Hence why some folks don't consider it to be "real."
Since the novels were written by the setting's author(s), why wouldn't it be real?
To be fair, the novels were written by Troy Denning and his only contribution to the actual game material (as I recall, which may not be accurate) was the adventure that followed the events of his novels. But obviously the game authors considered it valuable enough to codify it.
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To be fair, the novels were written by Troy Denning and his only contribution to the actual game material (as I recall, which may not be accurate) was the adventure that followed the events of his novels. But obviously the game authors considered it valuable enough to codify it.
Uhh... Troy Denning was one of the three original designers of the Dark Sun setting. Some people might not like everything in his novels, but it's a little silly to dismiss them as not being part of the designers' original vision for Dark Sun.
Uhh... Troy Denning was one of the three original designers of the Dark Sun setting. Some people might not like everything in his novels, but it's a little silly to dismiss them as not being part of the designers' original vision for Dark Sun.
I agree! I'm glad you do as well.
Just so we're clear, I'm not passing judgement on the actual material, just patronizing the sort of people who cling to a single iteration of a game like sad zealots instead of embracing them all.
But obviously the game authors considered it valuable enough to codify it.
One of the "game authors" was Troy Denning. He was senior designer with TSR at the time. So, yeah...
I'm still not sure what you were actually saying, but that might just be me being thick. I'm like a bear with a bad head today.
The revised material is the best for details on the history, but we had canon information on rajaat, the cleansing war and the different ages before that, even before beyond the prism pentad. The city by the silt sea has a nice secton on this subject. Although not as detailed as the revised info.
I guess people either don't remember that, don't know it or enjoy ignoring that fact.
I must have misunderstood your post. I thought you were claiming that the novels and that one adventure were the only things Troy Denning did for Dark Sun ("his only contribution to the game material").
My fault for the confusion. I was simply trying to provide a possible justification for folks who feel that the revised history wasn't canon (which is not how I feel) without verifying that what I said was completely accurate (hence "as I recall, which may not be accurate").
I was going to way too much effort to be snarky. Put more concisely: I think "canon wars" are silly.
I was simply trying to provide a possible justification for folks who feel that the revised history wasn't canon (which is not how I feel)
Heh. The problem with playing the Devil's advocate is that, occasionally, people will assume you really do work for him. ;)
The revised material is the best for details on the history, but we had canon information on rajaat, the cleansing war and the different ages before that, even before beyond the prism pentad. The city by the silt sea has a nice secton on this subject. Although not as detailed as the revised info.
I guess people either don't remember that, don't know it or enjoy ignoring that fact.
Thri-Kreen of Athas and the second DS monsterous compendium also mention the cleansing wars history as well.
They ruined Planescape (factions booted out etc)
Dark Sun (half the Sks dead, Dragon dead a democracy a freakin DEMOCRACY?! oh and rain storms etc)
Ravenloft (three major revisions oh what a mess they made of it!!)
etc
so yes, some of us bitterly object to the "cannon"
I love Athas as a mystery, stop damn well forcing us to go the "TSR/WOTC" way, grrr
you want to follow the novels, fine, I and many others absolutely do not
sorry to be so vitriolic, but it was a real pain in the ass dealing with TSR's metaplot mayhem. Sigh.
Aye, lots of us got extremely P****ED OFF at having settings constantly bloody changed entirely to fit the need to sell new boxed sets, etc.
They ruined Planescape (factions booted out etc)
Dark Sun (half the Sks dead, Dragon dead a democracy a freakin DEMOCRACY?! oh and rain storms etc)
Ravenloft (three major revisions oh what a mess they made of it!!)
etc
so yes, some of us bitterly object to the "cannon"
I love Athas as a mystery, stop damn well forcing us to go the "TSR/WOTC" way, grrr
you want to follow the novels, fine, I and many others absolutely do not
sorry to be so vitriolic, but it was a real pain in the ass dealing with TSR's metaplot mayhem. Sigh.
Easy there.
I think this is the reason that with the 4th ed release they pulled things back to the point right after the first novel and the fall of Kalak. They even left things vague as to if Kalak is really dead or just hiding off the grid somewhere. You can follow the plot off the novels if you wish, or you can take the story in a whole new direction, presumably with the PCs as the heroes, not Rikus and company. I know that if I run Darksun (which I might) the Dragon isn't dying unless my PCs do the butt kicking. And IMHO in a good heroic tier campaign things like the SKs and the Dragon are more background fluff than actual plot elements, as they are epic level threats.
1991 DS comes out, bam Kalak dead.
1993 Prism Pentad complete. Dragon and 4/7 SK's dead/missing.
It was hinted at in the 1st boxed set that Kalak and Abalach Re were having problems but damn that was quick.
That is, the original 1E set gave off a specific "feel" that drew many fans to it. When the "feel" of the world was messed with, those same people who really liked what that first set provided did not like how the additions or changes made to the setting changed the feel of the whole.
(This is the same reason, for example, many people consider the second set of Star Wars movies to be betrayals of the vision or feel of the first three. They were poorly done, with unengaging storylines and none of the narrative feel of the original.
Or when a band changes lead singer or its style, fans don't consider them to be really the same band, because it isn't the same music they associate with that label -- ie: band name.)
It isn't for no reason, but has to do with changes being made to the material post-release.
That is, the original 1E set gave off a specific "feel" that drew many fans to it. When the "feel" of the world was messed with, those same people who really liked what that first set provided did not like how the additions or changes made to the setting changed the feel of the whole.
(This is the same reason, for example, many people consider the second set of Star Wars movies to be betrayals of the vision or feel of the first three. They were poorly done, with unengaging storylines and none of the narrative feel of the original.
Or when a band changes lead singer or its style, fans don't consider them to be really the same band, because it isn't the same music they associate with that label -- ie: band name.)
This is how I feel exactly. I acknowledge that they novels etc. were cannon, but they stripped away a lot of what appealed to me in the setting and replaced it with things I thought were "less then awesome"...
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with liking or using the official 2nd ed back-story or the novels but they are not at all what I envision Dark Sun to be and if the 4th ed setting had been set "later" in that cannon I almost certainly would have passed on it.
It isn't for no reason, but has to do with changes being made to the material post-release.
That is, the original 1E set gave off a specific "feel" that drew many fans to it. When the "feel" of the world was messed with, those same people who really liked what that first set provided did not like how the additions or changes made to the setting changed the feel of the whole.
(This is the same reason, for example, many people consider the second set of Star Wars movies to be betrayals of the vision or feel of the first three. They were poorly done, with unengaging storylines and none of the narrative feel of the original.
Or when a band changes lead singer or its style, fans don't consider them to be really the same band, because it isn't the same music they associate with that label -- ie: band name.)
This is how I feel exactly. I acknowledge that they novels etc. were cannon, but they stripped away a lot of what appealed to me in the setting and replaced it with things I thought were "less then awesome"...
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with liking or using the official 2nd ed back-story or the novels but they are not at all what I envision Dark Sun to be and if the 4th ed setting had been set "later" in that cannon I almost certainly would have passed on it.
I totally agree and I recall a simular sentiment being expressed in the forum for DS 3 when the possibility of a 4th Ed campaign setting was being speculated.
but TSR did ram changes through so, SO damn fast, and it was to punt out new boxed sets/material for $$$ or just cause they didn't realize the damage, as said, look what they did to Ravenloft, jeesh!!
the 4th ed designers know that and mostly avoided it
though I still say they absolutely should not have killed off Kalak, but left it a city at the edge of change...a change each DM and Player's characters should have been involved with!
Democracy and Athas...no no NO, it's like "Happy Halfling Land" in Ravenloft
something only PCs should achieve after great effort.
People do not play Dark Sun to have a "positive heroic" Tolkein-esque setting like the Realms, keeping "good" lands free of tyranny etc.
no, Athas was LOST to the "dark forces", and you are either playing to survive, garner power, or undo the damage, that's what makes it different and fun
Greyhawk, Mystra and the Realms are too alike to support them all, but Dark Sun, Planescape, Ravenloft and Spelljammer are so different they cater to different needs
thus don't make them alike.
Tyr has been reskinned as a "democracy," but it's just as corrupt and rotten to the core as it has always been. Only difference is that now its people are starving, the huddled masses are constantly on the verge of city-wide riots, the government is non-functional, unemployment is at something like 100%, and now not even the Ziggurat is being worked on. So basically they traded in their "despotism" title for a "non-fucntioning democracy" title that superficially makes everything seem better, but in actuality will continue getting worse until the "heroes of tyr" start instituting martial law and forcing the citizens to "choose" to make the "correct" choices that will allow the city-state's economy, government and society to become functional again. Tyr will never be anything more than an oligarchy masquerading as a democracy, and the majority of its citizens will never fully participate in its government.
This is one of the things I know a lot of us old-timers love about Athas. It takes your labels and assumptions of their meaning and turns them on their heads. Like the Veiled Alliance. They're robin hood-esque rebels and upholders of truth! Right? No. They're a widespread terrorist organization. Literally inspired by and modeled/organized after real-world terrorist organizations. Take the Nibenese chapter, for instance: that whole group is nothing more than an out-of-control revenge fantasy run by a madman whose wife dumped him for a defiler. The Gulgan chapter is a crazy talking-tree-worshipping cult whose ultimate head is . . . a greedy ghost? (did I remember that right?)