So there should be nobody alive to find all those rich sources of metal anyway.
Didn't Arakis worms release gases. That might explain the oxygen levels.
Only a portion of Athas is a desert. The rest is Thri-Kreen savana paradise.
Maybe so about the sandworms. It's been a long time since I read the books. Still I have to wonder how feasible that is. As for the Savannahs of Athas, I did not know that. I played in the setting back in the day, but only had the boxed set and a couple of supplements, so my knowledge of what was beyond the tablelands is sketchy at best.
Still, it would be interesting to get a few heads together that have training in relevant fields to figure out what Athas should really be like. I.e. your point about the metals, whether or not there should be enough oxygen to support the population, what the weather patterns would be like without an ocean, etc. Not because I would want to use those details in a game, just because I am now curious.
My take for a logical explanation (which is really not necessary) would be that in the Green Age mining was prevalent and afforded tools and weapons. When the Cleansing Wars started more resources were devoted to war and less to basic needs. Self preservation and survival became much more important than metal tools when the Cleansing Wars were coming to a close and the Brown Age was beginning. Without constant upkeep and available labor mines could not keep producing. Now it's a bitch to try and mine with bone picks and wooden shovels.
The idea that metal is rare because it was all mined makes me shake my head. Also, defiling magic effecting minerals also makes me shake my head. Simply not believable.
As for the "it's magic" explanation, well if magic can destroy metal, then it can surely heal/create it, because after all, "it's magic!"
I always just figured it was a lack of knowledge and supplies. Harsh environments and raiders thin the work force, earth cults protecting rich veins they consider sacred and natural disasters like cave ins and so on. A bit more believable for me than "we used it all up!" or "it's a plot device!"
Athas would have enough oxygen to last millions of years with all the seas gone.
There is one simple explanation to why Athas is metal poor; it was made that way. I also study astronomy and planetary formation. There's a term, "Metalicity" (no it's not a heavy metal band). It doesn't mean how much metal a star has, but it makes how much material is non-H and HE (ie, matter). Stars with low-metallicity compared to our sun tend to not have any large, Jupiter like worlds whereas stars with more metallicity than our Sun, tend to have many large Jupiter-like worlds; we know this because most of the exo-planets we've found are stars with high-metallicity in them. So Athas never really had a high-metal count to began with.
Good enough explanation for you?
Somehow less of a cop-out explanation in Athas than elsewhere.
A wizard did it.
Somehow less of a cop-out explanation in Athas than elsewhere.
That made my day, thanks.
The idea that metal is rare because it was all mined makes me shake my head. Also, defiling magic effecting minerals also makes me shake my head. Simply not believable.
As for the "it's magic" explanation, well if magic can destroy metal, then it can surely heal/create it, because after all, "it's magic!"
I always just figured it was a lack of knowledge and supplies. Harsh environments and raiders thin the work force, earth cults protecting rich veins they consider sacred and natural disasters like cave ins and so on. A bit more believable for me than "we used it all up!" or "it's a plot device!"
Personally, I've also taken it to be that there is a lot of metal on Athas, it just is guarded. During the Green Age and Cleansing Wars, I believe metal was very common, however as the Cleansing Wars progressed, more and more of the metal was basically strip-mined from the region for weapons of war. When they were finished, I believe that the Champions of each army took the metal, and hid it in long-forgotten vaults, for various reasons. The result is that most of the metal in the world seemingly vanished.
I point to the PP series, specifically the details of the dwarven village of Kled, that had full plate metal suits of armor buried under the village -- something that would have been very, very strange for them to have if there never was a lot of metal to begin with -- however it simply is bizarre in modern Athas, because of the lack of metal, but is explained that it was armor made from ages past.
Why the metal was hidden by the SK's is something to speculate on. One of my old buddies suggested that maybe it is more of a twist on a "traditional" dragon concept -- they are hoarding it, with no real explanation that even they can find within themselves for it. They just have taken the metal, hidden it, and refuse to reveal it to protect their dragon hoards. Something like a compulsary action they do.
What hasn't been mentioned is that it then has to be refined and shaped into something useful. The main ingredient is heat, which traditionally came from wood. I suppose in Athas the most abundant combustable is dung. Even then, what metal ore is available? Copper would be easiest to work with and was often cast in sand molds. Things get more difficult from there.
Personally, I've also taken it to be that there is a lot of metal on Athas, it just is guarded.
I'v always considered athas as metal rich as any other world. It's just that the realities of athasian life make it very hard-to -near impossible to locate, extract and refine metal. When you cannot read and write legally, it makes things very hard.
But I agree with you, in that any metal used in the ancient wars that wasn't destroyed or lost, is probably sitting in the sorcerer kings vaults and/or used to outfit the elite of each city-state army.
During the Green Age and Cleansing Wars, I believe metal was very common, however as the Cleansing Wars progressed, more and more of the metal was basically strip-mined from the region for weapons of war.
This is where I cannot agree. I'm not expert on mineral deposits, but I do know that they can (and normally do) contain tons and tons of mineral. I'm sure there are very small ones, but the ones I'v read about range anywhere from hundreds of tons to upto a billion tons of mineral. I'm sure there are even bigger ones we simply have not found.
So, while I can accept that it's possible that the ancients did mine out smaller deposits, I cannot accept that there are no remaining deposits left beyond those found in the mines of tyr. I believe they simply either don't know where any others are, or do not have the resources to extract them.
I point to the PP series, specifically the details of the dwarven village of Kled, that had full plate metal suits of armor buried under the village -- something that would have been very, very strange for them to have if there never was a lot of metal to begin with -- however it simply is bizarre in modern Athas, because of the lack of metal, but is explained that it was armor made from ages past.
Which I believe. In the past, before the sorcerer kings enacted "martial law" and rewrote the laws of the lands, reading and writing probably wasn't as rare. So things like mining might have been more commonplace among races capable of hard labor, willing to live in areas where they could mine, and with the resources to use what they extract. A iron mine is priceless to those who can make something from it, but useless to those with absolutely no knowledge on how to turn it into a benefit. You can't eat rocks, for instance.
Why the metal was hidden by the SK's is something to speculate on. One of my old buddies suggested that maybe it is more of a twist on a "traditional" dragon concept -- they are hoarding it, with no real explanation that even they can find within themselves for it. They just have taken the metal, hidden it, and refuse to reveal it to protect their dragon hoards. Something like a compulsary action they do.
I just think it's easier to control a populace when they have no weapons, or inferior weapons. Yes, a shotgun can be useful, but not against a machine gun in most situations. A nomadic tribe with bone, wood and stone weapons aren't much of a threat to a military unit with iron equipment. A city wide rebellion is a serious threat, but when the sorcerer king's army is armed with superior gear to that of the rebellion, then the threat is reduced significantly.
I personally think that there are many mineral deposits in the tyr region (not considering other places) just waiting to be harvested. The problem is, not many know how, or have the correct tools, or have the means to refine the raw ore, or have the manpower to locate and secure a site, work the mine, extract the ore, ship it, refine it and then secure the finished product from watching eyes. All that assumes they have the ability to locate those mineral deposits in the first place, which I assume require magic of some sort, since technology is outlawed.
Then I consider the consequences of having such a resource. If you're just a community of people, the merchant houses will enslave you and take the mine. If you're a merchant house, the sorcerer kings will turn you into a criminal and seize the land. Those are only two risks among many, many possibilities.
Keeping it a secret could be possible. But when people start trading or traveling and outsiders get a look at the metal, they might be able to tell it didn't come from the normal places. Questions get asked and it all falls down because eventually, the wrong people would learn of it and decide to discover the truth themselves.
I am not an expert but I did read up on a lot of sites about mining for various reasons. Medieval technology, and older, could only harvest a "pure" vein. In other words, if there is a vein of iron (or gold or silver or copper or whatever), they could and did mine it. But, there are a lot of materials that are in the rock itself. In that case, you have to have knowledge of smelting, and the ability to make a hot enough fire, to be able to extract what you are going after. So, it's been my thought that most of the metal of Athas is with the rock and needs to be extracted and they don't know how to do that anymore. That's what makes the Tyrian mine so valuable, it's a "pure" vein they can use right away.
I don't know if they specifically say it, but in Deadwood, with the miners, the find was big because it was also "pure" veins that were easily pulled out and no smelting was needed.
turlough
A couple of things:
First of all, as far as "realistic" scenarios go, I agree with the idea that the pure veins tend to be, with the exception of the Tyrian iron mines, essentially tapped out for both Green Age and Cleansing Wars manufacturing. Most of the metal left in the ground is going to be spread out and difficult to extract deposits beyond the technological means of the overwhelming majority of Athasians.
However...I will say it seems entirely possible that the world is, in fact, now a metal-poor world. Athas is actively engaged with the metaphysical. The sorcerer-monarchs have been directly tapping in to raw elemental power. The Plane of Water (or, now, the water portion of the Elemental Chaos) has been utterly ravaged, as has the rest of the elemental planes. Air is either stagnant or bitterly strong. Earth is depleted of life-sustaining properties and possibly metal along with other "rich" properties of earth. fire has little to no fuel to sustain it. The metaphysical, on Athas, has a very REAL and profounf impact on the world itself. Therefore, I see nothing inconsistent with stating that the world is indeed metal-poor now, which breaks OUR laws of physics, but not Athasian.
However...I will say it seems entirely possible that the world is, in fact, now a metal-poor world. Athas is actively engaged with the metaphysical. The sorcerer-monarchs have been directly tapping in to raw elemental power. The Plane of Water (or, now, the water portion of the Elemental Chaos) has been utterly ravaged, as has the rest of the elemental planes. Air is either stagnant or bitterly strong. Earth is depleted of life-sustaining properties and possibly metal along with other "rich" properties of earth. fire has little to no fuel to sustain it. The metaphysical, on Athas, has a very REAL and profounf impact on the world itself. Therefore, I see nothing inconsistent with stating that the world is indeed metal-poor now, which breaks OUR laws of physics, but not Athasian.
In other words, "A wizard did it".
1) Athas, unlike Earth, has "so-uts", they EAT metal they actively attac; and destroy buildings and metal
In my verison of Athas, I take this ot mean they were engineered bioweapons, weapons of "scorched Earth", to destory the very foundations of an enemy's civilization.
but, they got out of control and those and other horrors destoryed much of what once existed
acid vs iron = useless deposits of iron salts all over.
2) I take it that Athas is ANCIENT, incredibly old, millions of years of civilization has mined out nealry all veins of ore.
see Clark Ashton Smith's "Zothique" for ideas on such
i don't use the "Official" history which I hate.
3) the sea beds are filled with silt...it kills you...so whatever's there you can't get to.
4) Geologist, ok, why is the planet Mars red? Think about it... ;)
5) Just because there maybe iron, doesn't mean it exists in ways you can actually exploit it
Without a hell of a lot of effort and vast modern machinery, "red deserts" are useless to folk without walking draglines and blast furnaces
metallic iron doens't exist on Earth except form meteorites. it reacts too readily. other metals are often associated with vulcanism, such as gold, and gold can appear along with iron pyrites in quartz (gold and fools gold)
6) Most of the huge iron ore deposit son Earth are the result of a specific chemical reaction in the Seas when our planet was very young.
this may not have occured on Athas.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banded_iron_format...
Banded iron formations (also known as banded ironstone formations or BIFs) are a distinctive type of rock often found in primordial (Precambrian) sedimentary rocks. The structures consist of repeated thin layers of iron oxides, either magnetite (Fe3O4) or hematite (Fe2O3), alternating with bands of iron-poor shale and chert. Some of the oldest known rock formations, formed over 3,700 million years ago, include banded iron layers,[1] and the banded layers are a common feature in sediments for much of the Earth's early history. The formations are abundant around the time of the Great oxygenation event,[2], and become less common after 1.8 Ga.[citation needed] The reappearance of BIF conditions at 1,900 million years ago,[3] and in association with Snowball Earth 750 million years ago,[4] is problematic to explain (see below).
The total amount of oxygen locked up in the banded iron beds is estimated to be perhaps twenty times the volume of oxygen present in the modern atmosphere. Banded iron beds are an important commercial source of iron ore, such as the Pilbara region of Western Australia and the Animikie Group in Minnesota.
7) Iron amounts on Athas maybe different, it maybe rare, it maybe locked mostly in the core more so than Earth.
in my homebrew non-athas world I have many rare minerals not found on Earth, I see no reason why that can't be true of Athas as well: metal maybe rare, but unique forms of crystal maybe common
PS, I am geology fan ;)
All the iron that was near enough to the surface to be easily mined was mined long ago and used in ruinous wars. It has since oxidized! Now, there is not enough left to mine more. It is sort of like the trees on Rapa Nui... eventually, if you're foolhardy, you chop down the last one. And then that's it... there aren't ever going to be any more.
It goes with the ecological theme of Athas, I think. There isn't any to be had because you used everything you had for something that was ultimately a short-sighted waste, and now there isn't any more of it. Tough luck.
Of course, I also like the idea of Athas that the core area (the area that has been detailed) is the last area left of humanoid habitation. Like Smith's Zothique as the Last Continent of Man. This is it: the humanoid races are almost done. They have a little fight left in them, but this is their last hurrah. In a few millenia at most, or a few centuries perhaps, there will be nothing left of them but bleached bones and crumbling monuments. It's like Ozymandias but the traveler is some bug dude.