly wrecked. The city has been reduced to rubble and ruins, and all that is left of the greatest port that existed on Athas is a graveyard of ships buried in the silt. I envision vast, broken docks, the ocassional prow or mast protruding from the silt, with the tattered remanents of a sail billowing in the wind.
Another idea I had was "The Pike Forest." Even though Rajaat's Armies devastated their enemies, I am sure that they didn't win every battle. In a moment of desparation, a group of perservers unleashed a horrific defiling spell on one of Rajaat's massive armies. The entire army -tens of thousands of soldiers were all killed instantly. Their corpses slumped to the ground, while their pikes remained upright in the earth, creating a literal "forest of pikes." The preservers were consumed by their magic as well, and today the entire area is untouched due to the curse upon it.
I have some other ideas, but I'd like to hear everyone's input before I write any more.
itf
question though... who knows how much the Dragon's Levy was... wasn't that "yearly"?? if so, that's a lot of baby's to handle future levy's.. is that really "sparsly populated"?? life can thrive in cities.. its just you're likely to get your but whooped by a weed out in the wastes... if the sun doesn't get ya ;)
As far as my opinion on the state of Athas and its civilizations, I prefer to stay close to the dying world side. Like Mr. March, I love the idea of vast, seemingly empty spaces where the focus is more on the environment than the people in it. I too love the idea of bizarre landscapes on Athas. I tend to see the Tablelands as the cradle and the remnants of civilization. Which is not to say there aren't pockets of civilization elsewhere, but they are seperated by huge tracks of lethal emptiness and what distant civilizations do exist are just as precarious and dangerous as any of the sorcerer kings' city-states.
On the conversation about the cosmopolitan state of the Tyr Region, I tend to see the city-states as a place where races of people (and by races, I am mostly referring to different nations/tribes of humanity) were brought by the sorcerer-kings from all over the globe of Athas. Much like Alexander the Great populated Asia with pockets of Greeks and Macedonians when he built his multiple Alexandrias from Egypt to modern-day Pakistan. Whoever the original people of the Tyr Region were, they've been replaced or diluted into the mixing of Athasians from all over the place. Though it is possible that beyond the Tyr Region, some of these original civilizations remain in some remnant form.
But I can't say enough about how great these maps are. I'm working on a project myself to put some real depth to the city-states in their original forms (as they appeared in the original boxed set, before the Prism Pentad). It'll be rules-free source material that anyone could use with whatever rules they play Dark Sun with. Legends and myths of the world beyond the Tyr Region and Athas in its previous ages will pepper the material, so I love being able to use these maps as potential inspiration.
Anyways, I REALLY like Jay L's ideas that the diversity that can be found in the Tablelands really comes from somewhere else. Perhaps remanents of Gulg's civiliazation can be found in some far off jungle at the edge of the continent (or maybe even on another continent). Maybe Nibeney was part of a larger civilization that died out (but traces can be found in a remote area of the continent...)
Lyric, I am not sure about how a forest without worms or bees would work, but nature always finds a way. Maybe the trees developed a method of dispensing pollen / seeds without the use of animals. Maybe plants have taken on the earthworms duties of areating the soil. I am not sure, but the idea of a landscape full of plants but completely devoid of animals is intriguing to me...
Mr. March, where are you at? In regards to your idea about a flat plane dominated by a blood red spire of rock, there are actually formations like this in existence.
The formation is called a "Lava Plug," and it occurs when molten rock inside of a volcano completely cools and the rest of the non-volcanic material that got pushed up with it washes away. Since the volcanic material is much more resilient than the other stuff, you are left with a huge spire of rock. Devil's Tower (from Close Encounters fame) is a lava plug as well. The big island of Hawaii is actually much taller than Everest (measuring from the seafloor up). If we could imagine geological activity pushing that seafloor above the surface of the water, we could end up with an inconceivably huge spike of rock dominating a flat plane of earth. Sometimes reality is just as interesting as fantasy...
Other ideas about landscapes just require imagination. What would a massive waterfall (picture Victoria Falls or Nigara Falls) look like completely devoid of water and vegetation?
What an empty and barren Amazon (both the river and jungle)??? What would that area look like after all the water dried up and everything died?
I also saw pictures of a field filled with boulders all of the same size and shape, spaced equidistance apart. It was breath-taking.
Don't forget "booming" or "singing" sand dunes (which either resonate with the wind or crash like thunder when a vast expanse of sand slides down.)
Perhaps we could combine the thought of fantastic landscape with magic. Maybe Athas itself came to the defense of certain races, or the some of the races learned how to manipulate the landscape itself through epic level magic. (I imagine this would make something like Mr. March's unbelievably long bridge possible). We could have impossibly high cliff faces twisting into a maze, keeping the civilization inside safe from the Champions (at least they thought they would be safe...)
We have various "volcanic wounds" in the planet, but how about some biological ones? I am imagining a pit of foul, rotting vegetation full of spoiled undrinkable water. Or maybe a forest where everything is covered with bleeding, oozing sores (from the trees to the animals).
Also don't forget: Inbreeding. I always thought that the Lizardmen of the Last Sea should be horrifically inbred and deformed. I imagined that they had a terrifically short lifespan and although they weren't extinct yet, it would seem inevitable to anyone who came across them. You could have the same theme play itself out in other distant areas on the continent, where the last pockets of this and that race (or maybe this or that civilization) are slowly slipping into extinction.
Oh yeah, ruins! I always thought that the old Roman aquaducts were amazing. Wouldn't it be bizzare to stumble across some kind of ancient water works in the middle of the desert? Or what about forgotten road signs where there have been no roads for thousands of years? Or ancient roads that appear inexplicably and disappear after heading nowhere (or maybe headed towards the ruins of an old city)? What other ruins could we fill Athas up with?
Okay, those are my thoughts for now. I would really like to hear some feed back.
itf
I have to say I'm overwhelmed by the response to my first posts. I was not expecting my concepts to cause such a stir, merely aid the map creators who may be looking for ideas. Don't misunderstand, I am as enthusiastic about Dark Sun as the next person, but the ideas I posted aren't well researched or deep thoughts. I posted whatever was on my mind.
I've read through the posts of inix, Lyric, and JayL and you all have some good ideas. However, things like insect life and ecosystem impact is going a little deeper than I intended. This is a magical fantasy setting, one that does not require hard science. Yes, the created world must sell believability, enough to pass this fictional setting as plausible as opposed to unlikely. Yet, we are not tied to any specific set of rules and we should be encouraging the unreal, bizzare, and magical. Keep in mind, I'm imagining landscapes in terms of theme and setting. I'm an amateur photographer and writer, so I think in a manner which communicates impression, visualization, and continuity.
There will, and should, be areas of Athas that are simply abandoned or incapable of supporting life. This does not mean forested areas devoid of animals/monsters. This means areas too volatile for MOST living creatures (lava zones, ash lands, etc). Various lands can be dead, in the process of dying, on the edge of devastation, or recovering. The Deadlands is a fine example of an area of Athas that simply will not support life.
Population is another factor. Athas should be a world that has suffered genocide and worldwide ecological destruction. Descriptions in the Dark Sun sets speak of devastation on a planetary scale, with extinction and near extinction of numerous races. The bleak environment and scarce resources of Athas has set back civilization thousands of years, possibly to such a degree as to prevent global expansion ever again. Unless people rise to the challenge and use their skills to save the dying world...people that history may call heroes.
Real life and our own world can be a great source for inspiration. The idea from Inix to utilize "lava plugs" is creative and innovative (personally, I was thinking much narrower and taller for my red obsidian mountain, but that's me). At the same time, don't feel restricted by our world. Athas is meant to be fantasy, with psionics, magic, and numerous forces as much a part of that world as nitrogen and carbon is of our own. Athas does and should feature lands unimagined and impossible on Earth.
I am disappointed that more people aren't posting on this thread. Sorry if my critiques of an overly populated Athas is discouraging people. I am trying to be positive and I am trying to create dialogue, not shoot people down.
Sorry to disappoint you, lord....
This is a facinating discussion and everyone who has posted about it has had great ideas
, until myself.... 
I don't have any ideas, at least not original ones. I think the reason you haven't seen more posts is that many people are intimidated, no fault of your own, by the grandness of the discussion and don't really feel like putting their two cents in when they would end up sounding like a cheerleader or an idiot .Keep up the good work guys :D , other people will join the discussion when they feel they have something meaningful to add.
I've read through the posts of inix, Lyric, and JayL and you all have some good ideas. However, things like insect life and ecosystem impact is going a little deeper than I intended. This is a magical fantasy setting, one that does not require hard science. Yes, the created world must sell believability, enough to pass this fictional setting as plausible as opposed to unlikely. Yet, we are not tied to any specific set of rules and we should be encouraging the unreal, bizzare, and magical. Keep in mind, I'm imagining landscapes in terms of theme and setting. I'm an amateur photographer and writer, so I think in a manner which communicates impression, visualization, and continuity.
At the same time, don't feel restricted by our world. Athas is meant to be fantasy, with psionics, magic, and numerous forces as much a part of that world as nitrogen and carbon is of our own. Athas does and should feature lands unimagined and impossible on Earth.
Although you have some really great ideas, I must say I disagree with the "magical fantasy setting" school of thought, as do a number of people in here I think. For me, although Athas to a large degree has been shaped and influenced by magical processes, underneath it all nature still takes it course...it just adapts. Although I can't find the link for it at the moment (have the pdf on my computer), someone's (Teos Abadia and Gerald Arthur Lewis to be exact) written what I thought was a really great article on the ecology of Athas, explaining how the psionic creatures of Athas uses these abilities in a natural way and how giant monsters fit into such a dreary world. For example, a drake would be a MASSIVE drain on the local ecosystem. Imagine how much water and food such a huge beast requires, and put this monstrosity into the context of a world with minimal resources...
Sure, you can explain this by saying "it's a magical fantasy world, we don't need to care about such details". But for me (and I imagine others as well), logically explaining the presence of drakes and other huge beasts in a world drained of resources is much more interesting. I'm not saying one school of thought is better than the other, but that's what works for me. Even though I don't completely agree with your logic, I'll certainly incorporate some of your ideas into my campaign but with my own twist to it.
My last DM wouldn't have bothered with such details, and I still had tons of fun in his campaign. We're all different, and that's part of what makes roleplaying so interesting to me
The moment a writer creates a fictional world ruled by universalities different than our own, everything changes. All we know of science, cosmology, ecology, geology, etc is built upon laws that govern the way in which our universe is structured. Introduce some factor with far reaching implications and the entire nature of the universe is altered. Forces as powerful as magic and psionics would have far reaching implications indeed, more than most fans have ever bothered to imagine.
If we hold up Athas (or any fictional world created in Science Fiction or Fantasy) to intense scrutiny and high scientific standards, the world fails simply based on concept. The way Denning and Brown created Dark Sun fails numerous scientific standards. The geography of Athas is scientifically false, with mountain ranges and water bodies chosen at random without obeying geologic laws. Given the landscape of Athas, it should by all rights be frozen on the surface, with huge amounts of particulate matter drifting in the atmosphere. The shift in the output of the Athasian sun would create radiation upon the surface making human habitation impossible. Giants and dragons cannot exist because the very design of their bodies is not biologically sound. And on, and on, and on.
The usual retort to my argument is a discussion of degrees. Fans always choose what I like to call “a level of comfort” with science that they have arbitrarily chosen for no apparent reason. They are comfortable with a certain amount of scientific accuracy ruling their fantasy world, but anything less or anything more is unacceptable. Too much scientific accuracy, they say we are over analyzing or holding to impossible standards. Not enough scientific accuracy, they say we are using the supernatural as a crutch.
This then invariably leads to a plethora of internet links and fan discussions of the pseudoscientific. Reasons are invented for these numerous science inaccuracies to be explained away by heretofore unmentioned laws and causalities…many of which are thematically incongruent with the fantasy world itself. Your example of the gianst and drakes is doubtless one such example. This lasts until an impase is discovered and someone ultimately says “So, we just use magic to explain it away then?”
So, here we are right back where we started.
In my experience, I don’t care why something works in a fictional world, only that it does and does so consistently. If object X does Y, then it always does Y. It continues to do Y anywhere and at any time. The moment X does Z, then we have a problem. Like I wrote before, Dark Sun and D&D is not a game for anthroplogy enthusiasts or geology students to examine. If you enjoy Dark Sun because those reasons and the supposed accuracy you think it holds, that's fine, buy I suspect the whole reason most people are here is to play a game and have fun.
If this message board is any indication, perhaps the reason my ideas are so popular and appear so wildly imaginative may be due to a group of people imposing limitations on the ideas of others. "This is doesn’t make sense" or "That can’t be so, and you can’t use the unknown or the supernatural to make it so." Personally, I don’t care why I can’t create a bridge 100 miles long that takes weeks to cross the chasm which it spans using magic to explain it away. It exists because it’s thematically interesting and people want to be excited by something strange, something surreal, something…magical.
That’s what fantasy is all about.
i envisioned Athas as a dying world, scarred and wounded by millenia of abuse. in this way i see that industrialization, pollution and technology are to us on Earth as defiling magic is to Athas. it's just that Athas is further along in its decline (say like Earth in 500-1000 years at its current state of depletion and environmental destruction). in either case, the slow decline of the athasian environment is still much of a geological process that has been hastened by the use of defiling magic; but still continues even as defiling has become limited.
that being said, i figured that defiling magic has had sort of a "green house effect" on the planet as a whole, increasing planetary temperatures drastically especially at the equator. i then set about making maps around this region more arid and devoid of greenery, more sand and scorched badlands. then as i worked towards the polar regions i included a bit more greenery and water. the bodies of water that remain are still shrinking as evidenced by the large mudflats surrounding them. i few centuries from now they'll be nothing but fetid sinks of black sucking ooze, and a thousand years from now, nothing but silt.
overall, it's this sort of feedback that i was looking for. the western peninsula is a desolate and silent region, with a handful of ruins and nothing else but a vaste sea of shifting dunes (the Dreaming Dunes). the Northern Anattan Wastes are like this as well, a few scattered oasis; but otherwise devoid of any large-scale civilizations. the Cthuul jungles in region D2 are an area of dense vegetation that i envisioned as being even more dangerous than arid deserts. a place teeming with poisonous flora and fauna, perhaps with hundreds of variaties of carnivorous plants all of which give off a choking green vapor that makes it difficult to breathe. the water in these areas may be acidic and caustic. there is a lack of large-scale civilizations here as well, just a few villages dot this region. what kind of sentient creatures could thrive in a place such as this? would the athasian traveler really want to know? much in tune with the themes of the setting, just because a place on athas is green and has a lot of water, doesn't make it a happy-trees-fun-fancy place to live; and i've found it amusing that many have assumed that that is the case overall.
the imagery of these locations is what i was hoping to inspire, and Mr. March as well as many others, have done so quite succinctly. i put areas of interest on each map i create, and it is ideas such as these that help to fill out those areas. if everyone begins to use these areas to further their own campaigns and take their players to the far reaches of athas, then it is in line to make them mysterious and fantastic. after all, no one has seen these parts of the world since the close of the Cleansing Wars and thus it lends a great sense of exploration and adventure to the apocolyptic themes of the setting. so keep it coming everyone!!
In my experience, I don’t care why something works in a fictional world, only that it does and does so consistently. If object X does Y, then it always does Y. It continues to do Y anywhere and at any time. The moment X does Z, then we have a problem. Like I wrote before, Dark Sun and D&D is not a game for anthroplogy enthusiasts or geology students to examine. If you enjoy Dark Sun because those reasons and the supposed accuracy you think it holds, that's fine, buy I suspect the whole reason most people are here is to play a game and have fun.
If you never care why something works, sure, that's fine. That's your prerogative. Personally, I've always hated glaringly bad logic in fantasy worlds. Why are there no fields of crops outside the huge city? What do the people eat? What does that monstrously huge drake actually eat to survive (one of the suggestions in the article I talked about, btw, was that drakes and other huge creatures go into hibernation, similar to the Tarasque)? I find there to be a big difference between making the world connect logically and tearing it apart piece by piece, requiring degrees in geology, sociology, zoology and so forth....and I suspect I'm not alone in this. Just because magic and the fantastical is a big part of the world, doesn't mean that you can't have any logic based on earthly standards. That sure makes it easier to cope with and make more consistent, both to the DM and the players.
If this message board is any indication, perhaps the reason my ideas are so popular and appear so wildly imaginative may be due to a group of people imposing limitations on the ideas of others. "This is doesn’t make sense" or "That can’t be so, and you can’t use the unknown or the supernatural to make it so." Personally, I don’t care why I can’t create a bridge 100 miles long that takes weeks to cross the chasm which it spans using magic to explain it away. It exists because it’s thematically interesting and people want to be excited by something strange, something surreal, something…magical.
I think your ideas are popular because they are very colorful and imaginative. However, if much of the world is composed of wildly fantastical places, they quickly become routine. They are fantastical precisely because they contrast with the mundane. Describing the mundane parts of the world makes the world more real to me, and there is certainly no conflict between mundanity/science and fun (for me anyway, and a lot of others). Making the world more logical is part of that fun, a part of immersing yourself in a world that feels like it could possibly be real. Many, many Hollywood movies and TV series wouldn't hold up to scrutiny by experts of the field in question either, but seems logical and consistent to your average person, and that's certainly plenty good enough for me in roleplaying games as well.
That’s what fantasy is all about.
That's what fantasy is about to you. The strange, surreal and magical should certainly be part of any fantasy setting, but a campaign focusing e.g. mostly on war without the "high fantasy" elements can be as fun as anything else, depending on its players. People are different.
If you never care why something works, sure, that's fine. That's your prerogative. Personally, I've always hated glaringly bad logic in fantasy worlds. Why are there no fields of crops outside the huge city? What do the people eat? What does that monstrously huge drake actually eat to survive (one of the suggestions in the article I talked about, btw, was that drakes and other huge creatures go into hibernation, similar to the Tarasque)? I find there to be a big difference between making the world connect logically and tearing it apart piece by piece, requiring degrees in geology, sociology, zoology and so forth....and I suspect I'm not alone in this. Just because magic and the fantastical is a big part of the world, doesn't mean that you can't have any logic based on earthly standards. That sure makes it easier to cope with and make more consistent, both to the DM and the players.
Such explanations add elements to each giant monster that never existed before, making such encounters season sensitive and avoidable for extended periods. Already this is at odds with the created intent.
If ecology and anthroplogy of the mundane is what sells a fantasy world for you, then I am grateful your percieved effect of my ideas is in the minority in this thread.
I think your ideas are popular because they are very colorful and imaginative. However, if much of the world is composed of wildly fantastical places, they quickly become routine. They are fantastical precisely because they contrast with the mundane. Describing the mundane parts of the world makes the world more real to me, and there is certainly no conflict between mundanity/science and fun (for me anyway, and a lot of others). Making the world more logical is part of that fun, a part of immersing yourself in a world that feels like it could possibly be real. Many, many Hollywood movies and TV series wouldn't hold up to scrutiny by experts of the field in question either, but seems logical and consistent to your average person, and that's certainly plenty good enough for me in roleplaying games as well.
How sad for your case then that Dark Sun has already set an established, official precedent for "wildly fantastical places" with areas like the Silt Sea, The Deadlands, and the Cerulean Storm (all of these just in the small area of the Tablelands no less). If you're looking for a mundane, realistic gameworld, you're already in the wrong forum and good luck finding such a gameworld of magic and psionics that suits that "definition."
That's what fantasy is about to you. The strange, surreal and magical should certainly be part of any fantasy setting, but a campaign focusing e.g. mostly on war without the "high fantasy" elements can be as fun as anything else, depending on its players. People are different.
Then it's not Dark Sun. And if I recall correctly, the context of Dark Sun is the fantasy I'm currently discussing. You're obviously diverging elsewhere.
If ecology and anthroplogy of the mundane is what sells a fantasy world for you, then I am grateful your percieved effect of my ideas is in the minority in this thread.
I will give you one piece of advice for free - get off your high horse, and do it right now. You're appearing more and more as arrogant and pompous, presenting the one true truth. Your disparaging remarks are hardly necessary. You might notice how you've had no response to your second post - small wonder, when you open your post with the fantastically arrogant statement "Okay, okay, I'm here people. I am trying to read the boards daily, but I can't post on the forums every day. So please be patient."....
Making a world work from an ecological perspective (without taking a doctorate in biology) does indeed interest me - but I'd get by without it. It merely adds more flavor and realism to an already rich world. It is, however, possible to take ecology/anthroplogy into account and at the same time have high fantasy adventures, social intrigue, character development, a gallery of NPCs with a history and motivations and so forth - one thing does, strangely enough, not exclude the other. Is that very hard to understand?
How sad for your case then that Dark Sun has already set an established, official precedent for "wildly fantastical places" with areas like the Silt Sea, The Deadlands, and the Cerulean Storm (all of these just in the small area of the Tablelands no less). If you're looking for a mundane, realistic gameworld, you're already in the wrong forum and good luck finding such a gameworld of magic and psionics that suits that "definition."
If you had bothered taking a look at the official maps, you would see that a large portion of the world consists of what is (for Athas) normal terrain. Ironically, I used the the phrase "if much of the world consists of fantastical places" with the word "most" in order to modify myself, instead "most/all"...of course I'm aware that Dark Sun has fantastical places - but if that's what the world mostly consists of, what's so fantastical about them? That's what I meant. I would think it was obvious, but alas.
Even what you evidently consider as "mundane" can be quite beautiful and breath-taking - take a gander at this image, from Death Valley, and tell me if you disagree...I'm using images such as these, taken from Earth, to illustrate what Athas is all about to my players. After all, a picture...
I will indeed focus on the fantastical parts of Athas to a large degree in my campaign as well - that is part of what draws me to Dark Sun. However, if by this you fail to illustrate the non-fantastical parts, I think you're doing yourself and your players a grave disservice. If all anyone can remember and visualize of the world are the 30,000 feet high active volcanos and 100 mile long bridge where you last had an adventure, you have in my mind failed.
Then it's not Dark Sun [regarding a war campaign]. And if I recall correctly, the context of Dark Sun is the fantasy I'm currently discussing. You're obviously diverging elsewhere.
So what you're saying is, a campaign focusing e.g. on warfare between the City-States, with the PCs being generals, elite strike teams and such wouldn't be Dark Sun? Where you'd integrate all the terrain types in the Tablelands, negotiations, armies dying from lack of food and water, psionicsts controlling opposing generals, the Dragon appearing and taking his levy with force on a battlefield, a whole host of NPCs threatening, backstabbing, cajoling, pleading with and supporting the PCs...for example. Ironically, you seem to have a rather narrow definition of what Dark Sun is....
I'd just like to say that I won't take part in any further "discussions" with you - this thread deserves better than to devolve into a flame fest. Let's move along, shall we?
[throws in spiked 2x4 to see who goes for it first] :D
Amature...throw in the exploding ring-posts and barbed-wire-covered baseball bats if you really want to have fun ;)
Amature...throw in the exploding ring-posts and barbed-wire-covered baseball bats if you really want to have fun ;)
Dying is easy- beating someone with a spiked board is harder :P
Dying is easy- beating someone with a spiked board is harder :P
Naw, those things tend to just make people bleed and make lots of noise when they explode. Thumbtacks are another hot item
...You cannot create a fictional universe ruled by physical laws identical to our own that “just happens” to include magic and psionics. Does not happen, will not happen, can never happen...
Actually, I'll have to disagree with you here. It far more common to see a world based on our own, with small bits of magical elements thrown in for good measure, then a world that throws all that out the window for the chaos that would result with a world conforming to no physical/scientific laws.
The notion of "suspending your disbelief" is certainly not a new, or uncommon trait. Quite the contrary.
Like you said, we are, all of us, different when it comes to the amount of "creative licensing" in regards to reality which we can take. For most of US, however, a decent blend of either side is generally suitable, as apposed to a setting going heavily in one direction or the other. So, we try to explain physically/scientifically what we can, and let magic do the rest.
Now, as far as your ideas go.....most, if not all, are IMO completely lame.... :P
Just kidding....hee hee. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think they are a great addition to the setting. Does this mean I don't want to see any attempt at trying to explain how these events/places/etc. took place/came about...Absolutely not. Nor does it mean we HAVE to explain EVERYTHING.
...Personally, I've always hated glaringly bad logic in fantasy worlds. <<>>I find there to be a big difference between making the world connect logically and tearing it apart piece by piece, requiring degrees in geology, sociology, zoology and so forth....and I suspect I'm not alone in this. Just because magic and the fantastical is a big part of the world, doesn't mean that you can't have any logic based on earthly standards. That sure makes it easier to cope with and make more consistent, both to the DM and the players.
I think your ideas are popular because they are very colorful and imaginative. However, if much of the world is composed of wildly fantastical places, they quickly become routine. They are fantastical precisely because they contrast with the mundane. Describing the mundane parts of the world makes the world more real to me, and there is certainly no conflict between mundanity/science and fun (for me anyway, and a lot of others). Making the world more logical is part of that fun, a part of immersing yourself in a world that feels like it could possibly be real. Many, many Hollywood movies and TV series wouldn't hold up to scrutiny by experts of the field in question either, but seems logical and consistent to your average person, and that's certainly plenty good enough for me in roleplaying games as well.
That's what fantasy is about to you. The strange, surreal and magical should certainly be part of any fantasy setting, but a campaign focusing e.g. mostly on war without the "high fantasy" elements can be as fun as anything else, depending on its players. People are different.
Much agreed with!!
Anyhooo.....I think I've ranted enough for now.....keep up the creative work, both of you.
Oh, and don't feed the rabid panda.
I will give you one piece of advice for free - get off your high horse, and do it right now. You're appearing more and more as arrogant and pompous, presenting the one true truth. Your disparaging remarks are hardly necessary. You might notice how you've had no response to your second post - small wonder, when you open your post with the fantastically arrogant statement "Okay, okay, I'm here people. I am trying to read the boards daily, but I can't post on the forums every day. So please be patient."....
Is that very hard to understand?
If you had bothered taking a look at the official maps,
I would think it was obvious, but alas.
Even what you evidently consider as "mundane"
If all anyone can remember and visualize of the world are the 30,000 feet high active volcanos and 100 mile long bridge where you last had an adventure, you have in my mind failed.
Ironically, you seem to have a rather narrow definition of what Dark Sun is....
Aaahhh, so at last your true intent is revealed. Name calling, flaming, and harrassment. I'm glad you've decided to discard your facade of reason and revealed that you're not attacking my ideas, you're coming after me personally. You don't like me. Anything you can do to attack me and destroy my contributions, you'll do.
I'd just like to say that I won't take part in any further "discussions" with you - this thread deserves better than to devolve into a flame fest. Let's move along, shall we?
Oh sure. I like it when people call me arrogant and pompous. Personal attacks put me in a great frame of mind, so that I'm more responsive to something like "Can't we just move along and not flame each other." How can I possibly refuse such a gesture like that, especially when you treat me so well and ask so nicely?
I've got a better idea; rather than flaming you in kind (which you justly deserve), I leave your posts as a vivid reminder to all the boards what kind of person you are. You cannot be trusted in a discussion, because you get angry at the person you're debating and take it personally. You're a person who hurls abuses when you lose.
Well, this has been most enlightening. By all means, feel free to continue posting personal attacks and vying for the "last word."
You might notice how you've had no response to your second post - small wonder, when you open your post with the fantastically arrogant statement "Okay, okay, I'm here people. I am trying to read the boards daily, but I can't post on the forums every day. So please be patient."....
Ehh, he's got ya' there. I myself found this to be rather...well arrogant and pompous does have such a nice ring to it...ahem.
Actually, I'll have to disagree with you here. It far more common to see a world based on our own, with small bits of magical elements thrown in for good measure, then a world that throws all that out the window for the chaos that would result with a world conforming to no physical/scientific laws.
The notion of "suspending your disbelief" is certainly not a new, or uncommon trait. Quite the contrary.
Like you said, we are, all of us, different when it comes to the amount of "creative licensing" in regards to reality which we can take. For most of US, however, a decent blend of either side is generally suitable, as apposed to a setting going heavily in one direction or the other. So, we try to explain physically/scientifically what we can, and let magic do the rest.
Now, as far as your ideas go.....most, if not all, are IMO completely lame.... :P
Just kidding....hee hee. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think they are a great addition to the setting. Does this mean I don't want to see any attempt at trying to explain how these events/places/etc. took place/came about...Absolutely not. Nor does it mean we HAVE to explain EVERYTHING.
Anyhooo.....I think I've ranted enough for now.....keep up the creative work, both of you.
Oh, and don't feed the rabid panda.
Hehehe
I agree that various people have different levels of acceptance for a fictional world, but I would like to do some notekeeping on this discussion. Just so we're clear what I wrote and what I actually propose.
Contrary to what the flamer said, I've no wish to see that EVERY area of Athas is some surreal or magical landscape. If I had to suggest proportion (since no one has yet asked me) I would use the Tablelands as ROUGH basis of comparison. Most of the land will be Athas-specific variations on more conventional landscapes, but more exotic, magical lands appear as a recurring theme, just like in the official Dark Sun maps.
As for creative license, I think staying within the established parameters of Denning and Brown is sufficient. Their level of scientific accuracy (or lack of) was displayed clearly in the boxed sets and I will continue to offer ideas within those parameters.
Thanks for the kind words. I needed some
Ehh, he's got ya' there. I myself found this to be rather...well arrogant and pompous does have such a nice ring to it...ahem.
Really? How so? Was my response not appropriate? Let's review shall we...
I am disappointed that more people aren't posting on this thread.
Mr. March, where are you at?
Sounds pretty urgent and immediate to me, so I responded requesting some patience...
Okay, okay, I'm here people. I am trying to read the boards daily, but I can't post on the forums every day. So please be patient.
A little flustered, to the point, and polite. Just what the post required.
If there are some rules against being personable and polite, let me know. As far as I've read, I'm not the person breaking rules in this thread so far. I think we all know who that is.
Hey Brian- need more maps and/or spellform to keep the kids occupied on this thread- :D - and I am missing areas on my wall still
:P On another related note- I cannot seem to find the site Greyorm is using to host your creations- I think I am missing some that you have already created. Or are they on Xlore's site. I cannot remember.
i think most all of the maps i've made are on xlorep's page...though in the hustle-n-bustle i admittedly may have missed sending one or two to him. if anything there's always the .psd's on the Rev's site.
i have copies myself so if you do know which ones you're missing just hit me up for copies and i'll send 'em along.
hehehe! i failed my save and am under Gaes to do some mapwork, i'll have a grip of stuff to post on monday or tuesday! ;)
i think most all of the maps i've made are on xlorep's page...though in the hustle-n-bustle i admittedly may have missed sending one or two to him. if anything there's always the .psd's on the Rev's site.
i have copies myself so if you do know which ones you're missing just hit me up for copies and i'll send 'em along.
Sweet- I will drop you a line- I do not know for sure which ones i am missing so i may just ask if yo can send them all to me. I will check and se first though.
Looking forward to more of you maps (and pictures if you know what I mean! ;) )
hehehe! i failed my save and am under Gaes to do some mapwork, i'll have a grip of stuff to post on monday or tuesday! ;)
i think most all of the maps i've made are on xlorep's page...though in the hustle-n-bustle i admittedly may have missed sending one or two to him. if anything there's always the .psd's on the Rev's site.
i have copies myself so if you do know which ones you're missing just hit me up for copies and i'll send 'em along.
Some of the latest ones haven't been sent my way to put them up there -- not that I have the time to put them up there currently. I'll eventually be able to correct that, even if I have to download the PSD's from Raven's site, and make more .JPG's.
If ecology and anthroplogy of the mundane is what sells a fantasy world for you, then I am grateful your percieved effect of my ideas is in the minority in this thread.
and
How sad for your case then that Dark Sun has already set an established, official precedent for "wildly fantastical places" with areas like the Silt Sea, The Deadlands, and the Cerulean Storm (all of these just in the small area of the Tablelands no less). If you're looking for a mundane, realistic gameworld, you're already in the wrong forum and good luck finding such a gameworld of magic and psionics that suits that "definition."
and
Then it's not Dark Sun. And if I recall correctly, the context of Dark Sun is the fantasy I'm currently discussing. You're obviously diverging elsewhere.
Obviously darksoulman quickly escalated it to a much higher and more personal level
, but I don't think it very appropriate of you to bait him and then hypocritically make statements like:Aaahhh, so at last your true intent is revealed. Name calling, flaming, and harrassment. I'm glad you've decided to discard your facade of reason and revealed that you're not attacking my ideas, you're coming after me personally. You don't like me. Anything you can do to attack me and destroy my contributions, you'll do.
and
I've got a better idea; rather than flaming you in kind (which you justly deserve), I leave your posts as a vivid reminder to all the boards what kind of person you are. You cannot be trusted in a discussion, because you get angry at the person you're debating and take it personally. You're a person who hurls abuses when you lose.
Well, this has been most enlightening. By all means, feel free to continue posting personal attacks and vying for the "last word."
Which is quite obviously a return flame and a vye for the last word despite its internal denial of being such
. If you really want to take the high ground
, Mr March, I would suggest apoligizing to Darksoulman. Whatever you differences are there is no reason for you two to devolve into such petty name calling.I would like to think that these two elements exist on opposite ends of a continuum. Some folks prefer more reality, and others prefer fantasy. For some, biological details help to make a fantasy setting more believeable, for others, these elements are just cumbersome details which players don't want to learn about anyways.
As we flesh out the Dark Sun world, I think that it is important to flesh out things in the context of cause and effect. The details we add should make sense. Whether you think that ecological explanations about how a forest ecosystem can survive with or without worms or bees is a matter of personal preference than dogma.
I do think that Darksoulman makes a good point (but I don't think that it necessarily contradicts what you were trying to say) in that too much wildly fantastic stuff diminishes from our campaigns rather than adding to it. One flying castle? Wow! A fleet of flying castles battling with another fleet of flying castles? Ehhhh...
In the same way, I have always been skeptical about some Athasian ecology. For instance, why are all the plants vicious carnivorous plants? How come there are so many giagantic animals in a barren place (what do these huge creatures eat?)? How come there is such a preponderance of huge predators in areas with almost no other life?
I think that both areas of our newly evolving Athas can be developed further -from the fantastic, to the nitty gritty, so I think that there is enough space for both of Darksoulman's and Mr. March's ideas here. I think that it would be best for folks to agree to disagree and work our own areas of interest. There is no need to not be civil.
itf
I hope this thread can soon get back to more good ideas and less discussion about the 'Right' way to develop a campaign setting. I suggest the article on the ecology of Athas mentioned earlier as I found it to be quite interesting. As I recall it was not meant to explain all aspects of the world in a scientific fashion but rather to give advice on how to include small ecological details in you game in order to make the world feel more alive and 3 dimensional. It also has an interesting discussion of how magic and psionics MIGHT interact with normal evolution.
I am not sure if this will help clarify any of the discussions but I believe there is a difference between a magical landscape and a landscape shaped by magic. In the former case magic (or psionics) is what gives the landscape its defining qualities. If the magic were not present then the area would not be able to exist. The pristine tower comes to mind as such a location. Although I am not positive it uses magic (may be lifeshaping) it does cause anyone in the area who gets even a scratch to mutate into a new beast. A landscape shaped by magic on the other hand is more akin to the landscapes we see on earth although in some cases more fantastic. The deadlands are an example of this type of landscape. Although it certainly does not feel natural and is crawling with undead I am aware of no major way in which the landscape would be altered. The lava plug example earlier in this thread also may be useful to look at. If the characters came upon such a feature it would not be immediately obvious how it was created. It could have been an ancient volcano or a long dead defiler that raised it but there is no obvious way to tell (the magical aura is long gone which the magic that may have created it). In my campaign I use more of the magically shaped landscapes because it fits my idea of Athas as a natural world (as it more or less was in the blue age) ravaged by thousands of years of defiling magic. I do not consider magic to be natural in Dark Sun but rather an affliction that is destroying nature. I try to portray this idea in my campaign by keeping magic for the most part separate from nature.
Finally I think that this thread is an amazing source of ideas and the people posting in it should be commended. Brian especially, thanks for the maps and interesting locations on them. I may not use all of them as I to enjoy a barren Athas beyond the tablelands but it is nice to have them nonetheless. On the topic though I think it would be nice if on one of the sites the maps are posted there could be the descriptive text available with them so we would be able to figure out what Brian was thinking of when he made them.
Looking back through the text it's quite evident actually, that you Mr. March, started the flaming. The first inflammatory statments appear in your post:
Like Ruhl said...I don't like it when someone becomes personal, which makes me respond in kind. Sorry for the distraction people, although it looked like some enjoyed it :D
you're coming after me personally. You don't like me. Anything you can do to attack me and destroy my contributions, you'll do.
Just had to include this, I found it rather hilarious...
I hope this thread can soon get back to more good ideas and less discussion about the 'Right' way to develop a campaign setting. I suggest the article on the ecology of Athas mentioned earlier as I found it to be quite interesting. As I recall it was not meant to explain all aspects of the world in a scientific fashion but rather to give advice on how to include small ecological details in you game in order to make the world feel more alive and 3 dimensional. It also has an interesting discussion of how magic and psionics MIGHT interact with normal evolution.
I am not sure if this will help clarify any of the discussions but I believe there is a difference between a magical landscape and a landscape shaped by magic...
Hi Phlama, must say I totally agree with your view on Athas, good stuff and succintly put. Very good stuff
Looking back through the text it's quite evident actually, that you Mr. March, started the flaming. The first inflammatory statments appear in your post:
Obviously darksoulman quickly escalated it to a much higher and more personal level
Which is quite obviously a return flame and a vye for the last word despite its internal denial of being such
If you really want to take the high ground
That's an interesting spin. How sad for your case that there is no baiting on my behalf.
When a member launches into criticism, the burden of proof is upon them to prove the other in error. The moment someone quotes my post and disagrees, I'm permitted to defend my position...vigorously if necessary.
I've established pattern backed up by official precendent for my position (so we're all clear, that would be the existence of surreal, magical lands in the Dark Sun setting as published in official products). So far, the criticism amounts to personal preference, nothing more. The initial criticizing post clearly read as much (since we're monitoring every written word so closely now). Failure to rationaly deal with my retort is what escalated into me being flamed.
Also, I'd ask that you don't misrepresent me...
If you really want to take the high ground
I've given no such abuse, yet here you write a generalization that attempts to label me as one of two name-callers. I'd suggest your apology for this misrepresentation, if - in your own words - "you really want to take the high ground"
If you wish to help this thread, please allow me to reciprocate your suggestion with one of my own; stop taking sides rather than honestly offering a real solution.
If the highroad is not the path that is taken, then perhaps that we could agree that both elements of fantasy and reality have their place in the Dark Sun World.
I would like to think that these two elements exist on opposite ends of a continuum. Some folks prefer more reality, and others prefer fantasy. For some, biological details help to make a fantasy setting more believeable, for others, these elements are just cumbersome details which players don't want to learn about anyways.
As we flesh out the Dark Sun world, I think that it is important to flesh out things in the context of cause and effect. The details we add should make sense. Whether you think that ecological explanations about how a forest ecosystem can survive with or without worms or bees is a matter of personal preference than dogma.
I do think that Darksoulman makes a good point (but I don't think that it necessarily contradicts what you were trying to say) in that too much wildly fantastic stuff diminishes from our campaigns rather than adding to it. One flying castle? Wow! A fleet of flying castles battling with another fleet of flying castles? Ehhhh...
In the same way, I have always been skeptical about some Athasian ecology. For instance, why are all the plants vicious carnivorous plants? How come there are so many giagantic animals in a barren place (what do these huge creatures eat?)? How come there is such a preponderance of huge predators in areas with almost no other life?
I think that both areas of our newly evolving Athas can be developed further -from the fantastic, to the nitty gritty, so I think that there is enough space for both of Darksoulman's and Mr. March's ideas here. I think that it would be best for folks to agree to disagree and work our own areas of interest. There is no need to not be civil.
itf
Sounds reasonable and rational. While I've yet to seriously detail how frequent and in what proportions my surreal/magical lands on Athas should appear, I have been a staunch proponent of maintaining the theme of the maps in the official Dark Sun sets.
I think expanding the theme and continuity of those official maps into the global expansions of Athas only makes sense. And it's fun.
Perhaps I can revise an already existing map to better illustrate my ideas. This map can then be posted in this thread as an example. I do think better visually. I'll see what I can do.
doesn't everyone know that?:fight!:
:surrender 
what do the big monsters eat? I thought you knew... they eat the players and their henchmen of course
:fight!:
Ya- haven't you ever wondered where all of the 1st level NPCs go- they are the ones that say, "Wow! This cactus patch had a bunch of shade and would be a great place to rest!"
Don’t you know that everything in the game is actually in a temporal stasis until the PC’s actually arrive- why else would they always arrive at the last moment and during the most critical points- the world revolves around them and noting happens with out them being around to take part. Duh!:rolleye2: :D
Sounds reasonable and rational. While I've yet to seriously detail how frequent and in what proportions my surreal/magical lands on Athas should appear, I have been a staunch proponent of maintaining the theme of the maps in the official Dark Sun sets.
I think expanding the theme and continuity of those official maps into the global expansions of Athas only makes sense. And it's fun.
Perhaps I can revise an already existing map to better illustrate my ideas. This map can then be posted in this thread as an example. I do think better visually. I'll see what I can do.
Though I do like the ideas you origionaly posted I think it may be a bit hasty to use the tablelands as basis for the number of surreal/magical features on Athas. The tablelands seem to have been the center of worldshaping events on Athas and therefore are likly to have to have the most scars left on the land. The prestine tower has arguably been the source of the most drastic effects in Athas' history. A war on the scale of the cleaning wars and even the defiler preserver jehad are likly unique in athas' history also. It seems logical to me that there are no other structures of the prestine towers power as the sun has not mysteriously changed color without its use. Likewise since rajaat was the source of arcane magic and he was from the tablelands it stands to reason that the tablelands will have a far higher concentration of magical scars/phenomena then anywhere else on athas. I think that there is a place for the landscapes you describe but I see them as a rarity and that the farther from the tablelands you go the less magic has affected the land. At least thats how I run my campaign.
That's an interesting spin. How sad for your case that there is no baiting on my behalf.
I'm not upset because I don't care enough about what people I don't even know say on the boards, but I would like you to understand that statements like this are inflamatory and trite sounding. Calling peoples comments spin and saying how sad whether intended as bait or not can and often does have that effect.
I'm sorry if you got the impression that I was taking Darksoulman's side, because I wasn't. I was trying to help you, because I thought I might be able to appeal to your higher sensibilities. I still think that your position was better articulated and of greater merit than Darksoulman's, just my personal opinion.
But, the fact of the matter is. Neither one of you can definatively prove the other wrong, nor should you feel the need to. If someone doesn't want to adopt your perspective you can't force them.
If you don't believe that the statements that I quoted previously; especially the underlined parts of them are inflammatory, then I think you should take another look and consider how you would have felt if someone had said such things to you.
Please vacate this thread and let Brian do his thing, and let us comment it. If need be start your own thread about what Athas trully means and argue in it to your heart's content.
Amen brother!
I second that!
I like pie.
What do you mean?
Apple or Cherry?
Since these posts are rather long, I was worried about the temper of all the peoples graviting around this thread.
Another thing I'd like to see is some non-standard terrain. One of the things I've always liked about Athas was the possibility of bizzare, surreal, almost magical landscapes. The planet itself has been twisted and defiled by magic, so lets make it look so. The Silt Sea, Deadlands, and Cerulean Storm were all great concepts, but I want to see more. I want to see deserts of jet black and crimson red sand or plains of ash. I want to see a domain of a hundred, rocky plateaus made of purple shale. I want to see zones of hideous brown vegetation that poison monsters/animals and evaporate water, spreading like a plague. I want to see a vast flat region of white sand pierced by a single, lonely mountain of blood-red obsidian so tall and narrow, its like Athas itself was pierced by an enormous dagger, wounding the very land. I want to see a land of white upon the horizon, only to discover to one’s horror hills and valleys of bleached white bones and skulls as far as the eye can see. I want to see a sparse forest of leafless, black trees as tall as the highest Sorcerer-King's tower withering in a land of strange, gray pebbles and dust. I want to see a range of ignited natural gas geysers that have been aflame for thousands of years, since the sun was turned crimson. I want to see an abandoned bridge so vast, it takes weeks to cross the vast chasm which it spans. I want to see...something that's never been seen before.
So, there are my first few posts. I hope what I’ve written is useful.
Okey, wow! I just read this, sounds good to me!
But you guys, I'm with Pen. Okey I know I'm not your dad or anything, plus I'm pretty new on these boards, so I don't have much to say here, but...honestly
, personal debates really don't belong here. I, for me, see these boards as a place to place your ideas and questions, sometimes arguments can be good but personally attacking each other....all I wanted to say about that...Now kiss and make up!
but he promised! What do you mean?
Apple or Cherry?
Both, actually.
I dont really have followed the thread, but what's UP with it? I do remember having read nice comments about the new addition of these peoples to athasian settings and now they are shunt upon.
Yea, I want more maps, really. Brian's work has been phenominal so far, and I want to see maps for all the little rectangles in the world map fleshed out. Then I can populate it to my heart's content with my own view of Dark Sun and enjoy. This thread has been inspirational in my campaign developments
Since these posts are rather long, I was worried about the temper of all the peoples graviting around this thread.
Agreed. People really need to learn to chill out, not get into personal bickering contests here. I have tried, very hard to not directly comment on it all, because it just disgusts me that people came in and have been (probably inadvertantly) ruining this thread.
That aside- I have been looking over the maps and I think the area of C9 would be a sweet place to have a pirate type of setting.
Agreed. People really need to learn to chill out, not get into personal bickering contests here. I have tried, very hard to not directly comment on it all, because it just disgusts me that people came in and have been (probably inadvertantly) ruining this thread.
I'm in the same basket as Sage, that being that people we don't know, arguing on the boards we've been a part of for years, and flinging venom at each other even though they don't know each other, elicits only indifference from us.
I'd just like to apologize for the mess that's been caused by me (and that other guy) in this very good thread. After posting the first venomous answer to Mr March, I realized the mess this could lead to, and thus abstained from further comment and petty "but you started it"/"but you said "/ posts. Nevertheless, I'd like to apologize to the regulars for coming in with such a brash attitude (that's what comes from hanging out at slightly more hostile parts of the wizards boards...), and I sincerely hope this thread will continue on its regular track of creative and inspiring content. I know I've found treasure troves here to use in my own campaign, and I sincerely appreciate it.
what do the big monsters eat? I thought you knew... they eat the players and their henchmen of course
:fight!:
Ya- haven't you ever wondered where all of the 1st level NPCs go- they are the ones that say, "Wow! This cactus patch had a bunch of shade and would be a great place to rest!"
Don’t you know that everything in the game is actually in a temporal stasis until the PC’s actually arrive- why else would they always arrive at the last moment and during the most critical points- the world revolves around them and noting happens with out them being around to take part. Duh!:rolleye2: :D
so true...Like yourself, I'm new to these boards (wrote a short intro on another thread). I have to say I TOTALLY agree with your ideas, and love the imagery you've created here. I'll certainly use some of them in the campaign I'm starting up (although I will mostly focus on the Tyr region at first, naturally...low-level PCs don't have any business travelling too far away from home imo
So forgive me about this response. I've already PMed Brian, but I would like to see a jungle that's been/being lifeshaped and ruled by lifeshaped.
Really? How so? Was my response not appropriate? Let's review shall we...
Sounds pretty urgent and immediate to me, so I responded requesting some patience...
A little flustered, to the point, and polite. Just what the post required.
If there are some rules against being personable and polite, let me know. As far as I've read, I'm not the person breaking rules in this thread so far. I think we all know who that is.
That's the problem with internet posting: Sometimes no matter what your mood, what you type can be taken several different ways. This is because it lacks 2 very important communication cues--vocal inflections and body language/facial expressions.
I do like some of your ideas, Mr. March. But I got both emotional reads off your statement, pompous/arrogant AND polite/flustered. I know I don't post much, so forgive me. You can't see my face or hear my voice. :P
I like pie.
WTF! A Beast Wars reference?!
WTF! A Beast Wars reference?!
Not to my knowledge, since I've never seen "Beast Wars". Actually, I was making a South Park reference, with Cartman's "Punch and Pie" comments.
So forgive me about this response. I've already PMed Brian, but I would like to see a jungle that's been/being lifeshaped and ruled by lifeshaped.
what about the jungle/swamp rajaat trashed?
what about the jungle/swamp rajaat trashed?
That wasn't lifeshaped. Or even close to it.
the region north of the Drake's Tail Peninsula is known as the Brown Lands, an area fleshed out by METHVEZEM. this is the northern area of the map he supplied me.
Where could I find Methvezem's information on the Brown Lands?
Also, am I the only one having trouble unzipping the files from the Athasian Cartographer's Guild ? I get errors in the extraction process that results in no files.
[pokes Brian with sharp stick]Maps?
:D - Hi just checking in with you. ;)
Where could I find Methvezem's information on the Brown Lands?
Also, am I the only one having trouble unzipping the files from the Athasian Cartographer's Guild ? I get errors in the extraction process that results in no files.
WHAT? I forgot to put a darksun links on my web site which own the HUGIEST darksun links page of all the net!? Shame on me.
Where could I find Methvezem's information on the Brown Lands?
Its an ongoing web project, it currently exists only on his personal computer and his multiply webpage.
Not to my knowledge, since I've never seen "Beast Wars". Actually, I was making a South Park reference, with Cartman's "Punch and Pie" comments.
Doh! I forgot about him. I used to see the comment parodied in the various Transformer forums for Cheetor.
what about the jungle/swamp rajaat trashed?
You mean the one at the bottom of the Jagged Cliffs?
The Athasian Cartographer's Guild isn't being found.
It just loaded for me.
Also, am I the only one having trouble unzipping the files from the Athasian Cartographer's Guild ? I get errors in the extraction process that results in no files.
JayL,
As far as I can tell, there are no problems with the files on my end. What unzipping program (and version thereof) are you using? Is it all the files on the site, or just a few/one specifically? Hopefully we can get this worked out for you!
Also, for anyone that has had any problems accessing the ACG, apparently there was a DDOS attack directed towards my hosting provider, which might have resulted in intermittent 404s. I didn't have any trouble myself, but if you have, try again and you should be able to access the site fine.
JayL,
As far as I can tell, there are no problems with the files on my end. What unzipping program (and version thereof) are you using? Is it all the files on the site, or just a few/one specifically? Hopefully we can get this worked out for you!
I'm using WinRAR 3.20. As far as I can tell, it's every file. I get this error when I try to unzip them:
! C:...\C3_v2.zip: Unknown method in athas_GNS_area_C3v2.psd
! C:...\C3_v2.zip: No files to extract
I'll download another extraction utility and see if it works with that.
Okay, they seem to extract fine with the newest version of Winzip. So I guess if anyone runs into a similar problem, just update your extraction utility.
WinRAR's been having problems. check out 7-Zip -- it's open-source, completely free (not shareware/nagware), and handles opening all formats. It can save in either the "standard Windows compression format" (.ZIP), or in it's own high-compression .7z format.
Anybody have any ideas for E1? It appears to be one of the most boring areas on the map, but I am sure somebody here can come up with something interesting for what appears to be just a large island of mountains emerging up from the silt.
Sounds like a great place for an aarakocran kingdom of some sort.
southwest of the tablelands is the western regions of the unforgiving, black obsidian plain known as the Deadlands. at it's furthest edge the obsidian gives way to the southern end of the Jagged Cliffs and the Brownlands beyond. the southern city of the Kreen, Kzz'Klktla, lies in the Crimson Savannah several hundred miles beyond the cliff base and is the southernmost city in their vast Empire. deep in the Western Deadlands is a city of obsidian that was once a very affluent metropolis during the Green Age. at the start of the Cleansing Wars the city became xenophobic to the extreme and closed its walls to all outsiders. though this saved them for a while from the ravages of the wars, it also closed them off to the events that were slowly encroaching upon their home. when the flows of magma and obsidian washed across the western regions and swallowed their great city they were completely unaware. the city, now known as Nocturnus, is a silent and sun-scorched hell during the day...but as with many locations throughout the Deadlands...becomes a bustling necropolis at night crawling with tens of thousands of undead...all of whom do the bidding of their xenophobic queen...a powerful undead being whose name is long since forgotten and is now known only as the Basalt Empress...
Anyway- just a nit-pic thing here but the cities you have on the map are in the water- is this planned or is it a flub?
Sable Falls looks like it would be a great place to base an adventuring party out of to head into the Dead Lands- it would also be a great place for my morterren asps to hunt for food!
Has anyone run any campaigns where this matters? Anyway, i greatly look forward to your feedback!! Thanks a ton, I'll post pics if you all say you wanna' see 'em (or if i can)!
~B-)
YOU Freakin Rock, I've been trying to put something like this together for a long time. Thanks for the Gr8 work
Scott
i want everyone to benefit from the work that i'm doing and to be creative when using it for themselves. in the end, this project is mostly for myself, I’m not really expecting it to be canon or widely accepted as canon. If anything I posted all these images up because I wanted to see where everyone had taken the setting individually and allow them to expand or create more maps for their own campaigns and to share with the community at large. As far as the world map that I’m basing it all on goes, I chose it primarily because it was displayed on a large portion of sites dedicated to Dark Sun.
Its Canon in my campaign, you do exceptional work, please continue
GR8Scott358
Galek Sandstrider
i instead will be expanding out the Thri-kreen Empire, areas B5, C4, and C5 respectively. some would argue that this empire is more vast than just a few grid regions; but three grid regions is enough in my mind (that's three times the size of the tablelands alone)! so expect area C4 sometime today or tomorrow and others to follow shortly!
It seem that your last map as a small problem.
The cities arent on the land, they are in the ocean (maybe that's what you were looking for but) I mean all of them. It's like if your city layer as moved somehow because all cities seem to have moved the same way.
Am I wrong or correct?
deeper west into the Crimson Savannah lies the Heart of the Kreen Empire, the vast capitol hive of Tz'Klk'Tekt (insert other suitable Kreenie name here), a sprawl of organic Kreen structures several tens of miles in diameter. this is the heart of Kreen civilization. the great Kreen emporer resides in this hive, surrounded by an army of xixchil.
strangely, further west the Kreen lands give way to a high plateau, the Avandaellen Plateau, that was once the center of elven maritime commerce during the Green Age. perched at the southern edge of this highland is the ruins of an ancient seaside city, Saevendel. nearby is the last decayed remnants of a crumbling Green Age lighthouse (the savannah below was once under a fairly shallow sea). the city itself is now nothing more than worn walls and petrified forest much like its sister city, Fanalost, to the northwest.
Fanalost is another ancient elven ruin. the eastern ridge of the Broken Delve Mountains cradles a lush forest that has literally regrown over the millenia around an even more ancient and now petrified forest. throughout this wooded area are the large trunks of once grand and magnificent trees, all of which are now stone and long extinct as a species of plant on Athas. in Fanalost proper, some of the Elven structures hang decaying and brittle from the mighty petrified remnants of these once beautiful trees.
north of the Kreen Empire is the Great Northern Sea. there are a few scattered Kreen outposts on the edge of this area, but they tend to not like the humidity that wells up from the mudflats and huge body of water below. to the west is the Southern World's Edge Mountain Range and further south the Kreen Empire gives way to Sable Falls and the Misty Sea near the Brownlands.
The Thri'Kreen dominate the southern end of the Crimson Savannah before it gives way to the Misty Sea and the Ochre Steppes further south. Five large Kreen cities can be found in this region as well as some smaller villages and forts. to the northeast, skirting the edge of the Empire is a vast stretch of bitter, caustic salt marsh. this area is probably the last testament to the large sea that once comprised most of what is now the Crimson Savannah. at the center of the salt marsh stands the Acrid Shrine - an odd semi-organic structure of unknown and ancient origin. not much is known of this location simply because the Kreen have a very hard time in the salt marshes, and usually avoid traveling through them. that and the high salt content of the marsh can make it acidic in some areas, enough to burn exposed flesh.
a large plateau rises from the savannah to the north on which the Kreen have founded a large city as well as a garrisoned outpost (from which groups of Kreen venture into the marsh). in the heart of the mountains that crown this plateau there is a massive face carved into the side of a high mountain. it's stern, weathered stone features face to the east. below this graven image is a series of cave complexes and tunnels...silent and long forgotten.
Oh ya- Brian. I e-mailed you and was wondering if you would send me all of your maps that you have done to date and perhaps some of the othe artwork you have posted here on the board- thanks.
as for copies of recent images and the artwork for your spellform, i'll be sending them out to you over the weekend. i've been spending the last week organizing files that up to this point were split between my work computer and my home computer. the last few maps were found during this process and i think there are probably 3 or 4 more that may be close to finished or at least 65% done. i compiled everything at home now so it's all nice and neat and good to go. sorry to keep you in anticipation! i'll hurry up and get it out to you.
I must say that these maps are consistently wonderful. However, I do have one small beef (well...make that two).
First - Is it just me, or is, like, 75-80% of the Thri-kreen Empire inhospitable, or at the very least unhihabitated by, thri-kreen.
To Explain - In the Wanderer's Chronicle (p. 100) it states the following:
"The kreen cities and villages closest to the Jagged Cliffs (which appear on the maps included with this boxed set) lie on the frontier of the empire."
This means that it is but a small part of a much greater whole, and yet on these maps, it is the single most populated area in the supposed Thri-kreen Empire. IMO the Thri-kreen Empire should span, at the very least, the following areas:
D4 and the northwestern tip of D5 (obviously :P )
ALL of C4 (this being the most likely place for the heart of the Empire) and C5 (with the exception of the southeastern corner of C5)
and most likely expanding into portions of areas:
C3, D3, B3-5 (3's questionable), and C6
Also, in regards to the T-K E. the officially recognized sea to the west is still non-present.
Secondly - To put it plainly, the Deadlands is WAY TO FREAKIN' HUGE!!!!!
1) - personally i still want the TKE to take up a limited portion of the western part of this particular continent. expansive as they may be, i just don't see them as THAT expansive.
2) - the reason for number 1 above and the foundation for number 2 is simple. sheer SCALE. the overall area of the Eastern Continent of Athas is approximately 4 million+ square miles (marginally bigger than the continental united states). the tablelands comprises a rectangular area 450 miles by 350 miles...that's 157,500 SQUARE MILES, merely .03% of the overall landmass BUT to give you an idea of size, california (one of the largest states) is 163,707 square miles (which is only .04% of the US). that being said, the TKE is located in 3 grid areas and smaller parts of 5 other regions (eastern edge of B5, lower edge of C3, lower edge of D3, over a 1/3 of D4, and the northern edge of C6) which basically gives it an approximate overall area of 787,500+ SQUARE MILES - over 3 times the size of texas and bigger than alaska (the largest state in the US); OR in Athasian terms nearly 20% of the entire continent! that's a LOT of room and is much bigger than any civilized area in the entire eastern continent. to me this is ENOUGH for a current model. not to say they won't go further, but it's a good start for a campaign of expansion because...
3) - despite being so expansive in nature, the TKE has yet to expand further because of geological/environmental obsticles. the great rift now opens up the tablelands to them so an eastern expansion is definitely probable. it makes it MORE probable if the areas west, north and south of them are already inhabited by other races, or environmentally unfriendly to them, or similarly as inaccessable as the tablelands once were. the map of D3 is dominated by the Empire of Storms, and they've been fighting the Kreen invasion for some time now (a reason why they themselves haven't ventured into the tablelands or area D4). this powerful empire has kept the kreen at bay and thus they haven't expanded further northward in this area. the southern end of C6 is inhabited by the reggilid society as well as the Misty Sea and Sable Falls; which would be adverse to the Kreen expansion in terms of society AND environment. the World's Edge Mountains in areas B3 and B4 act as a sort of western wall that pretty much prevents the Kreen from going any further west. that's not to say they haven't tried, but marching an army of Kreen over these high mountains to simply reach silt is probably rather pointless to the Kreen. i can see them nestled up in the southwestern corner of B4, maybe an outpost or a single city, but nothing more. to all intents and purposes there is much more land eastward than there is westward. to the north is the Great Northern Sea. this massive body of water can take the place of the sea referenced in the published material easily, despite not being EXACTLY west of the TKE it does lie northwestward and to slap yet ANOTHER large body of water on the map would probably cause quite a debate (i have been accused of putting to much green and water on these maps already). :P
in the end what i have presented is merely my own idea as to how it all lays out; but everyone is free to change it as they see fit. if you want the TKE huge, dominating the entire western side of the continent then by all means have fun and do it. don't be bound by what i've presented here. i agree that the Deadlands seem huge, and i've been wrestling with that for a while. in all honesty i'm patiently awaiting the release of the Deadlands supplement from athas.org before i make any real movements towards mapping that area. however it works out, i'll keep the plain of obsidian in C6 and C7, but depending may drop it out of regions D7, E6 and E7. again, i'm awaiting futher info. as it stands i have areas D11, E3, E11, F5, F6, F7, and F11 in the works and they'll round out areas that are part of the major landmass and poles. outside that i have areas B9-10, D1, D9, E1, E9, F4 and G8 that comprise small locations in the silt ocean. then...it's on to the central continent!! :D
well there are three major reasons for what i have presented for Thri'Kreen Empire (TKE) so far...
1) - personally i still want the TKE to take up a limited portion of the western part of this particular continent. expansive as they may be, i just don't see them as THAT expansive.
You mean to tell me that in what, 20,000 or so years (since the end of the Blue Age) you don't think they'd have spread to cover everything west of the Jagged Cliffs? We're talking about a species that breeds quickly, lives very short lives (anbd mature very quickly), which to me would translate to being a race where a mild population explosion of rabbits would have nothing compared to the average annual population growth of the Kreen.
Personally, I earmark that whole western expanse as theirs. And that's considerably less than I originally had envisioned before you started these maps (I had seen the Jagged Cliffs as a continental shelf, and the Tohr-Kreen had expanded throughout the entire world, well, the entirety of the ocean basins).
2) - the reason for number 1 above and the foundation for number 2 is simple. sheer SCALE. the overall area of the Eastern Continent of Athas is approximately 4 million+ square miles (marginally bigger than the continental united states). the tablelands comprises a rectangular area 450 miles by 350 miles...that's 157,500 SQUARE MILES, merely .03% of the overall landmass BUT to give you an idea of size, california (one of the largest states) is 163,707 square miles (which is only .04% of the US). that being said, the TKE is located in 3 grid areas and smaller parts of 5 other regions (eastern edge of B5, lower edge of C3, lower edge of D3, over a 1/3 of D4, and the northern edge of C6) which basically gives it an approximate overall area of 787,500+ SQUARE MILES - over 3 times the size of texas and bigger than alaska (the largest state in the US); OR in Athasian terms nearly 20% of the entire continent! that's a LOT of room and is much bigger than any civilized area in the entire eastern continent. to me this is ENOUGH for a current model. not to say they won't go further, but it's a good start for a campaign of expansion because...
Think China. How many people live there? At a human birth rate and maturity rate? For how long? Adjust to the Kreen, and bam, you got one hell of a lot of Kreen.
3) - despite being so expansive in nature, the TKE has yet to expand further because of geological/environmental obsticles. the great rift now opens up the tablelands to them so an eastern expansion is definitely probable. it makes it MORE probable if the areas west, north and south of them are already inhabited by other races, or environmentally unfriendly to them, or similarly as inaccessable as the tablelands once were. the map of D3 is dominated by the Empire of Storms, and they've been fighting the Kreen invasion for some time now (a reason why they themselves haven't ventured into the tablelands or area D4). this powerful empire has kept the kreen at bay and thus they haven't expanded further northward in this area. the southern end of C6 is inhabited by the reggilid society as well as the Misty Sea and Sable Falls; which would be adverse to the Kreen expansion in terms of society AND environment. the World's Edge Mountains in areas B3 and B4 act as a sort of western wall that pretty much prevents the Kreen from going any further west. that's not to say they haven't tried, but marching an army of Kreen over these high mountains to simply reach silt is probably rather pointless to the Kreen. i can see them nestled up in the southwestern corner of B4, maybe an outpost or a single city, but nothing more. to all intents and purposes there is much more land eastward than there is westward. to the north is the Great Northern Sea. this massive body of water can take the place of the sea referenced in the published material easily, despite not being EXACTLY west of the TKE it does lie northwestward and to slap yet ANOTHER large body of water on the map would probably cause quite a debate (i have been accused of putting to much green and water on these maps already). :P
in the end what i have presented is merely my own idea as to how it all lays out; but everyone is free to change it as they see fit. if you want the TKE huge, dominating the entire western side of the continent then by all means have fun and do it. don't be bound by what i've presented here. i agree that the Deadlands seem huge, and i've been wrestling with that for a while. in all honesty i'm patiently awaiting the release of the Deadlands supplement from athas.org before i make any real movements towards mapping that area. however it works out, i'll keep the plain of obsidian in C6 and C7, but depending may drop it out of regions D7, E6 and E7. again, i'm awaiting futher info. as it stands i have areas D11, E3, E11, F5, F6, F7, and F11 in the works and they'll round out areas that are part of the major landmass and poles. outside that i have areas B9-10, D1, D9, E1, E9, F4 and G8 that comprise small locations in the silt ocean. then...it's on to the central continent!! :D
You do have some interesting ideas in those regions. I personally am still sticking with the idea that there is nothing except the Kreen in the Western part of the continent. Other cultures/civilizations can pop up on other continents.
You mean to tell me that in what, 20,000 or so years (since the end of the Blue Age) you don't think they'd have spread to cover everything west of the Jagged Cliffs? We're talking about a species that breeds quickly, lives very short lives (anbd mature very quickly), which to me would translate to being a race where a mild population explosion of rabbits would have nothing compared to the average annual population growth of the Kreen.
Personally, I earmark that whole western expanse as theirs. And that's considerably less than I originally had envisioned before you started these maps (I had seen the Jagged Cliffs as a continental shelf, and the Tohr-Kreen had expanded throughout the entire world, well, the entirety of the ocean basins).
penn and i discussed this earlier this week. he's of the same mind as yourself. my arguement was that during the Blue Age the kreen were nothing more than beasts, no real culture or society or anything they were to all intents and purposes beastial and animalistic. at this time i'm sure the halflings kept their numbers from growing too large by hunting them and generally trimming their numbers. when the Green Age began and the oceans shrank up, the kreen experienced a sort of population decrease due to a change in their natural environment. when the rebirth began they too were beginning to adapt, but not at a cost in numbers (such is the way with evolution).
Think China. How many people live there? At a human birth rate and maturity rate? For how long? Adjust to the Kreen, and bam, you got one hell of a lot of Kreen.
china has had plenty of natural resources to help along the population boom and still has resources to support it (at least for a while). that and the Chinese don't have to compete with any other animal in that area for said resources. by the time the kreen had evolved the Rebirth races had begun to spread and thrive, all of these races were competing with the kreen for the same resources (food, water, land) some races, like elves, might have been victim to these "neanderthal" kreen (having formed a rudimentary and nomadic tribal system) and were a food source. other races might have been stronger in keeping them at bay (giants, ogres, orcs maybe even humans and dwarves) and as time passed these races began to flush kreen out of various areas of land, pushing them to the fringes of the world or in vast uninhabited locales. thus, the Rebirth races ALSO kept kreen numbers down during this era of time (and thus kept them from elevating from simple tribal groups to a larger more advanced culture like an empire). When the Cleansing Wars were in full swing, some of the races that had heretofore kept the kreen down were suddenly wiped off the face of athas and this allowed them to expand and reproduce more. during the Green Age a vast majority of the Crimson Savannah was under water; but by the close of the Cleansing Wars it had pretty much receded, opening up a large area for the now more advanced and prolific kreen to settle. a few thousand years later and you have the now burgeoning Kreen Empire. it started small, but as more of the water receded and the other races vanished it just got bigger, completely unchecked by any other competitor for resources (at this point it was like China). thus by current times it has dominated a large portion of the crimson savannah and is poised to dominate MORE. i just don't see it having dominated ALL...yet...
again, everyone is more than welcome to do as they please with this area; this is all merely my own thought process and everyone has valid points and ideas. ;)
On the other hand, I think that the setting is much more interesting with large swaths of abandoned areas and remenants of other cultures instead of just "Kreen vs. the Tablelands." I find Brian's logic to be compelling when he gives reasons why the Kreen don't inhabit swaths of land any larger than they do now.
If the Kreen were such major players in the Green Age, why don't they have a more significant role then? It seems like the Cleansed Races play a more important role in the Green Age timeline, not to mention the surviving Rebirth Races.
itf
penn and i discussed this earlier this week. he's of the same mind as yourself. my arguement was that during the Blue Age the kreen were nothing more than beasts, no real culture or society or anything they were to all intents and purposes beastial and animalistic. at this time i'm sure the halflings kept their numbers from growing too large by hunting them and generally trimming their numbers. when the Green Age began and the oceans shrank up, the kreen experienced a sort of population decrease due to a change in their natural environment. when the rebirth began they too were beginning to adapt, but not at a cost in numbers (such is the way with evolution).
Well, I don't think they naturally adapted. I'm of the mind that the Zik'Chil are actually the decendants of some nature bender Rhulisti (the ones that were thrown out of Tyr'agi, and the Jagged Cliffs were raised against). I believe that the Rhulisti nature-benders used their knowledge to advance the Kreen into a warrior-species to fight in their upcoming wars. They modified themselves to be similar to their "children", and even adapted themselves to use certain things (like the genetic memories). The problem was that genetic memories aren't perfect, and they've sort of lost what their original purpose was -- other than the driving urge to expand, and to take the Tablelands. I don't think the Kreen naturally "evolved" into what they are now. If not at the end of the Blue Age, then at the very beginning of the Green Age, they had already been modified, enhanced, and started to spread.
my idea and preference is just fundamentally different. i'd rather the Kreen be a Blue Age race that was not just ANOTHER result of Rhulisti tampering (some would have them be responsible for everything including the creation of Athas itself if they could). i like the idea of them being a pure race outside of the Rebirth races. however, it's just my own personal taste. as far the Xixchil go, IMC they are kreen who use a Rhulisti artifact to shape their brethren. this artifact they found at the base of the Jagged Cliffs (as hinted in the adventure at the end of that supplement) and have been using it since then to alter their forms. thus the Xixchil are a relatively new addition to the growing Kreen Empire.
Brian, your idea of using the magic artifact found in Rajaat's inverted pyramid sounds good at first glance, but I think it cheapens things that all of the modern structure of imperial kreen society is due to a single magic ring, which could be lost anytime or used to accomplish radically different things. Xlor's idea involves long lost knowledge, errors made long ago, and involves several beings (Zik'Chil). I'll always make my choice of people over things.
think of the myriad of modern conspiracy theories about area 51 and roswell. that plastics, various metal alloys, microchips and processors, as well as some of our more modern theoretical physics and mathmatics are all from this crash out in the desert in the 1950's. all of that is only a span of 50 years or so and look at all the (supposed) invention that has come from it. that's not to say that any of that is true, i'm merely using it as an analogy.
despite what anyone believes the origins of the kreen are, the main point and thrust of my arguement was to define why i believe their empire is only as big as i've made it out to be. even if the kreen are blue age remnants of the nature-benders it still doesn't change the fact that the area of land now known as the crimson savannah was once underwater, which means they would have to have settled it after the water dried up and receded from the area (maybe a couple thousand years ago). it also doesn't change the fact that, despite having been influenced and altered by the nature-benders, they STILL had to compete with all of the other Rebirth races for resources and land (in other areas of Athas) before they even settled the Crimson Savannah. one race out of 20 or so is not going to dominate an entire area very easily, and it would take years for it to do so, through war and what-not. so again, case in point, the kreen empire is as big as it is because of the aforementioned factors. that, and the fact that over 4 1/2 grid regions is nothing to scoff at, especially since all races of the tablelands are relegated to an area about 1/3 of that size. in comparison and on a level of scale, the kreen empire as i have laid it out is HUGE and gives a lot of opportunity for expansion in different directions - north, south, west, or east into the tablelands. it also allows for alliances with other nations (like the Empire of Storms, Rhul-Thuan, or even Reggelid) beyond just the kreen in case they DO expand into the tablelands. if they are as vast and dominating as some would have it (in that they literally take up the entire western portion of the continent) then in all honesty the tablelands are doomed and nothing would be able to stand against the endless tide of shaped/altered kreen warriors and armies that would surge forth from the great rift. not only that, but then what's to encourage players and DMs from exploring western areas? no other societies beside the kreen leaves little room for adventure save for some sort of diplomatic mission to beg them not to eat everyone in the tablelands. eventually the SKs would probably fight them all off, but at what cost? millions would be slaughtered, cities would lay in ruin, and even more magic would eat away at the planet in the frenzy of battle and destruction. maybe that's how some people want to run it, and that's more than cool; but i tried to keep in mind various opinions and views and create something that had several options for anyone and everyone. thus, as it has been laid out people can expand the kreen regions even father if they'd like, or work with what is there, or reduce it further. it's easier to give a nice foundation to build off of, instead of locking things into something that cannot be reduced.
Another possible explanation for the empire being the size Brian has it is that the empire probably used to be several kreen nations, which may have been at war with each other for many centuries. With that going on, it's rather difficult for a nation or several nations to expand without jeopardizing the war.
Nice!
In addition, the transformed nature benders could have inserted themselves within a small nation, weak and too willing to grasp any advantage they can gain without asking too much questions about the nature of their benefactors. It might have taken all that time for the small nation to grow large enough to crush and absorb the others, which might account for centuries to have passed. Mitigated with pressure from the Rebirth races, and formidable natural barriers, then the empire's size could be explained.
originally i had envisioned some elf, dwarf, ogre, and orc populations in the area west of the now dried up sea, and the kreen inhabiting the both the northwestern lands as well as the eastern side of the sea near the jagged cliffs. with your ideas above it could easily be that the kreen on the eastern side could have experienced a lot of in-fighting amongst themselves whilst the northwestern kreen could have preyed upon the elven nation and warred with the other nations in their region. i see the elven cities falling to Albeorn, and the ogres and orces to the other champions. once those areas were clear and the sea receded northward a "land bridge" would have unified the northwestern and eastern kreen. they might have warred between themselves for the new lands, but eventually unified the two nations into one mighty nation. good thinkin' lads! me likey!
itf
IIRC, the Thri-Kreen were one of the original three races of Athas (insectiod). The other races were Nikaal (reptilian) and Halfling (humaniod).
itf
Correction -- they were one of the three pre-Rebirth races of Athas. The difference is that the Kreen could have been genetically altered, artificially "evolved" if you will, during the Blue Age, when the Rhulisti kind of knew how to do that.
having organized all the files on my home and work computers i've discovered previously unposted material. above are the planetary views of Athas during the Blue Age, Green Age and Current Age respectively. these were created using the large planetary map from earlier in this post, as well as from the Green Age and Current Age images of the Eastern Continent from the Distant Paths website.
as you can see, the Blue Age was dominated by water, the largest landmass being the area that will eventually become the Tyr region and Tablelands. landmasses are comprised primarily of island chains and archipelagoes with two or three larger islands. at this time the only races existant were the Rhulisti (who were the dominant species); the early, and primitive Thri'Kreen; and the Nikaal.
the second image shows the oceans have receded. this is the Green Age Athas. after the Rebirth there were many different races including all of the primary Blue Age races. eventually, they developed advanced civilizations that spanned the globe.
the final image is that of Athas in the current timeline. the once vast oceans are now nothing more than silt with only a handful of small seas surrounded by large mudflats. the heat at the equator has greatly reduced the amount of water in those areas, whilst near the poles the last remnants slowly shrink, absorbed by the choking loam of the silt oceans.
these images are just Athas at a glance throughout the ages. expanding outward from the Eastern Continent and looking at the world as a whole, what races would you all envision inhabiting the Central and Western continents? were they mix of the various races of the Green Age like the Tablelands? or were there many areas still left undiscovered? if so, what areas had been settled and by what Green Age races? furthermore, were there any locations that were "last bastions" of some of the Blue Age races? like Rhulisti at the poles or a Nikaal homeland on the western continent?
thoughts? ideas? input?
IIRC, the Thri-Kreen were one of the original three races of Athas (insectiod). The other races were Nikaal (reptilian) and Halfling (humaniod).
Ahh, someone read Steve Bell's old Distant Paths website!! You are not alone in the universe itf! Those were very good ideas he layed down.
Brian,
The new maps are FANTASTIC! The first thing that went through my mind was "hmmm... how do we ruin these new territories?"
One thing that is immediately apparent when I look at the new maps is that the other continents don't have the same "features" as "Tyragi" (the Tablelands continent). No deadlands. No magma pools.
Perhaps we can brainstorm of some new ways to ravage these new territories. In particular, I am looking at that HUGE body of water in the middle of the continent. That definitely needs to be ruined. (Remember, the Soceror Kings inhabit the Tablelands because it is the most livable place left on the planet!)
Based on the structure of that continent, it looks like the watershed from the mountains surrounding the continent all drains into the central "lake." In the Blue Age, this "lake" was attached to the ocean, so natural salts and other pollutants couldn't accumulate. However, with no attachment to the ocean, this body of water would accumulate pollutants and salts like the Dead Sea or the Great Salt lake. We could have a body of water that is completely unusable and uninhabitable by any life forms.
I think that is a good start, but maybe we can take this idea one step further... Instead of simply "salts" building up, perhaps some other foul or nasty trace elements could accumulate. Arsenic? Selenium? (A heavy metal). How about this: maybe some of the mountains ringing the continent are actually volcanoes. Combining water with the natural gases emitted from volcanoes, and you get sulfuric acid. This acid run-off could accumulate in our "lake," building up to horrifically toxic levels.
You know, when you drop water into acid it spits and pops like water into a deep fryer. Imagine what rainfall would do to life around the lake...
Now put some important islands in the middle of this lake and you can have a death-defying fight over an ocean of ACID! But let's take this a step further. Maybe the mountains were strip-mined for iron ore in order to fuel the Cleansing Wars. In addition to the raw damage that strip mining would produce, it could expose veins of limestone which would only increase the acidity of our "lake." Add to the mix vast smelting plants which poured toxins into the waters as well, and you have the makings of a truly foul body of water! (Not to mention a lot of blighted land.)
Sorry to rant on and on about nasty water and enviromental destruction -I grew up near Cleveland, next to the river that caught on fire!
itf
itf
SKs have settled the Tyr Region (actually more than that: As far south as Celik, East as Ur Draxa, North as Eldaarich, and west as Tyr) because that was the center of civilization during the Cleansing Wars, the period of time during which most of the SKs were born. The cities the SKs coveted, and the cultures and people they liked where in that region, not elsewhere. The whole area had been the center of civilization throughout the previous two ages, so it was a natural choice for the SKs to settle in. Proximity to Rajaat's prison in Ur-Draxa (vs. as living on another continent, for example) means for Borys a guaranteed levy from each SK close by, which is very important if all the SKs and Borys himself want to continue on living. As such I imagine that, on a common accord on that fateful day they defeated their master, the SKs chose cities near Ur-Draxa* to rule.
* Albeit it fits the current truth, Ur-Draxa wasn't always the reference point. Ur-Draxa was built long after the Dragon was created, using the spoils of fallen Yaramuke. Only after the city's construction did Borys move the stone cyst to Ur-Draxa, so I can only assume that the previous location of the cyst was somewhere as near the Tyr Region as the Valley of Dust and Fire was.
Since the Tyr Region is defined as the area covered by the map in the first Boxed Set, then a larger area that goes as far south as the City of 1,000 Dead, East as Ur Draxa, North as Eldaarich, and west as Tyr would require a new name if we are not to constantly have to define the area we're talking about.
The simplest of those names might be the Known World, the other is a term found in RaFoaDK, the Heartlands*.
*Its definition is not clear but it seems to encompass areas part of the Tyr Region and others outside of it. Also it seems to have been a term in use during the Cleansing Wars, the time during which Hamanu lived.
when hydrochloric acid breaks down, it produces a gas called phosgene.
WOW!!! It's a very fresh idea! You'll get BILLIONS if you sell it to chemical corporations!
Phosgene was used as a chemical weapon in WWII..
Its first use was in May of 1915, when the WW was not so "II", as it seems.
Sorry for offtopic!
While I understand that the Tyr region was a center for civilization during the Green Age, Borys could have set up shop anywhere, couldn't he? (Or did he need to be near the Pristine Tower?) Given that he would need a regular slave levy of 1000 from each City-state, it makes the most sense for the Soceror Kings / Queens to put their City states on the most inhabitiable / sustainable continent.
That was one of the beefs I had with the original conceptualization of our "larger universe." It makes no sense for other areas outside of Tyr to be verdant and flourishing while the Tablelands struggles and withers. After all, if Borys really is "King of the World" why not extract his levy (as well as resources and tribute) from other prospering civilizations?
It seems that once the Cleansing Wars were finished, the SK's had the run of the planet. They had conquered all of Athas. There was no civilization left to put forth any resistance. So why wouldn't Borys settle down in the most liveable place?
On the other hand, yeah, there could be other "nice" or green areas left on Athas, but personally, I am a fan of the dystopic elements of Athas. I like the idea of characters leaving the harsh confines of the Tablelands, searching for greener pastures, only to find that the Tablelands are paradise compared to the rest of the planet!
Furthermore, I also like the idea that the Cleansing Wars and the Preserver Jihad irrevocably fu-er... I mean-messed things up for Athas. The power of the Dark Sun's dystopic setting loses it's impact when there are other locations that have been spared the ravages of the various wars.
Just my preference. What do you envision?
Monastyrski,
You got me on the whole WWI, thing. I noticed my error right away, but it looks like you got to me before I could correct it.
itf
They DO exist in real life though, one is as strong as battery acid IIRC.
Death Valley had carbon dioxide "sinks" which would choke folk.
The heat in Athas could end up with rocks giving off arsenic gasses and mercury vapour (Hellishly toxic stuff that). In such temperatures, 40C+, cinnabar ore would leak pure mercury in prodigious quantities.
"The kreen cities and villages closest to the Jagged Cliffs (which appear on the maps included with this boxed set) lie on the frontier of the empire."(once agian, as stated in the Wanderer's Chronicle -p. 100)
and
"The kreen cities and villages closest to the Jagged Cliffs (which appear on the maps included with this boxed set) are fully one half of the empire."
have one and the same meaning.
Point is, that using in-print source material, the size of the empire as depicted in your maps is just way too small. Now don't get me wrong here. I totally appreciate what you're trying to do, and up till now have found little to complain about (and really a great deal to be excited about
). I wouldn't even care that much otherwise, but I feel that you have a talent that can lend much to the world we all draw so much enjoyment from. I think we owe it to ourselves, though, to stay true to the setting material. I think everyone here can agree that the last thing we need is yet more inconsistencies.squidfur - no harshness taken, but i stick to my guns. just as you are convinced the area dominated by the kreen as i have presented it is "too small". i am convinced that several hundred thousand square miles is quite large. the cities at the base of the Jagged Cliffs in the boxed set span an area about 150-200 miles of the overall map itself if that. the area next to it is dominated by several kreen cities that cover an area almost 350 miles by 350 miles. basically, the cities on the boxed maps are almost 500 miles from the capitol. 500 miles on foot is a very long way to walk, or even ride for that matter.
again, you are more than welcome to do with the maps as you will, and expand the empire to fill the areas as you see fit. however, an empire spanning an area almost 4 times the size of the tablelands is ample enough and i prefer to fill in an area that allows for further, future expansion by DMs and players, rather than an area that ends up being so big it is difficult to reduce.
that being said, i feel the scale stays reasonably true to what has been published which in the end was vague, inexact and open to interpretation. a distance of 300 miles (say from LA to San Fransisco) to someone in RL who can hop in a car and drive it in 5 hours, or fly in a plane and get there in less than 2 hours seems small, but try walking it or just riding a horse. suddenly 300 miles is quite a journey, and that's just with regular california weather, flora and fauna...try that same 300 mile trek across a dangerous, sun-scorched savannah, crawling with giant insects, dangerous plants, quicksand, and who-knows-what-else...
lastly, i'd get really bored filling in map after map after map of kreen cities and kreen infested lands. i tried to break it up a bit and keep a little bit of randomness and interesting bits for fun and possible inspiration.
these images are just Athas at a glance throughout the ages. expanding outward from the Eastern Continent and looking at the world as a whole, what races would you all envision inhabiting the Central and Western continents? were they mix of the various races of the Green Age like the Tablelands? or were there many areas still left undiscovered? if so, what areas had been settled and by what Green Age races? furthermore, were there any locations that were "last bastions" of some of the Blue Age races? like Rhulisti at the poles or a Nikaal homeland on the western continent?
thoughts? ideas? input?
i have put on the board some random ideas on the eastern continent, the one with the large circular sea at his center, i call it UR, hope it helps
please note that i've taken in account why the SK did not chose this relatively greener zone as their private havens since there was a cadre of powerful creatures (some of a magnetude of power matching even Boris)working actively to hide it
I would be very grateful if Brian would put them up, if possible. Thank you!Perhaps we can brainstorm of some new ways to ravage these new territories. In particular, I am looking at that HUGE body of water in the middle of the continent. That definitely needs to be ruined. (Remember, the Soceror Kings inhabit the Tablelands because it is the most livable place left on the planet!)
Actually, IIRC, I believe the SKs lived in the Tablelands to act as a defense against Rajaat. Proximity does mean a quicker response time no matter how powerful you are.
I can see Athas having other green areas. One just has to remember several things:1. The Crimson Savannah: Just because it's green on the map doesn't mean it has to be green "in real life." The map-green is for our reference. :D
2. Just because Athas is dying, it isn't dead yet. I see Athas as like a hospital patient that is in critical condition, it could go either way. As some areas slowly die, other areas are struggling to rebuild.
3. The effects of defiling is not forever . Yes, it may take centuries for nature to reclaim it, but nature does reclaim the zone. The defiling of the Cleansing Wars was just so expansive that nature had to change how it reclaimed it.
4. :raincloud The Cerulean Storm: Think about the all that rain that's being generated from a continuous source (I'm not going say the water is coming from the plane of Water or Rain :P ). Sure, it could take untold millennia, but the water is going somewhere. Eventually, from the bottom up, the Sunrise Sea could return.
Just my two cents.
That was one of the beefs I had with the original conceptualization of our "larger universe." It makes no sense for other areas outside of Tyr to be verdant and flourishing while the Tablelands struggles and withers. After all, if Borys really is "King of the World" why not extract his levy (as well as resources and tribute) from other prospering civilizations?
Who's to say that he didn't?
:evillaugh On the other hand, yeah, there could be other "nice" or green areas left on Athas, but personally, I am a fan of the dystopic elements of Athas. I like the idea of characters leaving the harsh confines of the Tablelands, searching for greener pastures, only to find that the Tablelands are paradise compared to the rest of the planet!
What's wrong with a dystopic paradise? :D I'm thinking of an episode from Star Trek:TOS that involved a paradise planet where all the plants were either acidic or poisonous.
I really need one for my campaign...
Let me know if you are not up for it....
Could you point to me the reference where it is stated that the nikaal is a pre-Rebirth race? I know the (smaller and winged then) kreen and the rhulisti were there, but can't remember about the nikaal. The nikaal was used as a bloodline to create a list of mutations IIRC, but is there anything official that say they were there during the Blue Age? Thanks for any info about that.
Nope, there was nothing official about the Nikaal. I took the idea from 'Terror Beyond Tyr' as a means of giving the far eastern areas of Athas some depth. They seemed to fit the bill, highly adapted, mysterious and reptilian. This went down well at the time and a few of us worked out some history.
IMC the ones seen in the Tablelands are wanderers, having lost or forgotten their past. The ancient might of the Nikaal is long shattered, their remains and ruined cities dot the eastern continent of Athas (Brian's F1 and G1 columns). They were lifeshapers, but different from the Halflings and Kreen, they shaped other species and were cruel, tyrannical beings who unleashed their own destruction…
Nope, there was nothing official about the Nikaal. I took the idea from 'Terror Beyond Tyr' as a means of giving the far eastern areas of Athas some depth. They seemed to fit the bill, highly adapted, mysterious and reptilian. This went down well at the time and a few of us worked out some history.
IMC the ones seen in the Tablelands are wanderers, having lost or forgotten their past. The ancient might of the Nikaal is long shattered, their remains and ruined cities dot the eastern continent of Athas (Brian's F1 and G1 columns). They were lifeshapers, but different from the Halflings and Kreen, they shaped other species and were cruel, tyrannical beings who unleashed their own destruction…
It's a cool idea. We gave a nod to this in the nikaal writeup in Terrors of Athas (one of those "there are some who say that..." type statements). I kinda like the idea that there was a Blue Age reptilian progenitor race wandering about out there, miles from anywhere, like some kind of primordial amphibious toad-species. (Yeah, I know that toads aren't reptiles, but it's the image I liked...)
It's a cool idea. We gave a nod to this in the nikaal writeup in Terrors of Athas (one of those "there are some who say that..." type statements). I kinda like the idea that there was a Blue Age reptilian progenitor race wandering about out there, miles from anywhere, like some kind of primordial amphibious toad-species. (Yeah, I know that toads aren't reptiles, but it's the image I liked...)
Thanks
Just looked up the write-up. This version of the history shouldn't really affect work in the areas of the map as the big crater like splodges were meant to be impact craters/volcanic terrain as several meteors killed off the heartlands of the Nikaal.
It's also really ancient history, most of their surviving ruins would look like weathered terrain (possibly containing lifeshaped guardians of the Nikaals particular brand...)
Hmm, amphibious, keeping away from the Halflings during the Blue Age, experimenting on aquatic species/captured Halflings, then a rebirth onto land...
as one travels directly west across the vast Silt Ocean, eventually land appears through the thick, choking haze. this is the Gateway. a region that once was a vast empire during the Green Age. the Basalt Archipelago is relatively new, having once been an underwater volcano that now lies exposed above the silt. futher towards the shore, a traveler will past The Stone Guardians, a row of 200 ft. tall statues facing to the east. once there were seven (each representative of the races of the Central Continent); but now only two remain. the rest were shattered to pieces during the Cleansing Wars by the Champions, their body parts sticking partially out of the silt around the isle on which they stand.
past the Guardians is the lonely ruins of the once great seaside empire. several coastal cities are now nothing but rubble and crumbling stone. the decayed and petrified remains of large sail-barges and other sea-faring vessels stick out of the loam. between the large island and the mainland is a massive bridge some 35 miles across. though some of it has collapsed into the silt, a large portion still remains intact. the land-based part of this long-forgotten empire is crossed by ancient paved roads leading deeper into the continent and to other seaside towns and cities (also now in ruin). was this vast nation once the capitol of a cleansed race? what vast treasures lie buried in the miles of ruins? the city to the north near the mountains was the greatest exporter of metals on Athas, are there still large, untouched veins of preciouse ores deep beneath the mountains? one things is for certain, this place has long been left untouched, and there is untold stores of ancient treasure and technology. the ruins that dot this region and some of the vessels in the silt still have obsidian orbs in them...
It's a cool idea. We gave a nod to this in the nikaal writeup in Terrors of Athas (one of those "there are some who say that..." type statements). I kinda like the idea that there was a Blue Age reptilian progenitor race wandering about out there, miles from anywhere, like some kind of primordial amphibious toad-species. (Yeah, I know that toads aren't reptiles, but it's the image I liked...)
Doh! Totally forgot about this and told him otherwise.
Good stuff alll around. I'm glad we did it too.
Brian, please, where exactly does this last map fit? I can't place it anywhere at the map... what grid is this?
I was just going to ask the same thing
as one travels directly west across the vast Silt Ocean,
Oh noes. Tis another continent! No wonder I couldn't place it.
Me wanna old continent finished! Oh, and as always, bravo on the excellent work Brian! just wanted to throw that one out there. i did this one a month or so back, got a bit bored with just the one continent and decided to skip to the far-off uncharted regions. it doesn't even have a grid coordinate yet!! :P
anyway, at the time i had seen some movie with these giant buddha statues in one scene...like 50-100 ft. tall...and i thought about what one poster had said previously on this thread about really titanic and out-of-this-world sorts of things...massive stone spires, mile-long bridges, all that jazz...and i thought it would be cool to have this long-lost capitol right on the eastern coast of this large continent. a city that was once the world's center for commerce and such. now it's nothing more than a silent ruin. i envisioned these massive stone statues hundreds of feet tall welcoming visitors to this cosmopolitan port. some grand thing that visitors of the ancient age would have been greeted by...like the statue of liberty and whatnot...then i thought of the bridge...and it sort of went from there.
so what do you all think? what was the population of this city composed of? elves? gnomes? lizardmen? orcs? was it a huge melting pot with districts and areas for races of all kinds? was it the last bastion of hope for the demi-human races targeted for cleansing? the "last stand"? in my minds eye i saw the massive naval fleets of the champions closing in on this mighty and proud city...unleashing magic of epic power and destruction...the statues falling...buildings laid to waste...the streets awash with the blood of dozens of races...
mmm... :P
Statues came much later and are hired work, cratsmen were mainly dwarves and gnomes, and were erected as one major treaty was signed - "Pax Nova" - ending the so called "rush war" that broke out as the other races raced after elves and, naturally, wanted to settle the lands closest to the sea. Which were already occupied by the elven pioneers, of course.
oh! and just for the record, the map above is located on the planetary map 14 grid regions across and 6 grid regions down...east of the mountain range skirting the large inland sea of the central continent...
it was the first time i had ever been able to step foot in Kalak's royal library. after his death Tithian had spent days rummaging through the heretofore off limits area of the vast library. when he was done the other templars followed suit. now the place lay in total disarray. moldering tomes, obscure texts, and crumpled scrolls were strewn hap-hazardly about. i set myself to cleaning it all up. organizing the remaining books and placing them back on the shelves. i picked up a particularly heavy tome, written in an archaic elvish; and as i did so a folded piece of paper fell to the floor. i picked it up and unfolded it and was slack-jaw with astonishment. it seemed it was some sort of ancient map detailing the tablelands, or i only assume it was the tablelands for Tyr was there as well as Urik and other city-states; but there were many places that i did not recognize. most amazingly, this map showed that most of the Tyr region was once WATER!! there were forests everywhere and lush grasslands. i couldn't believe my eyes! i stuffed the paper into my waist pouch and finished cleaning. i only showed it to a handful of people, but after a while a stranger approached me and offered to purchase it from me for 100 silver! being just a caretaker, i jumped at the offer and thus was parted from the map...
Tablelands of the Green Age...
i spent some time trying to figure out some historical aspects of the map. some things i could remember, others i could not and thus a bit more research must be done. i know that Kalidnay was once named something else, as were a few other cities taken by the Champions after the Wars. which ones i wasn't certain. also, i don't know what some of the various ruins were and whether or not they were ruins during the Green Age or were actually inhabited structures...the Mud Palace is one of them. there were a few more. also, i based the cities and such off of those from Dark Sun Rising's version of the Tablelands and there were some locations i did not recognize. Dasaraches? Ablath? Tarelon? help me fill in the gaps...if only just for fun!
Brian, your maps are beautiful, and I'd really like to print them out on some high-quality laser printer to be framed and hang on the wall. Please, could you put all your recent maps available at that cartographer's guild page in high resolution psds with the rest of them? All those maps meaning the kreen ones and these latest aditions?
I'm pretty certain he's sent them to Greyorm. It's only a matter of time before they get put up on the site.
It was hard. Took me 2 days to hand-draw the gaps between the map pieces. The map I got was 3x3 meters, with a lot of missing pieces, of course. Took an entire wall.
But neverming the gaps, they'll come in due time, I rest me faith in Brian, but the problem is that i definetly couldn't fit in the original extended edition map anyhow. I mesured and I cropped, I looked at the scale on both Brian's maps and the scale of those original ones and found them to be the same - if one Brian's map is printed on A3 then the extended one is A2 and the scale is identical.
However, no matter how hard I try those kreen roads just can't fit!
I have now a request, if at all possible. Please Brian if you could possibly draw/check the grids E3 or D4 and see if it fits or not? Even without those maps I just can't get it together.
Tablelands of the Green Age...
Is it just me, or is the image like.... broken or something?
Edit: it was just me. I just needed to clear my cache.
Dasaraches and Akarakle (the ruins mistakenly labled as Hakaar - Hakaar is the name of the preserver/ghost who resides there) were Green Age fortresses of the Wind Mages. Othand was likely a third location they held power in.
i'll take note and make changes.
sweet! were the wind mages preservers who were wiped out in the preserver jihad? akarakle sounds like a aarakocran name :P were some of them preservers? wind mages?
i'll take note and make changes.
Yes exactly. I don't know about the aarakocran connection (sounds like a good name for a moovie or something :thinks
, but hell! Why not?Othand's history is mostly nil...Penn and I are trying to change that though, and it's fall would most likely be towards the end of the Green Age - most certainly in the latter half, at least.
And of Dasaraches's fall, I can't remember for certain, and I'm feelin' so lazy right now that I don't feel like looking...but IIRC, I'm thinkin' it fell towards the end of the Green Age as well. It was, for certain, after the fall of Akarakle, though.
Oh, speaking of which, I have a major problem. I printed all the maps out already and said to meself, "hey, this is a 15-piece puzzle, how hard canm it get to tape them all togeher?"
It was hard. Took me 2 days to hand-draw the gaps between the map pieces. The map I got was 3x3 meters, with a lot of missing pieces, of course. Took an entire wall.
But neverming the gaps, they'll come in due time, I rest me faith in Brian, but the problem is that i definetly couldn't fit in the original extended edition map anyhow. I mesured and I cropped, I looked at the scale on both Brian's maps and the scale of those original ones and found them to be the same - if one Brian's map is printed on A3 then the extended one is A2 and the scale is identical.
However, no matter how hard I try those kreen roads just can't fit!
I have now a request, if at all possible. Please Brian if you could possibly draw/check the grids E3 or D4 and see if it fits or not? Even without those maps I just can't get it together.
hmmm...i tried to keep the dimensions right, but in all honestly, i've never printed the maps!! i think that maybe the indescrepancy comes from the gap formed by the grid lines on the continental view. on that scale the lines are only a few pixels wide...but blown up bigger it may lead to an inch now that i think on it. some roads may not match because of that, and i know that i added a few roads to fill in more villages later in other maps. i'll have to check it out. overall i used the map size on Dark Sun Rising as a basis for my maps and their size. printable versions should be about 33.33 inches by 22.66 inches (not sure how that converts metrically - i'm too lazy to do the math)...i'd imagine it took you a while to put them all together!! you must have a really big wall!! :P
Oh, speaking of which, I have a major problem. I printed all the maps out already and said to meself, "hey, this is a 15-piece puzzle, how hard canm it get to tape them all togeher?"
It was hard. Took me 2 days to hand-draw the gaps between the map pieces. The map I got was 3x3 meters, with a lot of missing pieces, of course. Took an entire wall.
But neverming the gaps, they'll come in due time, I rest me faith in Brian, but the problem is that i definetly couldn't fit in the original extended edition map anyhow. I mesured and I cropped, I looked at the scale on both Brian's maps and the scale of those original ones and found them to be the same - if one Brian's map is printed on A3 then the extended one is A2 and the scale is identical.
However, no matter how hard I try those kreen roads just can't fit!
I have now a request, if at all possible. Please Brian if you could possibly draw/check the grids E3 or D4 and see if it fits or not? Even without those maps I just can't get it together.
hmmm...i tried to keep the dimensions right, but in all honestly, i've never printed the maps!! i think that maybe the indescrepancy comes from the gap formed by the grid lines on the continental view. on that scale the lines are only a few pixels wide...but blown up bigger it may lead to an inch now that i think on it. some roads may not match because of that, and i know that i added a few roads to fill in more villages later in other maps. i'll have to check it out. overall i used the map size on Dark Sun Rising as a basis for my maps and their size. printable versions should be about 33.33 inches by 22.66 inches (not sure how that converts metrically - i'm too lazy to do the math)...i'd imagine it took you a while to put them all together!! you must have a really big wall!! :P
hmmm...i tried to keep the dimensions right, but in all honestly, i've never printed the maps!! i think that maybe the indescrepancy comes from the gap formed by the grid lines on the continental view. on that scale the lines are only a few pixels wide...but blown up bigger it may lead to an inch now that i think on it. some roads may not match because of that, and i know that i added a few roads to fill in more villages later in other maps. i'll have to check it out. overall i used the map size on Dark Sun Rising as a basis for my maps and their size. printable versions should be about 33.33 inches by 22.66 inches (not sure how that converts metrically - i'm too lazy to do the math)...i'd imagine it took you a while to put them all together!! you must have a really big wall!! :P
That is exactly what I thought happened. The gaps are from .. uhh lemme convert this for you .. from 0.3 to a max of 4 inches on some maps when printed on A3 papers each. 3x3 meters is roughly 9.5x9.5 feet.
Anyway, if you can, do this - in photoshop open all the maps you have aroung the original one from the expanded setting and see how they relate to eachother. Keep to what I told you - one your map is exactly half of the original map. you'll see that if you put the original one to your maps there are large inconsistancies in color and landmarks.
Anyway, this would help enormeously: if you can create a few minimaps that would cover borders of the original map and also cover the borders of your kreen empire maps thus bridging the crucial gap between them it would basically bring it all into perspective. Once doing that, you might find that the original scale and your scale don't exactly add up, as I suspect. In that case I guess it'd be easy to simply calculate the extent of the mismatch. In all honesty, I assume it's as large as 2:1 in favour of your maps, ie, one mile on the original map is actually 2 miles on your ones.
Well, in any case, please do this since I can't get a good photo of the wall with all the things out of balance. And some photo it would be! :D
Whatever the case, this should be addresses.
Damn these boards seem so luggish it's easier to post another post than edit the previous one.
Damn these boards seem so luggish it's easier to post another post than edit the previous one.
Ok, good. It's not just me that's experiencing this, heh.
Brian has also created a world overview map that shows other continents and such, AND it has three different layers: one each for the Blue, Green and Brown age! So you can see how the planet and coastlines have changed over the ages. That is now available as well.
Also, note that the previous bandwith restrictions on downloads have been lifted because my host just octupuled my monthly bandwith for free.
No .jpgs of the world map sections yet. Just have not had the time to convert each PSD, upload it, and write the code. If someone wanted to make some decent sized JPGs (800x600 or in that area) of each of the current PSD files and send them to me, I sure wouldn't object, and it would speed things up quite a bit.
so taking a look at the scales of my maps and such i've found where the indescrepancies come from. i do realize that the scale of the key elements on earlier maps - mountains, forests, ect. - are larger than on the later maps. i hope to update this eventually. as for the SIZE issue...well, after some various calculations i have found that my maps, though the same pixel size as the Dark Sun Rising maps (2400 x 1632) are actually different sizes in terms of pixels-per-inch. the Dark Sun Rising maps in print are about 24.25" x 16.25" at 96ppi, whereas my maps are 33.33" x 22.66" at 72ppi! i'm not exactly sure how this lead to the offset between the two, but it seems to be the only difference as far as image settings are concerned. the Dark Sun Rising maps also have a border which reduces them about .25" on a side to exactly 24" x 16" at 96ppi. what this comes out to is .25% difference in scale between my maps and the already published maps in that the Dark Sun Rising maps are .75% smaller than my maps. this basically means that 50 miles on my maps actually equates to about 62.5 miles OR that 50 miles on the Dark Sun Rising maps equals about 37.5 miles.
i'm going to have to put a little thought into how i'm going to rectify it all. i could change the scale on all the maps fairly easily by reducing the print size and just re-merging the Distance Scale layer over the re-sized map, it'll take a bit to fix no matter how i do it really and i can't be certain that it would match the printed boxed set maps exactly either. so i'll have to play around with that a bit.
as for the borders, well, i think i'll just go in and fit the edges of each map together as best i can to remove the indescrepancy. that would be a lot faster than going through every map and accounting for what pixels were lost and figuring an inch or so more of area.
As for the borders, it would be very helpful if you expanded the maps you already made so that the borders would overlap by half an inch or so. That would make it much easier to paste them together when printed out and would be easier to see where things left off when comparing one map to another.
However, I must plead again to make the most important maps yet - those bridging the original maps and your new ones, as they would dictate the scale at which the old one should be printed to fit in nicely with the others.
Thanx a lot for the effort Brian!
this one's for you Master Ivan...just some fun...
OK, I never thought I'd say this....Brian...I love you!
You are amazing!
Thank you soooooo much!
If you ever need any help with anything I'll be there!
;) :D Thanx man!
this one's for you Master Ivan...just some fun...
i spent some time trying to figure out some historical aspects of the map. some things i could remember, others i could not and thus a bit more research must be done. i know that Kalidnay was once named something else, as were a few other cities taken by the Champions after the Wars. which ones i wasn't certain. also, i don't know what some of the various ruins were and whether or not they were ruins during the Green Age or were actually inhabited structures...the Mud Palace is one of them. there were a few more. also, i based the cities and such off of those from Dark Sun Rising's version of the Tablelands and there were some locations i did not recognize. Dasaraches? Ablath? Tarelon? help me fill in the gaps...if only just for fun!
Well there's one thing, you forgot Kemalok and Ebe could fit in there somewhere, maybe on an island somewhere...because it got swallowed by silt...
Speakin' of which, I'm thinkin' we need to 1) find out what happened to him, and 2) work on makin' that stuff official (well, most of it anyhoo).
To take an idea from ol' Aphgan, Ebe would have been on a now sunken island in the Silt Archipelago.
Speakin' of which, I'm thinkin' we need to 1) find out what happened to him, and 2) work on makin' that stuff official (well, most of it anyhoo).
Agreed. His stuff needs to be used as a basis for a new athas.org supplement detailing the Silt Archipelago.
I'm having problems making the picture larger without blurring it, photoshop doesn't handle it very well...what program do you use?
And yeah, I agree with squidfur- & pennarin, there should be at least some official stuff about the lost cities of the green age...
What's wrong with a dystopic paradise? :D I'm thinking of an episode from Star Trek:TOS that involved a paradise planet where all the plants were either acidic or poisonous.
Tykus,
I believe that DS has a dystopic paradise already: Saragar. Don't you remember Saragar: "Where Unhappiness Is Against the Law."
What kind of dystopic paradises can you imagine outside of Saragar?
I am currently molding Eldaarich into a dystopia (post-9/11 US; McCarthy-era US; North Corea; 1984 -inspired) but I'd hardly call it a "dystopic paradise" (although its citizens would -and if you don't agree, you'll vanish in the night!) I really can't think of another "dystopic paradise" that falls out of the Saragar model. Can you expand on that a little?
itf
If you read VaDaF - as far as I recall - it says it once was an island when there was water. Now its lower than the surrounding Silt Sea, but if you recall the sea expanded when it turned to sea, so an island can become a depression.
I suggest adding an island matching the overall land features in the VaDaF - without the magma rifts in the earth.
Tykus,
I believe that DS has a dystopic paradise already: Saragar. Don't you remember Saragar: "Where Unhappiness Is Against the Law."
What kind of dystopic paradises can you imagine outside of Saragar?
I am currently molding Eldaarich into a dystopia (post-9/11 US; McCarthy-era US; North Corea; 1984 -inspired) but I'd hardly call it a "dystopic paradise" (although its citizens would -and if you don't agree, you'll vanish in the night!) I really can't think of another "dystopic paradise" that falls out of the Saragar model. Can you expand on that a little?
itf
I didn't forget Saragar. The thing is, just as there are many types of paradises (I imagine my version of paradise differs than yours, philosophically), there can be as many dystopic ones as well. I had an idea for an Egyptian-themed region ruled by sun-lords (epic sun elementals) complete with pyramids (even though, technically, the pyramids pre-date Egypt, but that's another story I'm NOT getting into an argument about). I also conceived of another region that was ruled by a meorg (the law-enforcer dudes) that had wrested control from the local kingdoms by using other undead like itself and was being watched by the DP of RL (Kalidnay's great, but there's only so much you can do with it). Like I said in an earlier post: Just because it's green on the map, doesn't mean that the plant life is actually green. Remember, the sun of Athas is red, the plant life colors could've changed to adapt to it.
Don't stop now, Brian! You still got more than half the planet to go!i've got a lot of projects going on right now both professionally and personally so as soon as i've got those locked down i'll be making more delicious maps for your viewing/gaming pleasure!
until then i encourage everyone who has made maps or has areas that they've fleshed out to contribute. anyway, just a quick little update!
For those nice paradises out there here's some ideas.
An epic spell that slowly leeches intelligence. Animal intelligence is unaffected by anything with an Int of 4+ has to make a saving throw daily or permenantly lose 1 Int. This allows all the bugs and savagery to continue on.
A curse that makes all animals (or life) infertile or makes all children stillborn. No reproduction can quickly kill off all animals, and with no insects the vegitatian will soon follow unless it quickly adapted to no pollination and such.
For our big body of water, the brown tide still exsists. It lies dormant at the bottom of the lake. The brown tide eats life, as long as water had life (even microbes) it lived and ate. When the waters receeded and it was trapped in the lake it went dorment. Use the water at your own risk, you could very well wake it up, even if it's just long enough to eat you.
Why didn't the champs leave the Tyr region? The seat of thier power, the prision they couldn't afford to leave unguarded? Perhaps Rajaat linked them to the Pristine Tower. If they are not within a few hundred to a thousand miles of it they begin to lose thier immortality or thier power? Maybe Rajaat built in a compulsion to the change, making them not want to leave the area and they don't even know it. Or maybe they don't think they can beat the entire Kreen Empire? And didn't Rajaat tell them to stay east of the mountains anyway so they would never discover the Rhul-thaun?
Why havn't the Kreen expanded even further west? I thought I saw some more mountains that way, maybe not. Feral halflings could be over there too. Halflings and Kreen (and Nikaal?) can be pretty well spread and holding them back. Or maybe something even worse, interplanar beings, genasi they can't eat?
Frontiers are defined as an international border, an area along an international border, a region just beyond or at the edge of a settled area. Even if the mapped area of the Kreen Empire is only half of it, it can still fall within those definitions.
I'm also a fan of the old, it's still alive because there's never been anyone there to destroy it. Even with psionics, a few of those squid/shark things or something even worse could hamper the exploration of the world in the Green age. Monsters aren't just things on maps, they are real on Athas.
Just my take on it.
I do think that there may be a little too much water though, but I could see more fertile area's like the Kreen empire contains, but these areas should be remote, isolated be dangerous terrain and the like. The Kreen are seperated by the JC, Saragar by the burning plains, magma, and the like.
Kudo's on the great work Brian! It's very inspiring.
Great ideals. I especially like the concept of "here there be dragons." You're right: even though the monsters on the edge of medieval maps were not real, the ones in Athas can be. How about a rampaging nightmare beast in a verdant region which ensures no civilization takes root there?
Speaking of "taking root," I just saw a Dungeon Magazine adventure, "Root of Evil," about an evil demon possessed tree that sucks the life outta everything in the region. (I also remember a Dragon Ball Z episode with a similar premise...) Anyways, maybe something similar could exist on Athas -perhaps as a defense mechanism to the sentient life which wreaked so much havok on plant life. Perhaps it would be a psionic tree, which feeds of the intelligence of creatures in the area (a variation on your idea of intelligence drain).
The "reproductive attack" is a good ideal too. There could be many natural causes to this as well and animals seem like they would be much more vunerable to this than plants.
How about radiation? Perhaps Athas has pockets of naturally (or unnaturally) occurring radition which is particularly harmful to animal life (but plant life was able to adapt.) Maybe some greedy / desparate kingdom delved too far into the earth and unwittingly extracted massive amounts of radiactive waste while attempting to find iron.
Continuing with the idea of mining and pollution... perhaps a form of bacteria was life-shaped to extract iron ore from rock. Unknown to the life-shapers, however, this bacteria also produced some kind of foul by-product, despoiling the land.
I have another insight as to why the Champions remained in the Tyr region, they had settled there before they imprisoned Rajaat because it was the most fertile region. Some may have been there a century or more before the conversion of Borys and his century of destruction. With Borys mad, they had to remain to keep the prison as secure as they could. When Borys came to, the Champions had been in the Tyr region for well over a century, well established in their seat of power. Old habits, security in a blasted world, and the proximaty of their most feared prisoner kept them there.
This is one of the more persuasive reasons I have read about why the SK's stayed in the Tyr region.
I would like to situate some "lost kingdoms" in various locations on Brians maps. However, I am not sure if these areas would be too popular
If people are interested, let me know. I am trying to develop one kingdom for an upcoming campaign I am working on...itf
Has any one included a region ruled by Yuanti? They are a listed species in the original set, though don't recall any appearance of them. I think they'd be a great race ruling a dystopia in a verdant region, maybe near the North Sea. I'd use the Psionic variant of them, maybe with a life-bender spin on them.
A full-blown yuan-ti supplement for Dark Sun has been the best kept athas.org secret after the dragon article in Dragon Magazine. It will be lovingly done, with plenty of race variants, substitution levels, racial feats, spells and powers, PrCs, and items. Detailed history, societal workings, sample settlements and groups. And lavishingly illustrated through the works of yours trully. Watch out for it, release date unknow, may take a while.
A full-blown yuan-ti supplement for Dark Sun has been the best kept athas.org secret after the dragon article in Dragon Magazine. It will be lovingly done, with plenty of race variants, substitution levels, racial feats, spells and powers, PrCs, and items. Detailed history, societal workings, sample settlements and groups. And lavishingly illustrated through the works of yours trully. Watch out for it, release date unknow, may take a while.
Cool! Can't wait to see this Penn.
Speaking of "taking root," I just saw a Dungeon Magazine adventure, "Root of Evil," about an evil demon possessed tree that sucks the life outta everything in the region. (I also remember a Dragon Ball Z episode with a similar premise...) Anyways, maybe something similar could exist on Athas -perhaps as a defense mechanism to the sentient life which wreaked so much havok on plant life. Perhaps it would be a psionic tree, which feeds of the intelligence of creatures in the area (a variation on your idea of intelligence drain).
That was actually one of the DBZ movies. The tree was an emense beast, sort of like the twisted cousin of Yggdrasil.
i'm also of the "sorcerer-kings-stay-near-their-source-of-power" school of thought as well; BUT it doesn't mean that an aspiring defiler/dragon, say like Farcluun for example, can't move beyond the tablelands and develop his/her own city-state further away...same goes for avangions or other advanced beings. far from the watchful eyes of the remaining champions a newly born advanced being could really set up shop...clear out some ancient green age ruins and build a new city with the handful of followers/worshippers that came with them, or dominate the local populace in that area. this would also allow aspiring character AB's room to explore far and wide for an area free from the politic and oppression of the tablelands...that's not to say they won't run into indigenous problems in their newfound homes however ;)
it really is a big world out there, and there's room for many things. in keeping with the setting, i try to remember that nothing on Athas is ever a TRUE paradise, and that there is always another side of the coin. huge bodies of water...poisoned by heavy metals or bitter salt or surrounded by hundreds of miles of sucking mud and ooze. vast tracts of verdent forest or jungle...filled with carnivorous or sentient plants that produce deadly gasses. beautiful and forgotten green age cities rife with psionic technologies...but also home to deadly psionic liches, undead, or another powerful race left untouched for the millenia after the Cleansing Wars...
I remember someone posting earlier that there could/should by a Nikaal nation/region. In Terrors Beyond Tyr, the Nykaal are rumored to have a nation beyond the Ringing Mountains....
I was describing a dream athas.org supplement, trying to make people salivate at the thoughy. Apparently it worked a bit too well.
...maybe this is something people would like to petition athas.org for? That's always a possibility, yuan-ti are very popular among DS fans and I've heard DS designers mention here and there over the years that they would like to see such a supplement. I would certainly ditch the Villages of the Waste redesign project (which feels and smells to me like dead fish) for the far more interesting Yuan-ti of Athas project (which is sizzling hot!).
It will be lovingly done, with plenty of race variants, substitution levels, racial feats, spells and powers, PrCs, and items. Detailed history, societal workings, sample settlements and groups. And lavishingly illustrated through the works of yours trully.
Come to think of it I'm describing WotC's Races of the Dragon and its draconic feats, sorcerer-only spells, substitution levels, draconic grafts, and its whole chapter dedicated to - of all things - kobolds! Gotta love that book. Yuan-ti of Athas would have to follow the same template, very well done this time around in the "Races of" series.
That was a joke everyone, I thought the "best kept athas.org secret" made it suspect, apparently not enough.
Your off my Hanukkah list!
Seriously though, a yuan-ti accessorry would be grand. I still want to see a revisit to the Villages of the Wastes as well.
Your off my Hanukkah list!
Seriously though, a yuan-ti accessorry would be grand. I still want to see a revisit to the Villages of the Wastes as well.
I'd just use the Serpent Kingdoms accessorry for the FR. As much as I hate FR, the book is pretty good.
I'd just use the Serpent Kingdoms accessorry for the FR. As much as I hate FR, the book is pretty good.
Yeah, I would have to heavily modify it though. I would rather just have something geared more towards what yuan-ti should be like on Athas.
In the end I plan on getting that suppliment anyways and can deal unlike some people. ;)
I never imagined or encountered that idea before, that the yaun-ti look the way they do because they try to emulate the look of their (fictional) god. I like that.
Agreed. The whole FR they were a cursed people thanks to the god they worshipped just doesn't jive well with Athas.
I was thinking more of having them worship a nature bender that stuck around and had changed himself into something totally different to the zik-chil like some of the other benders did when they were exiled.
Using life-shaping technology the nature bender way, the people that worshipped him were able to become a pro yuan-ti and were able to genetically pass the mutations down through the other generations.
That's what I envision anyways.
That was a joke everyone, I thought the "best kept athas.org secret" made it suspect, apparently not enough.
Darn...I was going to post that the release date was April 1st of this year but I had a little seed of doubt settle in my dark and fertile soul and I did not...I knew it was too good to be true.
Good job Pennarin :P :D
Tykus,
I believe that DS has a dystopic paradise already: Saragar. Don't you remember Saragar: "Where Unhappiness Is Against the Law."
What kind of dystopic paradises can you imagine outside of Saragar?
I am currently molding Eldaarich into a dystopia (post-9/11 US; McCarthy-era US; North Corea; 1984 -inspired) but I'd hardly call it a "dystopic paradise" (although its citizens would -and if you don't agree, you'll vanish in the night!) I really can't think of another "dystopic paradise" that falls out of the Saragar model. Can you expand on that a little?
itf
Well, I believe the aforementioned acidic paradise is a good start. Saragar might be a paradise to the humanoid Tablelanders, but probably not to the Kreen. Paradise is a matter of perception. Ironically, most of Athas would be paradise to the various kreen (they're adapted for it), but places like the Forest Ridge or the assorted mudflats would be pure hell for them. One has to keep in mind who this is supposed an apparent paradise for then put in the dystopic elements. The Mindlords of Saragar represent the last......bastion of the Green Age but the thought police aspect of the region isn't apparent to all unless you've grown up there or have been there for a few months. I seem to recall that in the short story for the Mindlords supplement, the young woman mentioned at the beginning never wanted to talk about Saragar before she died. Apparently, her idea of paradise was a place where there was freedom of thought.
First, came across info referring to the aforementioned sea on the other side of the TK Empire. Not so important, on this one, as it just brings up info we've already discussed. Just wanted to mention it as additional "proof" of the existance of such a place.
Secondly, and more importantly, is mention of the so-called "Lost Clans".
"Halfling fables tell of a number of clans to the far, far north who long ago lost contact with the rest of society."....and it goes on to add "Even the pterrans, during a period of rare communication, have alluded to other halfling communities on the cliffs beyond those known to the rhul-thaun."
IMO these villages would most likely be in areas D3 and/or E3. As Brian's already mentioned possible halfling ruins in area D3, this might be the better of the two locations in which to place these villages (in place of, or in addition to Magehold).
There is something I have been thinking about that I would like everyone's opinion on, and apologies in advance if this has been talked about before. But I'm wondering, how far did the Cleansing Wars go? How far did Rajaat's champions go? Did they reach the entire world of Athas? Did the wars reach all around the entire planet?
I am sort of leaning towards the view that no, the wars and the Champions did not go around the entire world of Athas, but the environmental catastrophe that resulted did affect the entire world. I sort of see the Tyr region as a center and an important hub during Green Age Athas and I agree that it is one of the last important centers of Athasian civilization today. I'm thinking along the lines of ancient Mediterranean basin or the ancient Near East a crossroads of many cultures and civlizations. Sure there were other parts of the world that had great civlizations (China for instance), but I would like to think that the big dynamic event of change took place around the Mediterranean and then had a worldwide effect (a Eurocentric view maybe, but I sort of like it with regards to making a comparison to Athas). The Cleansing Wars begun and mostly took place around the Tyr region and it spread out a bit to the other parts of the world. The champions certainly made a few visits to other regions of the continent, but primarily they viewed the Tyr region as the center of activity and the primary battlefield for their campaign.
Of course this idea has implications for many other ideas, but I figure we should take it one step at a time.
The rest of Athas certainly paid a price for what happened in the Tyr region, but they were not directly at the center of the wars. Think of the two world wars on Earth, they were mostly fought on the European battleground - there were battles in other parts of the world too, but in the end they were Eurocentric wars that had worldwide results. They started in Europe and the major powers/players were in Europe. Do you all think this is the approach to the way we should view the Cleansing Wars and its legacy on the rest of Athas?http://darkhelm.org/tiki-browse_gallery.php?galleryId=7
http://ds.daegmorgan.net/
http://www.shattered-world.org/mapping-project.asp
But I'm wondering, how far did the Cleansing Wars go? How far did Rajaat's champions go? Did they reach the entire world of Athas? Did the wars reach all around the entire planet?
From what I understand, the Tyr region seems to have been the only place the Rebirth races inhabited. They just didn't seem to migrate out much further than that, maybe due to time constraints. There was only a few thousand years between their creation and Rajaat's genocidal wars. Also, it's known that before the setting was discontinued in 2E, there was plans to release a supplement that indicated the whole rest of the planet was inhabited by Thri-Kreen, who were not targeted in the Cleansing Wars because they are not a Rebirth race.
From what I understand, the Tyr region seems to have been the only place the Rebirth races inhabited. They just didn't seem to migrate out much further than that, maybe due to time constraints. There was only a few thousand years between their creation and Rajaat's genocidal wars. Also, it's known that before the setting was discontinued in 2E, there was plans to release a supplement that indicated the whole rest of the planet was inhabited by Thri-Kreen, who were not targeted in the Cleansing Wars because they are not a Rebirth race.
That's actually a really good point, that the rebirth races were primarily centered around the Tyr region due to their connection to the Pristine Tower. And I sort of like this idea too that the Tyr region was a center of sorts for the rebirth races and the wars. But the rest of the world filled with Thri-Kreen? Would this really be the case? Given Brian's maps here, it does not seem to be the case... is that really what the designers had intended before 2e DS got discontinued?
Given Brian's maps here, it does not seem to be the case... is that really what the designers had intended before 2e DS got discontinued?
Keep in mind, that however good these maps may be, they are in no way considered official. To have the rest of the world inhabited primarily by thri-kreen was indeed a direction considered - can't remember which of the designers revealed this; it can be found in the archive thread under one of the interviews - and note that I'm can't remember off hand, how many of the designers were on board for this idea.
Also note that, as we've tried to point out, unsuccessfully, to Brian, officially the Thri-kreen Empire is significantly larger than what appears on his maps.
The way I see it, the Cleansing Wars would have pushed creatures out of the Tablelands. All the races would have ran away, either north or south (west takes them to the jagged cliffs, a death trap, east to an ocean). Eventually the races that were cleansed were all killed off. That to me means that they were tracked down everywhere. This leaves a few possibilities for creatures living in other areas. First, the non-cleansed races, plus humans who didn’t want to get involved. This would not include half-giants, but might include the odd mul. Second, the races that were cleansed may have survived by altering themselves to avoid registering to spells and powers that would show them to exist. This could mean that they were merged with some elemental creatures, or embraced the Black or Grey. Or something else. While this may not seem like a very “DS” style thing to do, it may work for us, and open up new ways for the world to have variety. While I want everything to stay in theme, I think thoughts like this could be useful and interesting. I have always thought that the elemental part of athas was under utilized, and was almost an after thought to the unique arcane magic.
So… The rest of athas depends on what you want to make of it. I like the idea that the Kreen Empire was small during the Cleansing Wars, and wasn’t able to expand until after Boyrs became the Dragon. He rampages and destroys humanoid civilizations across the land, and this in turn allows the kreen to emerge. I also like the idea that areas where the kreen could advance (north and south of the tablelands) would be in a somewhat state of constant war with the empire. The south would be a battle between the scarlet wardens and the kreen, and be mostly about undead. To the north, I see that as more the humanoid type conflict, with ancient psionic powerhouses fighting off the kreen. I see the northern realms being much more connected to the green age psionics use, and avoiding contact with the south. The kreen would also not do as well in the more northern climates because of temperature and moisture (chitin rot) considerations. For me, anything that is different and mysterious is cool. I even like the idea of the other side of the planet having some advanced civilization that is unknown to the tablelands, somewhere where elemental princes or ancestor worship (moetries and the like) are common place. Not super powered civilization, but kinda like what the green age would have developed into without Rajaat and all his “daddy-manga-style” issues. (Ever notice that he acts like the villains in anime? “I hate that I am unloved and ugly inside. So I will kill. EVERYONE!!! :raincloud )
Long post, sorry. Just so ideas. This thread is great, but without someone more “official” taking over, we will never be able to make everyone happy. And someone “official” won’t either; they just have a bit more granted authority when it comes to putting the “this is the way it works now” stamp on things. Personally, I like it loose. I can do my own thing, without feeling like I have to leave anyone’s ideas out of it.
Has anyone else been haveing problems extracting the zips from http://ds.daegmorgan.net I tried it (PC) as did my girl friend (mac) and niether of us could get either of them to extract.
I believe one other person had problems opening the files, and they rectified it by updating their unzipping program. Try that, and if that fails, let me know what program and version of that program are you using to try and unzip the files.
From what I understand, the Tyr region seems to have been the only place the Rebirth races inhabited. They just didn't seem to migrate out much further than that, maybe due to time constraints. There was only a few thousand years between their creation and Rajaat's genocidal wars. Also, it's known that before the setting was discontinued in 2E, there was plans to release a supplement that indicated the whole rest of the planet was inhabited by Thri-Kreen, who were not targeted in the Cleansing Wars because they are not a Rebirth race.
Apparently, someone is forgetting how fast Humans of European and Asian descent expanded on a little planet called Earth (less than 2000 years) and to say nothing of the U.S. Western Expansion of the 18th and 19th centuries. Given the latest best guesses on Athas' size, I think the time constraints between Rebirth and the Cleansing Wars is more than enough time for races to spread out, even with thri-kreen (I view them as sort of Native American or Mongolian tribes in this regard) all about.
We've got the Rebirth happening about 14,000 years ago. 4,300 years ago is the preserver wars, and 3,500 years ago the Cleansing Wars and lasting 1,500 years. Even discounting all the war in which a lot of exploration may or may not be happening but could be overcome by entire races trying to run away from the Tyr region, that's 14,000 years to explore and settle Athas.
2,300 years ago the East is already silt cutting off that area for exploration at least for awhile while sea going vessels are dismantled and ways of crossing the silt are found. 2,200 years ago the way South was cut off in the little experiment gone wrong, the way West was cut off sometime ealier then 10,400 years ago by the Kreen empire.
Figure 10,000 years of real exploration/settlement at most in order to give the various races time to organize, built cities, figure out they need to expand, and have a few lulls due to war.
That's not really a lot of time for exploration and settlement even accounting for magic and psionics.
If so, there's an interesting looking map in the back of this month's Dungeon magazine. It looks like an active-ish volcano that's melted a cavern inside an ice cap creating a few mini-seas presumably from melted ice. Definitely an interesting concept, and it fits with the volcanic nature of the planet.
Apparently, someone is forgetting how fast Humans of European and Asian descent expanded on a little planet called Earth (less than 2000 years) and to say nothing of the U.S. Western Expansion of the 18th and 19th centuries. Given the latest best guesses on Athas' size, I think the time constraints between Rebirth and the Cleansing Wars is more than enough time for races to spread out, even with thri-kreen (I view them as sort of Native American or Mongolian tribes in this regard) all about.
and note that green age Athas was far less ospitable for kreens than today's .
I might even suggest a kreen plot to encurage the end of the green age...
Composite Map
My eyes are getting a bit misty when I see how far Athas has come since the Tablelands, its so big now, and the new territories are not even a bit cliché!
Updated by inserting the tablelands (which I couldn't get to fit quite right, but it's close) and the Sundra peninsula (and a few bits blown up from the mini map to make it fit).
If you put the tablelands, you could put the jagged cliffs region as well.
Mind you, the map that Brian had in the places for the Tablelands & Jagged Cliffs regions, that was from cyrus9a's maaps. I have copies of them all, just need to get them back up on my website.
If you put the tablelands, you could put the jagged cliffs region as well.
I would, but I can't find an image of them anywhere on the web, and I don't relish the idea of trying to scan it in.
That being said, the only Dark Sun map I am missing is the one that came with vally of dust and fire, does anyone know where i can get a pic of it?
Btw Brian, any new maps coming up?
I had forgotten how green we made everything west of the jagged cliffs! Including the table lands really brought that out to me. I really hope you are able to include the jagged cliffs region in that composite to help bring in more of the brown look:D
That being said, the only Dark Sun map I am missing is the one that came with vally of dust and fire, does anyone know where i can get a pic of it?
Well, the idea was that everything west of the Jagged Cliffs region would be green. There's the crimson savannah which stretches for miles and miles, and then there is a couple small sources of water to help. Honestly, I like it that way.
Well, the idea was that everything west of the Jagged Cliffs region would be green. There's the crimson savannah which stretches for miles and miles, and then there is a couple small sources of water to help. Honestly, I like it that way.
Oh I dont mind it that way, I was just trying to get the Dark Sun 2E box map included in the compilation without being too demanding lol:D
Btw, have you seen my lite version of the Urik Heraldry?
Look in my signature please and reply! :D
Email me, Grummore.sorry for the long period of absence. life has been incredibly hectic, and sadly there has nary been any time for your dear narrator to make new maps! thankfully, summer is waning, things are mellowing a bit and once i clear away some other obligations i will resume the cartography once again. i'm very happy to see that this thread is still alive and well, and that people are still brewing up ideas and brainstorms for various areas and unexplored regions. absolutely love the huge composite too! more to come!
~B-)
:P
I am new here and when I saw the maps done by Brian was impressed, they have a great quality and I think it was really lacking something on the rest of the world of Athas
I liked that material a lot done by Brian, and know that you have a new fan... XD. I would Only like to know that material when ready it will be published as official by athas.org, because it would be more than deserved.
I would also find interesting if they were done in that same format the maps of the plateau of Tyr, because the quality of Brian's maps is a lot of times better than the available maps.
Does anyone know if there are any 3.5 stats for them, and if so where? I would like to see if they need any Athasian tweaking and how viable they would be as a PC race. What do you guys think?
Does anyone know if there are any 3.5 stats for them, and if so where?
MMII p. 154-157 (and then look at the next entry, too...you might find that one to your liking too)
MMII p. 154-157 (and then look at the next entry, too...you might find that one to your liking too)
Ah thanks, I always forget about MM2 lol. Oh and yes you are right I am very fond of the entry after the myconids:D
--come and see, yo! NB
I agree that Cthuul is a rather standard theme. This forest and this world deserve better.
Here's my idea:
During the Cleansing Wars a great green jungle teeming with life of all kinds existed here. Elves cavorted with other woodland creatures. Sprites, brownies, and pixies, and made hidden citadels in the deep woods out of the very trees themselves. Very Tolkien of them. Then came Pixie Blight. With a forest of this size, so teeming with pixies and those associating with them, the Champions wrath was furios. So with a team of defilers a powerful spell was cast...
... and the region was petrified. Utterly. Today, from a distance, this forest still looks like a lush, teeming region. Its reaches dark, thick, and verdant. As you approach you realize something isnt right. The front is too dark. The mist hangs over the trees in the way that steam might rise over a boiling pot. And then it all comes into view. Stone. Nothing but stone. The trees. The anmials. The leaves. All in shades of gray and black.
Somewhere within rumors persist of a Storm King. A powerful rain cleric who has tamed the scalding steam that evaporates every morning from, and condenses every evening on the stone forest. Perhaps he exists. Perhaps it is just another lie elves and bards tell to gain another bit...
Cheers,
-Ed
Area G7:
The G does not stand for Good place to live. It stands for Giants.
Theres an Iron mine? Ok. Im sure trade caravans go back and forth from the two islands, in order to utilize this mine. They'd need to. So they could make more weapons. To replace the once they lost fighting the giants the last time the Giant tribes raided the only crucible of civilisation left on a world forsaken by all the ancient gods.
A brief history: This is the land Dregoth came from, the land that fueled his hatred for the Giant populace. Always wealthy, even in the green age, the communities amongst the islands and coastline here were known for two things: the exquisite iron workmanship from the artisans, and the military might of its armies. Many historians used to remark that if it were not for the constant wars between the Giants here and the areas inhabitants, an empire worthy of note would have formed long ago. Thus however bad the giants were for the populace here, for the rest of the world they were a cultural boon. So nothing was done about them.
Then the Cleansing wars happened, and over the centuries of these wars the raiding giant tribes fury ebbed and flowed like the tide, but they never really went away. At last exhausted by the stubborn will of his adversaries, Dregoth called down a stone from the sky, and the stone struck the eastern coast, tearing a hole in the earth, and turning the now silt sea in this area to glass. Scorching the land for miles, and making it unlivable for an even greater distance, Dregoth still did not accomplish his goal. Some giants survived, and carried word that their greatest city was now a ruin, its glazed towers overlooking a shimmering sea of glass. Their budding culture now destroyed, the Giants spiraled quickly into barbarism across Athas. But they never left their homeland. Though the purpose of their wars with the island nation have been forgotten, the war rages on...
the jungles cthuul (the name is a placeholder so please help me think of another name) are fetid poisonous jungles that have grown around the mud flats and salt pools mentioned above. despite being lush and green, they are by no means a paradise. poisonous vapors are given off by much of the flora, and several plants are carnivorous in nature. massive insects lurk in the dense underbrush...or at least that was what i was thinking when i made that area. i like the idea that this area was a bastion for fey and was a "last stand" when the Pixie Blight and Slayer of Elves rolled through to eradicate them all...turning the jungles/forests that they held dear against them with dark and vile magics. stone forest is cool but would fit more in another area i would think. again, take these images and run with them. great ideas from everyone so keep it goin'. remember, just because it's green doesn't mean it's nice. ;)
i feel the amount of green is just fine, not to say that people can't trim it back if they like, but i've mentioned my reasoning before. considering the surface area of the planet overall the amount of green that i have splashed across the various maps is rather grim and in line with a dying world. as the planet heats the water will evaporate or travel underground, add to that the defiling process and you'll find that the equatorial regions will dry up faster and become barren a lot more quickly than other areas. the northern and southern poles begin to melt and evaporate as the choking silt grows steadily. large oceans will dry up leaving silt and vast sucking, alkaline mud flats and acidic salt pools. some vegetation may adapt to the changes while other plants and animals will die out and leave room for others to take their place.
the jungles cthuul (the name is a placeholder so please help me think of another name) are fetid poisonous jungles that have grown around the mud flats and salt pools mentioned above. despite being lush and green, they are by no means a paradise. poisonous vapors are given off by much of the flora, and several plants are carnivorous in nature. massive insects lurk in the dense underbrush...or at least that was what i was thinking when i made that area. i like the idea that this area was a bastion for fey and was a "last stand" when the Pixie Blight and Slayer of Elves rolled through to eradicate them all...turning the jungles/forests that they held dear against them with dark and vile magics. stone forest is cool but would fit more in another area i would think. again, take these images and run with them. great ideas from everyone so keep it goin'. remember, just because it's green doesn't mean it's nice. ;)
I don't think that the problem with it is that it's too nice -- just that a lot of people, when they think of Athas, they envision scenes from Star Wars' 'Tattoine', or Dune's 'Arrakis' -- both of which are decidedly less...green.
:D ;)
Long time lurker 1st time poster onm this thread. Nice maps Brian. Minor quibble they look to green as it seems most of the area outside the Tyr region is remarkably verdant.
I have to say I disagree. Because When the CW started in the Green Age, everything was green, from top to bottom. The world was filled with forrests and sees. So when Rajaat's champs went on with his warfare, and let's no forget they were only 15 or 16. Although they had herds of arch defilers they couldn't destroy ALL Athas' forrests even if there had been double the amount for them to annihilate.
The area around Gulg and Nibenay, has been green since the 1st boxed set. So why can't there be any green in the Tyr region? The nature has had a lot of time to recover, and let's not forget that clerics and druids roam the tablelands...I have to say I disagree. Because When the CW started in the Green Age, everything was green, from top to bottom. The world was filled with forrests and sees. So when Rajaat's champs went on with his warfare, and let's no forget they were only 15 or 16. Although they had herds of arch defilers they couldn't destroy ALL Athas' forrests even if there had been double the amount for them to annihilate.
I don't object water on Athas but alot of those maps have large bodies of water on them bigger than the Last Sea and even complete rivers. The areas west of the Jagged cliffs look comparitivly fertile ie Dunswich.
I don't object water on Athas but alot of those maps have large bodies of water on them bigger than the Last Sea and even complete rivers. The areas west of the Jagged cliffs look comparitivly fertile ie Dunswich.
To me, that makes sense. What information we have about the area west of the Jagged Cliffs is the Crimson Savannah, and it would bear to reason that there could be larger bodies of water there. Remember, that's a pretty good distance down. *Some* of the ancient oceans should have survived -- even if all that is left are remnants comprised of lakes and inland seas.
As I am retaking DS to v3.5 I'm happy to see other people love it as much or eve more than I do.
I will begin a new campaing so I´ll surely be posting lost of questions on DS details.
Cheers
Angel
Hello all member, Kudos to Brian and Ral of Tyr and Rhul-Than Sage for the beautiful maps.
As I am retaking DS to v3.5 I'm happy to see other people love it as much or eve more than I do.
I will begin a new campaing so I´ll surely be posting lost of questions on DS details.
Cheers
Angel
Did I make a map?? :D ... oh wait are you talking about the Last Port Map?
Whatever happened to Brian
You're not alone in wanting to know.
I also want this thread stickyed, it's the longest and most popular thread we've ever had in this forum.
Brian work is great. It's so cool to see all those region beyond the Tablelands and the Jagged Cliffs (Athas seems so BIG now ;)), and I hope that he'll post more maps soon.
About the maps, imho the region in the eastern coast of the Sea of Silt (E4 and E5) may have been ravaged by the Dragon, since they're near to Ur Draxa (like the Tyr Region). If there are cities here, Borys may've asked an annual levy even there. There's no need of other Sorcerer-Kings if we don't want them: a "practically omnipotent" creature like Borys simply could order "give me an annual levy or I'll destroy your city!"
After the death of the Dragon, I think that even in theese areas there are Tyr Storms (obviously called with another name there).
I'm from Italy, so please, forgive all my grammar errors :P
I'm from Italy, so please, forgive all my grammar errors :P
You're spelling better than many native speakers, don't fret about it ;)
Back in topic, I really enjoyed the inclusion of Elemental advanced beigns in places like the Storm King in the Empire (northen D3), mostly because we didn't see ANY Elemental advanced being in any AD&D manual, IIRC.
Since in the Green Age the Tyr Region was called "Heartlands", it make sense for me that even today, this region is the most civilized one so, besides the Kreen empire, there should be very few places with cities as large as the City-States that we all know and love.
waht are yuo tlaking abuot?
I'm neber responcabel fer my comuter's spleling errnors.
Back in topic, I really enjoyed the inclusion of Elemental advanced beigns in places like the Storm King in the Empire (northen D3), mostly because we didn't see ANY Elemental advanced being in any AD&D manual, IIRC.
Many a fan say that the Tablelands are too arcane magic-centric, but I disagree. There are historical reasons to make that region so, but still...until Brian came up with his maps I never could quite focus my imagination on other places where elemental magic might reign supreme.
The region ruled by the Storm King is one such place, so is the place imagined by Meth in Areas B7 and B8 - Drake's Tail Peninsula (Southern Brown Lands), located in post #113 of page 4. The place is ruled by an elemental theocracy - priest cults - and they and the population worship drakes, and they have half-drakes as their high priests. One city-state wars against another of the opposing element, maybe one of the last places on Athas where the four elements of the Pact are still at war with another, even if still only ritualised...
But, in the far regions of Athas, even I think that is right to have more divine magic-focused places.
I like the idea with war between the four elements, especially in the least ravaged places, while regions with severe enviromental problems may focus on elemental vs paraelemental clerics.
In places like the Cauldron and the Glass Sea, is easy even to develop a war between paralemental Pacts. The Glass Sea can be considered as a Magma "invasion" of the Silt.
Is there a link somewhere to download all these really nice maps of athas?
I'm new here, founded this thread looking for DarkSun immages..
Gourgeous!!
Let me post a question:
As long as I read it seemed that you think that all of Athas is inhabited by remnant of the Blu or Green-age cultures. So the Cleasing Wars has to be more like a World War..
I have never thought about this..It's possible that the champions have guided their troops all around the globe?
How can they achieved their goals (those who did it)..?
From what I know about Athas it seemed that Champions never traveled very far nor to the cliff regions, nor to the last sea.
I thought that the culture of the Green Age fluorished around the blue see that one was the Silt Sea, around the Valley of the Cerulen Storm.
Athas has been visited in the past by some plane traveller, have a look of the Psurlon race and the primitive gith could be the remnant of a colony of githyanky or Githzerai..
About Messanger it's logical to think that it's a comet. Comets are bodies of rock and ice traveling around universe along very long, ellittical trips, but they are very regular on their ways.
Athas has to be a planet, actually I always thought that it had to be bigger then our Earth..
There are no mentions about other planets around the same sun, but it's possible that in the growing of the sun from yellow to red it "eated" them leaving only Athas.
Actually Athas is a planet with 2 moons one of those is far bigger then our Moon, but round around it (see the cycles of the moon, they are too regular to be in a different way), but it's possible that the bigger moon (Guthay?) is big enought to be considered a twin planet...but if it's so the other one should have some gravitational problems..it should have been destrioed by opposite gravity field of two planets!
I hope my writings are comprehensible..I write frome Italy..Florence actually..
If some other italian DS fans are around, contact me!
Bye
From what I know about Athas it seemed that Champions never traveled very far nor to the cliff regions, nor to the last sea.
Actually, one Champion did go to the Last Sea. Keltis (later to become Oronis) showed up with his army looking for lizardfolk.
As for not going to the Jagged Cliffs region, I'm pretty sure that was due to Rajaat ordering them not to, so as to keep the Rhul-Thaun culture intact to inherit the new Blue Age.
It's written in the "windrider of the jagged cliff" or is your opinion about the interdiction of the Jgged Cliff Region..? I can't remember..
The fact is that the cultures of the previous age developed in the Tyr Region, not spawning very far.
It can't be a concurrency that the Pristine Tower, the Valley of Dust and Fire (of the Cerulen Storm), more than half of the Dragon-King estrablished their reigns there.
If the Champions could have wandered to the northern or souther region, they should have known about better places with more iron mines or more water (and plant to leech at) and they would have traveled to a more confortable and rich place. A Dragon King could easily travel along great distances with all their minions (throught a Worm Hole)!
If the Champions could have wandered to the northern or souther region, they should have known about better places with more iron mines or more water (and plant to leech at) and they would have traveled to a more confortable and rich place. A Dragon King could easily travel along great distances with all their minions (throught a Worm Hole)!
I like to think Borys the Dragon ordered them not to wander because of the yearly levy: 1000 slaves from each city-state needed to preserve the prison of Raajat intact. I mean even with dragon magic 1000 slaves is many to teleport. The closer they were from Ur'Draxa the less slave would die from the voyage. And the reason I think the City-States are not around Ur'Draxa is merely game play practicality from the darksun Wold creators.
For the download of the carthography one has to have some software?
I cannot open the zipped files..
If you try opening them directly, they don't seem to work, but if you download the .zip to your PC, then open it it should work.
People still bother with the Dark Sun wikipedia article? I'm impressed. I used to try to keep it maintained, and then lost interest because it didn't seem to be used much...
It's been edited about 10 times since the beginning of the year, as for how many people actually read it, I don't know.
People still bother with the Dark Sun wikipedia article? I'm impressed. I used to try to keep it maintained, and then lost interest because it didn't seem to be used much...
Might it be the fact it's very much a work in progress. The more information it has the more it will be used.
People still bother with the Dark Sun wikipedia article? I'm impressed. I used to try to keep it maintained, and then lost interest because it didn't seem to be used much...
Well, cant' talk for everybody, but I just read it, discovered of this thread, came here and found out of these maps!!!
So, Wikipedia sometimes IS useful!! ;););)
BTW, sorry but I don't feel like reading all the older pages in order to find out where the maps are hosted for download. If someone could kindly help...
BTW, sorry but I don't feel like reading all the older pages in order to find out where the maps are hosted for download. If someone could kindly help...
I think Bruno may be confused. All of Brian's maps are hosted at the Athasian Cartographer's Guild.
How about you Greyorm? Have you had any news from Brian?
I haven't heard from Brian at all since he finished sending me the maps for uploading (I think I have them all, but if anyone notices one from this thread missing on the site, please let me know), though I have seen him post here and there on the boards since. I really don't know where he is.
i changed jobs last april and work at a vfx production house. the work is very challenging and fun, but the deadlines are insane so sadly my time as an artist outside work has dwindled drastically. not to mention i'm not allowed access to the internet at my new job either.
i've just been lurking around here off and on. actually came back to check up on the boards and had to change over to the gleemax stuff or whathaveyou. so yes...now i'm bfishy...but still brian. ;)
as for production of more maps? i can't give a definite time. it's been difficult to say the least...and my apologies to everyone for not being as active or communicative as i used to be and dropping off the face of the planet. i hope to get a bit more time as summer approaches. thanks for keepin' this thread alive tho! i'm glad that my work is still appreciated! :D
~B-)
Take your time to set up. Then, cook us a few more maps! ;)
That being said has anyone else printed up the globe map of athas, cut it out, folded, and glued it into a little planet athas globe that they have sitting on their computer desk lol?
Also is there a way to download them and print them out easily without requiring fancy software (PDF?).
I can set up pretty much anything. What would you like?
(I will note there are PSD file viewers out there, but I have no experience with any of them, so I can't give a recommendation.)
I can set up pretty much anything. What would you like?
(I will note there are PSD file viewers out there, but I have no experience with any of them, so I can't give a recommendation.)
I wouldn't mind them as a PDF so I could print them out.
I wouldn't mind them as a PDF so I could print them out.
If you can wait until next week sometime, I'll see what I can do. Shouldn't be a problem, just need the time to reformat, upload, and edit the page for them. I'll post here when it's ready.
If you can wait until next week sometime, I'll see what I can do. Shouldn't be a problem, just need the time to reformat, upload, and edit the page for them. I'll post here when it's ready.
I've got them already as another kind soul helped me out. Thanx.
Besides if I was a powerful government I wouldn't want to be stuck between undead and a kreen empire.
B3 or D2 look isolated, and according to MM1 Yuan-Ti inhabit Warm (redundant on Athas) Forests.
Besides if I was a powerful government I wouldn't want to be stuck between undead and a kreen empire.
Yuan Ti lve in the Tyr region. What they prefer to live in is kinda moot on Athas. The undead aren't expadinf and the reen can't really function in the misty border.
I found this thread through the wikepedia article and had to check it out.
I read the first few posts, then skimmed all 16 pages just to get a general feel for everything. All I have to say is...wow, Brian, nice work. The maps are beautiful.
Anyway, so I've always had the idea of going back to the Merchant's Calendar to be a little more interactive in terms of searching for specific events. However, if and when I do go back to re-visit it, I want to try to avoid being at odds with the fan-created content that has been done to date.
In particular, this map thread caught my attention because Brian, by necessity, had to come up with a pretty good estimate for the surface area of Athas, which has a direct effect on the radius of the planet.
Since I really don't want to select planetary values that would be at odds with all the hard work Brian has done, my goal is to start with the "facts" laid forth in the DS canon (which hint at the orbital periods of Ral and Guthay), as well as the size of Athas as estimated by Brian.
The radius of Athas, when coupled with the average density of the planet, will yield a mass, that mass can be used to determine how far away Guthay and Ral must be in order to orbit Athas in the required amount of time (125 days for Guthay, 33 days for Ral).
Another "fixed" value is acceleration due to gravity on the surface of Athas. While there is some "wiggle-room", I feel that this should be approximately that of Earth (9.81 m/s^2), or perhaps slightly higher. In order to achieve a high surface gravity on a planet only slightly larger than the Earth's moon, density will have to go up quite a bit. This isn't a big deal, since the high average density can be explained by giving Athas a very dense, metallic core.
Thus, density will probably end up being whatever value solves the equation when radius and surface gravity are known.
Once radius and density are determined, I can plug in the values to find out how far away Ral and Guthays' orbits are.
Ok, so you are probably thinking that all this is way more information than needed.
Probably true...but I kinda want to figure it out anyway.Also...the benefits of figuring it out could be very, very cool... With a little work, the Athasian solar system could be modelled in the free space/planetarium software known as Celestia ( http://www.shatters.net/celestia/ ), with Brian's maps serving as the surface. See the "Fictional" section at the Celestia add on site to get an idea of what is possible: http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/ (and yes...even things like the Messenger could be included.)
Anyway...I realize that is sort of "pie in the sky" at this point, but it just shows what could be.
Hello, I'm new to the forum, but have been a long time DS fan and am the coder behind "The Merchant's Calendar". I still have my little hovel of a website up (The Dragon's Sanctum), though it has been quite some time since the last update.
I found this thread through the wikepedia article and had to check it out.
I read the first few posts, then skimmed all 16 pages just to get a general feel for everything. All I have to say is...wow, Brian, nice work. The maps are beautiful.
Anyway, so I've always had the idea of going back to the Merchant's Calendar to be a little more interactive in terms of searching for specific events. However, if and when I do go back to re-visit it, I want to try to avoid being at odds with the fan-created content that has been done to date.
In particular, this map thread caught my attention because Brian, by necessity, had to come up with a pretty good estimate for the surface area of Athas, which has a direct effect on the radius of the planet.
Since I really don't want to select planetary values that would be at odds with all the hard work Brian has done, my goal is to start with the "facts" laid forth in the DS canon (which hint at the orbital periods of Ral and Guthay), as well as the size of Athas as estimated by Brian.
The radius of Athas, when coupled with the average density of the planet, will yield a mass, that mass can be used to determine how far away Guthay and Ral must be in order to orbit Athas in the required amount of time (125 days for Guthay, 33 days for Ral).
Another "fixed" value is acceleration due to gravity on the surface of Athas. While there is some "wiggle-room", I feel that this should be approximately that of Earth (9.81 m/s^2), or perhaps slightly higher. In order to achieve a high surface gravity on a planet only slightly larger than the Earth's moon, density will have to go up quite a bit. This isn't a big deal, since the high average density can be explained by giving Athas a very dense, metallic core.
Thus, density will probably end up being whatever value solves the equation when radius and surface gravity are known.
Once radius and density are determined, I can plug in the values to find out how far away Ral and Guthays' orbits are.
Ok, so you are probably thinking that all this is way more information than needed.
Also...the benefits of figuring it out could be very, very cool... With a little work, the Athasian solar system could be modelled in the free space/planetarium software known as Celestia ( http://www.shatters.net/celestia/ ), with Brian's maps serving as the surface. See the "Fictional" section at the Celestia add on site to get an idea of what is possible: http://www.celestiamotherlode.net/ (and yes...even things like the Messenger could be included.)
Anyway...I realize that is sort of "pie in the sky" at this point, but it just shows what could be.
Just want to say that I am a huge fan of your Merchant's Calendar program - I used the original back in the day and use the newer version all the time in my DS games. (In fact we have character prep for a new arc of adventures tonight and so I'll be using it this very evening to look for interesting celestial events in the characters' birthdays etc.)
Anyway, if you are going to make an updated version of the program based on DS canon, then that gets a huge thumbs-up from me. Do keep us posted on your ideas!
I repurchased the expanded and revised box set not too long ago, and having been looking over the 3.5 materials on athas.org, in preparation for an online dark sun game I intend to run. I haven't run anything in over 10 years and that lasted one session (my first and only... first and only time I DMed as well), and am looking forward to running something that lasts. I've been searching for materials and came to this thread via wiki. I've been posting at the gleemax forums for about a year and was never aware of the existence of a dark sun forum! Though I never really got much beyond the revised campaign box in my personal exploration of athas, it's always been my favorite setting. I'm really glad to find these maps and hope to use some of them in my game. They will definitely help me better gain a better understanding of the setting as I continue to search through the old books, modules, and materials.
Many thanks!
I dont know how i missed these when they were first discussed.
All i can say is i have taken a long break from the world of athas and am now very much interested in coming back.
Are there any more of these still forthcoming?
-ashy
Just stumbled upon this thread last week and had to revive my old non-active account to post a reply.....this is wondefull and well executed material that deserves to be completed properly!
i remember seeing here that someone linked it but am too lazy to search. thanks whoever you are.
-ashy
I think I'm going to try and e-mail the person responsible for all those good maps. If he doesn't have the time to finish them, he might have some notes lying around about the yet unfinished/unposted regions. I think I read somewhere that he actually WAS working on some new ones.....so there must be something to work from.
Is there anyway that you could group all the info into just one download? It might make things easier if someone wants to just get all of the goodness at once.
Done (for the basic map and tools). Note: I won't group all the maps into one download given their size and my bandwith costs. I suppose I could always create a .torrent of the entire set if the demand for it was high enough: I'll look into that and report back when I do.
Also, I've added thumbnail links to JPGs of the maps for those who don't want the larger PSD versions. Told you I'd eventually get to it.
Done (for the basic map and tools). Note: I won't group all the maps into one download given their size and my bandwith costs. I suppose I could always create a .torrent of the entire set if the demand for it was high enough: I'll look into that and report back when I do.
Also, I've added thumbnail links to JPGs of the maps for those who don't want the larger PSD versions. Told you I'd eventually get to it.
thanks
Which version of Photoshop should I be looking for to play with these maps? Would Elements be sufficient, I'd hate to pay for CS4! Thanks.
I have no experience with Elements, so I don't know if it would work, but I suspect any program capable of opening PSD documents with layers and text should work. I believe the version of PhotoShop used to make the images was CS2, or whatever was standard in '05. You can also try the GIMP, which is an open-source PhotoShop-like program that can handle PSD files.
Hey Ashy!
I think I'm going to try and e-mail the person responsible for all those good maps. If he doesn't have the time to finish them, he might have some notes lying around about the yet unfinished/unposted regions. I think I read somewhere that he actually WAS working on some new ones.....so there must be something to work from.
If you can do that, it would be great! As for myself, I dont think I have the qualification to do them as they should.
Btw, hi everybody! Been a while!
I have no experience with Elements, so I don't know if it would work, but I suspect any program capable of opening PSD documents with layers and text should work. I believe the version of PhotoShop used to make the images was CS2, or whatever was standard in '05. You can also try the GIMP, which is an open-source PhotoShop-like program that can handle PSD files.
Cool, thanks. I've been looking at the GIMP. I guess I'll try that before I spend any money.
I've recently downloaded it and couldn't find out if the project has stopped or not.
This thread is too precious to be forgotten. I summon it from the dregs alternately for your reverie or perusal. Do not forget the handsome website of the Athasian Cartographer's Guild ds.daegmorgan.net/.
Happy Dark Sunning.
Gentlemen,
This thread is too precious to be forgotten. I summon it from the dregs alternately for your reverie or perusal. Do not forget the handsome website of the Athasian Cartographer's Guild ds.daegmorgan.net/.
Happy Dark Sunning.
seconded. any updates on this world map? id love one massive jpeg of it! iFrame RemovediFrame Removed
PS - I'm worthless with net-design. I can compile and archive the research but someone else has to put the map together and do the coding. It'd be kind of nice if we could figure out some sort of moderated wiki-style way to update the map once it's in place so that people can add references I may have missed. If we do a map, I would highly recommend we just start from scratch as all the map images I've been able to find (and believe me, I've been collecting/searching for a couple years now online) aren't very useable for what we are doing. The hand-drawn ones tend to pixelate if not scanned correctly, but even when they are, they lack as much detail as I'd like due to their method of creation. Likewise, there's little congruency between the different maps and they line up kind of stangely, leaving odd gaps in the world (try using any Tyr region map with the Valley of Dust and Fire and you'll see what I mean) and, in any case, none of them have all the markings we'd need anyway.
As far as the map design, I really think it'd be advantageous to eventually provide 'pop-out' maps at different points of interest if they have been provided/described in the source materials. That would make things incredibly easy (all my criticisms of the pre-existing Athas maps go double for city/site maps).
So, if anyone's interested, just PM me.
Likewise, there's little congruency between the different maps and they line up kind of stangely, leaving odd gaps in the world (try using any Tyr region map with the Valley of Dust and Fire and you'll see what I mean)
Map of Athas using both the Tyr region, the Jagged Cliffs Region and the Valley of Dust and Fire.
There is the entire East side above and below the Valley of Dust and Fire that hasn't been mapped. But beyond that the areas actually match up very closely. Enough for a map to be produced that you can look at and it look like it's all part of the same world.
All in all I'm quite happy with that map. Are there other maps for the regions that I've neglected to include?
Still, unfortunately, these maps, though they were the official ones, are still far from exhaustive. One example is the Silt Archipeligo, which doesn't show Mytilene or Lybdos. Or the locations within and around the Dragon's Crown Mts and so on.
I definitely appreciate finally having a map like that though. It'd be great if you could post it in a way similar to the guy on digitalwander with pop-up location discriptions and the like: www.digitalwanderer.net/darksun/
I could provide info on relationships between sites and such.