How would this affect the Dark Sun setting in the large scheme of things?
First, I can see the forging metal wares would be a lucrative, but rare trade. The process for forging metal weapons, for example, would require some amount of water (if I am correct) for cooling the metal (which would be expensive in and of itself). Metal armor would not really be an issue as it would still be too hot to wear.
Additionally, the materials themselves would be exceedingly rare (which would open some new adventure possibilities when a new source location was discovered for mining).
I could see metal blacksmiths being pretty much non-existent in the smaller towns outside of the main cities. Even in the 7 cities themselves, they would not be to numerous simply because thier skills would be so highly coveted, they would be swept into the emply of the SK's (aside from a few individual exceptions not wanting to be beholden to anyone, or perhaps being a member of the Vield Alliance).
Still, there would be exceptions to be found in the marketplaces, most notably, I could see each of the major Merchant Houses maintaining a least one blacksmith.
As for the metal items themselves, I would have them available for purchase to any PC at 3x the cost listed in the PHB, more or less depending on how rare such items are. Armor would be unattainable for the most part as there would be no reason to forge it (items discovered in the wastes would be exceptions to this, but I'm not addressing those).
So a PC could purchase an obsidian longsword at the cost listed or a steel one at 3x the cost. The obsidian version would be subject to whatever breakage rules were in play, the steel one would not.
Thoughts on any of this? How would this affect the economy and the setting as a whole?
Regarless, in the end, I don't know that it would make any huge effct on the game game or theme/setting.
Ugh, maybe a bad thread? heh, heh!
There is some metal, but since it seems to be equivalent to around +2 in terms of enchantment, only high heroic level and paragon/epic level NPC's would have metal objects. Not even all of the lower level ones. So, basically higher ranking nobility and templars might have metal weapons.
I think the rarity is a bit overstated in terms of d&d campaigns at higher levels, since the perspective is more from the side of the common folk and (former) slaves who really don't have access to any metal at all - so heroic characters would be closer to this point when they start out.
What's a good markup? If x3 is too low, what would you guys recommend?
Also, from a DM standpoint, if my players were carrying around an abundance of metal on their bodies (swords, shields, platemail, etc) I'd expect them to be ambushed by just about anyone desperate enough to try (so, almost everyone in Dark Sun).
3. Metal is scarce.
Most arms and armor are made of bone, stone, wood,and other such materials. Mail or plate armor exists only in the treasuries of the sorcerer-kings. Steel blades are almost priceless, weapons that many heroes never see during their lifetimes.
(pretty sure this quote is fair use, if not mods please feel free to remove)
Bold-facing mine. I've gotta think that if "steel blades are almost priceless" and something that many heroes "never see during their lifetimes," metal is more than exceptionally rare, it's nigh impossible to obtain.
Of course, everyone's free to decide how to run their own campaign, but if we're talking about how the core rules envisions the abundance of metal, it seems to be scarce in the extreme.
From page 4 of the DSCG:
3. Metal is scarce.
Most arms and armor are made of bone, stone, wood,and other such materials. Mail or plate armor exists only in the treasuries of the sorcerer-kings. Steel blades are almost priceless, weapons that many heroes never see during their lifetimes.
(pretty sure this quote is fair use, if not mods please feel free to remove)
Bold-facing mine. I've gotta think that if "steel blades are almost priceless" and something that many heroes "never see during their lifetimes," metal is more than exceptionally rare, it's nigh impossible to obtain.
Of course, everyone's free to decide how to run their own campaign, but if we're talking about how the core rules envisions the abundance of metal, it seems to be scarce in the extreme.
Thanks for the input Mox. However, yes, I'm aware of that from the RAW.
What I'm talking about is a "what if". What if you loosened up on the rarity just a bit to make metal items hard to come by, but still attainable (though exceedingly expensive).
Thus why I was working on a multiplier system (3x, 4x, 5x...whatever...the cost as listed in PHBs). Even if it's just "by appointment" as atomic pointed out.
Just throwing stuff out there to get feedback really, cuz in the large scheme, it;s however you want to run "your" DS.
My campaign hasn't actually had to deal with the issue yet, because none of them have ever seen metal. Right now the players have agreed to go after a certain bad guy because of the rumor that he carries a silver piece minted back in the time that was, for good luck. Never mind the goods he has stashed in his hideout, they've agreed to hand those over to the trading house that's hired them to go after this guy. They just want the silver piece.
After many a campaign where we hardly bothered to count silver pieces any more, it's incredibly satisfying to see the glint in the players' eyes as they eagerly discuss how they're going to spend their silver piece at the conclusion of the encounter. (of course, finding a buyer will present problems as well...)
if a gp weights 0,1 lb
then a 10lb sword would cost 100gp
EDIT: that is the price in TYR region, the farther you go the pricey it gets. Not linear though, just as much as my gut usually tells me
Yep, no argument here. I was just replying to the seeming ambiguity of how rare metal actually is in the published rules. I'm a big fan of making published worlds your own.
My campaign hasn't actually had to deal with the issue yet, because none of them have ever seen metal. Right now the players have agreed to go after a certain bad guy because of the rumor that he carries a silver piece minted back in the time that was, for good luck. Never mind the goods he has stashed in his hideout, they've agreed to hand those over to the trading house that's hired them to go after this guy. They just want the silver piece.
After many a campaign where we hardly bothered to count silver pieces any more, it's incredibly satisfying to see the glint in the players' eyes as they eagerly discuss how they're going to spend their silver piece at the conclusion of the encounter. (of course, finding a buyer will present problems as well...)
OK, that sounds cool. See, that's what I love about the DS setting. Money becomes a big player once again. It's a totally different feel. At least in the heroic tier. Not sure how the setting will feel at the paragon and epics tiers, but I don't plan on my game going beyind about 12th level anyway (when I get a chance to run it, lol).
An object made of metal weighting the same as a GP equals a Goldpiece in marquet price
if a gp weights 0,1 lb
then a 10lb sword would cost 100gp
EDIT: that is the price in TYR region, the farther you go the pricey it gets. Not linear though, just as much as my gut usually tells me
Well that's roughly a multiplier of x6 then. That's sounds like a decent rule. Maybe x5 the listed cost in gold in Tyer, then it goes up the further from Tyer you are?
again, tossing things against the wall to see what sticks.
I would not allow a PC to purchase a "steel" weapon.It's only a reward/treasure item IMG. IMG, steel doesn't rust like normal iron weapons do in darksun and they don't break like normal iron weapons do. Steel is incredibly rare IMG in that only the player characters will ever own steel weapons beyond special npcs. (like the SKs elite and so on)
Iron IMG isn't nearly as rare as steel. Tribal leaders, warlords and other important individuals will often have an iron weapon or piece of iron equipment to show their status, as they not only have iron in their possession, but are powerful/strong/cunning/clever enough to have kept it.
Bronze, copper and other "softer" metal equipment/weapons are only slightly more common IMG than iron equipment.
Basically, I break it down like this. In heroic, the players will be using wood, bone, stone and obsidian the most. At the higher heroic levels (7-10) metal items begin to appear and by mid to late paragon, everyone should have iron equipment of some kind. By epic, metal is no longer an issue and each player has steel weapons with masterwork armor. Everything will be magical at this point. Whether psionic, primal or arcane.
As for pricing, I'v not even worried about that. As a player, I'd hire a small army of warriors and psionicists rather than buy a single iron weapon. As a DM, I make sure my players will get nice loot as treasure. If a player has a level 14 magic item on his/her wishlist, it might end up being iron or steel or petrified wood.
I mean, who's going to have X6-X10 the normal price of an item to buy it in the first place? If my total monetary treasure is X by level 10 (total saved money) and that level 10 metal weapon costs X+6, then it's basically pointless as I'll not be able to afford it for many more levels, by which time that weapon might not be as effective as it would have been.
IMHO, greatly overpricing metal weapons is a mistake if you want players to actually buy them. If that's the case, then use them as rewards for minor/major quests or entire adventures.
I would not allow a PC to purchase a "steel" weapon.It's only a reward/treasure item IMG. IMG, steel doesn't rust like normal iron weapons do in darksun and they don't break like normal iron weapons do. Steel is incredibly rare IMG in that only the player characters will ever own steel weapons beyond special npcs. (like the SKs elite and so on)
Iron IMG isn't nearly as rare as steel. Tribal leaders, warlords and other important individuals will often have an iron weapon or piece of iron equipment to show their status, as they not only have iron in their possession, but are powerful/strong/cunning/clever enough to have kept it.
Bronze, copper and other "softer" metal equipment/weapons are only slightly more common IMG than iron equipment.
Basically, I break it down like this. In heroic, the players will be using wood, bone, stone and obsidian the most. At the higher heroic levels (7-10) metal items begin to appear and by mid to late paragon, everyone should have iron equipment of some kind. By epic, metal is no longer an issue and each player has steel weapons with masterwork armor. Everything will be magical at this point. Whether psionic, primal or arcane.
As for pricing, I'v not even worried about that. As a player, I'd hire a small army of warriors and psionicists rather than buy a single iron weapon. As a DM, I make sure my players will get nice loot as treasure. If a player has a level 14 magic item on his/her wishlist, it might end up being iron or steel or petrified wood.
I mean, who's going to have X6-X10 the normal price of an item to buy it in the first place? If my total monetary treasure is X by level 10 (total saved money) and that level 10 metal weapon costs X+6, then it's basically pointless as I'll not be able to afford it for many more levels, by which time that weapon might not be as effective as it would have been.
IMHO, greatly overpricing metal weapons is a mistake if you want players to actually buy them. If that's the case, then use them as rewards for minor/major quests or entire adventures.
Duely noted Duke. It's not so much that I'd want the items to be available for the PC as it is just setting the standard for the world (so to speak).
By this measure, an unenchanted steel weapon would cost 9,000.
An object made of metal weighting the same as a GP equals a Goldpiece in marquet price
if a gp weights 0,1 lb
then a 10lb sword would cost 100gp
EDIT: that is the price in TYR region, the farther you go the pricey it gets. Not linear though, just as much as my gut usually tells me
Well that's roughly a multiplier of x6 then. That's sounds like a decent rule. Maybe x5 the listed cost in gold in Tyer, then it goes up the further from Tyer you are?
again, tossing things against the wall to see what sticks.
I'm sorry, i was wrong:
1gp equals 1/50 lb
so a sword weighting 10lbs would cost 500gp. If you put forging costs on top of it (x1,5), the same sword would cost 750gp PLUS the cost of an enchanted weapon of at least +3 quality. (because lower lvl steel weapons have ridiculous ammounts of durability in Athas, maybe due to its sun, or its heat, or the all consuming magic that swirls around here and there)
9750gp a sword.