I've got to run off to work, but I noticed one mistake.
Avangion Metamorphosis VIII gives a natural armor bonus to AC, but it looks like it should be a deflection bonus like all the other levels.
More later.
I do have a few comments, however.
The Metapotency ability states:
" The avangion chooses a metapsionic feat and a metapsionic power it possesses that grant the same effect on numeric variables, e.g. Extend Spell and Extend Power, and gains synergistic bonuses."
...but uses a metapsionic feat and a metamagic feat as examples...is this an error? :P
also, in regards to the Preserver Metamorphosis V spell, it says:
"The avangion can also no longer wield hand held weapons or make standard unarmed attacks."
...the question is, can they still make touch attacks? I'm of the mind that this should be clarified within the rule set.
Looks sweet all-'round, but of course I've got comments/suggestions :D :
1) Some rewriting needs to be done on wording and such, the intro text could definitely be more "solid"...at least IMO.
2) Split up the development DC modifiers for each specific item rather than grouping them (IE "SR/PR +X DC, charisma bonus +Y DC, etc.)
3) Specify what type of special ability (supernatural, spell-like, extraordinary) levitate and the aura abilities are. Although I'm assuming they're supernatural, levitate might be better as extaordinary (simply to prevent the avangion from flopping around like a fish out of water on the ground every time someone decides to put up an antimagic field).
4) The ray of enfeeblement aura needs to be worded better (does it automatically affect every evil creature in the radius? At what caster level? Is it supernatural or spell-like? Etc.).
...I like how you chose aberration as the type, too. After I was boo'ed for suggesting it all those months ago.
Looks good all around, my only comments/suggestions is that the stat increases seem a little low despite that they have other things that make up for that, especially on the Wis and Dex side. Cha could use a slight boost too IMO, but I'm more worried about seeing a better boost to Wis and Dex since those two stats, along with Cha, are the more important stats for a Avangion.
Might be a good idea to give lesser globe of invulnerability in the spell before they get the better version, or maybe two spells before that, whatever fits, just seems more realisitic to me.
Woot!
Looks sweet all-'round, but of course I've got comments/suggestions :D :
1) Some rewriting needs to be done on wording and such, the intro text could definitely be more "solid"...at least IMO.
2) Split up the development DC modifiers for each specific item rather than grouping them (IE "SR/PR +X DC, charisma bonus +Y DC, etc.)
3) Specify what type of special ability (supernatural, spell-like, extraordinary) levitate and the aura abilities are. Although I'm assuming they're supernatural, levitate might be better as extaordinary (simply to prevent the avangion from flopping around like a fish out of water on the ground every time someone decides to put up an antimagic field).
4) The ray of enfeeblement aura needs to be worded better (does it automatically affect every evil creature in the radius? At what caster level? Is it supernatural or spell-like? Etc.).
...I like how you chose aberration as the type, too. After I was boo'ed for suggesting it all those months ago.
hehe yeah yeah I know I made some mistakes on the formatting and wording.... I will take care of them for the next incarnation. I was updating old versions as we went and missed a few things (like the bad wording in the psionic enchantment section and the missing of the natural armor refference instead of deflection. *grin* guess I am not pefect after all *sob*
1. yep need to do a rewrite on some of it but we really wanted to get a playtest version out.... a beta test if you will... we expected bugs.... *looks at Terminus Vortexa and grins*
2. the thing on that is that the combined ones are ones that are using other seeds.... so there is a combined DC modifier for them. This will make more sense when we release the metamorphosis seed.
3. good point. the aura is supernatural. the levitation is psionic based though as far as I know.... not sure if it would be considered supernatural or as a psi like ability, personally I preffer psilike, but I will discuss it with the board when we combine all the feedback.
4. the ray of enfeeblement is an addon to the normal aura so it would be supernatural and effects all creatures in it. I would say the caster level of all aspects of the aura is the caster level of the Avangion. I will verify this with the board and we will update this.
Actually the type is only a temp measure while we get feedback from the boards on what everyone think fits. we have several ones that have been discussed and I will post them all below so that we can discuss the pros and cons of them.
I can't remember what type I was for originally but Aberation seems to fit now that I have looked at it. Much better than Outsider IMO anyways.
Looks good all around, my only comments/suggestions is that the stat increases seem a little low despite that they have other things that make up for that, especially on the Wis and Dex side. Cha could use a slight boost too IMO, but I'm more worried about seeing a better boost to Wis and Dex since those two stats, along with Cha, are the more important stats for a Avangion.
Might be a good idea to give lesser globe of invulnerability in the spell before they get the better version, or maybe two spells before that, whatever fits, just seems more realisitic to me.
I agree the stats are a little low, unless we add in other features. Think of this as more of a starting point for what we are going to add in.
The lesser globe is a interesting idea and that might be something to do. definately another thing to discuss in the bureau. thank you.
I think maybe there should be something worked into the Metamorphosis spells that negate all those strength bonuses gained from size and convert them to Intelligence bonuses, instead. I don't understand why there is a bonus to Charisma, when the primary ability modifier for Psions and Wizards is Int. Other than that, I like this incarnation of the Avangion quite a bit.
Charisma represents inner power as well as dealing with people.... and the fact that avangions seem to exude that.... this fits. Plus the special abilities should be charisma based as that is standard for special abilities on creatures.
Though I do think a int boost would be nice for them too.
The Avangion should have an ability similar to All Out Attack (Minus the physical attack). It seems unbalanced that a Dragon can make more use of their powers and spells per round than an Avangion. And, in keeping with the whole Defender of the Land and Plants type theme,I think they should have some kind of ability that lets them counterspell as a free action without preparing an action ahead of time.
Actually in the bureau we are discussing addons that make them more in tune power wise, though in a different way to dragons.
things like perhaps the damage reduction being x/- instead of having a type so it always takes effect.
And possibly having the avangions gain actual levels in the spellcasting and manfesting classes at alternating levels instead of just caster level and manfester level. (gaining the lesser caster level or manifester level boost on levels were they do not gain a level in the spellcasting/manfesting classes.) This would mean they are more focused on the magic and psionic vs the physical vs the dragons.
Okay here were some of the options we have been looking at on the type for avangions:
Aberration
Outsider
Fey
Dragon
Advanced being (in other words create a new type.)
Another option is to use one of the above and then add an advanced being subtype.
Each has their own advantages and disadvantages which I would be more than happy to discuss with people.
Outsider seems to me to be the best fit, because an avangion IMHO has no seperate body and soul, they are as one, just like an Outsider. I say this because they are able to tap into an internal reservoir of magical energy, and use it to cast spells, just like an outsider with spell-like abilities. Plus they are a more spiritual being than a Dragon. As far as gaining actual spellcaster\ manifester levels, I think that each level should alternate between actual levels and effective levels. Straight up real levels is a little unbalanced, in my opinion. I also think damage reduction x\- is the best way to go. It gives them an edge against the physical attacks of the Dragon.
Aaahhhh the outsider type. This was one we looked at rather closely actually but it has several problems with using it for Avangions.
First I do have to correct two misperceptions you stated though.
First outsiders with the native subtype (which by definition an Avangion would have to have unless they were actually from another plane entirely) do have a seperate body and soul as they can be raise, reincarnated, or ressurected.
Outsiders do not tap into an internal resivior of energy for their powers. Outsider by definition gain their powers from their link to other planes.
An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane.]
in addition:
Native outsiders, while they cannot be dismissed by spells that send them back to their native planes, can be targetted by banishment this is actually spelled out in several of the rulebook (easiest to get it from is the forgotten realms campaign books and every book including the native outsider races for pc races thereafter.)
Second there was no links of the Avangions to other planes other than a very tennuous link in the last spell, but it never stated where the Avangions went. So making them outsiders that draw their power/nature form another plane is making a massive change to the fluff and nature of them.
Remember Avangions were masters of preserver magic, which is based on life energy. and life energy in Dark Sun is intrisicly linked to the material plane, not any other plane. (which is why we considered fey as an option actually as that can be a race linked to the natural world.)
but these were just a few of the arguements going back and forth over the last month or so trying to tack down the "temporary type" for the Avangions while so we could see if there was more input that could be found from the boards. We value everyones opinions and want to make sure we have not overlooked anything.
Btw one of the reasons we descided on Aberration has to do with the description from the monster manual on the Aberration type. It seems to fit the mindset and form of something making this kind of massive physical and spiritual change quite nicely.
Also note it might even be possible to have the Avangions be changed to Aberration by the first spell and changed into a more fitting type on the final spell (which may include outisder given the component from the final spell where they disappear for parts unknown for 2d12 months. Or could even be Fey, though we are looking at that more for the spirits of the land at this point.)
On the gaining spellcasting/manifesting I was reffering to having it state the following in alternating order:
+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 manifester level of existing manifesting class
+1 caster level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing manifesting class
Note after further research we do not have to list "effective" in the description as caster level and level are 2 entirely different things. We will of course have to put the additional wording in the description to specify that when gaining the level in the existing classes that no additional bonuses of the classes are gained save the spellcasting/manifesting, spells/powers known, spells per day/power points. but that is standard wording.
I definately agree on the damage reduction.
All in all, aside from any Type issues, if you include the alternating levels thing like in your previous post, do the Str to Int swap, and work in an Avangion version of All Out Attack (Maybe just grant Quicken Spell and Multispell/Multipower as class features or bonus feats?) I think the Avangion would be just about perfect.
I agree with everything you said, and thank you for correcting me on the outsider thing. The possibility of them being typed a Fey, though, just kind of makes me shudder. I realize in some lines of thought it makes a little sense, but the thought of the almighty, bad-a** avangion being lumped in with Pixies and Sprites and such just doesn't seem right. It seems to me, after a little consideration, that they should be Native Outsiders with a special quality that prevents Banishment from working on them. Also, any thought on working some kind of STR penalty and INT bonus into the metamorphosis? An avangion doesn't really require all that strength they gain from getting bigger,So there's something on the order of 32 points of Str the Avangion gains and will probably never use, which could be converted into a LOT of Int points that the Avangion would be able to use for a vastly increased PP reserve and much more powerful and difficult to resist spells. It woud be a perfect synergy with their extremely (and quite properly so) high SR/PR. And doing this is the only way to offset the huge advantage the Dragon has in physical attacks, as the avangion has not a single one.
All in all, aside from any Type issues, if you include the alternating levels thing like in your previous post, do the Str to Int swap, and work in an Avangion version of All Out Attack (Maybe just grant Quicken Spell and Multispell/Multipower as class features or bonus feats?) I think the Avangion would be just about perfect.
Hehe you have pretty much te same feeling on making them fey as most of us in the bureau do. Though fey will likely fit best for the Spirits of the Land. Plus having the arcane advanced beings being the same type as one of the divine advanced beings leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
On the Native Outsiders issue. The main thing that had us looking at outsiders so hard was due to the angel subtype, Which if you ignore the good connotations, has a similiar aura and other traits and fits rather well. The problem is that the very nature of the outsider is pretty much the opposite of the arcane advanced beings. Both dragons and avangions have their powers firmly rooted in the Material plane, unlike the divine casters. The arcane ones draw their energy from living things from the material, the divines are linked to the other planes for powers (specifically elemental, either directly or inderectly) Outsiders (even native ones) are intrisicly linked to the other planes and draw their power from them... so even making the change to remove the banishment issue does not make them fit. Though making a new type that is based off the idea of outsider, just not linked to the planes, would fit really well. Which was the idea behind making a new advanced being type.
The reasoning behind Aberration came from this.
Aberration Type: An aberration has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three.
All three of these fit both the dragons and avangions. They are not natural creatures, but more "insane' mages that alter themselves through psionics and magic to become something more.
Add to this there is already a race that is very similiar to the beginnings of the dragon and avangions in the Expanded Psionic Handbook... the first time I saw the Elans, I thought that this was a big step towards creating the Dragons and Avangions.
On the switching part of the Str bonus into Int bonus, I have been thinking about it and how to implement it. The easist way to do this would likely just be making a option in the metamorphosis seed to translate the physical into the mental stats. Not adding to them but a conversion. Which really fits for the seed. I would really have to look at it and go over it with the bureau before implementing something like that as it makes a significant difference.
quicken, multispell and the like are already options on the bonus feats they get.... and there was nothing in the 2ed that showed them doing multispell on the avangions.... however if we boost the int that much, you are talking about a really massive bonus on the spells which makes a huge advantage vs the dragons on spellcasting. The actual increase in level of existing classes for spellcasting/manifesting vs just caster level already gives them a huge boost.
Though to be honest I have suggestions on both dragons and avangions of my own which I have not even shown to the bureau do to the massive changes they would cause on the dragons and the two really need to be equal. That is why I incorporated them into my own version. (including a more streamlined version of psionic enchantments, dragon magic, and avangion magic.) I really want to avoid having to totally revamp our dragons at this point.
I liked the idea of "revitalize", very creative indeed. I wish the ability "revitalize" could be powered with XP points too (instead of Energy Reserve only), so avangions could continue the task of restoration even if their reserve points runs out.
Addionally, I would like to point out that there's no need to balance Avangion's combat/magic firepower with the Dragon abilities, such as giving an similar version of All Out Attack. No!
Avangions are supposed to be weeker indeed. Stronger defenses, but weeker. Restoration and enlightenment, that's the avangion's path.
I support Terminus Vortexa's suggestion of channeling the Avangion's "size increase STR bonus" to other special abilities, more options, not necessarily Wis/Cha bonus only.
As final point, maybe I´m the only one here, but since the beginning of Athas.org I always heard that Avangions are supposed to be Fey Type. I preffer Avangions as Fey. Make Spirits of the land outsiders (or, in las case, aberrations).
Thanks for the good job!
Very good job, congratulations.
I liked the idea of "revitalize", very creative indeed. I wish the ability "revitalize" could be powered with XP points too (instead of Energy Reserve only), so avangions could continue the task of restoration even if their reserve points runs out.
Ahhh but notice, the Avangions can replenish the reserve by draining magic items..... so they can continue the task afterwards... just going to cost them in treasure. Also the reserve represents a pool of energy they have built up that they can use in place of exp... not actual exp.... so revitalize is drawing from the pool of life energy not their actual exp.... this is why we did not allow for that.
Addionally, I would like to point out that there's no need to balance Avangion's combat/magic firepower with the Dragon abilities, such as giving an similar version of All Out Attack. No!
Avangions are supposed to be weeker indeed. Stronger defenses, but weeker. Restoration and enlightenment, that's the avangion's path.
Agreed we are not trying to boost their combat stats.... but boosting their spellcasting ability and making them stronger magically so they can stand toe to toe with a dragon (not close combat mind you, but using spells/psionics while letting their DR and defenses keep them alive.)
I support Terminus Vortexa's suggestion of channeling the Avangion's "size increase STR bonus" to other special abilities, more options, not necessarily Wis/Cha bonus only.
Agreed this may be something to work into the metamorphosis seed as it really fits with the idea of it.
As final point, maybe I´m the only one here, but since the beginning of Athas.org I always heard that Avangions are supposed to be Fey Type. I preffer Avangions as Fey. Make Spirits of the land outsiders (or, in las case, aberrations).
Thanks for the good job!
Actually the discussions of the Avangions have mainly gone through phases of wether they should be fey or outsiders on the boards. But when we actually sat down and look at the definitions of the 2 both were found wanting.
Outsiders mainly for the reasons I gave above.
Fey however have a different problems (besides the connotations which annoy alot of the players due to linking them to sprites and the like) ... Fey are natural creatures that are linked directly to nature, or some other force or place.... this fits really well for spirits of the land which are linked to a specific locations and to nature... as well as the fact that they more join with the existing spirit than actually evolve into it, so they become something greater.
Avangions however (as well as dragons) are NOT natural creatures. They are literally insane (at the very least obsessive, if not worse issues) masters of psionics and arcane magic (which is the unnatural draining of life to cause a magical effect.). Now while this would qualify them under the Aberration type, it does not really fit for fey. Thinking of the preservers/defilers of darksun is more like looking at Ur-Priests that use the arcane spell list than normal wizards. They steal power from the source that supports the druids of Athas. They have no link to the world of Athas save what they steal. While a preserver steals less and tries not to hurt the land.... they still steal.
If you notice in our write up of the Avangions, we even put limits on what they can replenish.... they can use the pool they have built up over time of stolen energy.... or they can steal the energy already stolen and put into magic items to try and replenish an area.
However Spirits of the Land are more Fey in the classical sense.... creature who through their sharing connection with nature are imbued by nature/a location to provide more in service to the land.
Native outsiders, while they cannot be dismissed by spells that send them back to their native planes, can be targetted by banishment this is actually spelled out in several of the rulebook (easiest to get it from is the forgotten realms campaign books and every book including the native outsider races for pc races thereafter.)
According to the SRD banishment targets extraplanar creatures, which has no particular relationship to being an outsider. I don't have any FR books, but the core rules don't allow you to banish a native outsider from its home plane.
Not that I'm advocating for the outsider type. I think aberration is a nice choice.
Ahhh but notice, the Avangions can replenish the reserve by draining magic items..... so they can continue the task afterwards... just going to cost them in treasure. Also the reserve represents a pool of energy they have built up that they can use in place of exp... not actual exp.... so revitalize is drawing from the pool of life energy not their actual exp.... this is why we did not allow for that.
Why can't they replenish the reserve directly from their XP? This whole magic item destruction thing is great when the items are cast by someone else, but the mechanism is rather bizzare when an Avangion uses his own XP to craft items - only to consume them afterwards (for the XP to be transferred into the energy reserve).
According to the SRD banishment targets extraplanar creatures, which has no particular relationship to being an outsider. I don't have any FR books, but the core rules don't allow you to banish a native outsider from its home plane.
Not that I'm advocating for the outsider type. I think aberration is a nice choice.
Always remmember later books overrule prior books on rules. And the Forgotten realms books in question each time came after the core books (races of faerun for 3.5, campaign book for 3.0) Which means they are considered the updated rulings on the native outsiders. Note also I have not found one refference in any of the books that contradicts this ruling. Only one interpitation of the original spell itself. And by the spell description they would not be effected EXCEPT that in a later book they are specifically included in the spell effect.
Also I think it may have been mentioned in the planar handbook, but I would have to check.
The reasoning behind this is simple though. All outsiders (even native ones) are linked to the energy of another plane. That is per their description. Native ones are born on the material plane... but still linked to another plane. Therefor by definition they would be at least partially extraplanar on any given plane they were ever on. This would explain why they can be targetted by this spell specifically.
Why can't they replenish the reserve directly from their XP? This whole magic item destruction thing is great when the items are cast by someone else, but the mechanism is rather bizzare when an Avangion uses his own XP to craft items - only to consume them afterwards (for the XP to be transferred into the energy reserve).
xp and life energy are two seperate things.... while in item creation it is represented through xp.... it is actually life energy that is the basis of arcane magic in dark sun.... so the pool is a pool of life energy.
the avangions are not just tapping their own life energy by this ability.... they have stored up energy to use. there is a slightly different focus there. Think of it like a car...the reserve is an extra tank of gas they are using instead of draining around them.... it is not that they can use their oil (different type of stuff based on the same chemical just different) or other fluids to run the car.... they just have an extra gas tank.
xp and life energy are two seperate things.... while in item creation it is represented through xp.... it is actually life energy that is the basis of arcane magic in dark sun.... so the pool is a pool of life energy.
the avangions are not just tapping their own life energy by this ability.... they have stored up energy to use. there is a slightly different focus there. Think of it like a car...the reserve is an extra tank of gas they are using instead of draining around them.... it is not that they can use their oil (different type of stuff based on the same chemical just different) or other fluids to run the car.... they just have an extra gas tank.
But let me reiterate my question: There is nothing in the rules preventing the Avangion to craft an item and then consume it in order to replenish the reserve? This is what perhaps a desperate Avangion would so if he had already spent the entire reserve and needed to urgently un-defile some patch of land (which as I understand can only be done using the reserve). Please correct me if I'm wrong.
As far as critiques, most of them have already been addressed in the thread already (wording issues, the natural armor mention, etc) and I do believe the size bonuses to stats are actually impeding to the Avagion as they get no tangible benefits for being bigger (yay, I'm stronger, me and my gossamer wings are going to go lift some rocks with my no limbs). They definitely need Int, Wis and Cha boosts, and corresponding Dex mods to offset the size penalties to Dex. If you're going to be a nearly ethereal arcane/psychic powerhouse of you don't need to be strong enough to lift a dump truck ;)
Can't wait for the revision so we can see how this feedback has effected the class. Thanks guys!
-X
But let me reiterate my question: There is nothing in the rules preventing the Avangion to craft an item and then consume it in order to replenish the reserve? This is what perhaps a desperate Avangion would so if he had already spent the entire reserve and needed to urgently un-defile some patch of land (which as I understand can only be done using the reserve). Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Correct they could use their time and life force combined with mastercrafted items, rituals to imbue life energy, and exotic components to bind more life force into a lifeless object (i.e. create a magic item) and then drain the life force they have imbued into it to replenish their pool....
but note, crafting a magic item takes time and alot of effort and expensive components not just xp.... and then the avangion only gets the xp back from the proccess. So it is a fairly complex proccess to do this.
Your prior question seemed to indicate you did not understand why an Avangion could not just use his xp to immediately replenish the pool without the crafting item step.
The point is this, it is not just the experience that actually makes the item magical in dark sun... the xp is more a measure of how much life energy you can drain from your surroundings to imbue into the item. Therefor that is the amount that you can drain back out. Note you are not actually getting the xp back... but rather an amount of life energy equal to that amount of xp.
The point is this, it is not just the experience that actually makes the item magical in dark sun... the xp is more a measure of how much life energy you can drain from your surroundings to imbue into the item. Therefor that is the amount that you can drain back out. Note you are not actually getting the xp back... but rather an amount of life energy equal to that amount of xp.
I have the same question as megatherion, why can't they just skip the step of making the magic item and use XP directly? If the XP is the measure of the life energy required, then why should they have to spend the gold/ceramic and time when that has nothing to do with the life energy involved.
It seems to me that if they are able to take the energy from a magic item which has already been significantly altered from its origin as life energy, they should have a much easier time of just flat out using their own life energy instead.
-snip- they should have a much easier time of just flat out using their own life energy instead.
Which in game terms is any ability score that when drained results in death, or hit points. Experience points do not represent life energy. Its not because a negative energy drain attack robs you of levels that it affects XP, it instead affects HD, which happen to be linked to class levels.
Cold Iron is traditionally the bane of the supporters of Chaos, from Demons to Eldarins
Wile this was appropriate for the Fey type, it feel quite odd for an abberration...
May I suggest to change it to */magic and evil or */magic and metal?
It is like saying a 1 gallon glass jug is a gallon..... no the jug itself is just a container to HOLD a gallon of liquid. The exp point value is like the jug which determines how much life energy must/can be stored in the item at its creation.
And you cannot use the Jug to power the spells, you can only take the life energy stored inside the jug to power them.
In the Preserver Metamorphosis spell description, from stage VII on, the damage reduction becomes */magic and cold iron.
Cold Iron is traditionally the bane of the supporters of Chaos, from Demons to Eldarins
Wile this was appropriate for the Fey type, it feel quite odd for an abberration...
May I suggest to change it to */magic and evil or */magic and metal?
actually we were using specific types of metal to make the DR more effective as the rarer the substance the better it works against most things.... and Avangions are NOT ness good.... so a DR vs evil does not fit at all.
And seeing as we are looking at making the DR typeless (as I have mentioned a few times) the point becomes moot.
actually we were using specific types of metal to make the DR more effective as the rarer the substance the better it works against most things.... and Avangions are NOT ness good.... so a DR vs evil does not fit at all.
And seeing as we are looking at making the DR typeless (as I have mentioned a few times) the point becomes moot.
wile i concord that */evil is not appropriate (neither Avangion nor Dragon even need to be good or evil) i still find cold iron a bit strange, given the rarity of metals in dark sun what are the odds of finding a cold iron weapon? (well, given the LESS devenlopped metallrgy it could be more common than steel weapons)
What if you change it in */magic and obsidian (the defiler trademark)?
Also, I think Avangions should get the anility to use touch spells at a distance for free, as they cannot otherwise use them.
And here's something I just thought of - Does a creature with no hands need to use spell components? If they do, that leads me to the idea that they should get Telekinesis as an at-will ability, again, for free, not as a feat they have to take.
And here's something I just thought of - Does a creature with no hands need to use spell components? If they do, that leads me to the idea that they should get Telekinesis as an at-will ability, again, for free, not as a feat they have to take.
Erk...and what about somatic components?
What's wrong with typeless damage reduction? It is SO appropriate for an Avangion, and a good balance to the fact that they have NO physical attacks whatsoever.
Kind of my argument for it. Believe me, we're talking about this right now, like seker said.
Also, I think Avangions should get the anility to use touch spells at a distance for free, as they cannot otherwise use them.
Good point. Or as an extension of their telekinesis (thought they had it, hmm...)
And here's something I just thought of - Does a creature with no hands need to use spell components? If they do, that leads me to the idea that they should get Telekinesis as an at-will ability, again, for free, not as a feat they have to take.
I think they had it for free in 2e, I'll have to look and see again. But I thought that was one of their little freebies since they, well, otherwise have some difficulties.
After further contemplation, I think that Avangions should not have to use spell components with the exception of very expensive ones or foci at all, because they are drawing on an internal reserve of pure magical life energy, and not borrowing power and shaping it through external means.
After further contemplation, I think that Avangions should not have to use spell components with the exception of very expensive ones or foci at all, because they are drawing on an internal reserve of pure magical life energy, and not borrowing power and shaping it through external means.
After posting I started thinking about this too; I'm inclined to agree with you in some sense or another, although I think a better way to do it would be to remove the bonus feats from the PrC and instead give the class that Epic feat that allows you to use Still Spell "for free" for spell levels 1-3/4-6/7-9 (as you keep getting 'em) - Automatic Still Spell or something like that? Maybe throw Eschew Material Components in there as well, or even make that a class prereq - sorta makes sense, given that you're turning yourself into a creature that is a "magic battery" of sorts. Maybe at level 10 or something even give Ignore Material Components (or whatever the Epic feat is called).
*shrug*
I have the same question as megatherion, why can't they just skip the step of making the magic item and use XP directly? If the XP is the measure of the life energy required, then why should they have to spend the gold/ceramic and time when that has nothing to do with the life energy involved.
It seems to me that if they are able to take the energy from a magic item which has already been significantly altered from its origin as life energy, they should have a much easier time of just flat out using their own life energy instead.
I agree with CSK, since is stated on the Avangion rules:
Avangion Magic (Su): Avangions can choose to power their spells with internal energy rather than plants, when doing so the
“terrain” is treated as fertile. Casting in this way is always considered preserving and subject to all the rules thereof.
Maybe you could rule that after his energy reserve runs out, the avagion may spend his own internal energy, represented in that act by xp points, to revitalize the land.
But keep them coming.Retain Essence (Su): At 1st level an avangion gains the ability to salvage the XP from a magic item and use those points to replenish his energy reserve. The Avangion must spend a day with the magic item. After one day, the item is destroyed and the Avangion adds the XP it took to create the item to his energy reserve. These points are lost if the Avangion does not use them before gaining his next level in the Avangion PrC. (In the case of a charged item, the Avangion gains the XP cost per the percentage of the charges left. For instance a wand of summon monster IV with only 20 charges left would only be worth 336 XP versus the 840 XP of a fully charged wand of the same type.)
At 3rd level the Avangion can gain the experience used in non epic spells or powers that he counterspells or fails to overcome his SR/PR.
And finally at 7th level the Avangion can actually absorb the experience burned in epic spells if he successfully counters them, using the same rules as draining non-epic spells.
Since the effort seems to be to divorce XP from the energy reserve pool, this ability should probably be reworded so that it's entirely clear that the avangion is not putting actual XP into the reserve pool, but rather a number of points equal to the amount of XP it took to create. A fine point maybe but it could eliminate confusion.
Also I think it's also advisable to reword the abilities gained at 3rd and 7th levels. There it really just sounds like they're gaining experience points, which I doubt is the actual intention.
Something like:
Beginning at 3rd level, whenever an avangion successfully counters a non-epic spell or power with an XP cost, he may add a number of points to his reserve pool equal to the amount of XP spent on the spell or power. Similarly, if a non-epic spell or power with an XP cost is blocked by failing to overcome the avangion's SR/PR, he may add a number of points to his reserve pool equal to the amount of XP spent on the spell or power.
And then something like that for the 7th level power.
Since the effort seems to be to divorce XP from the energy reserve pool, this ability should probably be reworded so that it's entirely clear that the avangion is not putting actual XP into the reserve pool, but rather a number of points equal to the amount of XP it took to create. A fine point maybe but it could eliminate confusion.
Also I think it's also advisable to reword the abilities gained at 3rd and 7th levels. There it really just sounds like they're gaining experience points, which I doubt is not the actual intention.
Something like:
And then something like that for the 7th level power.
Good point on the rewording, I will make sure it is reworded properly to avoid this kind of confusion... I really appreciate you catching that, The ability itself is based off another classes ability and I apparently did not change the wording enough to show the significant differences.
oh and Kelsen, please note the Avangion magic and energy reserve abilities are totally seperate.... the energy reserve is a MUCH more potent spring of stored power than the limmited life force the Avangion uses to power its spells through avangion magic. The energy reserve is more of a vast resevoir that the Avangion fills up as it advances from other sources so that it can force massive amounts of energy into spells when it needs to.
Though note there is a distinct possibilty that we may make feats later for Avangions that might allow them transfer their own exp/life force into their energy reserve.... but such a feat would likely have a cost built into it. Like causes 1 Con burn damage per 100xp transfered into life energy. Or something much worse. After all the dragon does much worse than exp drain when it drains creatures to power its epic spells. And we need to keep balance in mind.
Oh on the still spell and ignore components... I would suggest that instead of putting that in the PrC, we put it in the spells themselves.... it would make more sense there... and with the material components of the spells that would even fit
Oh and Xlor, the telekinesis you were thinking of was the "always flies or floats" (levitate) ability they got in 2nd edition. In your version of the Avangions way back when that you were discussing (back when I was helping you balance your version of the dragons rules wise) you were adding the telekinesis as a natural outlet of the ability from 2nd edition.
Where exactly in the metamorphosis spells do they state if the flying ability is Ex or Su? I'm very concerned about an accidental anitmagic shell sending the avangion flopping down to the ground. Can this be clearly stated in the rules?
I forgot to place the type to each ability in the descriptions, this will be corrected in the next version. the flight ability is Ex... but the levitation ability will be either an always active psilike ability or a Su ability. I will verify this in the bureau.
oh and Kelsen, please note the Avangion magic and energy reserve abilities are totally seperate.... the energy reserve is a MUCH more potent spring of stored power than the limmited life force the Avangion uses to power its spells through avangion magic. The energy reserve is more of a vast resevoir that the Avangion fills up as it advances from other sources so that it can force massive amounts of energy into spells when it needs to.
Thanks for the explanation, now I understand.
Energy reserve seems to be based largely off the artificer ability of the same name. And in that case Energy Reserve is basically just some bonus XP for crafting. You don't have to stop crafting just cause you run out of Energy Reserve.
In every instance for the Avangion, except revitalize, XP and Energy Reserve are interchangeable.
"An Avangion recieves a pool of points he can spend instead of experience points when casting spells (either experience costs on non epic spells or experience burn of an epic spell) or crafting a magic item."
You can choose to spend energy reserve in place of XP for anything you might use XP for. But the way your describing it, Avangions would be better off spending XP for anything they can and then saving their reserves for Revitalize, since they can't use XP for that. This just doesn't make any sense to me and seems to make the Energy Reserve and/or Revitalize less powerful than it ought to be. You'd potentially get to the point where you have Avangions going "Oops I can't un-defile this land. Guess I shouldn't have made so many magic items this level." That just doesn't feel right.
You'd be better off keeping things simple. Allow the avangion to use its Energy Reserve any time it would be burning XP for something. Then give revitalize an XP cost.
As for revitalize, I guess I see it this way. Can Wizard A shoot Gnoll B with a lightning bolt he doesn't have preped, if he is willing to pay some XP? No, so why should he be able to spend it to use a power he has, like revitalize. What is your XP that you can access it to spend? It's mostly for magic items to prevent characters from over-proliferating the world with wands of lightning, and cloaks of charisma. Besides, if one was that keen on using it, and spent XP to suppliment it so heavily, how would one ever get the XP to level up again? At this stage, remember, few things are so challenging anymore, and Avangions are likely to forgo adventuring most of all, for fear of being discovered.
As for revitalize, I guess I see it this way. Can Wizard A shoot Gnoll B with a lightning bolt he doesn't have preped, if he is willing to pay some XP? No, so why should he be able to spend it to use a power he has, like revitalize.
That's because spell slots and XP aren't interchangable.
Reserve points and experience points are, in every situation except revitalize.
Magic Item Crafting Costs: Use XP or Reserve
Non-epic spells with XP costs: Use XP or Reserve
Epic Spell Costs: Use XP or Reserve
Revitalize: Use only Reserve
As many people have point out, you could even make an item, drain its essence and thus convert your XP to reserve points. The only thing that's going on here is that you're essentially charging the Avangion money (and an amount of time) in order to revitalize. It just doesn't fit with the flavor to me.
Even if your Reserve and your XP aren't exactly the same, they're too intertwined for it to make any sense to try to seperate them out.
In my example in my previous post, you have an Avangion who's depleted their reserve through crafting magic items and casting spells. Then they come across a situation where they want to use revitalize. They can't. They could still cast more spells with XP costs or craft additional items, using their own XP, but for some reason they can't revitalize. It really just doesn't make any sense to me.
Oh on the still spell and ignore components... I would suggest that instead of putting that in the PrC, we put it in the spells themselves.... it would make more sense there... and with the material components of the spells that would even fit
Whoops, good point; my mind keeps blurring the distinction between the PrC and the metamorphosis spells, old 2e habits and what-have-you. :D I agree that that'd be a good idea, and in fact adding the acquisition of feats to the metamorphosis seed might be a good idea for reasons beyond that of the avangion; some creatures get bonus feats simply because they are what they are (Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus being the two most common examples I can think of), and given the purpose of the metamorphosis seed I think it'd fit (within limits, of course).
and the protection from draining is a really good idea I will bring that up when I bring up the rest of it.
we considered fast healing on the avangions and the dragons, but from prior discussions this is more likely going to be regulated to feats than core parts of the class/spells. as there was nothing in the prior version of the dragons and avangions that showed all dragons had it or all avangions had it.... only the sorcerer kings/champions seemed to have anything like that.
That's because spell slots and XP aren't interchangable.
Reserve points and experience points are, in every situation except revitalize.
Magic Item Crafting Costs: Use XP or Reserve
Non-epic spells with XP costs: Use XP or Reserve
Epic Spell Costs: Use XP or Reserve
Revitalize: Use only Reserve
As many people have point out, you could even make an item, drain its essence and thus convert your XP to reserve points. The only thing that's going on here is that you're essentially charging the Avangion money (and an amount of time) in order to revitalize. It just doesn't fit with the flavor to me.
Even if your Reserve and your XP aren't exactly the same, they're too intertwined for it to make any sense to try to seperate them out.
In my example in my previous post, you have an Avangion who's depleted their reserve through crafting magic items and casting spells. Then they come across a situation where they want to use revitalize. They can't. They could still cast more spells with XP costs or craft additional items, using their own XP, but for some reason they can't revitalize. It really just doesn't make any sense to me.
Important note here.... and Avangion can NOT use the pool for even half of the things you can use xp for.
Note they only get to use the pool for powering arcane spells (epic and non epic) and creating magic items.
This does not include using it for powering psionics (epic or non epic), making psionic items, leveling, or anything else.... it is a stored amount of life energy only.
While the ability is based mechanically on the artificer it is NOT the same ability. Please note this means you cannot drain psionic powers or items with this ability either.... it only deals with arcane magic. (I need to update the wording in the PrC a bit on this apparently.)
Note they only get to use the pool for powering arcane spells (epic and non epic) and creating magic items.
This does not include using it for powering psionics (epic or non epic), making psionic items, leveling, or anything else.... it is a stored amount of life energy only.
While the ability is based mechanically on the artificer it is NOT the same ability. Please note this means you cannot drain psionic powers or items with this ability either.... it only deals with arcane magic. (I need to update the wording in the PrC a bit on this apparently.)
That is why I asked what I asked. On Athas (at least around the gaming tables) magic/psionic items tend to be called "magic items." Again an old 2ed throw back. It makes sense that it would only be magic, and not psionic items. But then the question (while I hide behind a large rock) is whether or not divine enchanted magic items would be usable, becuase they are not life energy, but extraplanar energy. Also, just to play devils advocate, psionics uses the life energy within yourself to power it, so that could also be considered "life energy," just distilled differently.
I do, however, agree that it should only be magic items, as I like the flavor of that the most. Kind of a swords into plows kinda thing.
That is why I asked what I asked. On Athas (at least around the gaming tables) magic/psionic items tend to be called "magic items." Again an old 2ed throw back. It makes sense that it would only be magic, and not psionic items. But then the question (while I hide behind a large rock) is whether or not divine enchanted magic items would be usable, becuase they are not life energy, but extraplanar energy. Also, just to play devils advocate, psionics uses the life energy within yourself to power it, so that could also be considered "life energy," just distilled differently.
I do, however, agree that it should only be magic items, as I like the flavor of that the most. Kind of a swords into plows kinda thing.
hah... as if hiding behind a rock would protect you from he life draining gifts of a dragon *pulls forth his obsidian orb* (guess you did not know seker is actually a halfling dragon eh?)
Actually in my opinion the ability should only work against arcane magic not divine. But I will need to talk to the bureau about it.
And psionics does not use life energy at all... but rather mental energy, in the form of power points. Note a psionic weilder can use life energy through certain feats to replenish their mental energy, (body fuel being a feat that allows this.) but they do not use it directly normally.
Also limiting it to just arcane magic gives it a good balancing factor so that Avangions don't gain an unmitigated bonus vs all divine epics and against the members of the order. If they could drain powers and psionic items the order would consider all avangions a threat to the order itself and all psionics, vs just a perversion of the purity of psionics.
Actually in my opinion the ability should only work against arcane magic not divine. But I will need to talk to the bureau about it.
I'd say with items this can be difficult to distinguish, unless the aura of the item, or some spell/effect on the item is obviously divine, I would assume it to be arcane. But I agree, I would think it makes more sense to be limited to arcane.
Also limiting it to just arcane magic gives it a good balancing factor so that Avangions don't gain an unmitigated bonus vs all divine epics and against the members of the order. If they could drain powers and psionic items the order would consider all avangions a threat to the order itself and all psionics, vs just a perversion of the purity of psionics.
Agreed.
I mean, I can see where you're going, I just still think that getting to a point where an avangion might go "I can't revitalize cause I made too many items. I can still make more items, just not revitalize." is contrary to the feel of the class.
I definitely agree with the reserve not applying to psionics, but that's a different question really and unrelated to whether avangions should be able to power revitalize from their own "life energy" (i.e. XP).
I still think if "Life Force Energy" (i.e. an avangion's Reserve points) and "XP" are going to be used interchangably for magic items, and epic/non-epic spells then it doesn't make sense to say they're not interchangable for revitalize.
I mean, I can see where you're going, I just still think that getting to a point where an avangion might go "I can't revitalize cause I made too many items. I can still make more items, just not revitalize." is contrary to the feel of the class.
I definitely agree with the reserve not applying to psionics, but that's a different question really and unrelated to whether avangions should be able to power revitalize from their own "life energy" (i.e. XP).
MysticTheurge, I hate to say it but you are mixing and matching terms.... xp never has been the "life force" of living things that is used to power spells in darksun.
The "energy reserve" of an avangion is a reserve of life energy... not exp. It can be used in place of xp when casting spells or making items but that does NOT make it xp. They are not interchangable.... just because one can be used to replace the other in very specific instances, does not make them interchangable
When you make an arcane magical item in darksun you still have to drain life energy to power the item.... we are using the xp cost of the item to represent the container if you will to represent how much energy must be stored in the item to power it. So this is demonstrating how much life energy can be pulled out of the object.
Basically this is like saying a gallon of water vs a gallon of gasoline.... they are both the same amount.... but they are totally different things. both could be use to wet down an area.... but only one can be used to power a normal combustion engine in your average car.
When you make an arcane magical item in darksun you still have to drain life energy to power the item.... we are using the xp cost of the item to represent the container if you will to represent how much energy must be stored in the item to power it. So this is demonstrating how much life energy can be pulled out of the object.
But the Life Energy you use to make a magic item isn't represented by the XP put into it (because XP and Life Energy aren't the same thing) it's represented by the spells you cast to create the item, cause that's what you actually draw life energy for.
If you really want the reserve to be Life Energy and not be equivalent to XP you need to rework what it can be used for. Because as it is now, you have 1 Reserve Point = 1 XP point for one set of things, but not for another set of things. Maybe it would be better if you correlated reserve points and the level of spells used to create a magic item. Though I don't know, really, how you could go about doing that. It would definitely get complicated.
Like I pointed out originally, this ruling encourages the Avangion not to use her reserve for magic items, spells or epic spells because if she runs out of reserve she can't use her class feature revitalize. She's better off always using XP in those cases and keeping her reserve available for use with revitalize. This really weakens the reserve class feature (and/or the revitalize class feature.)
Really, do you guys want there to be situations where the avangion is regretting having spent reserve on magic items or spells when she could have spent XP instead, because now she can't revitalize anything?
Yeap - lazy!
Really, do you guys want there to be situations where the avangion is regretting having spent reserve on magic items or spells when she could have spent XP instead, because now she can't revitalize anything?
*sigh* As I said (and objected!), an Avangion under current rules will have to create magical items and then consume them in order to replenish the reserve for future revitalizations.
Three game balancing factors here:
1. Time required to craft a thing, and thus to transfer XP to Reserve (since no matter what arguments Seker has concerning XP and Reserve not being the same thing an Avangion is basically doing this),
2. Money required to craft the item (and basically wasted money)
3. Availability of appropriate feats - not all avangions have learned to craft items.
The problem is only in the flavor - as it damn doesn't make sense. If the revitalize ability could be used with XP (which in turn could be spent either from reserve or from the main XP pool) then it's be much more simpler and more elegant.
But the Life Energy you use to make a magic item isn't represented by the XP put into it (because XP and Life Energy aren't the same thing) it's represented by the spells you cast to create the item, cause that's what you actually draw life energy for.
If you really want the reserve to be Life Energy and not be equivalent to XP you need to rework what it can be used for. Because as it is now, you have 1 Reserve Point = 1 XP point for one set of things, but not for another set of things. Maybe it would be better if you correlated reserve points and the level of spells used to create a magic item. Though I don't know, really, how you could go about doing that. It would definitely get complicated.
Like I pointed out originally, this ruling encourages the Avangion not to use her reserve for magic items, spells or epic spells because if she runs out of reserve she can't use her class feature revitalize. She's better off always using XP in those cases and keeping her reserve available for use with revitalize. This really weakens the reserve class feature (and/or the revitalize class feature.)
Really, do you guys want there to be situations where the avangion is regretting having spent reserve on magic items or spells when she could have spent XP instead, because now she can't revitalize anything?
Actually a magic item requires more magic than just casting a spell. a scroll uses the same amount as casting a spell once... all others need a heck of alot more life energy to make a magic item. (heck they even require multiple castings of the spells in most cases.)
We could have just as easily have used the the gold value to be what replenished the energy reserve.... but that would have been too powerful. In the past the xp has been a good corrolation for the magic energy/personal energy for item creation, in most campaigns even though they are NOT the same. So the xp value does correlate to the amount of energy placed in a magic item, it just is not the actual energy. So the ability that allows you to drain the life energy in the item, can drain the amount in the item which is equal to the xp value of the item.
And who ever said that an Avangion can only drain his own items..... if an Avangion for instance kills a defiler that has magic items of a defiling nature.... he can drain them and use the energy to replenish their abilities. Plus they can also drain spells that they resist.
Not to mention that the pool fully replenishes to the max for the level when they level.
*sigh* As I said (and objected!), an Avangion under current rules will have to create magical items and then consume them in order to replenish the reserve for future revitalizations.
Three game balancing factors here:
1. Time required to craft a thing, and thus to transfer XP to Reserve (since no matter what arguments Seker has concerning XP and Reserve not being the same thing an Avangion is basically doing this),
2. Money required to craft the item (and basically wasted money)
3. Availability of appropriate feats - not all avangions have learned to craft items.
The problem is only in the flavor - as it damn doesn't make sense. If the revitalize ability could be used with XP (which in turn could be spent either from reserve or from the main XP pool) then it's be much more simpler and more elegant.
again, when you level your reserve goes back up to the level for their new level. Plus they can drain any arcane items not just ones they make. And for defiler items this would be a really good way to get rid these tainted items. So you are wrong on the only ways you can replenish it.
People have been oversimplifying the abilities to try and add additional abilities to the class.
Note the artificer classes ability only allows you to use the reserve for item creation you can not even use it for spells. (and this is where the rules were built from.) Do you have the same objections to that classes ability?
And actually Xlor the item drain ability was something discussed to be added back when we were all working on the dragons.... we just compiled the ideas in from the old discussions.
It seems to me, that the idea of magic item draining was a way to incorporate the story elements of that short story about the 4th avangion (can't remember the name off hand). I think one thing people seem to be forgetting, is that the avangion doesn't necessarily have to craft the item he depletes - well, at least that's how I'm reading it - so no wasted time/money on the part of the avangion. Only the poor soul who made the item that gets drained would worry about that loss.
That's generally true, but if the avangion wants to refill his reserve pool, and isn't willing to give up his own personal items, he'll have to create items for the sole purpose of draining them, wasting both time and money. Since the only reason to increase your reserve pool with your own XP is to use the revitalize power (otherwise just spend the XP straight up), this is essentially saying that the avangion has to spend cash in order to perform revitalizations once the pool has been used. For an ability that has little to no practical effect on the game, this seems a high price to pay.
Important note here.... and Avangion can NOT use the pool for even half of the things you can use xp for.
Note they only get to use the pool for powering arcane spells (epic and non epic) and creating magic items.
An avangion is essentially a wizard as evidenced by the requirements to become one (of course they are also psionically inclined, but their predominant class is and always has been wizard). A wizard can use XP to:
1. Gain a level
2. Cast certain spells
3. Create epic spells
4. Mitigate epic spell DCs
5. Create magic items
Three of the five things I can think to do with XP, they are able to use their reserve pool for, and as written I not sure about #3, so maybe it's 4. In any case, the only real place a wizard can't use the reserve pool is for leveling.
Plus they can drain any arcane items not just ones they make. And for defiler items this would be a really good way to get rid these tainted items.
I don't think anyone ever said their own items are the only way to replenish the pool. But unless you happen to have an excess of magic items on Athas where magic is frowned upon to say the least, it's your own items or nothing. And unless you specifically recover an item from the hands of a defiler, you can't be sure which kind of wizard made it (and not even necessarily then). Besides, even if you recover an item from a defiler, your fellow partymates might be a bit peeved if you just suck the life force from all the treasure they just earned.
That's generally true, but if the avangion wants to refill his reserve pool, and isn't willing to give up his own personal items, he'll have to create items for the sole purpose of draining them, wasting both time and money. Since the only reason to increase your reserve pool with your own XP is to use the revitalize power (otherwise just spend the XP straight up), this is essentially saying that the avangion has to spend cash in order to perform revitalizations once the pool has been used. For an ability that has little to no practical effect on the game, this seems a high price to pay.
*sigh*
First off you keep overlooking the fact that every single time they level in the class their pool is raised up to the listed amount for FREE.
You are wanting to make them have virtually free reign over an ability that has a huge impact on the game. They actually increase the category of the terrain in the area arround them permanently. (unless areas of in question are incapable of supporting the new life.) This means not only does it add to the spellcasting of any other arcane casters in an area, but allows them to generate vast areas of lush/verdanant land... which in time could change the very face of Athas. If they had no limits to this ability you could litterally have an Avangion huge swaths of land within a very short time. There have to be in game balances for the systems.
There must be balances for any and all abilities offered by a class, so that they do not overrun a campaign. In this case it is a balance that is actually valid by the concept. They generate a pool inside of themselves that allows them to mitigate the cost of life force of other spells. This pool can also be used for other purposes but it is mainly used for this. The revitalize ability is a seperate use of the life energy of the pool....
at no time is the pool actually xp, it is just something that can be used in place of xp.... so just because the energy has another purpose does NOT mean that xp can be used for the same purpose.
To use yet another analogy:
you can use several other substances in place of blood for transfussions for instance..... that have other uses as well, including cleaning.... does that mean blood can be used to clean? NO....
An avangion is essentially a wizard as evidenced by the requirements to become one (of course they are also psionically inclined, but their predominant class is and always has been wizard). A wizard can use XP to:
1. Gain a level
2. Cast certain spells
3. Create epic spells
4. Mitigate epic spell DCs
5. Create magic items
Three of the five things I can think to do with XP, they are able to use their reserve pool for, and as written I not sure about #3, so maybe it's 4. In any case, the only real place a wizard can't use the reserve pool is for leveling.
First off an Avangion is NOT essentially a wizard, they are a multiclass character that is primariy a wizard with at a minimum 11 levels in manifesting classes.... for an average character entering this class that is 1/2 toi 1/3 or their total levels. So they can use xp for the following.
1. Gain a level
2. Cast certain spells
3. Create epic spells
4. Mitigate epic spell DCs
5. Create magic items
6. Manifest certain powers
7. Create epic powers
8. Mitigate epic power DCs
9. Create psionic items.
plus possibly others depending on their class combinations.
Only 2, 4, and 5 can be powered using the pool.
Note there is nothing in the ability talking about removing the cost of creating epic spells for the exact reasons I have been giving.... this is life energy taking the place of casting/enchanting. the loss incurred in research is not due to actual casting of spells so their is no life energy to replace in this case.
I don't think anyone ever said their own items are the only way to replenish the pool. But unless you happen to have an excess of magic items on Athas where magic is frowned upon to say the least, it's your own items or nothing. And unless you specifically recover an item from the hands of a defiler, you can't be sure which kind of wizard made it (and not even necessarily then). Besides, even if you recover an item from a defiler, your fellow partymates might be a bit peeved if you just suck the life force from all the treasure they just earned.
First off, considering that people have been focusing on creating items only.... it seems people are overlooking the idea of using found items. And in the original modules for darksun there were quite a few magic items in every module.
Second, if an item is designed around defiling then no preserver is going to want it around anyway and if they are just letting the rest of the part keep it (oh like say a rod that allows the caster to use Raze feats or something) then they are hardly playing a defender of the preserver way. So there are some devices that are plain and simply defiler devices, Not all items are like this but some would be, in fact I would really expect there to be a significant number of pure defiling devices to be around from the era of the cleansing war. Not to mention the idea of stationary magical items that an Avangion might drain so that they would not fall into the hands of defilers again. The amount and number of magic items/places an Avangion could use to replenish is controlled strictly by the DM.
And if the Avangion is using some of the energy that it is draining from the items to make other items the party might want more, I somehow doubt they would be too upset if the Avangion was taking the lionshare of the magic items. (just the arcane ones, which they are likely the only one to be able to use in the case of wands and such anyway.)
*sigh*
...it seems people are overlooking the idea of using found items. And in the original modules for darksun there were quite a few magic items in every module.
Well, actually, that is what I was meaning when I said...
I think one thing people seem to be forgetting, is that the avangion doesn't necessarily have to craft the item he depletes ...snip... Only the poor soul who made the item that gets drained would worry about that loss.
:P
*sigh*
SIGH SIGH SIGH SIGH SIGH
Clearly this ability has created controversy. If you didn't want feedback, don't ask for it and then complain when you get it.
First off you keep overlooking the fact that every single time they level in the class their pool is raised up to the listed amount for FREE.
No, I'm not. I'm considering the possibility that it takes a long time for an avangion to level up, and if they want to use their revitalize ability a lot, they are essentially prohibited from using their reserve pool for anything else.
You are wanting to make them have virtually free reign over an ability that has a huge impact on the game. They actually increase the category of the terrain in the area arround them permanently. (unless areas of in question are incapable of supporting the new life.) This means not only does it add to the spellcasting of any other arcane casters in an area, but allows them to generate vast areas of lush/verdanant land... which in time could change the very face of Athas. If they had no limits to this ability you could litterally have an Avangion huge swaths of land within a very short time. There have to be in game balances for the systems.
I'm sorry, but revitalize, while a very interesting and flavorful ability, is essentially useless to the avangion. Any other arcane spellcasters in the area are probably defilers or dragons trying to kill the avangion. If not, then they're probably lower level than the avangion anyway, and are so much cannon fodder for the next significant encounter to come by.
It's all very well and good to restore Athas, but this ability won't do it. If an avangion used every point of his reserve pool for nothing but revitalization efforts for every level from 1-10, he would restore less than 1 square mile of athas. And this doesn't even consider the fact that large portions of Athas woul require several passes with the ability to really be considered "revitalized". This does not include additional points from magic items or other sources, but it's still a paltry amount of land.
at no time is the pool actually xp, it is just something that can be used in place of xp.... so just because the energy has another purpose does NOT mean that xp can be used for the same purpose.
To use yet another analogy:
you can use several other substances in place of blood for transfussions for instance..... that have other uses as well, including cleaning.... does that mean blood can be used to clean? NO....
We're not talking about blood, gasoline, or anything else, we're talking about this particular ability.
First off an Avangion is NOT essentially a wizard, they are a multiclass character that is primariy a wizard with at a minimum 11 levels in manifesting classes.... for an average character entering this class that is 1/2 toi 1/3 or their total levels. So they can use xp for the following.
1. Gain a level
2. Cast certain spells
3. Create epic spells
4. Mitigate epic spell DCs
5. Create magic items
6. Manifest certain powers
7. Create epic powers
8. Mitigate epic power DCs
9. Create psionic items.
plus possibly others depending on their class combinations.
Only 2, 4, and 5 can be powered using the pool.
Note there is nothing in the ability talking about removing the cost of creating epic spells for the exact reasons I have been giving.... this is life energy taking the place of casting/enchanting. the loss incurred in research is not due to actual casting of spells so their is no life energy to replace in this case.
No avangion that spent time working to becoming one will have the ability to produce epic psionic powers when this class is first taken, so that eliminates 7 and 8. Psionic items are unlikely since the avangion is and always has been foremost a wizard and as such will probably have more craft magic item feats than psionic ones. They were advanced wizards in 2e and they remain so today.
First off, considering that people have been focusing on creating items only.... it seems people are overlooking the idea of using found items. And in the original modules for darksun there were quite a few magic items in every module.
Second, if an item is designed around defiling then no preserver is going to want it around anyway and if they are just letting the rest of the part keep it (oh like say a rod that allows the caster to use Raze feats or something) then they are hardly playing a defender of the preserver way. So there are some devices that are plain and simply defiler devices, Not all items are like this but some would be, in fact I would really expect there to be a significant number of pure defiling devices to be around from the era of the cleansing war. Not to mention the idea of stationary magical items that an Avangion might drain so that they would not fall into the hands of defilers again. The amount and number of magic items/places an Avangion could use to replenish is controlled strictly by the DM.
Of course raze rods are fair game to be drained, but what about the potions, the swords, the armor, the rings or the hoards of wondrous items that are impossible to tell who made them?
I'm not convinced that avangions absolutely must be allowed to use XP for revitalize. But honestly, what does it hurt? What actually happens if they can?
1. They have less XP to go up a level. Never a good thing when the SKs are breathing down your neck.
2. They can revitalize fully a tiny village. Woohoo.
3. They have converted one measure of how many items they can make/spells the can cast/epic spells they can construct to another. No actual effect at all.
Basically the ability to send XP to the reserve pool is more a hindrance than a benefit, but it adds flavor. Sacrificing their personal power for the betterment of Athas is something avangions should do.
The problem was that every idea I had seemed either much too strong (1 hp ~ 10 sq miles) or much too weak (1hp ~ 10 sq feet). Obviously there are a lot of choices, but I think this ability, while certainly in keeping with the the avangions do, is something that will require several iterations of development before it's really hashed out well.
Perhaps this could better be represented via ability damage (1 point ~ ??? area) so that the avangion suffers for his restoration efforts, but then restores himself through rest and naturally letting his overwhelming lifeforce return, and then goes out to do it again.
Perhaps if the energy reserve ability was not so directly tied to XP, it would be clearer. Maybe the pool is say 50 points at 1st level and the avangion can convert each reserve point to the equivalent of 100 XP for the purposes of spellcasting, etc. Only one point would be used for revitalize, but for an increased area. Draining magic items would grant points based on caster level of the item instead of XP, which as we're all well aware by no DOES NOT equal life force. Then the avangion could replenish the pool at a cost of x points of ability damage = y points of reserve. Etc, etc... Just an idea.
Does an avangion really even need reforestation as an epic PrC ability? Wouldn’t an avangion focused on replenishing Athas’ plant life achieve or deliver greater results by casting some type of epic spell with the sole purpose of vegetating a large area of land?
SIGH SIGH SIGH SIGH SIGH
Clearly this ability has created controversy. If you didn't want feedback, don't ask for it and then complain when you get it.
I do not mind feedback, in fact I enjoy it, but after I have written large amounts of information explaining an ability in detail and why it is not what a person is trying to make it into. It gets tiring. Especially when people appear to be repeatedly ignoring parts of my posts in favor what they are wanting to see it as
No, I'm not. I'm considering the possibility that it takes a long time for an avangion to level up, and if they want to use their revitalize ability a lot, they are essentially prohibited from using their reserve pool for anything else.
Considering that none of the Avangions have been shown to use this ability in the past (as it did not exist) and as there are arcane spells that do this effect less expensive... this is an addon ability. This is literally the reverse of defiling and it requires actual life force not just xp.
I'm sorry, but revitalize, while a very interesting and flavorful ability, is essentially useless to the avangion. Any other arcane spellcasters in the area are probably defilers or dragons trying to kill the avangion. If not, then they're probably lower level than the avangion anyway, and are so much cannon fodder for the next significant encounter to come by.
It's all very well and good to restore Athas, but this ability won't do it. If an avangion used every point of his reserve pool for nothing but revitalization efforts for every level from 1-10, he would restore less than 1 square mile of athas. And this doesn't even consider the fact that large portions of Athas woul require several passes with the ability to really be considered "revitalized". This does not include additional points from magic items or other sources, but it's still a paltry amount of land.
You are making some rather broad assumptions that they would not have usefull level preservers in an area.... after all not all preservers would choose to become avangions.... (possibly not even all preservers in a single party) so there may even be a preserver in the area of even higher level than the avangion. Or even if the avangion starts training other preservers.
Also as this ability can reverse the effects of defiling, it can be used to repair the damage after a fight with defilers or dragons. (which areas that are not defiled are actually components for some spells.)
We're not talking about blood, gasoline, or anything else, we're talking about this particular ability.
No we are discussing the ability and I am using analogies too try and show you the fallacy of your arguement. The energy in the pool is NOT xp, so there is no reason that xp should be able to be used to supplement the pool directly without an outside agency....
And as I have said before, this is just the core ability. I have even mentioned there is the possibilty there may be an epic feat that would allow the translation of exp into life energy for the pool, but there would be some form of transformation medium (such as ability drain the likes of the body fuel feat.)
No avangion that spent time working to becoming one will have the ability to produce epic psionic powers when this class is first taken, so that eliminates 7 and 8. Psionic items are unlikely since the avangion is and always has been foremost a wizard and as such will probably have more craft magic item feats than psionic ones. They were advanced wizards in 2e and they remain so today.
lets see.... lets take apart your arguements one by one.
first, the not producing epic powers:
minimum levels to cast both epic spells and epic powers:
wizard 7/psion 7/cerebramancer 10 (level 24)
If they have practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester they are a manifester level 21 caster level 21, which means they are easily within the same powers as others of their level. (and taking a single level 4 power psychic reformation they can swap out their feats pretty much at will.)
And note with the idea we are looking at of them gaining actual levels of manifesting and spellcasting at alternating levels even a minimum level avangion, specializing on their spellcasting, will gain the ability to manifest 9th level powers by level 30. So they will be able to gain epic manifesting easily enough. (2 levels sooner if they go level 7 wizard level 4 psion base instead)
Wizard 8/psion 3/cerebramancer 10/avangion 9
Which with practiced spellcaster feat they have a caster level 30, and a manifester 21 (25 with practiced manifester)
Second, psionic items
as they can switch out their feats at will if they have the right power, there is no reason for them not to make psionic items and several reasons for them to do so.
1. they do not detect as magical and work in anti magic areas (which makes them really useful to make for party members)
2. every city state has bans/restrictions on magic items/components, but less on psionic items.
3. does not use life energy so they are not a risk to the enviroment to make
4. there are some powers that there are no equivilent arcane spells for. (healing for instance)
5. with psychic reformation you can learn any power, which means you can have items that you ordinarily would not have in your list.
etc...
So while they are primarily a wizard that does not make them only a wizard.... in fact they are more than just a wizard and always have been... they actually were considered as powerful as a psionicist in 2nd edition as a wizard. As they gained the full psionic powers of a psionicist for levels 21 to 30 unlike a dragon which gained limited psionics.
Of course raze rods are fair game to be drained, but what about the potions, the swords, the armor, the rings or the hoards of wondrous items that are impossible to tell who made them?
Well lets see, what about items that the party does not need.... like the +1 swords and such when all the party members have +3 or better. These are all good drain items.... heck even a +1 dagger is going to give you at least 40 reserve points, which can be better used elsewhere. (either for items, revitalize, or spells.)
I'm not convinced that avangions absolutely must be allowed to use XP for revitalize. But honestly, what does it hurt? What actually happens if they can?
1. They have less XP to go up a level. Never a good thing when the SKs are breathing down your neck.
2. They can revitalize fully a tiny village. Woohoo.
3. They have converted one measure of how many items they can make/spells the can cast/epic spells they can construct to another. No actual effect at all.
Basically the ability to send XP to the reserve pool is more a hindrance than a benefit, but it adds flavor. Sacrificing their personal power for the betterment of Athas is something avangions should do.
As I have said repeatedly above, it goes against the flavor and the nature of the base ability. And I have mentioned repeatedly that there is a possibility of a feat that would allow conversion. And that it would have an equivilent cost, like doing ability damage similiar to body fuel when the conversion takes place. After all that is using the characters life force to allow the conversion makes more sense.
By the way, back in the day when 3e first came out and I along with everyone else was toying with their own private conversion of DS to the new rules, I tried to find some ability that would allow an avangion to restore Athas with his life force, in the form of hit points or ability damage.
The problem was that every idea I had seemed either much too strong (1 hp ~ 10 sq miles) or much too weak (1hp ~ 10 sq feet). Obviously there are a lot of choices, but I think this ability, while certainly in keeping with the the avangions do, is something that will require several iterations of development before it's really hashed out well.
I know I have looked at alot of different ways to do this. Note the version in the athas.org version is not even the version of the avangion abilities I am using in my own systems. I have personal issues that reject the basis of the dragon abilities... which we are making the avangions the opposite of. Everything we compiled is stuff from discussions on the avangions going all the way back to the during the dragon prc creation. (I have posted my versions of the dragon on some threads over here but have been refraining on the avangions so as to not confse the issue with this version. Because alot of abilities of my version would require some revamping of the dragons too.)
Perhaps this could better be represented via ability damage (1 point ~ ??? area) so that the avangion suffers for his restoration efforts, but then restores himself through rest and naturally letting his overwhelming lifeforce return, and then goes out to do it again.
Actually you are getting right to the focus of the feat I have mentioned a few times. The idea of allowing a transfer using ability damage to allow xp to be translated into life energy.
Note on my own version of the avangion, I do not even have a reserve pool, that was created to offset the epic uses of dragon magic.
but as my versions of dragon magic and avangion magic are a bit different so do not have to do that kind of stuff. (my versions of avangions can take con damage to revitalize an area, but they are able to regenerate ability damage faster.)
Perhaps if the energy reserve ability was not so directly tied to XP, it would be clearer. Maybe the pool is say 50 points at 1st level and the avangion can convert each reserve point to the equivalent of 100 XP for the purposes of spellcasting, etc. Only one point would be used for revitalize, but for an increased area. Draining magic items would grant points based on caster level of the item instead of XP, which as we're all well aware by no DOES NOT equal life force. Then the avangion could replenish the pool at a cost of x points of ability damage = y points of reserve. Etc, etc... Just an idea.
Actually this is a pretty interesting idea, and I think this is something that the buraeau should definately look at on the possibility of lowering the ratio a bit.
granting points on caster level does not work either.... because a wand of magic missle at caster level 5 and caster level 20 are both using pretty much the same amount of arcane energy.... but no where near as much as a wand of ice storm..... this is why xp is a better gauge as it is based off the total cost of the item.
I have written large amounts of information explaining an ability in detail and why it is not what a person is trying to make it into. It gets tiring. Especially when people appear to be repeatedly ignoring parts of my posts in favor what they are wanting to see it as
Ditto.
Considering that none of the Avangions have been shown to use this ability in the past (as it did not exist) and as there are arcane spells that do this effect less expensive... this is an addon ability. This is literally the reverse of defiling and it requires actual life force not just xp.
As I said, earlier, if XP != life force (which I agree with), then these things should really be very separate. As it now stands, they are too closely related, hence all the confusion/debate.
No we are discussing the ability and I am using analogies too try and show you the fallacy of your arguement. The energy in the pool is NOT xp, so there is no reason that xp should be able to be used to supplement the pool directly without an outside agency....
Analogies are misleading and should be avoided. If your argument can't hold without them, your argument can't hold at all. (Not that I'm saying your argument is invalid.)
And as I have said before, this is just the core ability. I have even mentioned there is the possibilty there may be an epic feat that would allow the translation of exp into life energy for the pool, but there would be some form of transformation medium (such as ability drain the likes of the body fuel feat.)
Very reasonable, but I still disagree that the ability to add to the pool with your own personal life force should be beyond the capabilities of a avangion without additional requirements. I can't force you to agree with me, so I'll leave it at that.
lets see.... lets take apart your arguements one by one.
We apparently have different ideas about what an aspiring avangion would focus on. To each his own.
As I have said repeatedly above, it goes against the flavor and the nature of the base ability.
Only because that's how this completely new, arbitrary ability was written. Since nothing is yet final, it's easy to change.
Nevertheless, I feel confident that the kinks will be worked out. Since we are now offically arguing in circles, I don't think I'll have much more to contribute on this ability.
Ditto.
Heh, actually I thought I had gone out of my way to go every single point you had made on it. I do not see where I refrained from responding to you on them. Heck most people say it is hard to get me to shut up :p
I am a massive rules lawyer myself and so I nitpick more than I should sometimes *grin* I hope you dont take it personally.
As I said, earlier, if XP != life force (which I agree with), then these things should really be very separate. As it now stands, they are too closely related, hence all the confusion/debate.
Which is why I agreed on prior posts that I we need to rewrite the ability to get the wording right. I am the first to admit I messed up on the wording. Left it too close to the original version, which apparently left some loopholes I had not noticed for confusion
Analogies are misleading and should be avoided. If your argument can't hold without them, your argument can't hold at all. (Not that I'm saying your argument is invalid.)
Yes I agree analogies can be misleading, but i have found that at times they do help to explain a situation that is not seeming to be grasped. The biggest problem with posting on threads is it is hard sometimes to actually find out for sure what others have grasped and what is being argued. I have had to use analogies alot to explain computers and networks to customers over the last dozen or so years and it has become a bit ingrained. I do apologize if it comes off a bit heavy handed sometimes.
And my arguements can hold water on their own, but your responses to them seem to indicate you were seeing the xp and reserve as being teh same so they should be interchangable and I was trying to explain that when a substance can be used in place of another in a limited form that does not mean the two things are interchangable on all things.
Very reasonable, but I still disagree that the ability to add to the pool with your own personal life force should be beyond the capabilities of a avangion without additional requirements. I can't force you to agree with me, so I'll leave it at that.
yep this is something we just disagree on. I was going for a balance issue on it that kept with the flavor of the source of the "internal power" of the avangion being more of a case of storing excess over time and a more efficient use of the powers they drain (which supports the prior fluff on spellcasters) vs them actually being able to use their own life force as much.
again just one view on the subject.
We apparently have different ideas about what an aspiring avangion would focus on. To each his own.
agreed we do....
but as I showed even one choosing to go primarily on arcane magic (which is actually not supported by 2nd edition rules or fluff.... in 2nd edition they mastered both forms.... more so than dragons who were shown to have a bias for the easier power of magic by the actual stats, in that they did not get full psionicist progression after level 20) they would quickly have the ability to be able to tke epic manifesting as well. So their options are open both ways, unlike a dragon who is more limited in that way.
Only because that's how this completely new, arbitrary ability was written. Since nothing is yet final, it's easy to change.
Nevertheless, I feel confident that the kinks will be worked out. Since we are now offically arguing in circles, I don't think I'll have much more to contribute on this ability.
This "completely new, arbitrary ability" was actually based off an ability of a class from an official WotC book, and its wording is nearly identical. Which many of the problems that you are having with it could be made from the other ability as well. And I agree that some of the wording needs to be rewritten to make stuff clearer.
And as to you contributing, you did offer a really good suggestion in the post right before this, possibly changing the ratio on the reserve would likely make things easier for people.
I do appreciate the feedback
No, I'm not. I'm considering the possibility that it takes a long time for an avangion to level up, and if they want to use their revitalize ability a lot, they are essentially prohibited from using their reserve pool for anything else.
Guess what, it takes self restraint. You can't become Mr Goody-forest-maker all at once. It takes time, energy, and a lot of effort to do it. Granting an individual Avangion the ability to shape the world, basically for free as an ability from just going through the process, would be... well.... unbalanced.
I'm sorry, but revitalize, while a very interesting and flavorful ability, is essentially useless to the avangion. Any other arcane spellcasters in the area are probably defilers or dragons trying to kill the avangion. If not, then they're probably lower level than the avangion anyway, and are so much cannon fodder for the next significant encounter to come by.
Because we know that revitalizing the land is only important to arcane spellcasters. Nobody else benefits from the ability, and Avangions exist only to serve as batteries for other arcane spellcasters. /sarcasm
It's all very well and good to restore Athas, but this ability won't do it. If an avangion used every point of his reserve pool for nothing but revitalization efforts for every level from 1-10, he would restore less than 1 square mile of athas. And this doesn't even consider the fact that large portions of Athas woul require several passes with the ability to really be considered "revitalized". This does not include additional points from magic items or other sources, but it's still a paltry amount of land.
Well, it's a big job, not exactly something that one lone Avangion could ever hope to succeed with. What, you want overnight success? Avangions are not gods, y'know. And there's more to them than just revitalization. Just about everything I've ever seen about good vs evil, is evil tends to be quick and easy, while good is not what you would typically define as "quick" in this sense, and rarely easy.
We're not talking about blood, gasoline, or anything else, we're talking about this particular ability.
And he's using allegory (sic) in order to explain the process since apparently people are not quite getting it.
No avangion that spent time working to becoming one will have the ability to produce epic psionic powers when this class is first taken, so that eliminates 7 and 8. Psionic items are unlikely since the avangion is and always has been foremost a wizard and as such will probably have more craft magic item feats than psionic ones. They were advanced wizards in 2e and they remain so today.
Because Avangions are all about the quickest, easiest path to development. I always get a kick out of an argument like that, because in all honesty, it isn't an argument. Avangions who want to be ahead a bit more, woould devote extra time towards Psionic development. Those who even use Cerebrmancer, are pretty close to getting there already. So your point fails, because your supposition of "No avangion" is flawed. Just those who are rushing, and once again, Avangions are, of course all about rushing through the process to get to the end. Right now, we're discussing ways to allow for Psionic development to continue normally (at a slower-than-normal pace), even while taking levels of the PrC to reflect that the Avangions tend to be a bit more psionic, partially to compensate for the significant weaknesses they have physically.
Of course raze rods are fair game to be drained, but what about the potions, the swords, the armor, the rings or the hoards of wondrous items that are impossible to tell who made them?
What's your point? Any Avangion I can think of would of course consider any magic item fair game, if they can use it of course, rather than stealing more life-energy from living things.
I'm not convinced that avangions absolutely must be allowed to use XP for revitalize. But honestly, what does it hurt? What actually happens if they can?
1. They have less XP to go up a level. Never a good thing when the SKs are breathing down your neck.
2. They can revitalize fully a tiny village. Woohoo.
3. They have converted one measure of how many items they can make/spells the can cast/epic spells they can construct to another. No actual effect at all.
Basically the ability to send XP to the reserve pool is more a hindrance than a benefit, but it adds flavor. Sacrificing their personal power for the betterment of Athas is something avangions should do.
You do have an interesting argument, but in the end, it has to be weighed against not only Dragons, but other Epic characters, and seen how valuable it could be, and then seen how unbalancing it could be. I'll admit, these are the kinds of suggestions that do spur discussion, and discussion tends to slow development processes. I'm not completely against you here, I do see your points. I'm just wanting to look at it from all angles, and I'm reserved about it, because it seems potentially unbalancing.
but as I showed even one choosing to go primarily on arcane magic (which is actually not supported by 2nd edition rules or fluff.... in 2nd edition they mastered both forms.... more so than dragons who were shown to have a bias for the easier power of magic by the actual stats, in that they did not get full psionicist progression after level 20) they would quickly have the ability to be able to tke epic manifesting as well. So their options are open both ways, unlike a dragon who is more limited in that way.
For the record, that is something I really pushed -- leaving the initial requirements unbalanced like this that is. Because the arguments I made, every single argument I made about the game mechanical failings that I felt mandated that kind of a process, remain. 3/3.5e just doesn't help in this light. However, I am trying to make compensatory efforts after the process has started, to help out the Avangion and bolster that psionic ability a bit more during the transformation, unlike the Dragon who gets bolstered physically.
For the record, that is something I really pushed -- leaving the initial requirements unbalanced like this that is. Because the arguments I made, every single argument I made about the game mechanical failings that I felt mandated that kind of a process, remain. 3/3.5e just doesn't help in this light. However, I am trying to make compensatory efforts after the process has started, to help out the Avangion and bolster that psionic ability a bit more during the transformation, unlike the Dragon who gets bolstered physically.
Actually Xlor, I think the requirements we did were pretty good at the time and I did not fight too hard to switch out the minimum power level requirement. So that is why we are all working to balance it out.
I personally have thought through the requirements a bit and changed them alot for my own systems, I found the following worked alot better:
Dragons:
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 23 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 23 ranks.
Feats: Body Fuel, Psionic Body, any 2 metamagic or metapsionic feats.
Spells: Arcane caster level 18th.
Psionics: Manifester level 16th and able to manifest psychic reformation.
Special: Must be a Defiler, and must have been the target of a successful casting of the defiler metamorphosis I spell/ritual.
Avangions:
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 24 ranks.
Feats: Mind Over Body, Psionic Body, any 2 metamagic or metapsionic feats.
Spells: Arcane caster level 18th.
Psionics: Manifester level 16th and able to manifest psychic reformation.
Special: Must be a Preserver, and must have performed the preserver metamorphosis I spell/ritual.
Personally I found the psionic body feat and the other feat requirement fit better with actual abilities of dragons and avangions respectively. plus this shows a more powerful basis for both arcane casting and manifesting. But still allows for psychic warriors and still allows for a level 21 character to start becoming a dragon or avangion, as the following is the minimum class requirements.
wizard 8/psion 3/cerebramancer 10
(taking the practiced manifester and practiced spellcaster feats, along with the requirements takes all but 3 of their total feats for a nonhuman.)
My two bits...
Does an avangion really even need reforestation as an epic PrC ability? Wouldn’t an avangion focused on replenishing Athas’ plant life achieve or deliver greater results by casting some type of epic spell with the sole purpose of vegetating a large area of land?
"So yeah, I see where you're coming from sysane, but here's the following reasons why we felt that the avangion should do this though an addon PrC ability rather than having them cast an epic or non-epic level spell <>..."
"So yeah, I see where you're coming from sysane, but here's the following reasons why we felt that the avangion should do this though an addon PrC ability rather than having them cast an epic or non-epic level spell <>..."
actually sysane I had responded to this in a way in my response to CSK directly after your post:
"Considering that none of the Avangions have been shown to use this ability in the past (as it did not exist) and as there are arcane spells that do this effect less expensive... this is an addon ability. This is literally the reverse of defiling and it requires actual life force not just xp."
It is just a natural outgrowth of the idea of preserving.... instead of limmiting the drain so that it does not defile when you gather for a spell, you actually and as a standard action increase the level of vegitation in an area by infusing the area with additional life energy from your pool. A reverse form to the defiling of a defiler/dragon.
it was a good counterpoint to the Raze feats/psionic raze ability of a dragon.
I'm fine with the ability to revitalize the land as part of their spellcasting action, its the ability to channel XP in order to do so. Personally I'd remove the XP cost for that and limit it to being able to reverse the effects of defiling thru the replenish the green ability only. I'd also limit it to a set number of times per day or week equal to the avangion's arcane caster level.
Um actually sysane, that has been what the arguement has been about. It does not have an xp cost it uses the energy pool which is the life energy that they have stored in the their pool. Originally I was going to have it have no cost or a much lower one, and only part of the replenish the green. (ie only used when spells were cast.) but this was change later to allow them to do it more often and allow them to do it more often and to grant them a way to replenish an area without casting a spell.
Um actually sysane, that has been what the arguement has been about. It does not have an xp cost it uses the energy pool which is the life energy that they have stored in the their pool. Originally I was going to have it have no cost or a much lower one, and only part of the replenish the green. (ie only used when spells were cast.) but this was change later to allow them to do it more often and allow them to do it more often and to grant them a way to replenish an area without casting a spell.
What I meant to convey was to detach the energy pool from the replenish the green mechanic entirely. If an avangion wants to replenish an area without the replenish the green ability they would be better served by casting a spell specially tailored to do so with greater effect.
Actually Xlor, I think the requirements we did were pretty good at the time and I did not fight too hard to switch out the minimum power level requirement. So that is why we are all working to balance it out.
I personally have thought through the requirements a bit and changed them alot for my own systems, I found the following worked alot better:
Dragons:
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 23 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 23 ranks.
Feats: Body Fuel, Psionic Body, any 2 metamagic or metapsionic feats.
Spells: Arcane caster level 18th.
Psionics: Manifester level 16th and able to manifest psychic reformation.
Special: Must be a Defiler, and must have been the target of a successful casting of the defiler metamorphosis I spell/ritual.
Avangions:
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 24 ranks.
Feats: Mind Over Body, Psionic Body, any 2 metamagic or metapsionic feats.
Spells: Arcane caster level 18th.
Psionics: Manifester level 16th and able to manifest psychic reformation.
Special: Must be a Preserver, and must have performed the preserver metamorphosis I spell/ritual.
Personally I found the psionic body feat and the other feat requirement fit better with actual abilities of dragons and avangions respectively. plus this shows a more powerful basis for both arcane casting and manifesting. But still allows for psychic warriors and still allows for a level 21 character to start becoming a dragon or avangion, as the following is the minimum class requirements.
wizard 8/psion 3/cerebramancer 10
(taking the practiced manifester and practiced spellcaster feats, along with the requirements takes all but 3 of their total feats for a nonhuman.)
Ick, you actually specified level requirements. I like specifying ability to cast X level spells/powers far better. It just seems more..... 3/3.5e 'correct'.
Ick, you actually specified level requirements. I like specifying ability to cast X level spells/powers far better. It just seems more..... 3/3.5e 'correct'.
no I did not specify "level requirement" I specified "arcane caster level" requirement and "manifester level" requirements. That is totally different from character or class level requirement. And caster level requirement is just as common on spellcasting PrC's now in official products as able to cast x spell.
They started making this difference in the Complete series. In Complete Arcane about half of the PrC's use caster level requirements instead of "able to cast x level spells" and it makes a big difference in how you can level.
First off feats like practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester increase caster level so they can be used to help meet the requirements.
Second the caster level/manifester level represents overall ability to cast/manifest which means psychic warrior is a legal choice with out having to limit the classes to just level 6 powers. And by the other requirements, they have to be a manifester class that can actually manifest powers, as they must be able to manifest the psychic reformation power in addition.
On the caster portion, as only wizard is a valid arcane caster class in the athas.org version, that means that they have to have high level of the wizard class and must have the epic spell of defiler metamorphosis I cast on them. However in games where other arcane classes are allowed (like the warlock) you have given them another option to make a new form of dragon.
The feats I required had specific reasons too. Psionic body was to represent the massive change to a psionic and magically changed form (similiar to the elans actually for the basis) the body fuel represented the beginnings of my version of dragon magic (which did con damage to all in the defiling radius, and the points were used to supplement the spell) and the mind over body for avangions was to represent their ability to recover their own ability damage. (both to represent how they could use their own ability damage to power magic, and their ability to resist the power of dragons)
but back to the stuff on the Avangions:
Sysane, In my own version of avangions, I did not link them as I did not even use the energy pool. However it made more sense to link it in this version as the energy pool represented their stored life energy .... which would be what could be used to power spells and such abilities. Although I can definately see where you are coming from and that is part of why I did not use the energy pool at all in my own version.
I would instead like to see that they could maybe grow in powering their spells with their "inner" strenght (not PSPs) - say like at 1st level, they no longer have to use plant life for 1st- 3rd level spells, at 3rd level they can do the same for 4-6th level spells, and at 6th lvl they no longer require plant life for up to 9th level, and then the capper would be at 9th level they can cast Epic spells without plant life.
If not this then I would be for something like "arcane power points" that replenish every day instead of the pool idea - like I said - I am not feeling the draining of magical items too much.
I would also like to see something that addresses the CL bonus arcane spellcasters get when casting spells in certian terrian - so like if they were at like 100% hp or something, they would get the CL bonus like if they were in verdant terrian. Of course, they should never be penalized, so the negative CL adjustments should not apply. This is just a rough idea. I just thought I would throw it out there - I could think up other conditions that may or may not be better then hp to determine this, but it was the easiest t give an example on.
And another thing - how about allowing the radiance they have negate the penilty for people in a defilers radius? That would be pretty cool - maybe let it be at like stage 5 or 6 and it be more like a feeling then a true radiant glow - like a sightless person can feel the light of the sun, but cannot see it - so to would people get this "feeling" that they could not yet see.
While I am on the radiance thing - did you fellers look in the Book of Exalted Deeds for more possible effects for this glow? I am just wondering.
Alright - that will be it for now.
Oh yeah - seker - I do not think you ever answered my other question posted on the 2nd page. Soooooo.......
Here is a suggestion - In place of the spell pool/energy reserve - I think that the fact that is gets depleated is a bit weak and the "recharging" by draining other items is "draconic" IMO.
I would instead like to see that they could maybe grow in powering their spells with their "inner" strenght (not PSPs) - say like at 1st level, they no longer have to use plant life for 1st- 3rd level spells, at 3rd level they can do the same for 4-6th level spells, and at 6th lvl they no longer require plant life for up to 9th level, and then the capper would be at 9th level they can cast Epic spells without plant life.
The draining of items is actually based on the fluff from short stories and novels. Also note that while preservers are more concerned with the life of the land, to be honest they drain energy just like defilers.... they are not druids or clerics which are granted power or psionic users that use a self replenishing source.... they are still "users"... they just do so with restraint. The idea of the pool is more along the lines of all the excess they have built up along the time supplemented with a small part with their own life force.
though my own version of the avangion had a totally different vision of this:
Avangion Magic (Su): Starting at 1st level, an avangion learns to supplement the energy they draw for spellcasting with their own internal renewable energy. This has the effect of having any spell they cast be treated as if it were cast in one terrain type better than the actual terrain, up to abundant. This also means the avangion can choose to cast spells without draining from the plant life at all, but in this case the spell is cast as if it were cast in desolate terrain.
And this ability increased as they got to certain stages in the physical metamorphosis
but just like my version of the dragons the ability to use avangion magic and dragon magic for epic spells required an additional epic level feat that granted certain bonuses.
If not this then I would be for something like "arcane power points" that replenish every day instead of the pool idea - like I said - I am not feeling the draining of magical items too much.
good idea, I will add it to the list of stuff I am bringing over to the board in a big email of the "suggestions from the boards"
I would also like to see something that addresses the CL bonus arcane spellcasters get when casting spells in certian terrian - so like if they were at like 100% hp or something, they would get the CL bonus like if they were in verdant terrian. Of course, they should never be penalized, so the negative CL adjustments should not apply. This is just a rough idea. I just thought I would throw it out there - I could think up other conditions that may or may not be better then hp to determine this, but it was the easiest t give an example on.
interesting idea, though it may make the rules a bit cumbersome
And another thing - how about allowing the radiance they have negate the penilty for people in a defilers radius? That would be pretty cool - maybe let it be at like stage 5 or 6 and it be more like a feeling then a true radiant glow - like a sightless person can feel the light of the sun, but cannot see it - so to would people get this "feeling" that they could not yet see.
that is a really great idea, I really like that. On the aura all we had really looked at was direct translation of the 2nd edition version.... that is a great idea
While I am on the radiance thing - did you fellers look in the Book of Exalted Deeds for more possible effects for this glow? I am just wondering.
Alright - that will be it for now.
Hehe, no I did not look at the book of exalted deeds at all while working on this.... cause that book just gives me the creeps. It just feels odd to me.... but then again I find the book of vile darkness to be comforting if a bit too "nice" for my tastes.
hehe I guess you can guess my alignment in D&D :p
Oh yeah - seker - I do not think you ever answered my other question posted on the 2nd page. Soooooo.......
um actually yes I did answer that question my answer was
"I will be searching through the old thread when I compile all the suggestions for the board so dont worry about those ones being lost."
And another thing - how about allowing the radiance they have negate the penilty for people in a defilers radius? That would be pretty cool - maybe let it be at like stage 5 or 6 and it be more like a feeling then a true radiant glow - like a sightless person can feel the light of the sun, but cannot see it - so to would people get this "feeling" that they could not yet see. .
Yeah, I'm diggin' this as well. I was trying to decide how effective an avangion would be at keeping his presence on-the-down-low, while being surrounded by a gigantic circle of light that screams "hey-its-me". An idea you may consider, is to have it be a possibility of both - ie. normally just a feeling of inner-goodness felt by those close by, but at times bursting forth as true light - like when they're ready to kick dragon-*****
While I am on the radiance thing - did you fellers look in the Book of Exalted Deeds for more possible effects for this glow? I am just wondering.
Agreed - particularly the feats associated with the Nimbus of Light.
And while we're on the subject, the Hyperconscious book has a power that provides an aura that i think could be tweaked a bit and worked into this...trying to remember the name...hmmm...ahh,ahha - mindful aura (on p103-104)
I personally like the class features as they stand, and don't see any issues with how they're currently worded. As has been stated, if an avangion wanted to create a forest he could make an epic spell that would be whole orders of magnitude better than Revitalize, and probably even cost less XP/Reserve Pool...or heck, just go and find himself some druids. 2e (Dragon Kings/Defilers and Preservers) contains several "uber revitalize" psionic enchantments that create large areas of forested terrain, so there's even in-game justification for the idea that an avangion would rely on Epic spells to create lush environments, which fits perfectly with the current wording/use of the Energy Reserve. And aside from that, if an avangion needs a crash-course reforestation project, he can always go and find himself some druidic companions to assist in the task. The major benefit of Revitalize is that it can "un-defile" an area, thus allowing druids to do their thing, making Epic spells a little easier to create (since you don't have to "fix" any defiled land in the area as part of the epic spell), and giving his preserver-allies a source of life from which to draw energy.
Two things worth noting from 2e:
1) The last stages of the preserver metamorphosis required that the avangion actively work with other, powerful, good creatures. This indicates that an avangion, as opposed to being a "single solution" creature, is instead intended to be a focal point for the "good works" of others. The avangion gets to advance to the next stage of power by working with others to make Athas a better place; they don't get there by doing it themselves. Giving them a class feature that would allow them to easily create large swaths of forest goes against this concept of teamwork.
2) The last stage also required a 5-mile diameter forest, true, but that was specifically stated as constituting "the preparation time for the spell;" the avangion doesn't make a forest because of what he is, he becomes what he is by making a forest. Again this is a matter of perspective, but one that is very important for the debate over how Revitalize and the Energy Reserve should work.
Note the artificer classes ability only allows you to use the reserve for item creation you can not even use it for spells. (and this is where the rules were built from.) Do you have the same objections to that classes ability?
Here's what it really boils down to for me, though. For an artificer there's nothing that he can use his craft reserve for that he can't do when he's run out. There's never a point in time, between using the last of his craft reserve and before his next level that the artificer goes "Oh well, can't use those class abilities cause I'm out of points." He can just use his XPs.
This isn't true for the avangion as written. The avangion can, theoretically, use all of his craft reserve to make items or cast spells, and then have a period of time where he has to go "Sorry guys, I can't un-defile this land cause I already used up all my points." Sure he's got some methods by which he could recharge his reserve, but it seems complicated, unnecessary and punitive to make him craft items and then drain them, dip into his stock of magic items and/or seek out spells which he can be targetted with and resist in order for him to use, what seems to me to be, one of his more basic class abilities.
Here's what it really boils down to for me, though. For an artificer there's nothing that he can use his craft reserve for that he can't do when he's run out. There's never a point in time, between using the last of his craft reserve and before his next level that the artificer goes "Oh well, can't use those class abilities cause I'm out of points." He can just use his XPs.
This isn't true for the avangion as written. The avangion can, theoretically, use all of his craft reserve to make items or cast spells, and then have a period of time where he has to go "Sorry guys, I can't un-defile this land cause I already used up all my points." Sure he's got some methods by which he could recharge his reserve, but it seems complicated, unnecessary and punitive to make him craft items and then drain them, dip into his stock of magic items and/or seek out spells which he can be targetted with and resist in order for him to use, what seems to me to be, one of his more basic class abilities.
Well, honestly, the fluff that exists around avangions, in a couple sources, leads one to believe it is exactly that. Whether you like it or not, avangions had already been portrayed as creatures that consumed the magical energy from magic items to use for at least part of their abilities. The result being that avangions have to either go hunting for these said magic items, and consume the energy within them, or creates magic items to turn around and consume them (which is a way to transfer XP into something that the avangions can use). It isn't quick, it isn't as efficient as, let's say, sucking the life-force out of local creatures to bolster and enhance a spell, but once again, the avangion process doesn't really scream "quick and easy path" to me.
Well, honestly, the fluff that exists around avangions, in a couple sources, leads one to believe it is exactly that. Whether you like it or not, avangions had already been portrayed as creatures that consumed the magical energy from magic items to use for at least part of their abilities.
Can we know what those sources are?
Because the only things I know of are ToO's avangion and his need for powerful relics, and Abbey's avangion Amiska and her use of items she stole from Hamanu's palace and uses as part of the spellcasting process.
Spellcasting process. Aka fluff. Tying to class abilities this need for items...doesn't come from official sources AFAIK. Its a logical extension, yes, but not necessarily one that works.
Avangions already sacrifice their point pool and/or XP and/or hps and/or whatever so they can undefile the land. That ability is good and sensible and works. That this ability also be used to make the item creation process easier shouldn't be the case. It should be exclusively used to undefile the land.
If this spell were converted it would completely negate the need for (and utility of) this ability, and we could all go home happy. Plus as others have said, it's probably best to leave the hardcore revitalization efforts to powerful epic spells.
Can we know what those sources are?
Because the only things I know of are ToO's avangion and his need for powerful relics, and Abbey's avangion Amiska and her use of items she stole from Hamanu's palace and uses as part of the spellcasting process.
Spellcasting process. Aka fluff. Tying to class abilities this need for items...doesn't come from official sources AFAIK. Its a logical extension, yes, but not necessarily one that works.
Which are the two sources. Let's be honest, there's not much to go on for Avangions -- more than Spirits of the Land and Elementals, but less than Dragons. As I said -- it is setting/fluff, and we're somewhat grasping for ways to make the Avangion more robust, since the sources are so much more limited than there was with Dragons.
Negating a source, just because it is fluff, simply because it is fluff, especially in the absense of other material to go off of is just silly. Yes, we know that mechanically, it may not quite work out the way the fluff has it, but completely ignoring it, especially in the face of so very little information about avangions to go off of in the first place, would be somewhat dumb.
Avangions already sacrifice their point pool and/or XP and/or hps and/or whatever so they can undefile the land. That ability is good and sensible and works. That this ability also be used to make the item creation process easier shouldn't be the case. It should be exclusively used to undefile the land.
Wait..... what are you arguing here? I was explicitly referring to their ability to consume the energies of magical items to assist with their ability to restore the land. It does stand to reason that they should be able to also use what stored energy they have to craft items -- to store the energy in some recepticle that later they can take back to serve their purposes. Psionic characters do it with (I forget the 3.5e term for this) "crystal capacitors" already. Avangions could simply be extending that kind of a system, but to help with this purpose. At least, that was my understanding of it (I could be wrong).
Avangions already sacrifice their point pool and/or XP and/or hps and/or whatever so they can undefile the land. That ability is good and sensible and works. That this ability also be used to make the item creation process easier shouldn't be the case. It should be exclusively used to undefile the land.
Umm penn, this is just a logical extension of way magic works in dark sun and to not allow the pool to be used for spells and magic item creation would make no sense.
Remember per everything ever written about defilers and preservers in 2ed and at athas.org.... the only difference is that the preservers drain less/stop draining prior to the defiling. The original fluff even talked about the preservers giving back a little bit of the life after casting to try and make sure they did not weaken the plant life.
The energy reserve is just basically the excess stored life energy accumulated due to the avangions normal drain used for casting spells.... they have accumulated enough to power any of their normal magics for long periods of time, plus a pool that can be used for their most powerful spells and to create items.... note since the pool is life energy however and not xp, it can also be pushed out into the surrounding to increase the life energy of the plants and such in the area immediately surrounding the Avangion.... un-defiling the area if you will.
But since this is just life energy it makes no sense for it not to be usable for spells and arcane magic item creation too.
My own version of Avangions went in a different way, which is why the energy reserve does not exist on my write up of the Avangions.
Would an avangion be able to drain an arcane created construct with their magic draining and storage ability?
The energy reserve is just basically the excess stored life energy accumulated due to the avangions normal drain used for casting spells.... they have accumulated enough to power any of their normal magics for long periods of time, plus a pool that can be used for their most powerful spells and to create items.... note since the pool is life energy however and not xp, it can also be pushed out into the surrounding to increase the life energy of the plants and such in the area immediately surrounding the Avangion.... un-defiling the area if you will.
But agian, you're muddling the concept of "Life energy" and "XP." If the reserve is really life energy then it should allow the avangion to cast with the benefits of defiling without actually defiling. It shouldn't replace XP to be spent in spells or magic item creation.
If you gave them a class ability that functioned in a way that they used some number of reserve points based on the spell level of their spell (the way defiling does), and didn't allow them to use Reserve Points and XP interchangably, I would really buy the distinction your trying to make. But as it is now, you have them being "Life Energy" points one time and "Experience Points" another, but you keep insisting that Life Energy and XP aren't the same.
{Edit} I don't have a problem with them draining magic items, that'd still be fine. If you were to go with a system like the one I mentioned above though, I would give them points based on the spells (and their levels) that are cast during item creation as opposed to the XP used.
But agian, you're muddling the concept of "Life energy" and "XP." If the reserve is really life energy then it should allow the avangion to cast with the benefits of defiling without actually defiling. It shouldn't replace XP to be spent in spells or magic item creation.
If you gave them a class ability that functioned in a way that they used some number of reserve points based on the spell level of their spell (the way defiling does), and didn't allow them to use Reserve Points and XP interchangably, I would really buy the distinction your trying to make. But as it is now, you have them being "Life Energy" points one time and "Experience Points" another, but you keep insisting that Life Energy and XP aren't the same.
{Edit} I don't have a problem with them draining magic items, that'd still be fine. If you were to go with a system like the one I mentioned above though, I would give them points based on the spells (and their levels) that are cast during item creation as opposed to the XP used.
No MysticTheurge, you are the one who keeps confusing the two terms. I have been saying the life energy from the pool can be used in place of xp not that it is xp. There is a significant difference between the two.
Per the PHB page 88 on item creation, they discuss the fact that the xp cost of an item relates to the "power and energy that a spellcaster would normally keep is expended when making a magic item."
there are similiar refferences to xp components in spells on page 174 of the PHB.
By the PHB therefor the act of item creation and the wording of certain spells draws on a spellcasters internal energy to supplemnent what is needed for a spell/item that requires much more energy than just a normal casting would require. Therefor item creation and certain spells break the rule to allow you to access that internal energy.... they are the exceptions not the base rule. They are cases where certain feats and/or spells allow you to convert your xp into magical energy.... it is not magical energy to begin with, otherwise it would be weird for high level warriors to be fast storehouses of magical energy in normal campaigns.
Now how this translates to Darksun's version of spellcasting which specifies where the energy comes from means that a non avangion trying to cast a limited wish, for instance, would drain the surrounding area of plant life to power the base portion of the spell.... but as there is an additional energy requirement the spell allows for the caster to tap their own life force (in terms of the 300+ xp) to fullfill the remaining energy requirement. This is actually part of the spell not part of the ability of the caster that allows them to do this. (otherwise a normal spellcaster would be able to augment any spell with xp.)
Now the energy reserve is a pool of life energy which the Avangion can use to power abilities.... but as it is a pool of energy the Avangion can use it to power not only its revitalize, but those spells and item creation feats that need additional amounts of energy.
At no point did I say the energy in the pool was exp.
{Edit} I don't have a problem with them draining magic items, that'd still be fine. If you were to go with a system like the one I mentioned above though, I would give them points based on the spells (and their levels) that are cast during item creation as opposed to the XP used.
Again as I said before though.... the spell level has alot less to do with the sheer level of energy put into a arcane item.
Unless we wanted to do an entire system based on how often the item can be used multiplied by spell level multiplied by caster level to figure out how much energy the item would actually have....
wait a minute we already have that in the item creation rules.... which is what determines the amount of gold cost and xp cost an item is.
again unless we are wanting to build a whole new complex system just to be able to figure out how much energy they get from an item.... (think about trying to drain items like staff of power for instance) you are going to have to base the amount off something from the item creation rules.... which normally means either the gold cost or the xp cost.... and as the xp cost represents the "power and energy that a spellcaster would normally keep is expended when making a magic item." it is the more viable number to go by.
It's all very well and good to restore Athas, but this ability won't do it. If an avangion used every point of his reserve pool for nothing but revitalization efforts for every level from 1-10, he would restore less than 1 square mile of athas. And this doesn't even consider the fact that large portions of Athas woul require several passes with the ability to really be considered "revitalized". This does not include additional points from magic items or other sources, but it's still a paltry amount of land.
I was compiling all the information for the bureau just now and came across this note from earlier... and it seemed wrong to me so I checked the math a bit
for each level here is the radius in feet of the total area that can be restored if you only use the energy pool to revitalize, without draining even one additional magic item whatsoever:
level 1: 2500 ft radius (just under half a mile radius)
level 2: 5000 ft radius (just under 1 mile radius)
level 3: 9000 ft radius (1.7 mile radius)
level 4: 12000 ft radius (2.27 mile radius)
level 5: 17500 ft radius (3.31 mile radius)
level 6: 21000 ft radius (3.98 mile radius)
level 7: 28000 ft radius (5.3 mile radius)
level 8: 32000 ft radius (6.06 mile radius)
level 9: 40500 ft radius (7.67 mile radius)
level 10: 45000 ft radius (8.53 mile radius)
total: 212500 ft (well over 40 miles though this would not be a radius as the ability must be done at each level indiviually not all at once))
So I am not seeing how exactly people are saying this ability would not make a huge change in athas even without using magic items to recharge it.
This is why allowing the use of xp to power the ability would overpower it..... because then an avangion could literally change the face of athas in a matter of months or years. but with the ability as it is, it works perfectly well with how new kurn is (as it is the only "known" home of an Avangion.)
frankly after looking at the math, I have to say... I think even switching it to ability damage would likely be a very bad idea as that heals daily (not to mention the use of spells or feats to heal it faster).... and would allow virtually unlimmited use of this.
but as there is an additional energy requirement the spell allows for the caster to tap their own life force (in terms of the 300+ xp) to fullfill the remaining energy requirement. This is actually part of the spell not part of the ability of the caster that allows them to do this. (otherwise a normal spellcaster would be able to augment any spell with xp.)
Now the energy reserve is a pool of life energy which the Avangion can use to power abilities.... but as it is a pool of energy the Avangion can use it to power not only its revitalize, but those spells and item creation feats that need additional amounts of energy.
At no point did I say the energy in the pool was exp.
But you are saying XP is energy. That's what you say in that first paragraph there.
In all times where you're talking about spells and crafting the two seem to be closely intertwined. The XP isn't the energy, but it's equivalent to the energy, but then the XP represents the energy that a caster puts into the crafting/spell. The PHB quote you've used basically says "energy that caster would keep is expended" and that is the XP cost. The XP is the energy.
The reserve continues this trend. The energy in the reserve can by used in place of XP for spells and crafting. If the XP you would spend normally, without a reserve, isn't energy then how are you substituting the energy from your reserve for it?
You've created an artificial dichotomy between XP and energy and then proceeded to say "They're different, but not in these cases. In these cases they're the same." Or if not the same, then that either can be used for the same purpose, which is very near to being the same. Then you go on to argue that because the reserve is energy, and not XP, and because those two are different (well except in every other case but the one we're about to get to) that you can't use XP to do one particular thing you can use the energy in your reserve to do.
The only situation where you can use the energy in your reserve but not your own XP is during the use of revitalize. In any other case where you can use your reserve you can substitute your own XP instead.
As far as the rules go, XP and Reserve energy are only different in that you can't revitalize with XP. So forgive me if I don't accept "XP and Reserve energy are different" as the reason why you can't revitalize with XP. It's circular logic.
Moreover, what greater sacrifice would there be than to have an avangion give his own energy (which we've established XP can be viewed as, given the PHB description of the XP cost's function during item creation) in order to undefile land. If anything using your own XP rather than some pool of free points seems more noble to me.
But I guess I'll stop arguing. If I haven't convinced you by now I'm not going to, and it's a fairly easy problem to fix with a house rule.
This is why allowing the use of xp to power the ability would overpower it..... because then an avangion could literally change the face of athas in a matter of months or years. but with the ability as it is, it works perfectly well with how new kurn is (as it is the only "known" home of an Avangion.)
Pfft, well you could've just mentioned the balance issues. I suppose that's fair.
(I still don't buy the IC explanation though.)
level 1: 2500 ft radius (just under half a mile radius)
level 2: 5000 ft radius (just under 1 mile radius)
level 3: 9000 ft radius (1.7 mile radius)
level 4: 12000 ft radius (2.27 mile radius)
level 5: 17500 ft radius (3.31 mile radius)
level 6: 21000 ft radius (3.98 mile radius)
level 7: 28000 ft radius (5.3 mile radius)
level 8: 32000 ft radius (6.06 mile radius)
level 9: 40500 ft radius (7.67 mile radius)
level 10: 45000 ft radius (8.53 mile radius)
This is 729 square miles...
{edit} Wait, I think you've done the math wrong. Radius isn't additive for area.
The area that the avangion can revitalize at every level is as follows:
39269 square feet at first (500 areas of 5' radius)
157079 square feet at second (500 areas of 10' radius)
424114 square feet at third (600 areas of 15' radius)
753981 square feet at fourth (600 areas of 20' radius)
1374445 square feet at fifth (700 areas of 25' radius)
1979201 square feet at sixth (700 areas of 30' radius)
3078758 square feet at seventh (800 areas of 35' radius)
4021235 square feet at eighth (800 areas of 40' radius)
5725547 square feet at ninth (900 areas of 45' radius)
7068577 square feet at tenth (900 areas of 50' radius)
or 24622211 total square feet, which is 0.88 square miles (which is about 560 acres)
And that's only increasing it one step. Going from defiled to abundant is five steps, so an avangion can do 112 acres or a very small farm. Even barren to abundant only gets you 140 acres of paradise.
Question.
Would an avangion be able to drain an arcane created construct with their magic draining and storage ability?
you know that is a very very good question.
I would say yes if it is just a construct. but no if it is a golem. (as golems are imbued with an elemental spirit.)
If the biggest concern is making over the face of athas in too short of a time, simply put a time limit on how often revitalize can be used.
Even once per day, the tenth level avangion is only turning 1.3 acres of barren land into abundant land a month.
I mean, the thing that every PC avangion really dreams of is remaking the face of Athas to be a verdant paradise. I'm not saying it should be easy, but it should be possible. (And in my opinion, possible without the complication or punitive gold piece cost of the craft item-drain item process.)
Actually a time limit should probably be added even if you don't let avangions use XP. As it is right now you can basically do all your revitalizing for an entire level's worth of Reserve in 50-90 seconds.
But you are saying XP is energy. That's what you say in that first paragraph there.
In all times where you're talking about spells and crafting the two seem to be closely intertwined. The XP isn't the energy, but it's equivalent to the energy, but then the XP represents the energy that a caster puts into the crafting/spell. The PHB quote you've used basically says "energy that caster would keep is expended" and that is the XP cost. The XP is the energy.
the PHB quote is stating is reffering to internal energy NOT magic energy. bio-electrical energy is not magic energy, nor is soul energy. The PHB leaves this as an undefined energy type needed to complete the creation of the magic item...
The reserve continues this trend. The energy in the reserve can by used in place of XP for spells and crafting. If the XP you would spend normally, without a reserve, isn't energy then how are you substituting the energy from your reserve for it?
Yes the energy in the reserve can be used in PLACE of the the energy that is converted from xp by the act of item creation and casting of certain spells... NOTE i have stated that these were exceptions of the general rule on the use of xp. The PHB is showing that the act of item creation or casting of certain spells drains said amount of xp to convert into energy needed to complete the item spell. The pool is a pool of energy that can be used in place of xp in these specific instances.... but there is no conversion method in place to allow the revitalize ability to drain xp in a manner similiar to the item creation feats or spells.
You've created an artificial dichotomy between XP and energy and then proceeded to say "They're different, but not in these cases. In these cases they're the same." Or if not the same, then that either can be used for the same purpose, which is very near to being the same. Then you go on to argue that because the reserve is energy, and not XP, and because those two are different (well except in every other case but the one we're about to get to) that you can't use XP to do one particular thing you can use the energy in your reserve to do.
First off... it is the PHB that allows for the specific exceptions to the rules that allow xp to be used for item creation and certain spells.... and it shows that ithe xp is converted into energy for this. We are only providing a pool of the energy that the xp is normally converted into. Therefor while it can be used to power the abilities that use that energy type.... there is no built in conversion method for an avangion to freely convert the xp into the energy.... though the item creation feats and spells allow them to still do it normally.
The only situation where you can use the energy in your reserve but not your own XP is during the use of revitalize. In any other case where you can use your reserve you can substitute your own XP instead.
As far as the rules go, XP and Reserve energy are only different in that you can't revitalize with XP. So forgive me if I don't accept "XP and Reserve energy are different" as the reason why you can't revitalize with XP. It's circular logic.
The difference is created by existing systems from the core rulebooks. By the books item creation and certain spells are exceptions to the rules on how xp can be used.... not the standard. Therefor by stating that the pool is energy that can be used in place of xp, does NOT automatically grant other abilities that use the pool free reign to use the xp of the character.
Saying that all arcane spells are magic.... does not make the reverse true. (as all magic is not arcane spells)
The same applies here as: energy from the energy reserve can be used in place of xp.... does NOT mean xp can be used in place of the energy pool.
Again the energy reserve does NOT allow you to convert the xp to the energy type. The act of item creation allows you to convert xp into the energy needed for a item... just as the spells allow you to convert.... but there is not an included class ability to convert the xp to energy directly to the reserve.
The revitalize ability uses the energy, it does not convert.
Moreover, what greater sacrifice would there be than to have an avangion give his own energy (which we've established XP can be viewed as, given the PHB description of the XP cost's function during item creation) in order to undefile land. If anything using your own XP rather than some pool of free points seems more noble to me.
But I guess I'll stop arguing. If I haven't convinced you by now I'm not going to, and it's a fairly easy problem to fix with a house rule.
The PHB does NOT specify that xp is energy but that it can be drained to grant energy in specific instances... not in the general. Just because it can be converted to energy during item creation DOES NOT mean it can be converted at all other times.
Also the PHB does not specify what the type of energy was, it only says internal energy which could just as likely be any one of a number of other things.
And plus xp is used in psionic and divine item creation too... that does NOT mean that life energy is part of those items creation.
you can of course house rule whatever you want.
Pfft, well you could've just mentioned the balance issues. I suppose that's fair.
(I still don't buy the IC explanation though.)
Actually I had mentioned the balance issues several times prior in previous posts on this
This is 729 square miles...
{edit} Wait, I think you've done the math wrong. Radius isn't additive for area.
The area that the avangion can revitalize at every level is as follows:
39269 square feet at first (500 areas of 5' radius)
157079 square feet at second (500 areas of 10' radius)
424114 square feet at third (600 areas of 15' radius)
753981 square feet at fourth (600 areas of 20' radius)
1374445 square feet at fifth (700 areas of 25' radius)
1979201 square feet at sixth (700 areas of 30' radius)
3078758 square feet at seventh (800 areas of 35' radius)
4021235 square feet at eighth (800 areas of 40' radius)
5725547 square feet at ninth (900 areas of 45' radius)
7068577 square feet at tenth (900 areas of 50' radius)
or 24622211 total square feet, which is 0.88 square miles (which is about 560 acres)
And that's only increasing it one step.
I will need to double check the wording on the version we put out, the wording is supposed to allow for the use of additional uses to increase the radius. 20 points allows for doubled, 30 triple, ect...
It was designed to allow for the creation of an area equivent to a city state and its surrounding enviroment if only the energy pool was used.
*sigh* the bad part about the first draft is all the typos and such.
I had a thought.
If the biggest concern is making over the face of athas in too short of a time, simply put a time limit on how often revitalize can be used.
Even once per day, the tenth level avangion is only turning 1.3 acres of barren land into abundant land a month.
I mean, the thing that every PC avangion really dreams of is remaking the face of Athas to be a verdant paradise. I'm not saying it should be easy, but it should be possible. (And in my opinion, possible without the complication or punitive gold piece cost of the craft item-drain item process.)
Actually a time limit should probably be added even if you don't let avangions use XP. As it is right now you can basically do all your revitalizing for an entire level's worth of Reserve in 50-90 seconds.
Actually this is a really good idea, I really like the time limit idea. I was compiling the first list of suggestions to the bureau from the boards just now.... when I saw you posted this.
btw I even add the suggestions I argue against, as it is a group effort not just one members *grin*
Wait, I think you've done the math wrong. Radius isn't additive for area.
or 24622211 total square feet, which is 0.88 square miles (which is about 560 acres)
This is what I did, based on how the ability reads now.
No one has any comments on the 5th level 2e spell that is better than the current setup for the revitalize ability?
This is what I did, based on how the ability reads now.
No one has any comments on the 5th level 2e spell that is better than the current setup for the revitalize ability?
As I said I will have to make sure a typo did not get in on the revitalize description, whch is likely considering the shere number of them we missed on updating to the current incarnation *wry grin*
actually we agreed that there were alot of easier ways to replenish the land. The revitalize was just a reverse form of defiling. Was never meant to be an end all power of the avangion.
I will need to double check the wording on the version we put out, the wording is supposed to allow for the use of additional uses to increase the radius. 20 points allows for doubled, 30 triple, ect...
It definitely doesn't say that now.
"Revitalize (Su): As a standard action, an Avangion can reverse the effects of defiling magic upon the land. When the avangion uses this ability, the terrain type increases to one category in a 5 foot radius/class level. (A defiled area becomes desolate.) Each use of this ability costs 10 points from the Avangions Energy Reserve. "
It should be something like 5 foot radius/class level per 10 points spent to get the effect your describing.
But again, you run into the problem that something like this very heavily encourages (almost forces) the avangion to spend all of their craft reserve in one fell swoop to revitalize. Because the area increases hyperbolically, if you can indeed add additional radius by spending more points in one go, then, well you've seen the difference it makes. 729 square miles vs. 0.88 square miles.
actually we agreed that there were alot of easier ways to replenish the land. The revitalize was just a reverse form of defiling.
This is a really interesting concept, but I was thinking. What if it's not something you have to actually, actively do?
What if, when an avangion spends his craft reserve on epic spells or crafting magic items, the revitalizing just happens? Sort of, like it is the anti-defiling. The avangion simply gives back to the land during the casting of stuff. Is that crazy?
It definitely doesn't say that now.
"Revitalize (Su): As a standard action, an Avangion can reverse the effects of defiling magic upon the land. When the avangion uses this ability, the terrain type increases to one category in a 5 foot radius/class level. (A defiled area becomes desolate.) Each use of this ability costs 10 points from the Avangions Energy Reserve. "
It should be something like 5 foot radius/class level per 10 points spent to get the effect your describing.
But again, you run into the problem that something like this very heavily encourages (almost forces) the avangion to spend all of their craft reserve in one fell swoop to revitalize. Because the area increases hyperbolically, if you can indeed add additional radius by spending more points in one go, then, well you've seen the difference it makes. 729 square miles vs. 0.88 square miles.
either way it looks like this ability may need some work.
This is a really interesting concept, but I was thinking. What if it's not something you have to actually, actively do?
What if, when an avangion spends his craft reserve on epic spells or crafting magic items, the revitalizing just happens? Sort of, like it is the anti-defiling. The avangion simply gives back to the land during the casting of stuff. Is that crazy?
I will bring this up to the bureau as well.... I posted a long message in the bureau compiling all the suggestions (even the ones I disagree with) last night/this morning. We were quite serious about wanting feedback on this one.
But this may be a good solution to some of the problems on the ability.
We will see how it evolves.
Umm penn, this is just a logical extension of way magic works in dark sun and to not allow the pool to be used for spells and magic item creation would make no sense.
But I want to be right..I'm ALWAYS right!
...I don't like you anymore...
Both the Avangion and the Dragon only receive effective caster/manifester levels, which don't grant them additional spells, power points, new known spells or powers. Because you qualify for the PrC's by being able to cast 9th level arcane and 6th level psionic spells, it seems quite likely that a dragon/avangion will be stuck casting 6th level psionics for quite a long time, possibly forever if they just continue with these two PrC's. Any justification for this?
For the Dragon... yes. The Dragon tends to push more towards physical combat, and thus as a balancing effort, seeing them have to develop the Psionics separately would make some sense.
For the Avangion... this is actually something currently being discussed in the bureau. The proposal I did was every other level, they advance their psionic manifester level like normal (I've considered every level, but I dunno if that is too powerful yet). The Avangion's counterbalance to this is of course their weaker to eventual complete lack of physical capabilities.
Basically.... I'm seeing that the Avangions would be a bit tougher on the Psionics side than Dragons would be.
A Wizard 7/Psion 3/ Cerebmancer 10 that became a Avangion wouldn't even have enough power points to cast the higher metamorphosis spells unless they took a detour and gained a level in psion rather than Avangion, which requires 150-160 power points. A 20th level psychic warrior would never have enough power points to cast the top tier metamorphosis. Something is not built right if they cant just make a direct progression through the levels, albeit a difficult progression. It seems to be bad mechanics to have to rely on bonus power points from high stats to be able to progress in the class - if so, why not just make it a requirment in the first place?
Which is why we're working on it, and this release was to get feedback from the community on how to approach things. While I'm strictly against altering the requirements for Avangions to bump up the psionic class levels (either through manifester levels, or power levels), I'm definitely intrigued and looking into assisting the Avangion through the process to become more fully-developed in psionics by the end (much like how the Dragon becomes more physically capable and developed in physical areas through the metamorphosis).
Also... understand that I personally still more or less see the Cerebrmancer as a "shortcut" to becoming an Advanced Being (Dragon or Avangion). This is my own opinion, and others have a different viewpoint on it, but for me, comparing against the "quickest path" to becoming an Avangion, isn't enough. Avangions (more than Dragons) just don't scream "quick and easy path" to me.
Both the Avangion and the Dragon only receive effective caster/manifester levels, which don't grant them additional spells, power points, new known spells or powers. Because you qualify for the PrC's by being able to cast 9th level arcane and 6th level psionic spells, it seems quite likely that a dragon/avangion will be stuck casting 6th level psionics for quite a long time, possibly forever if they just continue with these two PrC's. Any justification for this?
Hmmm, thinking on that now... I personally have a great dislike for progressions that give you CL/ML buffs but don't actually do anything else. I know this is partially to balance out the metamorphosis spells, but I still think both the Avangion and Dragon PrC should get more spells/powers as their power heightens. I'm hoping that when my preserver gets high enough level to think about Avangion metamorphasis, that my DM will add in additional powers/spells.
[Edit] I do however understand there is nothing forcing anyone to take the Avangion PrC, it just would be foolish not to at least take a couple levels in it.
-X
Hmmm, thinking on that now... I personally have a great dislike for progressions that give you CL/ML buffs but don't actually do anything else. I know this is partially to balance out the metamorphosis spells, but I still think both the Avangion and Dragon PrC should get more spells/powers as their power heightens. I'm hoping that when my preserver gets high enough level to think about Avangion metamorphasis, that my DM will add in additional powers/spells.
[Edit] I do however understand there is nothing forcing anyone to take the Avangion PrC, it just would be foolish not to at least take a couple levels in it.
-X
Understand that for Dragons and Avangions, the effective level increase for Arcane spellcasting really doesn't matter -- because Epic spellcasters (actual spellcaster level 21+) don't get more spells, spell slots, or anything. For a wizard, you'll be level 17 at minimum when you start the process. So, that is 3 levels of wizard to consider finishing if you so desire -- otherwise, your spellcaster level just increases in a way similar to how it increases for level 21+.
For the psionic manifester, bear in mind that Dragons gain significant physical advantages through the metamorphosis, which must be taken into account when comparing them against other equivalent-level epic characters, especially the Avangion (which loses a lot physically). The Avangion, I feel, should be able to advance somewhat normally (if not at a slower pace than a normal psionic class, to reflect the lack of focus on psionics at that point) through the psionic manifester levels, to actually develop themselves into real epic psionic manifesters.
I will then agree that Avangions should get manifester levels and powers/power points then to make them equivalent to their formidable arcane talent; that would go a long way towards putting them on par with Dragons and their physical prowess.
-X
Okay, that makes sense then. I forgot that Epic Casters don't get more spells. I thought they got more slots though, for metamagic'd spells and such. I seem to recall in the FR campaign setting book Elminster having a spell progression that looked about a foot long.
I will then agree that Avangions should get manifester levels and powers/power points then to make them equivalent to their formidable arcane talent; that would go a long way towards putting them on par with Dragons and their physical prowess.
-X
Elminster's progression looked impressive, because there are feats that can increase your number of spell slots, as well as the levels of those slots, for purposes of metamagic feats. But that is all feats and not by virtue of the class. I want to say there is some sort of increase in power points for epic-level psionic manifesters or something like that (it could just be the number of power points they can use per power).
Elminster's progression looked impressive, because there are feats that can increase your number of spell slots, as well as the levels of those slots, for purposes of metamagic feats. But that is all feats and not by virtue of the class. I want to say there is some sort of increase in power points for epic-level psionic manifesters or something like that (it could just be the number of power points they can use per power).
That would in fact, make sense. Okay. As far as XPH is concerned, those feats are found on pg 34.
Now I pine for the revision on the Avangion... my preserver is getting into the middle-teens in level and oh what fun we shall have :D
Thanks Xlorep!
-X
Since constitution is the one attribute that if ever reduced to 0, you are dead.
But yea, I like the idea of giving Avangions progression in their psionic powers in exchange for the massive physical prowess gained by the Dragons.
Also, an Idea for an avangion psionic enchantment - What about being able to counterspell using psionic powers and counterspelling powers with spells?
I agree with you on the point that giving a buff to Avangions to increase their psionic casting would make them more on par with the Dragons. Something needs to be done about the discrepancy between the requirements for entry into the class and the requirements for casting the metamorphosis spells. The ability to cast 6th level manifester spells does not give the Dragon/Avangion power points enough to cast the top tier metamorphosis spells. Because they don't gain anymore power points by advancing through the Dragon/Avangion PrC's, they will never qualify unless they take a detour to gain more power points by taking a level in Psion? If a PrC is built so you need to gain a level in something else to progress to the next level in said PrC something is wrong. If this is to be maintained, the initial requirements of the PrC should be changed to reflect this, by maybe upping the manifester requirement to level 7 powers. I think that the 6th level manifester requirement is just fine, and would propose just changing the metamorphsis spells themselves. Also, the Avangions/Dragons were supposed to remain an option for Psychic warriors. However, a 20th level Psychic Warrior wouldnt have enough power points to cast the 6th metamorphosis or higher.
But yea, I like the idea of giving Avangions progression in their psionic powers in exchange for the massive physical prowess gained by the Dragons.
I'll have to look at the dragon metamorphosis. I thought we didn't have a power point requirement... or there is ways to store power points in items for later use in these spells. The psychic warrior should be an option for both... but honestly, I think that it would make more sense for a psychic warrior to head towards dragon and be able to use the physical ablities that character has to offer. One heading down the path to avangion... while I feel it should be possible... is basically an individual sacrificing much of the psychic warrior's advantages. Not exactly the most effective path to take, but someone might still want to be able to do that, for roleplaying reasons.
Also, an Idea for an avangion psionic enchantment - What about being able to counterspell using psionic powers and counterspelling powers with spells?
Actually, that was something among the original proposal I had made with this variation on psionic enchantments.... just not exclusive to avangions. The whole idea being to "blur the line" between magic and psionics for Advanced Beings in general.
"Casting this spell requires the caster to expend his psionic focus and lose 160 power points. If the caster is unable to lose the 160 power points, the spell immediately fails." This is from Metamorphosis X, and the spells follow a standard progression up to 160 in both the Avangion and Dragon versions.
Well, as the psychic warrior has a maximum power level of 6th, then a psychic warrior would have access to this: Improved Manifestation (bear in mind that the forums obliterate anything in the link I just gave that is from a pound '#' sign or later, so it won't jump right to that feat, but it is on that page). The other classes wouldn't quite make it yet, because they hadn't reached maximum power level (I believe they need what, 6 more levels in either wilder or psion to get the maximum power level for their respective classes), but they would have more power points to work with anyway. That said, I thought there was something which psions could use to store power points, and then retrieve them for power usage later. I was envisioning for Advanced Beings that they would store a ton of points away, and then basically use them as part of the components for casting the metamorphosis spells (possibly destroying the containers holding the power points as well).
Also, although I like the idea for the revitalize power, the psionic enchantment Replenish the Green does not seem to be a very effective power. Combat would be when it would most likely be used, and if it was, the Avangion is just providing more fuel for Defilers to burn in combat. I think they are good ideas, but the mechanics are a little funky still.
Also, although I like the idea for the revitalize power, the psionic enchantment Replenish the Green does not seem to be a very effective power. Combat would be when it would most likely be used, and if it was, the Avangion is just providing more fuel for Defilers to burn in combat. I think they are good ideas, but the mechanics are a little funky still.
I'm not overly sold ion that particular ability myself. I think it is overkill, but I've not been able tocome up with a counter argument/better idea yet.
In response above, if they need to take a feat to be able to make use of the class, it should be including in the requirements in the first place. Its funky mechanics to make them take a feat to be able to progress, if its not included in the intitial requirements.
Remember there's a difference between the class and the spells that actually change the character. They don't need to cast the spells to advance and hence they don't need too many PPs to advance in the class. Just the initial 100 to cast the first spell. A psion can do this as soon as they are able to manifest 6th level powers, and psychic warriors, they might need a feat or an extra level, if they don't have enough bonus PPs from high ability scores.
But as for the class, once you're in, you're in.
In response above, if they need to take a feat to be able to make use of the class, it should be including in the requirements in the first place. Its funky mechanics to make them take a feat to be able to progress, if its not included in the intitial requirements.
But not everyone will need the feat.
If someone takes additional levels of a psionic class in the middle of their progression as avangion or dragon, they don't need the feat. The requirement is X number of power points, not a feat that gives you more power points. Sure you could use the feat to achieve the appropriate number of power points, but it's not the feat itself that's really necessary.
Remember there's a difference between the class and the spells that actually change the character. They don't need to cast the spells to advance and hence they don't need too many PPs to advance in the class. Just the initial 100 to cast the first spell. A psion can do this as soon as they are able to manifest 6th level powers, and psychic warriors, they might need a feat or an extra level, if they don't have enough bonus PPs from high ability scores.
I think this is kind of a cop out. They are one and the same in concept. The purpose of the PrC and the spell is to recreate what we think would really work as a advanced being. It just happens that to recreate this conception of an advanced being, both a PrC and a set of spells is necessary to create this intricate idea.
If someone takes additional levels of a psionic class in the middle of their progression as avangion or dragon, they don't need the feat. The requirement is X number of power points, not a feat that gives you more power points. Sure you could use the feat to achieve the appropriate number of power points, but it's not the feat itself that's really necessary.
Again, although the spell and PrC are separate, they are the same in concept and two necessary parts of the same concept. I dont think the PrC should be interrupted to take another class because you don't have enough power points to make the next transformation. It doesn't function well at all. The PrC and spells should be designed with each other in mind. I'd hate to have one of my Pc's start transforming into a Dragon/Avangion and then realize that they dont have enough PP's to cast the next spell, have to take another level in Psion (hopefully just one level, psychic warriors have a real problem), and then come back to Dragon/Avangion PrC. Talk about annoying.
Also, about the Revitalize ability - some clarification. Does it just restore previously defiled land, or can any land be transformed? Is the plant life created magical in nature? Is it self sustaining? If a Avangion Revitalizes a swath of land in te middle of scorching sands, is the plant life going to wither and die from lack of water, or is it magical and self sustaining? If it is magical, is it permanently self-sustaining?
I think this is kind of a cop out. They are one and the same in concept. The purpose of the PrC and the spell is to recreate what we think would really work as a advanced being. It just happens that to recreate this conception of an advanced being, both a PrC and a set of spells is necessary to create this intricate idea.
First off, no it is not a cop out... the spells take care of the physical changes, the PrC concerns learning to use the powers gained through your new nature.
Heck from the descriptions of most of the SK's alone they would have pretty decent levels in the dragon PrC, plus several other classes by the description... and they are for the most part only in the early stages of the metamorphosis.
Again, although the spell and PrC are separate, they are the same in concept and two necessary parts of the same concept. I dont think the PrC should be interrupted to take another class because you don't have enough power points to make the next transformation. It doesn't function well at all. The PrC and spells should be designed with each other in mind. I'd hate to have one of my Pc's start transforming into a Dragon/Avangion and then realize that they dont have enough PP's to cast the next spell, have to take another level in Psion (hopefully just one level, psychic warriors have a real problem), and then come back to Dragon/Avangion PrC. Talk about annoying.
First off note, if a character is shortcutting their transformation into an advanced being, yes they might have to play catch up by either taking feats, additional classes, or even storing up the extra power points to be able to complete the spells. This is because they took shortcuts, not because of inherent problems in the spells/PrC.
And starting the transformation at either:
wizard 8/psion 3/cerebramancer 10
or
wizard 7/psychic warrior 6/cerebramancer 10
(which are the absolute minimum levels needed to start in the class) is shortcutting to try and start out early. As the original versions had the characters being equivilent to both 20 level characters in both classes. And the very minimum level needed to have them be masters of both classes would be
wizard 7/psion 7/cerebramancer 10.
Plus also note while it is possible for a psychic warrior to make either progression, most characters doing the metamorphosis sequences would be wizard/psions as it is easier for them to complete the transformation. So the fact that a psychic warrior may need improved manifestation has nothing to do with the actual prerequisites.
Add to this we are looking at possibly having the Avangions (not the dragons but the avangions only) to be gaining actual increases in arcane caster class and manifester class at alternating levels and gaining the caster level increases at the other. Which would mean that an avangion at least would be increasing in the psionic ability to get more power points and higher level powers without multiclassing.
Also, about the Revitalize ability - some clarification. Does it just restore previously defiled land, or can any land be transformed? Is the plant life created magical in nature? Is it self sustaining? If a Avangion Revitalizes a swath of land in te middle of scorching sands, is the plant life going to wither and die from lack of water, or is it magical and self sustaining? If it is magical, is it permanently self-sustaining?
it can be used on any land, not just defiled land.... the plant life is natural and if the climate does not allow for it, it will eventually either thrive or die depending on the actual climate and water conditions...... if you make a forest in the desert with not base water source it will eventually return to being a desert.
First off note, if a character is shortcutting their transformation into an advanced being, yes they might have to play catch up by either taking feats, additional classes, or even storing up the extra power points to be able to complete the spells. This is because they took shortcuts, not because of inherent problems in the spells/PrC.
Alright, lets consider a Wizard 17/Psion 13, which makes the minimum requirements for access to the PrC. This build does not have enough power points either, and I would hardly consider it shortcutting. The requirement to manifest 6th level powers does not grant enough power points in all builds I can think of that reach this requirement. If a higher level is required to make use of this PrC, make the intitial requirement higher. All im trying to argue for is that once you make the requirements for the PrC you shouldnt have to meet additional requirements later on. Yes, the PrC and spells are separate but they are two necessary parts to the SAME concept. Right now there is discrepancy between the two. If you meet the requirements for one, you should be able to meet the requirements for the other. And if you need to meet additional requirements later on, there should be mechanics for doing so, such as stored power points, or something.
Remember there's a difference between the class and the spells that actually change the character. They don't need to cast the spells to advance and hence they don't need too many PPs to advance in the class. Just the initial 100 to cast the first spell. A psion can do this as soon as they are able to manifest 6th level powers, and psychic warriors, they might need a feat or an extra level, if they don't have enough bonus PPs from high ability scores.
I think this is kind of a cop out. They are one and the same in concept. The purpose of the PrC and the spell is to recreate what we think would really work as a advanced being. It just happens that to recreate this conception of an advanced being, both a PrC and a set of spells is necessary to create this intricate idea.
I meant that it was a cop out just to say that they are two different things, the PrC and the spells. Rather, they both are needed to create what we all find acceptable as a Advanced Being. A PrC alone cant do it, and the spells alone cant do it. Its a cop out to say they are entirely separate, the mechanics of the spells should support the PrC and vice versa. I dont think anyone really intended someone to advance in one without the other. A level 10 Dragon with just stage 1 metamorphosis? Level 10 Avangion with just stage 1? Instead, lets try to make the spells and PrC fit each other better, so we don't leave one without the other.
Alright, lets consider a Wizard 17/Psion 13, which makes the minimum requirements for access to the PrC. This build does not have enough power points either, and I would hardly consider it shortcutting. All im trying to argue for is that once you make the requirements for the PrC you shouldnt have to meet additional requirements later on. Yes, the PrC and spells are separate but they are two necessary parts to the SAME concept. Right now there is discrepancy between the two. If you meet the requirements for one, you should be able to meet the requirements for the other. And if you need to meet additional requirements later on, there should be mechanics for doing so, such as stored power points, or something.
Sorry, but you are arguing that the character should develop in a vacuum. Should the individual spells all have the same requirements, in order to ensure that a character could cast them all without worry?
So the character needs some additional help to get the necessary power points. Whoop-de-doo-da, is all I'm thinking. So you have to look for creative ways to accomplish it. You want the spells and the PrC to be treated the same, but it just won't happen. The spells existed in the 2e mechanics -- 10 of them, and they were intrinsicly connected to the the advancement of the class (can't advance a level without casting the required spell). That mechanic just doesn't work for 3/3.5e at all. The two are separate -- there is really no requirement to cast the spells at any specific time (after the first, of course), once you have taken levels of the PrC. It could be every level, it could be every other level, hell it could be every ten levels. And you know what, you could take levels in something else. There is a complete free-form nature to it all in that regard. Now, for all of that, requiring a possible addition of a few more levels in a psionic manifesting class really is not much. It is almost like you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
I am making a mountain out of an anthill, unfortunately. Im trying to provide some good critique of the current mechanics so it can be revised and improved. I noticed incongruancies between the spells and the abilities of a character who meets the requirements for the PrC. All im suggesting is a few solutions. I think it is something important. Isn't the goal to make these classes packaged in an effective manner so that any DM can pick up these rules and play with them? What if they miss the fineprint about the power points and one of their characters can't continue with progression in their character concept - they need to detour to pick up a level of psion, or whatever, to be able to cast the higher tier spells. Good rules design should eliminate all these chances for confusion and frustration.
I think your right in that regard, that the spells shouldn't be easily castable. But, the power points necessary to cast the spell present a problem for a character who (once they reach Avangion/Dragon PrC) only wants to advance in said class. Having to switch to gain another class level in something to have access to the spells misses the point. If there should be requirements for the spells, they should be related to the PrC's themselves. The power points is something easily fixable.
I am making a mountain out of an anthill, unfortunately. Im trying to provide some good critique of the current mechanics so it can be revised and improved. I noticed incongruancies between the spells and the abilities of a character who meets the requirements for the PrC. All im suggesting is a few solutions. I think it is something important. Isn't the goal to make these classes packaged in an effective manner so that any DM can pick up these rules and play with them? What if they miss the fineprint about the power points and one of their characters can't continue with progression in their character concept - they need to detour to pick up a level of psion, or whatever, to be able to cast the higher tier spells. Good rules design should eliminate all these chances for confusion and frustration.
Well, understand your questions, concerns, etc. are being delivered to the epic bureau, despite misgivings or problems seker aor I may have with it. So it still is good to question this. I can kind of see what you are getting at, but at the same time... I'm still uncertain if it really is of that great an importance.
It really depresses me to have to ask this, but if I don't, I bet no one else will, because they should all know already. Does the increasing of PrC levels and stages stay separate? Could I be a Wizard##/Psion##/Avangion 6 at the 3rd stage of transformation, or a Wizard##/Psion##/Avangion 3 at the 7th stage of transformation? It seems that even the SK's aren't finished transforming, but that doesn't automatically mean their level in Dragon PrC is equally low. If I'm going off in a weird direction, well I can live with it.
Alright, lets consider a Wizard 17/Psion 13, which makes the minimum requirements for access to the PrC. This build does not have enough power points either, and I would hardly consider it shortcutting. The requirement to manifest 6th level powers does not grant enough power points in all builds I can think of that reach this requirement. If a higher level is required to make use of this PrC, make the intitial requirement higher. All im trying to argue for is that once you make the requirements for the PrC you shouldnt have to meet additional requirements later on. Yes, the PrC and spells are separate but they are two necessary parts to the SAME concept. Right now there is discrepancy between the two. If you meet the requirements for one, you should be able to meet the requirements for the other. And if you need to meet additional requirements later on, there should be mechanics for doing so, such as stored power points, or something.
Actually that would be shortcutting, I am not reffering to the use of the cerebramancer as shortcutting I am reffering to the use of the psychc warrior class or the fact of not actually going to max psionic ability (or at the very least getting to the highest level of psionic powers) prior to making the transformation. It is possible for a character to begin the path towards an advanced being prior to that.... it does not make them possible to complete all of them.
Remember I said that a character would need to be a minimum of wizard 7/psion 7/cerebramancer 10 to actually be the minimum equivilent of what they were in 2nd edition. (and with the practiced spellcaster and practiced manifester feats, this character would cast and manifest both at 21st level... which keeps them right in line almost with a straight caster/manifester.) and a character with these requirements would be able to cast every last one of the spells..... though even then they would NOT be able to even successfully cast the final spells without something granting them a HUGE spellcraft check bonus as the DC for the last spell has a DC of 80... (and a 24th level character before items and other bonuses from feats has a max spellcraft of 27)
Also note, even a character shortcutting by wizard 8/psion 3/cerebramancer 10 WILL be able to meet the requirements for all 10 spells, psionic points wise.
level 13 psion = 147 plus bonus for ability score.
As a psion uses int for the ability score, the character will automatically meet the requirement. After all to be able to cast epic spells as a wizard they must already have a 20+ int. (remember you must have 10+spell level in the attribute to cast a given spell and a epic spell is considered a 10th level spell.)
Bonus power points for a psion with 20 int = 32
so a 13th level psion with 20 int has 179 power points.... and the final spell only requires 160
Now a psychic warrior would need to go for additional feats, massively high wisdom, or extra levels to meet the requirements... BUT the classes are not designed mainly for a psychic warrior.... It is just Possible to use them to take the class.
Heck it is possible for a bard to take the archmage PrC, but it would require them either being epic level and taking an epic level feats (improved spell capacity), or taking the sublime chord PrC to do it.... does this mean that the archmage class requirements should change? No... it just means characters of a sub optimal class combination must work harder to meet the requirements.
Going back to the DC of the spellcraft checks on the spells, we are going to use the fastest possible combination.
a wizard 8/psion 3/cerebramancer 10 (with a 20 int.)
First spell: base score 24 + 5 for ability modifier, means the character needs a 21+ on the roll to even complete the first spell, let alone the others which increase in DC every stage.
This means they would need items or other feats to even attempt to cast the spell.
(however note casting all 10 spells at the pristine tower would easily allow a character to meet the spellcraft requirement of all 10 spells as it gives you a +50 on spellcraft checks)
Personally, I don't really see a problem with having to detour in between. It kind of reflects the whole "I figured out how to do this step, now I need to figure out the next one." Also, the high cost isn't so bad. Something must prevent mighty Sorcerer-Kings, with ages of time and all the resources available, from progressing further than they seemingly have, transformation-wise.
It really depresses me to have to ask this, but if I don't, I bet no one else will, because they should all know already. Does the increasing of PrC levels and stages stay separate? Could I be a Wizard##/Psion##/Avangion 6 at the 3rd stage of transformation, or a Wizard##/Psion##/Avangion 3 at the 7th stage of transformation? It seems that even the SK's aren't finished transforming, but that doesn't automatically mean their level in Dragon PrC is equally low. If I'm going off in a weird direction, well I can live with it.
Actually the PrC and the spell stage are not linked at all (save the fact that stages 2-10 require a minimum of 1 level in the PrC, as the spells require the use of dragon magic/avangion magic respectively to cast the later spell.)
so you could have a wizard 8/psion 3/cerebramancer 10/dragon 1 that has cast all 10 spells and has completed the transformation (note this would mean they had something major to let them get those spellcraft checks though) into a dragon
or you could have a wizard 7/psion 7/cerebramancer 10/avangion 30 that has only ever cast the first spell.
so yes the spells and the class are seperate in all things save that you must have a minimum of 1 level in the PrC to cast the 2nd and higher spells. And you must have cast the first spell to even be able to take the PrC.
Aside from simply being a plot hook, how could Fevil have managed it had he gotten his hands on Korgunard, in the light of the new PrC?
In the Arcane Shadows adventure the defiler Fevil sends his cronny to capture Korgunard on the account that he'll be able to use him as a renewable source of life energy for his spellcasting.
Aside from simply being a plot hook, how could Fevil have managed it had he gotten his hands on Korgunard, in the light of the new PrC?
well by the current write up both revitalize and the energy pool features work well for that.
on my own versions of dragons and avangions, I have dragon magic doing con damage to gain energy.... and as my version of avangions have to have mind over body they heal quicker from it. Plus they treat areas as at least one terrain level higher for casting purposes... a defiler could easily learn to tap into a avangion with item or such to make them a battery they can always draw on
level 13 psion = 147 plus bonus for ability score.
As a psion uses int for the ability score, the character will automatically meet the requirement. After all to be able to cast epic spells as a wizard they must already have a 20+ int. (remember you must have 10+spell level in the attribute to cast a given spell and a epic spell is considered a 10th level spell.)
Bonus power points for a psion with 20 int = 32
so a 13th level psion with 20 int has 179 power points.... and the final spell only requires 160
Heck it is possible for a bard to take the archmage PrC, but it would require them either being epic level and taking an epic level feats (improved spell capacity), or taking the sublime chord PrC to do it.... does this mean that the archmage class requirements should change? No... it just means characters of a sub optimal class combination must work harder to meet the requirements.
True, it is highly unlikely that a Wizard/Psion/Cemancer that qualifies for the PrC wouldn't have enough power points for bonus points due to high stats. I think im arguing over an issue of formatting and design. Rather than make some of the requirements 'hidden' in the mechanics of the spells/PrC, make them explicit, so that once someone qualifies for the PrC they never have to worry about something like taking different class levels just to progress. There should be something explicit, so that Psychic Warriors can have a chance at finishing the PrC without making a detour once they meet the initial requirements for the PrC. The Bard who goes for Archmage PrC, and who finally meets the requirements for that PrC and takes the class doesnt have to go and get a new level in Wizard right in the middle of his Archmage progression. Yes it was hard for the Bard to make it to Archmage, but once he does, hes fine. Not so with Psychic Warriors and Avangions/Dragons, they can meet the initial requirements, but end up hitting some hidden roadblocks later on. Anyone that meets the initial requirements for the Avangion/Dragon PrC's should be able to make use of the PrC/spells. Right now, this is not the case. Psychic Warriors can meet the requirements but are not able to progress very far along in the spells. The spell and PrC mechanics should compliment each other so that if you meet the requirements for one, you can reasonably meet the requirements for the other. I don't consider taking a detour to level up in other class levels a reasonable step to meet the requirements for the spells. The mechanics should be a little more explicit so that the initial requirements rule out any of these problems, or the other rules should do the same, such as by lowering the power point cost, or providing some mechanic for circumventing it.
If the would be avangion/dragon took the practiced manifester feat from Complete Psionic they would gain bonus power points from high abililty modifers for their non-epic/non-manifester class levels. I realize this won't grant that much in the way of power points but it will grant up 4 levels (for each non-manifesting class that thefeat is taken for) of bonus power points.
Going back to the DC of the spellcraft checks on the spells, we are going to use the fastest possible combination.
a wizard 8/psion 3/cerebramancer 10 (with a 20 int.)
First spell: base score 24 + 5 for ability modifier, means the character needs a 21+ on the roll to even complete the first spell, let alone the others which increase in DC every stage.
This means they would need items or other feats to even attempt to cast the spell.
(however note casting all 10 spells at the pristine tower would easily allow a character to meet the spellcraft requirement of all 10 spells as it gives you a +50 on spellcraft checks)
Question for you seker: Can you take 20 on the spellcraft check? If so, it would be a lot more approachable.
-X
Its not OGL material so it can't be used as a prereq for the PrC.
Also doesn't give you bonus power points, so it's moot.
-X
Question for you seker: Can you take 20 on the spellcraft check? If so, it would be a lot more approachable.
-X
You can't take 20 when there are consequences to failure. You can take 10 however.
Epic spells with DCs higher than 10 + the spellcaster’s Spellcraft modifier are risky; a caster can take 10 when casting an epic spell, but he or she can’t take 20. When routinely casting epic spells, most spellcasters take 10 on their Spellcraft checks.
True, it is highly unlikely that a Wizard/Psion/Cemancer that qualifies for the PrC wouldn't have enough power points for bonus points due to high stats. I think im arguing over an issue of formatting and design. Rather than make some of the requirements 'hidden' in the mechanics of the spells/PrC, make them explicit, so that once someone qualifies for the PrC they never have to worry about something like taking different class levels just to progress. There should be something explicit, so that Psychic Warriors can have a chance at finishing the PrC without making a detour once they meet the initial requirements for the PrC. The Bard who goes for Archmage PrC, and who finally meets the requirements for that PrC and takes the class doesnt have to go and get a new level in Wizard right in the middle of his Archmage progression. Yes it was hard for the Bard to make it to Archmage, but once he does, hes fine. Not so with Psychic Warriors and Avangions/Dragons, they can meet the initial requirements, but end up hitting some hidden roadblocks later on. Anyone that meets the initial requirements for the Avangion/Dragon PrC's should be able to make use of the PrC/spells. Right now, this is not the case. Psychic Warriors can meet the requirements but are not able to progress very far along in the spells. The spell and PrC mechanics should compliment each other so that if you meet the requirements for one, you can reasonably meet the requirements for the other. I don't consider taking a detour to level up in other class levels a reasonable step to meet the requirements for the spells. The mechanics should be a little more explicit so that the initial requirements rule out any of these problems, or the other rules should do the same, such as by lowering the power point cost, or providing some mechanic for circumventing it.
Okay, now I understand what you mean by wanting it spelled out and possible from the start. And I am sorry but you are trying to see the 10 spells as being like a PrC.... They are not... they are 10 seperate epic spells.... the only thing that links them is the fact that each one requires you to have cast the prior ones to be able to cast them.
That is NOT a hidden roadblock, that is just a matter of spell requirements.
Again a psion/wizard can complete the sequence without ever having to take other classes, feats, etc.. It is ONLY when you try and take a non standard combination to reach the spells that you have a problem.
And there is NOTHING hidden about this, the psionic point cost is a requirement of the spells, period. If a caster cannot meet the requirements of a spell they cannot cast it period.
Note as the spells are using the standard epic spell creation rules it would be just as easy for the a non personal version of the spells be researched to cast them on another creature instead of yourself. Sooooo if as per the fluff the other SK's cast the spells on Borys to make him a dragon, he would not have to had to have the Power points to cast the spell himself for the later levels. And as there is no other SK that was based on the psychic warrior class that have attempted to complete the transformation all the way through, there is no reason even by the fluff to lower those costs or add extra requirements which ARE NOT NEEDED for the main class combination that makes the metamorphosis.
You are asking us to increase the requirements for all so they can all meet the requirements of the spells, when the only ones that cannot meet it is a sup optimal class combination. That is not how PrC's and such are written in 3.5.... they are written with the bare minimum requirements, for the anyone to enter, not all the extra stuff that some may need.
By the way, I can understand why the spells should require some expenditure of power points, but it doesn't seem that that is a mitigating factor according to the DC calculations that I can see. Why is that? If there's no benefit from or necessity of spending the power points according to the spell creation rules, why do you have to?
the power point expenditure is part of the metamorphosis seed. Any spell created with the seed requires an expenditure of double the final spellcraft DC of the spell to cast the spell. It has to do with why we are allowing the seed to make the instantainious duration on it. And it is keeping it with the requirements from 2nd edition of the spells requiring mastery of both psionics and arcane magic to cast. The seed can also only be used for magical spells. (and to be honest I am pushing for it in the bureau to only be arcane epic spells. Though the mythal seed was only magic in forgotten realms so we at least have rule precedent there for the seed requirement.)
We used this as a balancing ability also to prevent a straight wizrad from gaining all the advantages of the spells without ever learning a single power.
-X
Maybe it's just me, but where is this metamorphasis seed? I checked the epic rules and I don't see it on the list of seeds for epic spells. Is this something that you folks over at athas.org have made and I just haven't noticed it, or is it still in the works?
-X
Actually this is something we get asked alot. The metamorphosis seed is a seed that as designed for the unique nature of these transformations and for how magic and psionics interact all together for Athas. (which is slighlty different to other worlds as the magic is seriously different)
It is a seed for creating massive changes on an instantainious duration, which means it cannot be dispelled. It is designed not only for the dragons and avangion metamorphosi.... but also as a monster creation seed. It allows for the alteration of creatures on a base level. (think what dregoth did to make the dray.)
We have a working version of the seed (which is what we have been building the spells with) but we are not realeasing the seed itself untill we verify it is balanced vs all the other aspects of the epic rules we are building up.
And there is NOTHING hidden about this, the psionic point cost is a requirement of the spells, period. If a caster cannot meet the requirements of a spell they cannot cast it period.
I think there is, because someone gaining entry and meeting the initial requirements of the PrC will assume that they would be able to cast the metamorphosis spells with no large barriers. Unless they have read every single spell before taking the class, they might assume that the PrC will give them everything they need to cast the spells and further their metamorphosis. Because the PrC doesn't give additional power points, a character that qualifies initially (most likely only a Psychic Warrior) might not be able to cast the later spells without digression from the PrC - due to misunderstanding. To package this for players and Dm's to use should be to make it as straightforward and comprehendable as possible.
And, although Wizard/Psions shouldnt have a problem, I think it is kinda risky to assume that they might have bonus power points due to high ability scores. If you dont meet the minimum 20 int to cast epic spells can you use enhancements from magic to increase your intelligence? Does raising your int temporarily through a magical enhancement grant you bonus power points? If that is so, a low int mage (quite unlikely) could increase their intelligence just to cast the epic spell. Instead of having these (albieit an unlikely one) possibilities a simple change in PrC requirements could circumvent them. Such as requiring an ability score of 20 intelligence, or at least somehow letting a psychic warrior know that they won't have enough PP's to cast the full epic spells unless they digress - so that these PrC's/Spells prevent player/Dm confusion.
You are asking us to increase the requirements for all so they can all meet the requirements of the spells, when the only ones that cannot meet it is a sup optimal class combination. That is not how PrC's and such are written in 3.5.... they are written with the bare minimum requirements, for the anyone to enter, not all the extra stuff that some may need.
PrC's aren't built, or shouldn't be with any specific build in mind. They are built so that regardless of what your previous classes/combination is, once you meet the requirements you are fine. The example of the Bard becoming an Archmage. A Psychic Warrior can meet the requirements and not be fine. The Epic Spells should be put more in line with the initial requirements of the PrC - although they are separate things, they are both there to facilitate the creation of Dark Sun's advanced beings. They should be built for each other.
Actually this is something we get asked alot. (snip)
We have a working version of the seed (which is what we have been building the spells with) but we are not realeasing the seed itself untill we verify it is balanced vs all the other aspects of the epic rules we are building up.
Sorry to ask old questions then
But thanks for the answer just the same!Also, in the mean time, would you suggest using the SRD Transformation Seed until the metamorphosis seed is released?
-X
I think there is, because someone gaining entry and meeting the initial requirements of the PrC will assume that they would be able to cast the metamorphosis spells with no large barriers. Unless they have read every single spell before taking the class, they might assume that the PrC will give them everything they need to cast the spells and further their metamorphosis.
A character who makes such assumptions, is in for a rude awakening. The character should never be under such assumptions. The character, once they meet the requirements for the PrC, and cast the first spell, they can take levels in the PrC -- the minimum requirements for the PrC are for the PrC, and not the spells. The spells, once again, are completely separate, and independant entities, which may require just a little more effort on the parts of the character to advance. They should not be easy, they should be something that takes a bit of time, and invested effort, including more focused development in certain areas if needs be.
Remember -- the SK's have been working at being Dragons for quite a while. And even the fastest, most advanced (short of Dregoth or Borys) among them, was only halfway through the process. If they've been going at it for 2,000 years, and the most advanced one over that time (once again, not including Borys or Dregoth) only got halfway through it -- one that was pushing to develop it as quickly as he could, that, to me, tells me, as a DM and player that there might, just might be some hang-ups that slow down one's development through the process.
A character who makes such assumptions, is in for a rude awakening. The character should never be under such assumptions. The character, once they meet the requirements for the PrC, and cast the first spell, they can take levels in the PrC -- the minimum requirements for the PrC are for the PrC, and not the spells. The spells, once again, are completely separate, and independant entities, which may require just a little more effort on the parts of the character to advance. They should not be easy, they should be something that takes a bit of time, and invested effort, including more focused development in certain areas if needs be.
Remember -- the SK's have been working at being Dragons for quite a while. And even the fastest, most advanced (short of Dregoth or Borys) among them, was only halfway through the process. If they've been going at it for 2,000 years, and the most advanced one over that time (once again, not including Borys or Dregoth) only got halfway through it -- one that was pushing to develop it as quickly as he could, that, to me, tells me, as a DM and player that there might, just might be some hang-ups that slow down one's development through the process.
Im gonna drop it, but I hope someone at least understood my unease with the issue.
Maybe it's just me, but where is this metamorphasis seed? I checked the epic rules and I don't see it on the list of seeds for epic spells. Is this something that you folks over at athas.org have made and I just haven't noticed it, or is it still in the works?
-X
The good folks at athas.org have not yet released the metamorphosis seed for public display. We're all anxiously waiting for it though...
Im gonna drop it, but I hope someone at least understood my unease with the issue.
I understand your unease, but I personally think it is misplaced. I really think you are attempting to apply a standard to something where that standard simply does not exist. What we've done is pretty unprecidented, tying in epic level spells directly to interact with a PrC, when used together, they define the metamorphosis on a whole. You really cannot just look at one, without looking at the other, but it seems you want to apply standards for a PrC, to the spells, and somewhat forget that they are epic spells -- with the added quality that they use psionic energy to use. Psychic Warriors.... yes, they can go down the path, but they are going to have it a lot more difficult than other, more suitable classes. They already need more levels to do the same thing, and they also will be needing to get some additional support, one way or another, as they advance through the spells.
The character casts the first spell, then starts taking levels in the PrC. There is absolutely no guarentees whatsoever that the character would be even capable of casting the second spell -- the spell research and whole process must start for the second one -- you don't just turn around and immediately go into the next spell (unless your name is Kalak, and then I know of a certain Heartwood Spear that will really ruin your day). It takes time, research, preparation, and the acquisition of the resources needed for the spell -- power points are a resource, and if you are a little short, you might need to look into getting a few feats, or levels in another class in order to help yourself out -- that is just part of the process. It doesn't make the process weak, or inefficient, or a poor design. It just means there is an extra hurdle to potentuially have to step over in order to keep moving forward. As it stands, a Psychic Warrior who reaches level 20 in that class, stops gaining any power points from level 21 forward, just like all other manifesters. The nature of Advanced Beings is such that when you are moving through the PrC (well, it might be different with Avangions), you sacrifice something. That something is acquisition of more power points/powers & spells/spell slots, for some rather impressive arrays of abilities. But don't think it is even remotely done when you start the process. It takes a lot out of you to go through it, and it should not be a cake walk -- I really don't even think it should be something that is a "foregone conclusion" once you have made the requirements for the PrC.
So, I feel you are taking it somewhat out of proportion. I do understand your dilemma, but I don't see it as being really relevant. What player, who is working on the metamorphosis process, would get horribly upset at a minor (in scale and scope to everything else) detail like that? What player wouldn't be looking ahead, to see what his or her character would need in order to take that next step? It would hardly be a total and complete shock (even in my somewhat strongly restricted-information campaigns), and even if it is, then the player has to choose -- continue down this path with his or her character, or do something else with the character and stop developing as an Advanced Being.
It is a test, a challenge, one to overcome or one to be stopped by. Nothing more, nothing less.
The good folks at athas.org have not yet released the metamorphosis seed for public display. We're all anxiously waiting for it though...
Hehe, well, we want to make sure it works for all of the Advanced Being types. releasing it now would be really premature, considering there's still 2 more Advanced Beings beyond the Avangions.
Sorry to ask old questions then
Also, in the mean time, would you suggest using the SRD Transformation Seed until the metamorphosis seed is released?
-X
Nah, there are massive differences between what the two seeds do. Note the full rules on actually using those spells are in the class, we even broke up the point costs on things.
btw the reason you have * for the DC cost for the other seeds in the spells and huge costs for particular abilities that are not physical/innate in nature is for the following line from the seed.
"Special: When this seed is combined with any other spell seed the spells duration remains instantaneous and the cost of all other modifiers and factors generated by the other seeds, prior to mitigating factors, are multiplied by x5. For example if a spell with the metamorphosis seed included the ability to gain SR of 25, then the total spells DC before mitigating factors would be increased by 135. (Fortify seed to add SR 25 is 27, multiplied by 5.)"
pretty much with this information and most of the other information, people could almost rebuild the seed if they wanted (though you would likely not have all the factors I have built into it, to allow for changes.)
Just thought I would give a nice little teaser to those who have been working on spells of their own like this. As this line is a special mitigating factor (like the focus structure used in the spells) that is what allows for all the changes that are needed.
Hehe, well, we want to make sure it works for all of the Advanced Being types. releasing it now would be really premature, considering there's still 2 more Advanced Beings beyond the Avangions.
Agreed xlor.... plus there is the tsting to make sure it is not overpowered on making changes on other creatures for "monster creation".... though I have done quite a bit of testing since we came up with the seed back when we first started making the dragons, back before the name change on the seed.
Also doesn't give you bonus power points, so it's moot.
-X
Read the feat again. Per RAW (Rules As Written) it would grant bonus power points for high ability mods for non-manifesting class levels (Max 4 levels). This has been debated over on Psionics board at great length. Go Here if you're interested.
"Special: When this seed is combined with any other spell seed the spells duration remains instantaneous and the cost of all other modifiers and factors generated by the other seeds, prior to mitigating factors, are multiplied by x5. For example if a spell with the metamorphosis seed included the ability to gain SR of 25, then the total spells DC before mitigating factors would be increased by 135. (Fortify seed to add SR 25 is 27, multiplied by 5.)"
Curse your teasing! :P
But thanks for the response. I think I'll take this line right here and try to work up my own seed for the process, at least off of what we already have in hand. My preserver/psion is getting ever closer to epic levels and he's very much the type to sacrifice his being to go through these changes and become the next Avangion. At the very least, it'll be neat because in a way it'll be him really coming up with it then
-X
Would it be possible to alter the epic spell (provided you're an epic spellcaster in the mood for it) to add in additional mitigating factors (such as backlash) to reduce the Spellcraft DC to more approachable levels for a newly epic character? For example, my prospective Avangion to be by level 21 would be able to on his own muster a mighty 46 on taking 10. He could roll and make it, certainly, but I dislike trusting my future to a simple die roll and prefer something a little more concrete. If I was to take a few damage dice worth of backlash... well, what I'm trying to ask I guess is is would you think it would ruin the whole deal or would simply adding in backlash I dunno... I guess wreck the mood?
-X
Question for the Epic Bureau (mostly an opinionated question):
Would it be possible to alter the epic spell (provided you're an epic spellcaster in the mood for it) to add in additional mitigating factors (such as backlash) to reduce the Spellcraft DC to more approachable levels for a newly epic character? For example, my prospective Avangion to be by level 21 would be able to on his own muster a mighty 46 on taking 10. He could roll and make it, certainly, but I dislike trusting my future to a simple die roll and prefer something a little more concrete. If I was to take a few damage dice worth of backlash... well, what I'm trying to ask I guess is is would you think it would ruin the whole deal or would simply adding in backlash I dunno... I guess wreck the mood?
-X
It would be up to your DM on if he would allow an alternate version to be researched. But that is actually part of the reason we designed them using the epic spell rules instead of making them rituals. So that there is the possibility of customization. Again it is always by DM approval though, like any epic spell.
Please note that the Power point cost on any spell using the metamorphosis seed is double the final spellcraft DC (after mitigating factors). So if you lowered the DC to say 45, it would only be 90 power points for the spell.
Most likely the easiest way to advance the spells is add some extra spellcasters to the ritual to help you cast it faster as that lowers the DC quickly. But again this is all up to your DM... We are just writing up the base versions. Some may even want to make a spell for the Dragon to transform it all in one feww swoop.... it would be a monstrous DC though.
Some may even want to make a spell for the Dragon to transform it all in one feww swoop.... it would be a monstrous DC though.
Like possibly what Kalak did, for instance. And somehow (as in, he took that particular secret with him to the grave) he used the life-energy of the people of Tyr as an offset to the Spellcraft DC perhaps?
But yes, the spells are somewhat customizeable, like other Epic Spells, which is one of the big advantages of them being Epic Spells. But the customization would need DM approval like seker said.
Are you thinking that, minus DM opinion (that's usually me, in my case), spells that normally can't be made permanent (via permanency) can be made so through the Metamophosis seed? Could a player work in a permanent spell turning effect, or mage armor?
Somewhere back, I remember someone suggesting that a Constitution penalty might be a good idea for an Avangion, as it progressed, to reflect their frailty, but I was wondering, is it really necessary? Avangions already get less hit points per Hit Die then dragons, as is (d12 to d6). I would think that that change in hit points could suffice, especially if there are ways that the dragon could write in a larger Con gain in one or more of their metamorphoses. Well, that's it for my odd direction-moving. Till next time.
I definatley rather like that idea. Now dragons and avangions won't be carbon-copies of each other; Avangion A might have a more powerful aura than Avangion B, while B might have it sooner, if they can afford it. Brings a question to mind, though. If you build a spell power into it, like when you grant yourself your aura, and it acts like protection against evil, could you pay twice, or some bit of points more, making the spell, to say double the damage of the aura against evil creatures? I was reading through some book of mine, and there was a magic item that had that spell, but something about it made the damage doubled from normal. I admit that, with the cost in power points being directly proportionate to the spellcraft DC, you would want to/need to add some more mitigating factors to buy it off, it could be possible.
actually the spelllike abilities come from things like the reveal or ward seeds in the spells, the metamorphosis seed is just making them innate to the caster, so yes anything like that can be done.
Note however, unless you complete the sequence of spells (or a changed version of them) casting a different metamorphosis seed spell on yourself will actually stop you from progressing further in the avangion or dragon series.
Are you thinking that, minus DM opinion (that's usually me, in my case), spells that normally can't be made permanent (via permanency) can be made so through the Metamophosis seed? Could a player work in a permanent spell turning effect, or mage armor?
yep easily.... actually that kind of stuff can already be done with the normal epic spell seeds (at least on the mage armor one.)
Somewhere back, I remember someone suggesting that a Constitution penalty might be a good idea for an Avangion, as it progressed, to reflect their frailty, but I was wondering, is it really necessary? Avangions already get less hit points per Hit Die then dragons, as is (d12 to d6). I would think that that change in hit points could suffice, especially if there are ways that the dragon could write in a larger Con gain in one or more of their metamorphoses. Well, that's it for my odd direction-moving. Till next time.
We are not currently looking at a con penalty on the avangions at this point, though we are considering making them d4 hit dice.
Kudos you guys!
-X
We are not currently looking at a con penalty on the avangions at this point, though we are considering making them d4 hit dice.
I was wondering about that. Since both wizards and psions have d4 for HD, and an avangion is anything but physically inclined, it seems odd to have more than d4.
Personally I don't think that Con penalties are needed, since avangion are brimming with life energy, but penalties to Strength might make sense. For example an avangion is presumably no more susceptible to disease after going through the change than before, but they are certainly aren't able to physically lift heavy things.
I was wondering about that. Since both wizards and psions have d4 for HD, and an avangion is anything but physically inclined, it seems odd to have more than d4.
Personally I don't think that Con penalties are needed, since avangion are brimming with life energy, but penalties to Strength might make sense. For example an avangion is presumably no more susceptible to disease after going through the change than before, but they are certainly aren't able to physically lift heavy things.
The con penalty I was referring to would counter the con increase due to their size increase. Due to the way size categories work, the Avangion does get a boost to con, and therefore to their hit points, because their wingspan has grown, even though they become more fragile. the con penalty I was talking about, the one I was thinking about, would be directly opposed to the size increase, so they would have their original size category's constitution (and fort save, and hit points), even if their size increases.
The con penalty I was referring to would counter the con increase due to their size increase. Due to the way size categories work, the Avangion does get a boost to con, and therefore to their hit points, because their wingspan has grown, even though they become more fragile. the con penalty I was talking about, the one I was thinking about, would be directly opposed to the size increase, so they would have their original size category's constitution (and fort save, and hit points), even if their size increases.
Ah. Well that makes sense. I thought people were talking about a net loss of constitution.
Ah. Well that makes sense. I thought people were talking about a net loss of constitution.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too.
I do understand the argument that avangions receiving the strength bonus for growing seems odd, and other than maybe explaining how the large creature flies so well, it doesn't fit, but I could see one use for it. I assume an avangion could make use of some spell, such as shapechange, polymorph self, or any spell that might make them like like "normal" people again, and, with the limbs one would gain, the increased strength could help pack a punch. Not necessarily fitting with the fluff of an avangion, but definatley a thought.
I'm not sure how fond of d4s I'd be. If they might/would lose the Constitution bonuses, and Dragons gain a lot of Con (13 or so, my brain says, or 6 extra hp/HD), and it has d12s to boot, then the Avangion just couldn't compete in health. It wouldn't be the "more fragile" one, but the paperweight one. I won't argue the dragon's d12s, dragons in other systems have'em, but as Avangions get bigger, and most bigger things have better than d4 hit dice, I'd shoot for d6's. Granted, the PrC isn't what grows the Avangion, but they are intrinsically related.
What is it about the metamorphosis spells that requires the character to level up in the PrC at all, even the first level? If they require Avangion Magic, you couldn't cast the first one, prior to becoming a PrC member, but if they don't require Avangion Magic, then what's the point of the PrC? There, the stupid question for the post. Maybe it's better to ask what's different, mechanics-wise, between PM I and PM II-X, and what advantage, if any, does using Avangion Magic give these spells, compared to standard epic spells?
Gotta agree with Xanthus. Definatley looking forward to the next update.
Bottom line, I really hope that the bureau plans on releasing stats for him, so I don't have to. PLEASE!!!
Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too.
I do understand the argument that avangions receiving the strength bonus for growing seems odd, and other than maybe explaining how the large creature flies so well, it doesn't fit, but I could see one use for it. I assume an avangion could make use of some spell, such as shapechange, polymorph self, or any spell that might make them like like "normal" people again, and, with the limbs one would gain, the increased strength could help pack a punch. Not necessarily fitting with the fluff of an avangion, but definatley a thought.
I'm not sure how fond of d4s I'd be. If they might/would lose the Constitution bonuses, and Dragons gain a lot of Con (13 or so, my brain says, or 6 extra hp/HD), and it has d12s to boot, then the Avangion just couldn't compete in health. It wouldn't be the "more fragile" one, but the paperweight one. I won't argue the dragon's d12s, dragons in other systems have'em, but as Avangions get bigger, and most bigger things have better than d4 hit dice, I'd shoot for d6's. Granted, the PrC isn't what grows the Avangion, but they are intrinsically related.
Well, see, when I look at Avangion vs Dragon, I see damage avoidance/deflection vs damage mitigation/absorption. The Avanguion would be able to avoid or deflect most damage, while the dragon can soak up and survive a bigger beating, but wouldn't be aboiding as much at all. In the end, they become balanced, just two different approaches to the situation.
What is it about the metamorphosis spells that requires the character to level up in the PrC at all, even the first level? If they require Avangion Magic, you couldn't cast the first one, prior to becoming a PrC member, but if they don't require Avangion Magic, then what's the point of the PrC? There, the stupid question for the post. Maybe it's better to ask what's different, mechanics-wise, between PM I and PM II-X, and what advantage, if any, does using Avangion Magic give these spells, compared to standard epic spells?
the first spell doesn't require avangion magic. The second and later spells, I believe do. It would not make sense for the first spell to require Avangion Magic, because you need to have cast the first spell in order to start down the PrC. But other than that first level, there really is nothing requiring them to continue taking levels in the PrC if they don't want to.
Basically, the Avangion Magic requirement means that PM-II - X become specifically restricted to Avangions. Nobody else can cast the spells. DM-II - X has a similar restriction.
I was wondering if The Epic Bureau was planning on doing something, and I really hope they are. Are there any plans to write up "official" stats for Oronis after the Avangion gets hammered out satisfactorally? I really liked seeing stats for Draegoth, and Oronis is a rather unique kind of being, even among Avangions. I'm not sure how the Champion of Rajaat template still works with him, if at all anymore, or any other special abilities he has for being a Sorcerer-King, like the ability to grant spells. Certainly a number of CoR powers don't necessarily fit with him, but if he lost certain powers, his "brothers" might take notice, if they watch each other that close. Regardless, sig spells, DR, regeneration, immunities, and such could still fit well.
Bottom line, I really hope that the bureau plans on releasing stats for him, so I don't have to. PLEASE!!!
I have already started stating out Oronis to go with Borys (who is in process) and my Dregoth - who I think I have updated since I posted it here last (for the better).
So while I am not a member of Athas.org, I will post his stats here on the message board along with Borys when I get them finished.
...Yes I know tis will open a can of worms...
...but...
...Why would an abberration that "has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three." lose his distinctive anatomy during the process?
And if Avangions in the end gains the Ooze type?
This will explain WHY they have to lose the use of arms and legs....
Is my brain just sunburned?
An ooze is an amorphous or mutable creature
Traits: An ooze possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
:D Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
(Our Avangions wiil lack thìs trait)
:D Blind (but have the blindsight special quality), with immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight.
(blind sight....intresting)
:D Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.
(good at defending)
:D Some oozes have the ability to deal acid damage to objects. In such a case, the amount of damage is equal to 10 + 1/2 ooze's HD + ooze's Con modifier per full round of contact.
(Oozing an aura!)
:D Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
(good at defending)
:D Proficient with its natural weapons only.
:D Proficient with no armor.
:D Oozes eat and breathe, but do not sleep.
Returning on the Avangion metamorfosis spells...
...Yes I know tis will open a can of worms...
...but...
...Why would an abberration that "has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three." lose his distinctive anatomy during the process?
They don't "lose" their distinctive anatomy, they become something with a bizarre and distinctive anatomy.
And if Avangions in the end gains the Ooze type?
This will explain WHY they have to lose the use of arms and legs....
Is my brain just sunburned?
An ooze is an amorphous or mutable creature
Traits: An ooze possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).
:D Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
(Our Avangions wiil lack thìs trait)
:D Blind (but have the blindsight special quality), with immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight.
(blind sight....intresting)
:D Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.
(good at defending)
:D Some oozes have the ability to deal acid damage to objects. In such a case, the amount of damage is equal to 10 + 1/2 ooze's HD + ooze's Con modifier per full round of contact.
(Oozing an aura!)
:D Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
(good at defending)
:D Proficient with its natural weapons only.
:D Proficient with no armor.
:D Oozes eat and breathe, but do not sleep.
Considering the Avangion is not an amorphous or mutable creature; the Avangion is not unintelligent, has no acid attack, the Avangion does not even come close to being an Ooze. The choice for Aberration was made, because it was felt it fit what the Avangion is the best. Ooze doesn't come close to fitting the Avangion at all, for the Avangion fails the basic definition of what an Ooze is.
the Avangion fails the basic definition of what an Ooze is.
idea aborted
"Monstrous humanoids are similar to humanoids, but with monstrous or animalistic features. They often have magical abilities as well."
Did you guys consider Monstrous Humanoid?
"Monstrous humanoids are similar to humanoids, but with monstrous or animalistic features. They often have magical abilities as well."
Considered, but I think rejected, because Avangions are not "similar to humanoids", especially by the later stages. They mau have started humanoid, but have transformed into something notably different. We're talking semi-transparent/translucent wings, smallish body, and head here. No legs, no arms, and really don't look even remotely along the lines of humanoid. Dragons are more humanoid in appearance than avangions.
Considered, but I think rejected, because Avangions are not "similar to humanoids", especially by the later stages. They mau have started humanoid, but have transformed into something notably different. We're talking semi-transparent/translucent wings, smallish body, and head here. No legs, no arms, and really don't look even remotely along the lines of humanoid. Dragons are more humanoid in appearance than avangions.
In the end Abberration is the best type for Avangions...
the problem is, since you guys have picked aberration for dragons, it just makes sense to go with that for Avangions, so any alterations to that type that you'd want to make, will have to be done through the metamorphosis spells.. (personally, I'd like to see some of the benefits from the plant type for the avangion, but I doubt that'll happen.. I would NOT want to see it AS a plant type, just have some of the benefits, that's all..)
Dragons are type "dragon". Avangions are type "aberration". Aberration was chosen because it was what we saw as the "best fit" for he existing creature types. If you can think of one better, then please tell us, but please be a bit specific about why you think it is a better fit than aberration is for avangions. Specifics are important on this. You say you like some of the features of the plant type... elaborate please?
Please don't say silly things like "dragons were made aberrations, so therefore avangions were made the same," because it is untrue. We're not making the two be "compulsively symmetrical" -- there are similarities in the processes between the two (which only makes sense), but we're not doing arbitrary and artificial balances between them by forcing them to be the same type, for instance. They are two completely different creatures in the end.
Actually athasian dragons are of the dragon type (go figure ;) ) not aberration.
oops, my bad
musta misread that somewhere ;) sorryDragons are type "dragon". Avangions are type "aberration". Aberration was chosen because it was what we saw as the "best fit" for he existing creature types. If you can think of one better, then please tell us, but please be a bit specific about why you think it is a better fit than aberration is for avangions. Specifics are important on this. You say you like some of the features of the plant type... elaborate please?
ok, here's what I see, the dragon type gains immunity to magic sleep and paralysis effects, which is good, they also get d12 HD, and Good Fortitude, Will, and Reflex saves (though I don't know if that portion of the creatures type was included, it's been a while since I've looked over the dragon metamorphasis, that might be overriden by class type saves I guess) however.. balance wise, the aberration doesn't get any immunities, though it's "theme" (An aberration has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three.) really does fit well, it's lacking in abilities to match up a little with the dragon type. Just comparing the two types, (types alone, not factoring how class would alter things) the dragon has 3 good saves, the aberration just a good will save. the dragon gets 6 skill points (which is likely irrelevant) and the aberration 2, (again, irrelevant because of class levels, but as far as balancing the two types.. I point it out simply to show where each gains strengths as they stand alone), also the dragon has d12 hd, and the aberration has d8, which isn't so bad..
ok, plant, the plant type has d8 HD, just like the aberration, no loss there, same kill points, no loss there, Good fortitude saves, which in a way makes sense since the Avangion is a powerhouse of living energy, perhaps this could be a reason to allow the avangion some sort of Fort save bonus? admittedly, saves are standardized at epic levels, so it's really no big deal.. but, to the more fitting points.. An Abberation gets low light vision... to 60 feet... great... except that the Avangion will eventually glow.. negating the usefulness of such a feature.. the plant type gains low-light vision (admittedly only to 60 feet, but perhaps that could be extended?) low light vision would be much more useful beyond the radius created by the avangions glow. (their light aura).
Also (and these are the parts I really wish to see) the plant type has these benefits..
# Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
# Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.
# Not subject to critical hits.
I figure an Avangion's tie to the land, or preserving magic, or whatever, and it's overall "immunity / defensive" theme, make these abilities very appropriate.
In 2e, the Dragon had a restricted power progression for his psionic abilities over his 10 level progression, he gained fewer powers than a psion of his level.. the avangion had no such restriction, indeed, the avangion gained additional wisdom, which (in 2e) not only granted him a potential for a lot of power points in 2e, but if you recall, in 2e, a character with a high wisdom gained immunities to a variety of spells based off their wisdom.. immunity to charms and compulsions would easily duplicate this, admittedly "phantasms" would be a bit iffy, as would "patterns", if trying to link these immunities to those old spell immunities, but they still fit.. In 2e the avangion seemed to be designed for heightened magic and psionic power (and with old 2e "Psionic Enchantments" it was clear that his magic was intended to be the greater of the two, yet his mental abilities, by default, were defenitely upgraded, in 2e, wisdom was a psion's primary ability.
As for the immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning. Those can be accounted for like a side effect of the extra life energy he carries around, how it shields him, saturates his body, and that combined with the times of solitude make for a greater sense of self. An understanding of his new bodie's connection to the life energy it holds, and it adds to his protection.
Not being subject to critical hits is just a fun bonus ;) there isn't really a counterpart dragon ability it offsets, but it does help (in a way) to put a sort of buffer on the hit points he has.. making them harder to deplete in a physical fight
In 2d the HD available to an Avangion (player character) were higher than those of the dragon itself. This would add to that effect.-X
Since avangions and dragons are not gaining monster HD/levels, the only difference between the types is the immunity to sleep/paralysis effects. Saves, HD, skill points, etc have no impact.
As for the plant type... avangions aren't plants. They have nothing in common with plants. Most of the abilities of plant creatures have no precendent in anything about avangions. Plus it would just feel wrong to have then turn into plant-type creatures.
That said there isn't necessarily anything wrong with beefing up avangions in terms of immunities. But I really don't think the plant type is the way to go.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too.
I do understand the argument that avangions receiving the strength bonus for growing seems odd, and other than maybe explaining how the large creature flies so well, it doesn't fit, but I could see one use for it. I assume an avangion could make use of some spell, such as shapechange, polymorph self, or any spell that might make them like like "normal" people again, and, with the limbs one would gain, the increased strength could help pack a punch. Not necessarily fitting with the fluff of an avangion, but definatley a thought.
Ummm, maybe I'm missing something, but if I transform from a size L or H creature, and become a size M creature... shouldn't my "streng bonus due to size" vanish??
ok, other than that.. yup
I too am hopeful for more in the way of stat mods enhancing the cerebral capabilities of an avangion ;)Since avangions and dragons are not gaining monster HD/levels, the only difference between the types is the immunity to sleep/paralysis effects. Saves, HD, skill points, etc have no impact.
As for the plant type... avangions aren't plants. They have nothing in common with plants. Most of the abilities of plant creatures have no precendent in anything about avangions. Plus it would just feel wrong to have then turn into plant-type creatures.
That said there isn't necessarily anything wrong with beefing up avangions in terms of immunities. But I really don't think the plant type is the way to go.
I pretty much agree with you. The only problem I see with beefing up the immunities for Avangions is that immunities are pretty darned powerful, and would need to be weighed/looked at to see the impact they would have on the creature overall.
Honestly, I think aberration works. We can adjust/expand the Avangion beyond that -- I mean it is only the type, and the reason some types have extra bonuses/features, is to they are spread throughout all creatures of that type. Avangions tend to be.... rather unique. So it would make sense they had a type that didn't stack up the avangion with a bunch of advantages, because then that would imply there were a number of other creatures that were essentially similar to them according to the rules and they way they tend to be used in 3/3.5e.
I pretty much agree with you. The only problem I see with beefing up the immunities for Avangions is that immunities are pretty darned powerful, and would need to be weighed/looked at to see the impact they would have on the creature overall.
Honestly, I think aberration works. We can adjust/expand the Avangion beyond that -- I mean it is only the type, and the reason some types have extra bonuses/features, is to they are spread throughout all creatures of that type. Avangions tend to be.... rather unique. So it would make sense they had a type that didn't stack up the avangion with a bunch of advantages, because then that would imply there were a number of other creatures that were essentially similar to them according to the rules and they way they tend to be used in 3/3.5e.
Oh I agree that the plant type isn't the best fit theme wise, theme wise Aberration is the best fit. I'm just saying that even though the theme fits, the benefits don't really make it worth while, I mean, this is the AVANGION, a counterpart to the Dragon. it should gain more from it's type than the aberration can give. However, I think that the "traits" of the plant type are worthwhile for the Avangion. Personally, I think that though the theme of the Aberration fits best of what currently exists, I think that the best way to go is to create an Avangion type. Dragons happen to exist on other worlds, Avangions do not, but the Athasian Dragons are modeled after a creature type that uniquely fits them. I think the Avangion should be the same. No other creature (to my knowledge) on Athas has the Dragon type. the Avangion type should be just as unique, something solely theirs. I think the Cleric AB's should have the Elemental type (obviously) and the Spirits of the Land should have their own type that is unique to themselves. These creatures are all unique. (minus the elementals) they don't exist in any other game. As such, they should have a unique type all their own. I'd hate to see some monster walk up and say, "Look, I'm an Aberration too! Just like an Avangion! We're similar!" I don't want anything to be similar to an avangion.
(Course, borrowing immunity ideas from other types to construct a new Avangion type is all right) ;)
And thanks for your appraisal Xanthus.
Oh I agree that the plant type isn't the best fit theme wise, theme wise Aberration is the best fit. I'm just saying that even though the theme fits, the benefits don't really make it worth while, I mean, this is the AVANGION, a counterpart to the Dragon. it should gain more from it's type than the aberration can give. However, I think that the "traits" of the plant type are worthwhile for the Avangion. Personally, I think that though the theme of the Aberration fits best of what currently exists, I think that the best way to go is to create an Avangion type. Dragons happen to exist on other worlds, Avangions do not, but the Athasian Dragons are modeled after a creature type that uniquely fits them. I think the Avangion should be the same. No other creature (to my knowledge) on Athas has the Dragon type. the Avangion type should be just as unique, something solely theres. I think the Cleric AB's should have the Elemental type (obviously) and the Spirits of the Land should have their own type that is unique to themselves. These creatures are all unique. (minus the elementals) they don't exist in any other game. As such, they should have a unique type all their own. I'd hate to see some monster walk up and say, "Look, I'm an Aberration too! Just like an Avangion! We're similar!" I don't want anything to be similar to an avangion.
(Course, borrowing immunity ideas from other types to construct a new Avangion type is all right) ;)
And thanks for your appraisal Xanthus.
well first off while an avangion is an aberration, even at first level they get several abilitis that set them apart from most other aberrations, the only other type of aberration that is remotely similiar to them is the elan.... which goes through a very similiar proccess but has a greater cost.... they lose all their levels.
Oh and on Athas, Drakes are also the dragon type.
In my personal write ups of dragons they start as aberrations, with the dragonblood subtype, and only at the final few stages of the spell do they transform to the actual dragon type. Note these are not the official athas.org version, but then again I have my own opinions on the rules for both avangions and dragons to make them more elegant and simple.... while keeping the feel of the fluff as much as possible.
personally I think there should be an avangion type.... but that avangions do not gain it till the final stages.... till then they are aberrations. I think all arcane advanced beings fit this concept. However Character Elementals and Spirits of the Land follow a more natural approach so should be the Elemental and Fey types respective. This is just my own opinion though.
Oh I agree that the plant type isn't the best fit theme wise, theme wise Aberration is the best fit. I'm just saying that even though the theme fits, the benefits don't really make it worth while, I mean, this is the AVANGION, a counterpart to the Dragon. it should gain more from it's type than the aberration can give. However, I think that the "traits" of the plant type are worthwhile for the Avangion. Personally, I think that though the theme of the Aberration fits best of what currently exists, I think that the best way to go is to create an Avangion type. Dragons happen to exist on other worlds, Avangions do not, but the Athasian Dragons are modeled after a creature type that uniquely fits them. I think the Avangion should be the same. No other creature (to my knowledge) on Athas has the Dragon type. the Avangion type should be just as unique, something solely theirs. I think the Cleric AB's should have the Elemental type (obviously) and the Spirits of the Land should have their own type that is unique to themselves. These creatures are all unique. (minus the elementals) they don't exist in any other game. As such, they should have a unique type all their own. I'd hate to see some monster walk up and say, "Look, I'm an Aberration too! Just like an Avangion! We're similar!" I don't want anything to be similar to an avangion.
(Course, borrowing immunity ideas from other types to construct a new Avangion type is all right) ;)
And thanks for your appraisal Xanthus.
If you flip through the books, and see the wide variety of creatures that Aberrations are, I don't think you'd be making such a statement. Aberration is... well a catch all for everything that is wierd and doesn't really fit in one of the other categories. Everything from Illithids to (I need to verify this) Aboleths are aberrations. There is nothing even remotely similar between the various kinds of aberrations, other than they are really wierd.
And constructing a new type is not going to happen. We need to attempt to use the rules already provided, as the types that already exist are more than enough. Adding a new type brings in a whole slew of other problems we don't even want to deal with. Believe me, that particular discussion was one of the big ones already in the bureau.
My biggest thing is to see the immunities that I feel fit the flavor of the old 2e style Avangion in the 3e version. If those come about through the metamorphosis then that's fine. And I realize they would need to be balanced out, that's fine also. As long as the flavor is there.Well, I guess as long as the end result is as it should be, then how we get there shouldn't matter so much should it.
Understand that said immunities also must be weighed as if they are applicable/possible in 3/3.5e. For instance, the immunity to physical damage unless hit by a +5 or greater weapon.... that won't happen.
Sure, Kreen are bugs of sort, and monstrous humanoid, but they have arms and legs of sort. Even Trin have legs more like those of a human than like those of a catepillar; they stand erect, which is the essential aspect of being a humanoid. The avangion ends up with no effective hands and legs at all. Can't even support his own weight to stand up. That's not a humanoid. What's wrong with saying that Avangions are vermin? I'm sure most of the sorceror-kings would agree.
-brax, wondering if he has to tell people that he's joking, or if it was apparent already
-brax, wondering if he has to tell people that he's joking, or if it was apparent already
:rolleye2: 
Understand that said immunities also must be weighed as if they are applicable/possible in 3/3.5e. For instance, the immunity to physical damage unless hit by a +5 or greater weapon.... that won't happen.
of course not, but from my post above, I commented on how an Avangion in 2e was likely to gain a very high wisdom as part of his metamorphosis, in doing so, according to 2e rules, he'd gain many immunities.. mostly to mind effecting powers and compulsions.. I commented on that above also.. that type of immunity "does" exist in 3e.. as such, it "could" be imcorporated in there.. I'd like to see it as an option. I wouldn't care if it were gained later on in the metamorphosis, and that indeed fits truer to the old 2e style... but at the same time, i also wouldn't care if it were offset by something.. to keep balance..
Oh dear -- did that last line deflate a massive retort?
Oh dear -- did that last line deflate a massive retort?
no, I think it was the sorceror kings agreement that they are vermin that did
Oh dear -- did that last line deflate a massive retort?
:whatsthis
no, I think it was the sorceror kings agreement that they are vermin that did
:heehee
Hey, is there any idea yet when Avangion is going to be re-posted? Just curious how the chosen changes will be implemented.
Not certain, the proposed changes are being discussed in the bureau currently. And bear in mind... there are people in the Athas.org bureaus that a) don't read the forums at all and b) are in my experience the pinnicle examples of "rules lawyers", far beyond my meager efforts.
b) are in my experience the pinnicle examples of "rules lawyers", far beyond my meager efforts.
*blushes*
should my ears be burning
Seems kind of a bit hazy at that point to make Avangions all a similar creature, because if they each have to learn their own transformation spells, and they aren't carved in stone somewhere, then one would think that they could sneak any of a dozen extra things into their metamorphses, thus making each one uniquely different.
On a more goofish note, could part of their transformation make them look draconic? I'm not saying all of the powers, but the thought of a good dragon assaulting an evil one is rather cool, and seeing as Athas has no good dragons as of now, a preserver could make their appearance be a dragon.
Actually, what will stop Athas from being flooded with a bizarre menagerie of strange, metamophed creatures, other than the GM and small number of epic-characters? Even if there is a rule that says you must be a member of the Avangion, Dragon, Spirit of the Land, or Elemental PrC, nothing there seals their future form. They could turn into any of a hundred strange creatures, with the metamorphosis seed.
When a dragon or, in this case an avangion, "grant" themselves Damage Reduction, is there anything other than final cost of the epic spell/DC stopping them from going all-out with it? Could an Avangion grant themselves DR ##/+8, for instance, if they were powerful enough?
Well, there's the rules that are put down in the 3.5e mechanics for damage reduction. Anything higher than +5 just gets laveled as 'epic' I believe.
Seems kind of a bit hazy at that point to make Avangions all a similar creature, because if they each have to learn their own transformation spells, and they aren't carved in stone somewhere, then one would think that they could sneak any of a dozen extra things into their metamorphses, thus making each one uniquely different.
It isn't a hazy process at all, if you consider that all accounts fo the avangion process point strongly to Oronis being the one to figure it all out to begin with. And I'd lay very good money that he used some of the ideas from the Dragon metamorphosis that he knew, and restructured it to be preserver-specific. Physically, they are nowhere near the same creatures. Even with powers/capabilities, they aren't alike. But, the process for dragons, and the process for avangions are similar in nature across the board.
On a more goofish note, could part of their transformation make them look draconic? I'm not saying all of the powers, but the thought of a good dragon assaulting an evil one is rather cool, and seeing as Athas has no good dragons as of now, a preserver could make their appearance be a dragon.
I think the whole 'good dragon' vs 'bad dragon' thing is a bit overdone in D&D already. One of the things I love about Dark Sun is that it doesn't apply. Honestly, while I believe that the defiling act is a corruptive influence on one's actions, soul, and personality, twising you more and more evil as you persist to use it, I don't necessarily assume preserving is 'good'. I think preserving, which is still the act of taking some external life force for your own ends, falls to a more neutral influence, not swaying you to good or to evil. And I believe that avangionhood is the pinnacle of preserving magic, just as dragonhood is the pinnacle of defiling magic. As such, there is nothing in my book that says that avangions must be good. I can actually envision neutral or evil avangions -- Evil ones might be a bit tougher, because avangionhood isn't the quick & easy way to power (compared to dragons), but I don't believe that they are innately good.
Actually, what will stop Athas from being flooded with a bizarre menagerie of strange, metamophed creatures, other than the GM and small number of epic-characters? Even if there is a rule that says you must be a member of the Avangion, Dragon, Spirit of the Land, or Elemental PrC, nothing there seals their future form. They could turn into any of a hundred strange creatures, with the metamorphosis seed.
Actually, my ruling is -- if you attempt to come up with the process on your own, first, you must know that the process actually can exist. I don't really come upfront to my characters, and give them information they'd just not know (I also watch for player knowledge being mixed into character knowledge by my group, and that becomes reflected in experience rewards, and character lifespans/survivability). Second, I rule that the dragon metamorphosis took Dregoth somewhere around 1,000 - 1,500 years to figure out. The Avangion process took about 500 years for Oronuis to figure out, but he also had some help (being able to look at what he knew of the dragon process). So, I rule it will take somewhere around that long for a character to even figure out how to start the metamorphosis on their own.
That means, realistically in my campaigns, the character would need to have some assistance in figuring things out. Which means the character has to basically get help, steal books & data, or otherwise procure secrets of the metamorphosis from someone who already has begin the change. For dragons, you have Farcluun, Hamanu, Lalai-Puy, Nibenay, Daskinor, and Dregoth. Good luck with prying that particular tidbit of knowledge from them. Of course, sifting through the ruins of Kalidnay, Yaramuke, or Ur-Draxa might help (oh, wait, that last one's kind of inaccessable!) Maybe slipping in and looking around in the sorcerer-king's secret chambers in Tyr, Balic, Raam, or Draj might provide some insight, if they weren't already cleared out. But, and entire campaign could most definitely involve the whole investigative process to uncover what a dragon is, how it relates to defilers and psionic manifesters, and so forth. It also is laid with all kinds of significant challenges that could be insurmountable (do you just go up to the Oba, and ask her to give you her notes on the dragon metamorphosis?)
Do note that all the characters in my campaigns know about dragons is this: There are rumors of one dragon, The Dragon that roams the wastes. Rumors only, because anyone who ever got close enough to really identify it, is dead. From those rumors, there is another subset of rumors suggesting that The Dragon has disappeared, and may possibly be dead. But without any hard evidence substantiating the first set of rumors, there's even less substantiating the second. Nobody knows that the SK's are dragons. Even Nibenay who I believe dropped his disguise as a human, is believed to have actually 'put on an illusion/disguise' to look somewhat like The Dragon, to pay respect to The Dragon -- but people don't think that is his actual appearance (people remember he looked like a man before). So there's quite a bit of figuring things out that mush happen for the characters in my campaigns to even begin to grasp what really is going on. People who roleplay their characters correctly have several chances to figure it out. Those who don't bother to roleplay will never realize the subtle nuances of the real world of Athas.
For avangions.... there is one and only one source for knowledge on the metamorphosis -- Oronis. And he's not exactly willing to part with that knowledge -- he blames himself, and his giving the knowledge to others as the reason or cause for every other avangion's death. His guilt is way too high to just give it away to anyone. You'd have to basically convince him, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you will not die after he gives you that knowledge. And that's just not possible.
So... there's not exactly much room for a massive surge of new dragons and avangions in my campaigns. The divine AB's are even more interesting, because I rule that an existing AB has to actually initiate the process and make you capable of the transformation. Without that direct help, you aren't even going to be able to start (and the question of "well, where did the first ones come from then?" is lost to time, nobody really knows).
Anyone who wants to figure it all out, has to spend about 1,000 - 1,500 years working on the first stage spell (not developing it, figuring out how to develop it) -- and that is only the arcane AB's.
Actually, my ruling is -- if you attempt to come up with the process on your own, first, you must know that the process actually can exist. I don't really come upfront to my characters, and give them information they'd just not know (I also watch for player knowledge being mixed into character knowledge by my group, and that becomes reflected in experience rewards, and character lifespans/survivability). Second, I rule that the dragon metamorphosis took Dregoth somewhere around 1,000 - 1,500 years to figure out. The Avangion process took about 500 years for Oronuis to figure out, but he also had some help (being able to look at what he knew of the dragon process). So, I rule it will take somewhere around that long for a character to even figure out how to start the metamorphosis on their own.
That means, realistically in my campaigns, the character would need to have some assistance in figuring things out. Which means the character has to basically get help, steal books & data, or otherwise procure secrets of the metamorphosis from someone who already has begin the change. For dragons, you have Farcluun, Hamanu, Lalai-Puy, Nibenay, Daskinor, and Dregoth. Good luck with prying that particular tidbit of knowledge from them. Of course, sifting through the ruins of Kalidnay, Yaramuke, or Ur-Draxa might help (oh, wait, that last one's kind of inaccessable!) Maybe slipping in and looking around in the sorcerer-king's secret chambers in Tyr, Balic, Raam, or Draj might provide some insight, if they weren't already cleared out. But, and entire campaign could most definitely involve the whole investigative process to uncover what a dragon is, how it relates to defilers and psionic manifesters, and so forth. It also is laid with all kinds of significant challenges that could be insurmountable (do you just go up to the Oba, and ask her to give you her notes on the dragon metamorphosis?)
Do note that all the characters in my campaigns know about dragons is this: There are rumors of one dragon, The Dragon that roams the wastes. Rumors only, because anyone who ever got close enough to really identify it, is dead. From those rumors, there is another subset of rumors suggesting that The Dragon has disappeared, and may possibly be dead. But without any hard evidence substantiating the first set of rumors, there's even less substantiating the second. Nobody knows that the SK's are dragons. Even Nibenay who I believe dropped his disguise as a human, is believed to have actually 'put on an illusion/disguise' to look somewhat like The Dragon, to pay respect to The Dragon -- but people don't think that is his actual appearance (people remember he looked like a man before). So there's quite a bit of figuring things out that mush happen for the characters in my campaigns to even begin to grasp what really is going on. People who roleplay their characters correctly have several chances to figure it out. Those who don't bother to roleplay will never realize the subtle nuances of the real world of Athas.
For avangions.... there is one and only one source for knowledge on the metamorphosis -- Oronis. And he's not exactly willing to part with that knowledge -- he blames himself, and his giving the knowledge to others as the reason or cause for every other avangion's death. His guilt is way too high to just give it away to anyone. You'd have to basically convince him, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you will not die after he gives you that knowledge. And that's just not possible.
So... there's not exactly much room for a massive surge of new dragons and avangions in my campaigns. The divine AB's are even more interesting, because I rule that an existing AB has to actually initiate the process and make you capable of the transformation. Without that direct help, you aren't even going to be able to start (and the question of "well, where did the first ones come from then?" is lost to time, nobody really knows).
Anyone who wants to figure it all out, has to spend about 1,000 - 1,500 years working on the first stage spell (not developing it, figuring out how to develop it) -- and that is only the arcane AB's.
I suppose I like that thought. I'm not precisely certain what means SOME characters would use to live so long; likely another caveat to limit the number of dragons and avangions. I suppose if you grab the Extended Lifespan feat, or if there is some spell to lengthen your life. The SK's being Champions of Raajat just get immortality. Still, minus huge or epic spells, and character templates no real character of this age should be able to claim, I'm not sure about lasting so long.
Question xlorepdarkhelm. Does your limit extend to the Dragon/Avangion PrCs, or just the metamorphoses, themselves? With the PrC and metamorph spells being truly not linked, mostly, a character could gain that first level, acquire the Immortality SQ, and then have that time to spend 1,200 years learning about the transformations he could look forward to in their futures. Otherwise, might you share how your characters do/might live for as long as Elminster, who has gods extending his lifespan?
I suppose I like that thought. I'm not precisely certain what means SOME characters would use to live so long; likely another caveat to limit the number of dragons and avangions. I suppose if you grab the Extended Lifespan feat, or if there is some spell to lengthen your life. The SK's being Champions of Raajat just get immortality. Still, minus huge or epic spells, and character templates no real character of this age should be able to claim, I'm not sure about lasting so long.
Actually, that's the entire point. It becomes something where the players, if they really want to actually become a dragon or an avangion, that character basically needs help to be able to learn how to develop the first spell in the series.
Question xlorepdarkhelm. Does your limit extend to the Dragon/Avangion PrCs, or just the metamorphoses, themselves? With the PrC and metamorph spells being truly not linked, mostly, a character could gain that first level, acquire the Immortality SQ, and then have that time to spend 1,200 years learning about the transformations he could look forward to in their futures. Otherwise, might you share how your characters do/might live for as long as Elminster, who has gods extending his lifespan?
Actually, the limitation is just for figuring out how to develop the first spell. Once they've gotten over that hurdle, the other ones more or less build off the first one. Once they've cast the first spell, they are now able to take levels in the PrC. I'm not saying it takes thousands of years to develop each spell, I'm not even saying it takes thousands of years to develop the first spell. I'm saying it either takes 1,000 - 1,500 years or some assistance/"cliffs' notes" from someone already undergoing the transformation to begin to comprehend and understand how to go about researching the first spell. I guess it could be looked at as necessary steps to understand how to use the 'metamorphosis seed'.
See, I really don't expect characters to be able to live 1,000 - 1,500 years to figure it out themselves. Dregoth and Oronis both had their Champion of Rajaat capabilities which granted them immortality. Every other dragon or avangion got the idea from someone else -- dragons from the revolt against Rajaat; avangions from Oronis.
(course, then you might also get a secret preserver lair where preservers are saught by the veiled aliance to continue the research... maybe 1 person per generation.. kinda like a secret research lab to make an A-bomb in a war...)
So then what about (as it suggested in 2e) starting your reasearch off the notes of a non-advanced being? Searching out the long lost lore of ancient wizards (preservers and otherwise) who searched for the way to become an AB but never finished.. That's also an option..
(course, then you might also get a secret preserver lair where preservers are saught by the veiled aliance to continue the research... maybe 1 person per generation.. kinda like a secret research lab to make an A-bomb in a war...)
You're apparently misunderstanding me then. I am going off the notion that the entire dragon metamorphosis started with Dregoth. Nobody before him even remotely came up with anything similar, and the only ones who have gotten the metamorphosis afterwards, used the foundations of his research to do it. I believe that Dregoth showed the process to Borys, while they were planning the coup against Rajaat.
I believe that the genesis of the avangion process is with Oronis. Before his research, there was no avangion process. Just like before Dregoth's research, there was no dragon process. Why not? Because it takes thousands of years to even be able to figure out the basic tenants to research the first spells; and I just don't see any points in history where anyone short of Rajaat himself, would have had the time to do that. Ancient preservers would have 'typical' lifespans for their species, or even shorter due to the purge. Strongholds would have been sacked and destroyed during the purge -- and the odds of one person knowing where to start, and having 1,000 - 1,500 years to devote towards developing the process are long already, but tack on the odds of that surviving the purge and then the millenia of the cleansing wars and the age of the sorcerer-kings... we're talking a rather incredibly unlikely event.
Before Dregoth's research, there were no arcane Advanced Beings. Before Oronis' research, the only arcane Advanced Beings were dragons. Therefore, you wouldn't be able to go back and find some secret stronghold filled with lost knowledge in my view, the only ways to figure out the processes are to get help from someone who already has initiated the series of spells themselves, or to figure it out on your own and needing one to one and a half millenia to work it all out -- so you need to already have a pretty damned extended lifespan.
I also want to point out again that as far as virtually everyone in my Athas is concerned -- including the vast majority of the Veiled Alliance, there is a legend of one Dragon. And for that Dragon, there is a new rumor that it has disappeared and may be dead. Some higher ups might know that the rumor of The Dragon is actually true, others (like certain members of Tyr's Council) know him to be dead. Only an absolutely select few people on Athas know that there are more dragons than that one. And an even more select, rarer group even know of the existance of an avangion. Even fewer numbers of that handful of people who know of more than one dragon being in the world, or who know anything about avangions at all, know that it is actually an artificially-created metamorphosis caused by spells. I mean, there might be a whopping 4 or 5 people in the world, besides the existing dragons and avangion, that know of this. And they aren't likely to go around and brag about it.
If my players want to become dragons or avangions, they need to do some serious roleplaying and problem-solving. They need to connect some dots that don't even begin to look like dots, much less that they have any connections. And this kind of a quest could dominate a campaign or even two, just to glimpse at the possiblity of the thing. Those that make the effort, get a chance to prove themselves. Those that don't want to put forth an epic level of roleplaying effort for me, well, they don't get very far at all.
You're apparently misunderstanding me then. I am going off the notion that the entire dragon metamorphosis started with Dregoth. Nobody before him even remotely came up with anything similar, and the only ones who have gotten the metamorphosis afterwards, used the foundations of his research to do it. I believe that Dregoth showed the process to Borys, while they were planning the coup against Rajaat.
I believe that the genesis of the avangion process is with Oronis. Before his research, there was no avangion process. Just like before Dregoth's research, there was no dragon process. Why not? Because it takes thousands of years to even be able to figure out the basic tenants to research the first spells; and I just don't see any points in history where anyone short of Rajaat himself, would have had the time to do that. Ancient preservers would have 'typical' lifespans for their species, or even shorter due to the purge. Strongholds would have been sacked and destroyed during the purge -- and the odds of one person knowing where to start, and having 1,000 - 1,500 years to devote towards developing the process are long already, but tack on the odds of that surviving the purge and then the millenia of the cleansing wars and the age of the sorcerer-kings... we're talking a rather incredibly unlikely event.
Before Dregoth's research, there were no arcane Advanced Beings. Before Oronis' research, the only arcane Advanced Beings were dragons. Therefore, you wouldn't be able to go back and find some secret stronghold filled with lost knowledge in my view, the only ways to figure out the processes are to get help from someone who already has initiated the series of spells themselves, or to figure it out on your own and needing one to one and a half millenia to work it all out -- so you need to already have a pretty damned extended lifespan.
I also want to point out again that as far as virtually everyone in my Athas is concerned -- including the vast majority of the Veiled Alliance, there is a legend of one Dragon. And for that Dragon, there is a new rumor that it has disappeared and may be dead. Some higher ups might know that the rumor of The Dragon is actually true, others (like certain members of Tyr's Council) know him to be dead. Only an absolutely select few people on Athas know that there are more dragons than that one. And an even more select, rarer group even know of the existance of an avangion. Even fewer numbers of that handful of people who know of more than one dragon being in the world, or who know anything about avangions at all, know that it is actually an artificially-created metamorphosis caused by spells. I mean, there might be a whopping 4 or 5 people in the world, besides the existing dragons and avangion, that know of this. And they aren't likely to go around and brag about it.
If my players want to become dragons or avangions, they need to do some serious roleplaying and problem-solving. They need to connect some dots that don't even begin to look like dots, much less that they have any connections. And this kind of a quest could dominate a campaign or even two, just to glimpse at the possiblity of the thing. Those that make the effort, get a chance to prove themselves. Those that don't want to put forth an epic level of roleplaying effort for me, well, they don't get very far at all.
At the risk of sounding stupid, (and this isn't me *****ing, either) who is going to help these players. No one knows that the Sorcerer-Kings are wizard/psion dragons, so one wouldn't even know to ask them, and I'd bet they aren't apt to share their secrets to power; more likely they'd just kill someone else who asked, seeing as they'd be in the know. Oronis seems guilt-stricken to the point of silence about his avangiondom, and even the other SK's apparently don't know that he is no longer among them 100%. You'd think his inability to perform certain horrendous feats would give him away, but whatever; that's not my point. My point is, if the only dragons and avangions living are all SK's, in some fashion, and their "research" is probably locked away in their cities, behind a wall of soldiers, templars, magic and dragondom, where is this assistance to come from? If Dregoth did the dragon thing, Rajaat can't be blamed for that, so even if he were around, loose, findable, and ammenable to help, he doesn't know, Dregoth and the rest won't share, and neither will Oronis. So, who helps? If the Mind Lords, one member of the Order, and some small few others know, if they can't do it, why help someone else?
Anyway, that's enough of that. Otherwise, if someone did devote the ages to the first spell, to apply to the PrC (either one), what will guide them to master the form of Dragon or Avangion? As far as I know, there isn't some cosmic over-force that rules such things, and if it is purely your own research, and the Metamophosis seed allows such wide changes, what's to stop you from becoming a giant hydra, or some behemoth Dune-esk sandworm, rather than the specific dragon/avangion forms that the spells fill out? I like them, myself, and I might flub some details so that the players don't get alternate forms, but I don't know if anything stops them, short of the DM.
I do like the reqs overall, though, because it answered my "what stops lots of arcane AB's" question.
Last silly: is there anything about the Dark Sun dragon or avangion forms that makes it archetypical? In FR, the Sharns have that rule, so no magic can duplicate their appearance and such. Could you use magic to polymorph into a dragon, or avangion, if you were to see one and survive?
At the risk of sounding stupid, (and this isn't me *****ing, either) who is going to help these players. No one knows that the Sorcerer-Kings are wizard/psion dragons, so one wouldn't even know to ask them, and I'd bet they aren't apt to share their secrets to power; more likely they'd just kill someone else who asked, seeing as they'd be in the know. Oronis seems guilt-stricken to the point of silence about his avangiondom, and even the other SK's apparently don't know that he is no longer among them 100%. You'd think his inability to perform certain horrendous feats would give him away, but whatever; that's not my point. My point is, if the only dragons and avangions living are all SK's, in some fashion, and their "research" is probably locked away in their cities, behind a wall of soldiers, templars, magic and dragondom, where is this assistance to come from? If Dregoth did the dragon thing, Rajaat can't be blamed for that, so even if he were around, loose, findable, and ammenable to help, he doesn't know, Dregoth and the rest won't share, and neither will Oronis. So, who helps? If the Mind Lords, one member of the Order, and some small few others know, if they can't do it, why help someone else?
There are clues, and hints to pop up. It is like a jigsaw puzzle, first to discover that there are more than one dragon out there (and there are people who do know that), then to find out where they are... which can very well lead to the sorcerer-kings. Then there is so many possible ways that the player in question could devise in order to get information about the process from the sorcerer-kings, or even Farcluun possibly. Is it a straight-forward path? Hell no. It requires the players truly interacting in the game world, and working together with me as the campaign rolls along, to eventually come to an answer to that question. I don't make it a 'do a, b, c, and d in order, followed by e and f, and then you get to be a dragon' process. It is an organic, ever changing and adapting. It requires creativity on the part of the player, and interaction with the campaign world and environment, as well as with me as I'm laying everything out. If there is no, or poor roleplaying going on, then the player just doesn't get to be a dragon or avangion. For my campaigns, the mantle of Advanced Being falls as a reward for excellent roleplaying. People who metagame, munchkin, or otherwise focus strictly on the stats, mechanics, and combat system in my campaigns, while neglecting actual roleplaying -- remaining in character and playing the part, they don't get it.
Anyway, that's enough of that. Otherwise, if someone did devote the ages to the first spell, to apply to the PrC (either one), what will guide them to master the form of Dragon or Avangion? As far as I know, there isn't some cosmic over-force that rules such things, and if it is purely your own research, and the Metamophosis seed allows such wide changes, what's to stop you from becoming a giant hydra, or some behemoth Dune-esk sandworm, rather than the specific dragon/avangion forms that the spells fill out? I like them, myself, and I might flub some details so that the players don't get alternate forms, but I don't know if anything stops them, short of the DM.
I tend to think that the defiler metamorphosis tends to transform people in one direction, while the preserver metamorphosis tends to transform them in another direction. I don't think Dregoth knew what the final result of the metamorphosis would look like (until Borys showed him), and I don't think Oronis really knows exactly what he's turning into. I don't think that anyone going down those processes really knows much beyond the stage they are on, and the stage they are developing next. I think that the whole process is a matter of self-discovery, combined with the increased power and awareness.
Last silly: is there anything about the Dark Sun dragon or avangion forms that makes it archetypical? In FR, the Sharns have that rule, so no magic can duplicate their appearance and such. Could you use magic to polymorph into a dragon, or avangion, if you were to see one and survive?
I don't understand the question.
I don't understand the question.
Their asking if they can use a polymorph spell to change their shape into a dragon, or avangion after seeing one I think...
Their asking if they can use a polymorph spell to change their shape into a dragon, or avangion after seeing one I think...
to my knowledge, I don't think there is anything stopping them. Polymorph doesn't grant all of the abilities, though. I mean, you can turn into an avangion, but you won't be able to fly around like one (you can flap, and keep afloat, but owuld get very tired after a while, I think). You can become a dragon in appearance, but you don't have any of the magical abilities, nor the breath weapon.
...of course, I'd figure that every sorcerer-king would take any substantiated rumors of new dragons being seen at least somewhat seriously, and I tend to rule they take every rumor of anything resembling an avaiong very seriously (even if they may not exactly know what it is).
Don't cerebremancers level past L10? In the epic book, the PrCs continued to level up past 10th level.
They do, but you have to be character level 21 to be able to level any 10-level PrC past 10.
i think it is rediculous that the avangion would gain strenght while increasing in size but not have any attack abilities, then why the str increase?
u should do without it, even though the basic rules say str has to increase with size increase, it is a Avangion we are talking about!
not sure if someone else posted this before, but i did not intend to read the whole post.
i think it is rediculous that the avangion would gain strenght while increasing in size but not have any attack abilities, then why the str increase?
u should do without it, even though the basic rules say str has to increase with size increase, it is a Avangion we are talking about!
That had een covered, we put suggestions to the Epic bureau, about substituting the Str increases for something else.
just a thought... (preparing for the onslaught of yells)
It was considered and shot down.
figured that might have been the case...
u should do without it, even though the basic rules say str has to increase with size increase, it is a Avangion we are talking about!
I thought that was a good idea too, but then I saw this would happen:
Dragon vs. Avangion. Round 1. Fight!
Dragon: Grapple Avangion.
I thought that was a good idea too, but then I saw this would happen:
Dragon vs. Avangion. Round 1. Fight!
Dragon: Grapple Avangion.
Well huh, never thought of that. Hrm. That certainly changes perspective on things, doesn't it?
I'm curious to see what comes out with revision 1 of the Avangion now. I was definitely on the boat of "Ditch the strength increase, add Int/Wis increase" and now I'm not so sure. The dragon will always have the advantage once the avangion goes unto armless mode in that it can still manipulate objects (such butterfly people and the huge amounts of fun it would be to pluck their wings off). I wonder what can be done to offset that. I liked the Incorporeal idea someone said above, but I saw that it was shot down. I've got nothing, unfortunately.
-X
Ok, so the dragon tries to grapple the avangion... what about that aura of theirs? the one that makes evil creatures affected as with a ray of enfeeblement? Is that not strong enought to protect help them against a dragon?
I remember an Avangion's maneuverability being better than a Dragon's in 2e, were they faster too? maybe.. (but with teleportation, does that really matter?) question is, could the avangion keep himself from being grappled? (minus casting a wraithform spell)...
I thought that was a good idea too, but then I saw this would happen:
Dragon vs. Avangion. Round 1. Fight!
Dragon: Grapple Avangion.
What if an avangion couldn't be grappled? I really doubt they can be tripped (being floating in the air and all). I mean, it is a creature that tends to be rather resiliant against such things, so I could see them being able to avoid grapples (I'd say while concious... if they aren't at least awake, then I'd potentailly rule they could be grappled).
Think about trying to grapple a soap bubble or something like that, it just kind of (potentially, if it didn't pop) slips through your fingers, and keeps floating away. I'd see that as being a possible thing for avangions. It would take a bit more strategy than "me dragon, me squash glowy thing" then.
I dunno, I keep thinking that the avangion's physical form is rather flexible and difficult to hold onto. Between the folds of its wings, it can be ruled as virtually impossible to actually identify the correct physical shape of the being (looking almost like wisps of layers of translucent/semi-transparent glossy wings with the central core of the avangion projecting light) -- there are many ways which it could make the avangion difficult to identify the size and shape correctly, so efforts to grapple fail (it just slips out of your grasp when you try to grasp it). And it has what, perfect maneuverability in the air?
the lack of physical options eventually was why I said the incorporeal subtype (I'd assume it would be part of the transformation seed) Course, one could always take the Psion uncarnate PrC... that's actually a good question.. would someone be unable to transform if they'd taken that PrC and become incorporeal (minus that 1 minute per day they could manage per the class abilities)?
My problem with incorporeal is pretty straight-forward and fundamental. Incorporeal beings, like ghosts, are technically not physically here. The avangions, in every description ever given of them, and in all of the rules for them from 2E, they are most definitely physically present wherever they are at. They don't pass through walls or people, they don't do anything like that (unless they cast a spell to grant that particular ability). Incorporeal just does not work for the avangions on a basic level.
Ok, so the dragon tries to grapple the avangion... what about that aura of theirs? the one that makes evil creatures affected as with a ray of enfeeblement? Is that not strong enought to protect help them against a dragon?
It will affect the dragon, but slowly. And it depends on how resistant the dragon is. I'd say that the avangion's ray of enfeeblement becomes somewhat limited in its use against a dragon. It is useful against other things, but a dragon is also a pretty damned powerful spellcaster, and it could use a globe of invulnerability or something like it to stop the ray of enfeeblement dead.
I remember an Avangion's maneuverability being better than a Dragon's in 2e, were they faster too? maybe.. (but with teleportation, does that really matter?) question is, could the avangion keep himself from being grappled? (minus casting a wraithform spell)...
See my previous post.
well, I cant really disagree with your logic on incorporeality being a bad fit.. I just wish Avangions weren't so dang screwed when it came to physical interaction... though does the epic DR and such help in a grapple?
Not to avoid or resist the grapple. Possibly damage-purposes though.
My problem with incorporeal is pretty straight-forward and fundamental. Incorporeal beings, like ghosts, are technically not physically here. The avangions, in every description ever given of them, and in all of the rules for them from 2E, they are most definitely physically present wherever they are at. They don't pass through walls or people, they don't do anything like that (unless they cast a spell to grant that particular ability). Incorporeal just does not work for the avangions on a basic level.
It will affect the dragon, but slowly. And it depends on how resistant the dragon is. I'd say that the avangion's ray of enfeeblement becomes somewhat limited in its use against a dragon. It is useful against other things, but a dragon is also a pretty damned powerful spellcaster, and it could use a globe of invulnerability or something like it to stop the ray of enfeeblement dead.
Could a character apply metamagic feats to the spells involved in the creation of their auras, assuming they paid the extra cost? Out of Character Thinking, could they say, "hey, if I am this powerful, others might be, too, and gain similar powers", and use a heightened ray of enfeeblement, for instance, to bypass globe of invulnerability?
Could one apply a component twice? In the Monster Manual, a Solar's Protective Aura, among other things, benefits them with a double-strength magical circle against evil. Could an avangion make their aura do that, too?
Sorry to belabor such points, but sometimes the sheer flexibility of epic spell crafting leaves me to wonder just how far one can push somethings.
As for the metamagic options, I think I've heard that epic spells are kind of anti-metamagic, though there might be options in the avangion PrC to sidestep that, I'd have to check...
Yet I still haven't heard thoughts on an earlier question of mine, if a character did take the Psion Uncarnate class to level 10, and gained the Incorporeal Subtype, would he be barred from transformation??? It wouldn't really seem fair, I mean, a character could theoretically go through the whole transformation, then take the class and gain the subtype, and be fine, but to restrict it beforehand... kinda rough going if you ask me.. though it be a stretch, one might deem that that 1 minute of corporeality is enough for the epic transformation spells to take hold and bam, there you go..
crud, I can't look up the Avangion Transformation on Athas.org, the site seems to have vanished... (odd) but if the duration is instantaneous, that might very well work out just fine then... in the case of the psion uncarnate anyway.. I'd say any undead form is barred.. (actual undead with the negative energy involved)
Actually that just made me think (surprising I know) but being that the Avangion Aura is an Epic Spell effect, it would be considered level 10, and therefore not subject to Globe of Invulnerability.
As for the metamagic options, I think I've heard that epic spells are kind of anti-metamagic, though there might be options in the avangion PrC to sidestep that, I'd have to check...
Yet I still haven't heard thoughts on an earlier question of mine, if a character did take the Psion Uncarnate class to level 10, and gained the Incorporeal Subtype, would he be barred from transformation??? It wouldn't really seem fair, I mean, a character could theoretically go through the whole transformation, then take the class and gain the subtype, and be fine, but to restrict it beforehand... kinda rough going if you ask me.. though it be a stretch, one might deem that that 1 minute of corporeality is enough for the epic transformation spells to take hold and bam, there you go..
crud, I can't look up the Avangion Transformation on Athas.org, the site seems to have vanished... (odd) but if the duration is instantaneous, that might very well work out just fine then... in the case of the psion uncarnate anyway.. I'd say any undead form is barred.. (actual undead with the negative energy involved)
as many of the spells actually take longer than one minute to cast, it would prevent them form completing the metamorphosis.... though it would be fine to do it afterwards.... just like a dragon that completed all the spells could become undead afterwards with no problems
I thought that was a good idea too, but then I saw this would happen:
Dragon vs. Avangion. Round 1. Fight!
Dragon: Grapple Avangion.
You forgot:
Round 0: While the dragon is trying to get past the avangion's magical/psionic barriers to reach the avangion to grapple, the avangion's contingency spell goes off teleporting the avangion to safety.
And if that doesn't work the avangion says "Let go of me!"
You forgot:
Round 0: While the dragon is trying to get past the avangion's magical/psionic barriers to reach the avangion to grapple, the avangion's contingency spell goes off teleporting the avangion to safety.
And if that doesn't work the avangion says "Let go of me!"
lol, I like that.
I vote to increase the Avangion's flying manuverability from good to perfect. The change could be in the last two or three metamorphosis spells.
Agreed!!!
That fits with 2e standards!! (and works well with the fact that they make the thing float at will... if it has that ability it certainly has a great deal of control over it's maneuverability
You got my vote
Agreed!!!
That fits with 2e standards!! (and works well with the fact that they make the thing float at will... if it has that ability it certainly has a great deal of control over it's maneuverability
You got my vote
as do hereby u have my vote as well
I vote to increase the Avangion's flying manuverability from good to perfect. The change could be in the last two or three metamorphosis spells.
Hmm... I thought they had that. good catch, I should have paid more attention to that, because I agree, perfect maneuverability only makes sense, especially once they can't stand any more.
They could have an aura of mage hand, where they act as if they have hands in a five foot reach, can activate items with this aura and do most other things that require physical contact, such as deliver touch spells?
I do not think they need any sort of innate ability to manipulate objects. They have magic and psionics enough to cover those things. It's not like upper level dragons really have that much of an edge in this area either. Chances are they will spend a very large portion of time in another form so that they may move and interact more normally.
The rules for casting from scrolls say you only need to "be able to see and read the writing on the scroll". So, a huge Avangion can either cast from a scroll, trying to read it from the ground. (20ft away, at least?) Or, cast a quickened mage hand to read it from closer? Seems overly difficult for something so fundamental - scroll use! Scrolls rely on the spell completion method -"A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). " Can an Avangion finish the gestures as a gigantic butterfly?
It doesnt look good for wand use, however. "To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area." The rules as I read them lean in favor that they cant activate wands with mage hand or telekinetic powers. As a Dm I would also probably rule that its something about the connection - the physical holding of a wand - that makes them usable and is required for a completion of the spell trigger.
as for the item use thingy... I don't know, that will be a problem, and I for one, would never take a character along the metamorphosis track if I need to polymorph myself back to my original form, just to get a power boost. It contradicts the purpose of the metamorphosis. something needs to be done.
I was just thinking of the Avangion Aura (and yes, it should only exist when in true form, not polymorphed) I was wondering if feats were thought up to alter or enhance that aura? It sorta reminds me of the Aura's mentioned in the XPH. Anything wrong with adding to or modifying powers of an Avangion's Aura (without restructuring the base spell) through the use of feats??
as for the item use thingy... I don't know, that will be a problem, and I for one, would never take a character along the metamorphosis track if I need to polymorph myself back to my original form, just to get a power boost. It contradicts the purpose of the metamorphosis. something needs to be done.
I totally agree. The Psion Uncarnate has some rules for integrating items and equip into its form, so maybe we could draw some inspiration from how they do it. An Avangion could be able to use, goggles, amulets, rings, cloaks. Some questionable ones would be, belt, tunic, robes, boots, etc. Wands look completely out unless there are some mechanics for allowing them to use wands. My suggesting above about the mage hand aura that allows them to manipulate objects and activate items as if they were hands would work, but im sure there are better ideas out there.
Now that I think about it, rings might be out at the higher metamorphosis stages. They lose their appendages and it doesn't seem like there is too many places a ring could possibly go, after looking at a picture of an Avangion.
Anyway, I could see me having an Avangion do something similar. Not sure if it is legal (houserule, if not), nor do I know how well it would work with charge-based items, such as wands, but it is a thought, if no other one is officially declared, at least for some varieties of items.
The wording could be done in a much more eloquent way, but this sums up my thoughts about what a power like this would look like and work like. Thoughts? Is this the only solution to the item thing? Could an Avangion satisfy the somatic components of spells with this power?
"This spell transforms an arcane caster into the first stage towards becoming an Avangion. The casters type becomes Aberration, losing all previous types, and gaining all advantages of the new type."
What exactly does losing all previous types mean. So a human loses the humanoid type, but do they keep the racial bonuses for being human? Are previous racial bonuses lost? Racial stat bonuses? Dwarven Focus? Thri-kreen natural armor or poison abilities? Or does the character keep all previous racial bonuses, or is it a mix of bonuses lost and kept?
I have a question regarding both the Avangion's and Dragons:
"This spell transforms an arcane caster into the first stage towards becoming an Avangion. The casters type becomes Aberration, losing all previous types, and gaining all advantages of the new type."
What exactly does losing all previous types mean. So a human loses the humanoid type, but do they keep the racial bonuses for being human? Are previous racial bonuses lost? Racial stat bonuses? Dwarven Focus? Thri-kreen natural armor or poison abilities? Or does the character keep all previous racial bonuses, or is it a mix of bonuses lost and kept?
I believe it is just the type, not necessarily the racial advantages/bonuses.
One of the Psionic Enchantments an Avangion can take is Far Reach. If an Avangion also took the Far Reach High Arcana, or the High Psionics equivalent for Arch-Psion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20021122b), would this stack with the Psionic Enchantment, at least for the relevant one between powers and spells?
I would say yes.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: When flying, the creature can halt its forward motion and hover in place as a move action. It can then fly in any direction, including straight down or straight up, at half speed, regardless of its maneuverability.
If a creature begins its turn hovering, it can hover in place for the turn and take a full-round action. A hovering creature cannot make wing attacks, but it can attack with all other limbs and appendages it could use in a full attack. The creature can instead use a breath weapon or cast a spell instead of making physical attacks, if it could normally do so.
If a creature of Large size or larger hovers within 20 feet of the ground in an area with lots of loose debris, the draft from its wings creates a hemispherical cloud with a radius of 60 feet. The winds so generated can snuff torches, small campfires, exposed lanterns, and other small, open flames of non-magical origin. Clear vision within the cloud is limited to 10 feet. Creatures have concealment at 15 to 20 feet (20% miss chance). At 25 feet or more, creatures have total concealment (50% miss chance, and opponents cannot use sight to locate the creature).
Those caught in the cloud must succeed on a Concentration check (DC 10 + 1/2 creature’s HD) to cast a spell.
Normal: Without this feat, a creature must keep moving while flying unless it has perfect maneuverability.
This is from the SRD. Although, the SRD contradicts itself in the movement section saying that both good and perfect manuverability allows hovering. This began as an argument to make the Avangions flying manuverability perfect, but I seem to have fumbled with the contradictory statements from the SRD. Whatcha all think?
The best precedent to look at would be the Beholder which remains at all times in flight, just like the Avangion. The Beholder has a good flight manuverability, but no hover feat, and depending on which rules you look at, wont need it. It does however have a special ability Flight (Ex):. Without some kind of ability like this, are we too assume that all arial locomotion is done with wings? As all other creatures I currently can find move by wings, if they dont have some flight power. Does an Avangion have to flap its wings constantly to get around, to hover, to have a cup of coffee and read a spell scroll? Seems ridiculous. I like the idea that the Avangion, like the Beholder, is naturally bouyant and can move without using its wings. The discrepancy begins when we consider whether they can move their 300ft movement without the use of wings as well. From above we see that a hovering creature using its wings snuffs torches and blows stuff around - highly annoying to a studious cloistered Avangion.
The best precedent to look at would be the Beholder which remains at all times in flight, just like the Avangion. The Beholder has a good flight manuverability, but no hover feat, and depending on which rules you look at, wont need it. It does however have a special ability Flight (Ex):. Without some kind of ability like this, are we too assume that all arial locomotion is done with wings? As all other creatures I currently can find move by wings, if they dont have some flight power. Does an Avangion have to flap its wings constantly to get around, to hover, to have a cup of coffee and read a spell scroll? Seems ridiculous. I like the idea that the Avangion, like the Beholder, is naturally bouyant and can move without using its wings. The discrepancy begins when we consider whether they can move their 300ft movement without the use of wings as well. From above we see that a hovering creature using its wings snuffs torches and blows stuff around - highly annoying to a studious cloistered Avangion.
I actually think of how the Beholder moves about as a good example of what we're looking for in many ways, except that I would expect the Avangion is faster, more maneuverable, and far better all around on flight. I wasn't just thinking about hover as the reason why they should get perfect maneuverability, I would expect that the wings they have basically let them swim through the air with such incredible grace and swiftness that I just can't see them able to do anything else. No, I don't think they need to flap their wings constantly, they just float, and can drift in the air currents easily, but the wings are powerful and able to flitter around them, almost looking like a huge simmering cloak that looks almost like waves of motion which makes them flitter around through the air looking like it is the easiest thing in the world. I could see them able to make extraordinary, supernaturally-sharp turns, including reversing their course in mid flight effortlessly, I could see them being able to come to a complete stop whenever they want, almost as if the laws of motion don't seem to apply to them any more.
I would expect any other flying creature on Athas would look clumsy in the air compared to the avangion -- with the possible exception of air elementals. Dragons can fly, sure, but they couldn't keep up with an avangion who could so seriously outdistance and outmaneuver that dragon that aerial combat between the two would leave the dragon at a considerable disadvantage.
Oh, and about snuffing out torches... what use is a torch for a creature that naturally glows and provides plenty of light to see and easily read with?
Phylactery Transference (Su): Headbands, belts, rings, cloaks, and other wearable magical items kept in close association with the demilich's phylactery transfer all their benefits to the demilich, regardless of distance between the demilich and its pyhlactery. The standard limits on types of items used simultaneously still apply.
Could an avangion use something, say its crystal coffin, or some item it can fabricate in place of the phylactery, and use a similar ability? They could benefit from the powers of various gear that, like the demilich they might not have spots for anymore, it holds the slot allotments to gear, and anyone who says "no way, no one could actually do that" can be directed to the ELH for an official-product example.
I grant this doesn't cover wands, staffs, and scrolls, but it's a start, and maybe someone could work in some addendum for such, assuming the Mage Hand Aura doesn't pan out.
I wonder if the crystal tomb could be used for an epic spell of some kind? It's got to become a rare artifact. Remember how you collect magic items of defilers and such for the spell to progress? I wonder if someone could hasten their own metamorphosis or empower some other epic spell by utilizing the crystal tomb of a fully transformed avangion. Maybe the avangion itself could use it to restore a huge swath of land? That would be cool. ;) (Think, prolific forestation/vegetation set on uber max effect).
I like the idea of a fully transformed avangion basically swimming through the air and being so graceful that it amazes all, and air elementals find his movement respectable ;) And being able to hover, either while beating his wings or not, is pretty cool. I'd say use both.
Question though, can an Avangion Swim???? (Presuming enough water is found). Cause I know it's reasonable to assume a Dragon could swim. And many birds know how to swim, though they tend to be built to interact with water... (like ducks). What if an avangion wanted to turn the world back to the blue age? He'd certainly need to swim then. ;) Because if some creature or force knocked him out of the sky, he wouldn't just go PAP! and get back up a moment later, off hard ground. He'd go SPLASH! And possibly drown...
I'm reminded of those creatures on the clone plannet in Star Wars Ep. II that swam underwater/flew and carried a rider to that clone facility. Can we adopt that??
I dont like the idea of an avangion being tied down to some location like that. (Good idea though to use the crystal tomb).
I wonder if the crystal tomb could be used for an epic spell of some kind? It's got to become a rare artifact. Remember how you collect magic items of defilers and such for the spell to progress? I wonder if someone could hasten their own metamorphosis or empower some other epic spell by utilizing the crystal tomb of a fully transformed avangion. Maybe the avangion itself could use it to restore a huge swath of land? That would be cool. ;) (Think, prolific forestation/vegetation set on uber max effect).
Doesn't the crystal tomb get consumed by the spell once the final stage is completed?
I like the idea of a fully transformed avangion basically swimming through the air and being so graceful that it amazes all, and air elementals find his movement respectable ;) And being able to hover, either while beating his wings or not, is pretty cool. I'd say use both.
Question though, can an Avangion Swim???? (Presuming enough water is found). Cause I know it's reasonable to assume a Dragon could swim. And many birds know how to swim, though they tend to be built to interact with water... (like ducks). What if an avangion wanted to turn the world back to the blue age? He'd certainly need to swim then. ;) Because if some creature or force knocked him out of the sky, he wouldn't just go PAP! and get back up a moment later, off hard ground. He'd go SPLASH! And possibly drown...
I'm reminded of those creatures on the clone plannet in Star Wars Ep. II that swam underwater/flew and carried a rider to that clone facility. Can we adopt that??
I dunno about them being able to swim or not. Possibly, but I keep thinking of them as being rather light and fragile, I mean... does a butterfly swim? We're not talking about thick, leathery wings with intense musculature to pull a heavy body through the air... we're talking semi-transparent, wispy, glistening wings that I'm not certain if they can really sustain movement through water very easily (I get images of how a jellyfish moves through the water, which is more just drifting through the currents than anything). fortunately, there isn't much water around to test this theory or not on Athas... but if, for instance, some avangion was to try skinny-dipping in the Last Sea... I think the Avangion would have a bit of difficulty actually getting below the surface, much less moving around down there.
I'm just thinking of the Dragon teleporting them both out towards the last sea (where he'd have tons of life energy to pull from) and then slapping the avangion down in the water. (maybe it would take more than one dragon to pull this off)
The dragon would a) need to be able to get past the avangion's SR/PR (which I believe is higher than the dragon's), b) need to be able to successfully actually touch the avangion, and c) not just rip the avangion in two once he actually touches the avangion.
Even then... the dragon wound need to be aware of the Last Sea, and also be able to push through the Mind Lord's defenses, ending up fighting a two (or would it be four?) way fight as the Mind Lords also assault the dragon. Taking an avangion to the Last Sea would really be a bad idea, I think.
Side question, do Templars have the ability to cast epic level spells?? or only AB's like elementals and SotL??
well, if the Dragon were aware of the last sea, the mind lords would likely attack the avangion as well, and he could work up a variation of the "Pin to the Sky" epic spell, and dunk the avangion :P trying to drown him. (a water breathing spell might be an odd one to have when you are far from any large amount of water). An epic spell might be good to dunk an avangion... don't you think? And as for SR/PR, well, there are always ways around that, or through it. I'm just saying though.. it might be a good tactic if it could be pulled off...
It's an intriguing intellectual exercise, to be sure, but I just don't see it as being even remotely practical.
Side question, do Templars have the ability to cast epic level spells?? or only AB's like elementals and SotL??
Epic spells are not specifically limited to Advanced Beings at all. Advanced Beings get other advantages. What I mean is... an epic-level cleric could cast epic spells, an epic-level druid could cast epic spells. And if there *was* an epic-level templar (which I think would be the result of a sorcerer-king placing far too much trust in another individual, and thus laughable in most situations), then yes, they could conceivably cast epic spells. But sorcerer-kings are not really known for being generous, or letting their followers develop into potential threats. Only Oronis might do something like that... and possibly Dregoth with his most trusted high templar (I forget the guy's name), but even then I'm not entirely certain. I'd figure that there comes a point in the Templar ranks and promotions, that the monarch simply eliminates someone who has gotten too powerful.
ok, in the case of Oronis then.. would it work (as far as epic spells go) to use templars to mitigate spellcasting factors? you know, have them sacrifice spell slots to join in a spellcasting ritual?? Might be kinda cheap, having worshipers and all.. but could lead to some serious powergaming
Does that work across the arcane/divine borders? I forget I do know that arcane & divine's barriers get a bit blurred in the epic rules.
Does that work across the arcane/divine borders? I forget I do know that arcane & divine's barriers get a bit blurred in the epic rules.
That's my problem too, I just don't know how that works out.
That's my problem too, I just don't know how that works out.
The more I think about it, the more I'd rule against it, if only for the fact that the Templars are empowered by the sorcerer-king to begin with, and possibly a templar's spells/magic does absolutely nothing -- good or bad -- to his or her patron monarch.
I dont like the idea of an avangion being tied down to some location like that. (Good idea though to use the crystal tomb).
I wonder if the crystal tomb could be used for an epic spell of some kind? It's got to become a rare artifact. Remember how you collect magic items of defilers and such for the spell to progress? I wonder if someone could hasten their own metamorphosis or empower some other epic spell by utilizing the crystal tomb of a fully transformed avangion. Maybe the avangion itself could use it to restore a huge swath of land? That would be cool. ;) (Think, prolific forestation/vegetation set on uber max effect).
I wasn't thinking the Avangion is tied down; just an object he has a powerful connection to is. The avangion, much like a demilich, can go anywhere it wants, even to other worlds, and the connection stays. Demiliches aren't bound to a place; they just choose to sit there, and use more efficient means of travel, but nothing says that their phylactery is there, too. I'd hide it on some little demiplane I created, so no one can reach it. If the crystal coffin goes poof, then the stone case it sits in doesn't, so that could be the connection point, whatever. I just thought it sounded better than trying to redesign items for the avangion to use, or use none, if at least not easier, and it had an official example. Every avangion has to have some safe place; the place where they perform their epic metamophoses, and they could leave some object they have a connection to, that transfers the benefits of magic items. Any better ideas would be nice to hear.
As for the Last Sea, yeah, I feel sorry for any dragon, or avangion I suppose, who does drift that way. Dragons and avangions seem to move more toward wizard extrordinaire with just enough psionics to qualify (at least to me), but the Mind Lords are pure mental smackdown (Psion 30 or with PrCs), and dragons and avangions might not have quite as high PR as SR. Add to that that, at least 2E Mind Lords sent unharmable illusory selves to fight. They'd proably kick a dragons but, avangions, too.
I hope that avangions swimming never becomes important. I'd assume that, much like a jellyfish or cuddlefish/other octopi or squid, their wings would flutter, and they'd move easily, propelled by their flight or levitation power. So long as their wings channel the water, they should move easily enough.
Now that I think about it, using the tomb like that wouldn't be a bad idea... I'm thinking it would be a new concept only because that wasn't really thougth out in 2e, but it's a good point.. I'd go with it. Question becomes, do we have it as part of the metamorphosis? Or do we just say he uses a separate spell??
Yeah, I agree. They never really say how 2E avangions might manipulate gear. I thought maybe they could do something like the lich/demilich does, and fabricate it with the Craft Wondrous Item feat. During one of their later stages. Maybe Craft Epic Wondrous Item, and it could have the same cost and time as a Soul Gem, for balance. While there might not be anything magic inherently in the crystal coffin construction, fluffwise, I feel it's a liberty I, at least might take. I suppose I'm just overly fond of my own ideas :D . Hell, maybe it could be a totally unrelated item. Kind of an "obsidian orb" for avangions; some item they specifically can make, that grants them the effect of phylactery transference from the demilich. Feel free to make it cost 120,000 gp (the Cp equv.) and 4,800 XP, just like the demilich's Soul Gems. If anyone has better ideas, I really do wish to hear them, or I might just flub this for myself. if avangions have to take a "human" form to craft bizarre equipment for themselves, and then turn back and equip it, or worse yet, forgo using it, I'll just
, cause that would suck, especially with the dragons not losing such, especially with books like the Draconomicon, which shows what forms a dragon's magic gear might take.I imagine a dragon has a crown, bracers, a mantle, belt, boots, etc...lots of gear.
An avangion would wear a silk sari and that's it.
Some kind of power that lets them manipulate objects without costing PP or spell slots, that allows wand, staff, and scroll use seems necessary. Something similar to the mage hand aura I suggested. AND, Avangions need some way to make use of equipment that is comparable to the Dragons. I think the demilich example is a pretty good idea. That idea would need to figure out exactly where the equipment would be kept and how the Avangion designates a spot. If the avangion can change the spot, etc? But, this might be an advantage over the dragon, because the dragon still needs to adapt their equipment to their changing form. Avangions might not have that much of a problem, anyways. I could see an Avangion wearing a robe, necklace, crown.. rings and such become a problem. I dunno, what ideas are out there?
I do think that Avangions and Dragons should be able to make use of equipment.
In the Epic levels, equipment becomes way to important for an Avangion to abandon its use. A Dragon has a HUGE advantage if the Avangion cant make use of equipment, let alone wands, staves, rods, dorjes, scrolls, etc. Also, if an Avangion needs to take another feat to make use of equipment, they also fall behind the Dragon. Although they do have a pool of energy to draw from to power their wish spells to make permanent dweamenors, that isnt an adequate solution to their lack of equipment. You end of substituing one power for the lack of another.
Some kind of power that lets them manipulate objects without costing PP or spell slots, that allows wand, staff, and scroll use seems necessary. Something similar to the mage hand aura I suggested. AND, Avangions need some way to make use of equipment that is comparable to the Dragons. I think the demilich example is a pretty good idea. That idea would need to figure out exactly where the equipment would be kept and how the Avangion designates a spot. If the avangion can change the spot, etc? But, this might be an advantage over the dragon, because the dragon still needs to adapt their equipment to their changing form. Avangions might not have that much of a problem, anyways. I could see an Avangion wearing a robe, necklace, crown.. rings and such become a problem. I dunno, what ideas are out there?
I do think that Avangions and Dragons should be able to make use of equipment.
The only other thought I had was one I sort of mentioned a few pages ago. If the dragon and avangion could absorb magic items into themselves, then use the effects as needed. When the charges expire, they fade away, and antimagic would still nullify their powers, if the creature were within the area. Kinda like how this one character I found permanently shrunk items, and then placed them under his skin. I'm not overly fond of the idea, as I like my demilich ripoff better, and I suppose the dragon could make something similar to use, too, so he doesn't need to craft bracers that could ft mighty oak trees :D . If both need to have it so one must, no biggie, and the Phylactery Transference still mandates the specific slots items fill, and don't allow cheats. Ioun stones can be easily stolen, and rendered useless with antimagic, and then fall. Only Larloch himself should have two dozen Ioun stones around his head.
So, any hints as to likely time tables of Avangion updates?
Okay, I've asked. I'm also wondering what possible new stuff/other updates might be approaching.
Good question. Seker? I was expecting a post to the epic bureau with our revised versions...
I posted the updated avangion weeks ago on the bureau.... I will repost it today.
I will also post the other thing we have been talking about up there for everyone to look at.
If it just hasn't been long enough, ignore this post!!!:D
i think they are talking about boards that only athas.org members can use.
Not boards, mailing lists.
They´re there. Comment, templar!
What if the crystal tomb allows the Avangion to use whatever magic items are placed in it? The Avangion himself could be to frail to use any gear himself but he could be considered to be "wearing" any of the gear that he puts in the tomb up to normal humanoid limits. That would give him a huge advantage over a dragon who could have all his epic gear disjunctioned while the Avangion gear is safe in his crystal tomb on whatever demi-plane that he has made to hide it.
That is an interesting idea - though I do not see the metamorphosis spell would do this on its own, but I could totally see this as being either an epic item or seperate epic spell that could do the same thing.
One this to not here is this - while yes, the avangions true form is fragile, they are powerful psions and mages - more then likely they would have the means to still make physical attacks if they desired, just by changing forms. And with the regular polymorph spell, they would still retain their supernatural abilities.
Okay, bye now
Kal, we´re actually looking into something along those lines.
Have you guys been looking at the material on my computer again!!!
Strange!
The discussion about the problem with equipment and Avangions, from this very thread, prompted looking into that problem in the Bureau. The last suggestion you had given about a solution to the problem, is actually rather similar to what has already been proposed in the Bureau. :P
Mine was actually a adaptation of several other things - the assassin spell hide weapon, shrink item, a magical belt that stored armor from a Dragon mag, and the polymorph spell - conceptually mine allows for one to absorb and item into their body and ignore weight, though in the cast of armor the person still eeds the profincey(sp) and only the magical effect work - ie if a person were to absorb full plate+1, their AC would only be improved by +1 - though the effect can be ended as a swift action - allowing one to appear unarmed or unarmored and then have all their gear appear on them.
I developed a spell called veiled cache and then an item called the apparatus of the cache - working with the above spell to do this - the issue I have not worked out yet is that you are wearing and item to hide another item (the apparatus does not take up an item slot) - it seemed a bit off to me and I have yet to clarify the rules for the item totally - like the number of items it can effect at one time and some other details.
Just let me know.
Edit - Heck , I will just post'em this weekend anyway - I did not know that this thing would be of any significants for DS or i would have already done so.
So, keep an eye out for it.
This is the suggestion I was referring to:
Maybe the items could be kind of absorbed into their bodies - kind of like how when a druid wildshapes - they become a part of the creature, but still function - following the same rules for normal use of the items of course - so they could not absorbe a suit of full plate and get away with not having the spell failure chance - in that case I would be tempted to not allow the narmal armor bonus to work - maybe only the magical bonuses.
Oh - and the price of tea in China will depend on what you want and how much - but here you go :D
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=price+of+tea+in+china&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-37,GGLJ:en&sa=X&oi=froogle&ct=title
I think this is just meant as descriptive fluff, to try and describe such an ethereal and unearthly creature.----------
Any concealment of the avangions true form is lost at this stage. As enormous gossamer wings sprout from the back and shoulders. The wings themselves are filmy and nearly transparent, though they span about 20 feet. The avangion’s eyes become bright silver and the skin glitters in the sunlight.
All hair has vanished at this point and webs of filmy winglike material forms between the arms, torso, and their fingers and toes. Its existing wings form into multiple folds which can be extended out to a 25foot span.
At this point the original form starts to become lost in the wispy folds of its wings, which can now extend to a 30foot span. The jaw retracts while the eyes grow larger. The arms and legs grown thinner to the point where they can no longer support the their own
weight. The avangion now can only float or fly at all times. The avangion can also no longer wield hand held weapons or make standard unarmed attacks.
At this stage the avangion becomes far more mobile and graceful. Its incredible shining wings now span up to 40 feet, with the central body being now nearly lost in their folds. [Maybe its because I have such a set conception of what an Avangion is supposed to look like from the previously released dark sun material, but I have a hard time conceiving of these "folds" it gets lost in. Wispy ethereal wings with a body melded between them, sure, but folds?]
The original form is nearly lost at this point. The creature now has only a head and torso which are nearly lost among the near endless folds of its gossamer wings. The wing span is now about 50 feet when fully extended.
The wingspan at this point has increased to 65 foot.
Physically the avangion gains still more to its wings, now being an 80 foot span that nearly envelopes its torso and head. From a distance the avangion resembles a cloud of interwoven wings at this point.
In its final form the avangions wings span 90 feet.
------
Imagine the mechanics of a 90 foot reach if its wings and folds could manipulate objects?
Its this sentence which they make explicit. Its unclear how they manipulate other objects that aren't hand held weapons. However, if you can't manipulate hand held weapons, its an easy jump to say they can't manipulate other objects, especially since having no hands makes that pretty hard, and nothing else is given about manipulating items. Something explicit in the rules would be nice about how they manage wands, staves ,etc.
IF they cannot manipulate wands, staves, and rods, I think this is way to severe a restriction. If this is the case, Avangions need something in exchange for this loss in power and ability.
it couldn't be taken like a fighters sword or shield...an avangion was given boosts in magic and psionics.. higher wisdom (prime score for a psion in those days :P) more powers known, and no need for obsidian orbs.. a great benefit.. if Oronis were able to aquire the spell energy for sealing Rajaat, no orb shattering spell would slow him down..
Okay, I've babbled enough, and I'll hope that a good means to solve this question is thought up by folks more knowledgeable than I am. Good luck folks.
what about material components??
It's always been my opinion that since an Avangion's magic is generated internally and not from an outside source, that material components are unnecessary and it should be worked into the rules as such. An avangion is a producer, not a consumer, and it seems to me that needing material components just kind of kills the flavor.
It's always been my opinion that since an Avangion's magic is generated internally and not from an outside source, that material components are unnecessary and it should be worked into the rules as such. An avangion is a producer, not a consumer, and it seems to me that needing material components just kind of kills the flavor.
I like to agree with that, but is there a way that it balances? (oh god! did I actually say that?
) Can a "regular" character of the same level do that, without being Avangion? I suppose they could take the Ignore Material Components epic feat, but then, so can the Avangion. Maybe the feat can be worked into the transformation. As for being a producer, while I see where you are coming from, I don't know how well it would work. Sure, they don't drain the land around them as bad, but I think they still do, and materials are only there because the wizard knows how to use them to make something. If the Avangion weren't a wizard, he wouldn't know how to turn a fleck of cobwebs into a web spell. If they aren't paying out of their energy pool, power pool, or hit points, they have to pay SOMETHING, don't they? Okay, I'm done sounding like I'm talking down to folks, because I'm really not. It's just that, if someone wants to pick between material components and somatic components, I want the hand gestures problem solved first. Beholder mages can use spells with material components, and they have no limbs, so I'd imagine a mighty epic beast can also settle, or take the IMC feat.
Sort of on topic, images from my Dragon Kings book show Avangions as being mouthless. DO they lose their mouths, and the abilities of speech and verbal components, too? Is this going to be another issue?
To clarify what I mean by an Avangion not draining the earth at all, I'll have to find the exact reference, but in either DK or Defilers and Preservers, there is an explicit statement that Avangions produce their own spell energy, much like Psionic creatures and PCs produce their own Power Points.
Demiliches aren't really meant to be played as characters. In their case, they get bonuses that justify the loss of manipulation of objects. In the Avangion's case, this loss isn't balanced for some kind of gain. If you are a Demilich, you only need to take a human shape every hundred years or so to survey your domain. An Avangion is very much part of the world and needs to be able to manipulate his surroundings on a regular basis. Having to take human shape, or cast spells/manifest to do mundane tasks is ridiculous. Also, I would consider some kind of telepathic communication ability for the Avangions, because if they have no other form of communication, wasting spell slots to communicate is annoying.
Because it probably got lost somewhere in this thread, what does everyone think about the mobility of an Avangion. Do they levitate? Flap their wings to move about? Both? Do they have a default hover like the beholder? I think this is a very relevant question, because a Dm picking up these rules for Avangions without prior knowledge might have something entirely different in mind from what was intended by the designers.
I like that idea a lot, Sysane.
To clarify what I mean by an Avangion not draining the earth at all, I'll have to find the exact reference, but in either DK or Defilers and Preservers, there is an explicit statement that Avangions produce their own spell energy, much like Psionic creatures and PCs produce their own Power Points.
Even back in 2e I thought of Avangions (which admittedly weren't that fleshed out compared to dragons) as having the ability to gain life energy for spells from both animals and plants.. just like dragons do.. however, the avangion did so in such a way that a creature 'may' feel it's being tapped, but it won't suffer detrimentally.. (hence the preserving side) and furthermore, an avangion would 'typically' simply draw from itself (in 2e an avangion had far more hp than a dragon) and in so doing, be self generating, and in essence, it could therefore draw from itself to restore the land around it. And in such a way it would be a life generator, because it wouldn't harm itself in the process.
Just my thought..
I figure they default float like a beholder..
and as for the mouth issue, they must communicate in 'some' fashion, they do have that ESP and tongues ability.. so they do need to talk in some form.. though honestly I do kinda like the idea of a mental voice being projected
(how that would affect those mentally shielded I don't know) I think of it like a one way deal that has no PR or SR or save.. if it could be refined to only work on a group or on an individual that would be fun... but outta curiosity, if it has no mouth, and a spell requires the character to shout, or 'eat' something.. what can be done??I, too, want Avangions to float naturally, like a beholder. If the first thing a dragon does is ground me, I could be toast, especially if the second is to strafe me with his breath weapon from the air. What a pain that dragons can land and move still. Still, if a beholder is filled with buoyant gas, then maybe the folds of an Avangion's wings are, too. Something has to explain their moving, and they don't seem to have bones. From a "anatomically explained" view, gas pressure moving the wings is fine for me, and would grant the natural levitate.
I LOVE the idea of the Protoss echoing, pschic voice, and it shouldn't cost to use. I imagine the voice of Aldaris or Zeratul telling a dragon how terrible a crime they have committed, and then releasing a maximized twinned ultrablast at it. Especially with their required psionic power, telepathey seems fine. At the very least, a magic mouth is needed, if audible voice is required.
I agree that demiliches aren't the best example, but they did fit a number of the points, to me. And as for them not being PC, if I'm playing in a game where someone actually lets me play an Athas-style dragon, and Athas wasn't a lich-free zone, I bet that GM would let me play a demilich, instead. A dragon might even be able to see one and live. They don't fit, I admit (Dregoth not always withstanding), but it helped me voice my issues. Mostly, I just wanted an example of a critter that I knew a good deal about, and that everyone had probably read about, already. Hell, if nothing else, I suppose I just love demiliches.
Rather than Componentless Casting, maybe Avangions could do something like learn to cast all spells (non-epic) as if they were psionic powers. Still use the spell slots, and maybe have the material components on hand/in a pocket, but need no speaking or moving. They are supposed to be mighty psions, too, and learn to cast spells with psionic components, or meld the two together in new ways.
Okay, I'm done now, and I'll wait for critiques. Be well everyone.
That very thing is why I cared more about the folks at Athas.org giving them a Perfect Automatic Still Spell ability, before taking care of components. As for a lack of mouth, yeah, I don't know exactly what they'd do.
Well, I'll bring it up in the bureau.
As for being life generators, I have never known Avangions to not damage the earth (Athas) slightly, like all Preservers do.
Actually, that was one of the reasons I wanted to integrate the idea that the Avangion sacrifices magical items throughout the metamorphosis spell series. It was a notion that actually did spawn from the "Tribe of One" series (I believe), where there was a depiction of an "Avangion" taking magical items and physically bonding with them. Magic items seem to be able to retain their energy, without expending it. If the Avangion began up a series of sacrificing these items (leading up to sacrificing artifact-level items; the whole process of finding the items alone could be the basis for an entire epic campaign), absorbing and integrating that process of retaining an basically building a magical source within the Avangion, then that Avangion would basically become like a capacitor for life-energy. Life-energy the Avangion draws and stores from itself, within itself, for use with its own spells.
In the 2e materials, it describes that Preservers actually take a little of their own life-energy to replenish what they have taken from the plants around them. I think that the Avangions master this ability, and expand on it, eventually no longer requiring an external source of energy to cast spells from,. They simply generate enough energy within themselves to handle the amount of spells that they can cast. The result is that it appears that the Avangion is able to use energy from seemingly nowhere, but the actual truth is that the Avangion is very slowly and subtlely drawing energy from itself continuously and effectively "stockpiling it" (retaining the energy, much like how a magic item can retain its own energy indefinitely) for use in their spells as they need it. The Avangion never takes more than it needs.
I had originally also considered that this could be used in conjunction with the idea of the Avangion restoring the land -- by sacrificing spell slots (effectively, reflecting the stored-up energy the Avangion has for the day), and different-level slots restore a proportionate amount of land from the effects of defiling (it won't make plants suddenly appear, but simply make the land no longer sterile).
If there isn't a god supplying magic, or a Weave to draw from, one needs to take the energy from somewhere. If my Avangion were going to say "I draw no energy from the land or life of Athas", he'd better be able to prove that he draws from the Black, the Gray, or the Cerulean Storm, because they are the only other sources I can just think of, and it surprises me that more wizards don't persue one of the three prestige classes that draw on the above energy types.
I rule in my campaigns, that those who do go down the alternative energy paths, still run the risk of defiling addiction in my campaigns. Why? Because the addiction isn't so much tied to the eradication/defilement of the plant life, but the uncontrolled surge of energy running through the arcane spellcaster. When you aren't destroying tracts of land and plant life in an area, then you are left believing (erroneously) that by using these alternative energy sources makes you less restricted, and become more likely to be careless.
My Avangion probably wouldn't spend the levels on one, in favor of gaining more Avangion power. If the Avangion prestige class gains an ability, such as "[i]White Casting:[/i] the Avangion learns to draw energy from the Positive Energy Plane, to substitute energy for that they would normally draw from the lands", then I'd go for it. If Athas is connected to the Gray (negative energy, I believe, with undead, and if cleric's can still cast healing magics, then I'd argue Athas must have at least a weak connection to the PEP, and they could feasbly learn to draw from that infinite place. Life energy fuels spells, and Positive Energy=Life Energy.
If you believe that there IS a Positive Energy Plane for Athas. Honestly, the problem is that in some books, it states there isn't.
Otherwise, they would need to partially defile the land, as all wizards do, or defile themselves, and sacrifice their own greater power, if they wish to preserve the world more.
See my above explanation.
If Avangions CAN be evil now, then nothing says that they care if Athas gets slightly damaged.
There was nothing in the 2e materials that said Avangions can't be evil, to my knowledge. The only thing that was stated was that Defilers (and by proxy, Dragons) can't be good.
So long as they don't fully defile, there will still be energy for their spells later, and they will stay powerful. If something isn't damaged, then they seem to be cheating.
Once again, see my above explanation.
One of the prices of using magic on Athas is that no other being protects the world from the damage, kind of like pre-Moons Dragonlance. The world almost bought it, and so Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari offered education, and energy, to protect Krynn. Well, Athas has none of this, and so wizards gotta pay.
Actually, I see Arcane magic on Athas being radically different than Arcane magic on any other world. It is a bastard, twisted version of the Arcane, spawned from the mind of a twisted and monsterous individual. I don't thing "normal" D&D Arcane magic even functions on Athas (and thus I've ruled that if an arcane spellcaster was to come from another world to Athas somehow, they'd be in for a rude awakening). Athasian Arcane magic is an abomination to nature, really. Created by an insane individual, and taught under false pretenses to the population. It was used as a tool by this individual to accomplish his mad goals.
I, too, want Avangions to float naturally, like a beholder. If the first thing a dragon does is ground me, I could be toast, especially if the second is to strafe me with his breath weapon from the air. What a pain that dragons can land and move still. Still, if a beholder is filled with buoyant gas, then maybe the folds of an Avangion's wings are, too. Something has to explain their moving, and they don't seem to have bones. From a "anatomically explained" view, gas pressure moving the wings is fine for me, and would grant the natural levitate.
We're getting that in the next Avangion write-up/release.
I LOVE the idea of the Protoss echoing, pschic voice, and it shouldn't cost to use. I imagine the voice of Aldaris or Zeratul telling a dragon how terrible a crime they have committed, and then releasing a maximized twinned ultrablast at it. Especially with their required psionic power, telepathey seems fine. At the very least, a magic mouth is needed, if audible voice is required.
I tend to see them as communicating telepathically, and using telekinesis to move things around that they need. Avangions, after all, are pretty strong in psionics.
Rather than Componentless Casting, maybe Avangions could do something like learn to cast all spells (non-epic) as if they were psionic powers. Still use the spell slots, and maybe have the material components on hand/in a pocket, but need no speaking or moving. They are supposed to be mighty psions, too, and learn to cast spells with psionic components, or meld the two together in new ways.
Actually, that was ONE of the directions I was trying to go with my redefinition of Psionic Enchantments that ALL Advanced Beings can use. The ability to mix/blend psionics and magic in ways otherwise impossible, like being able to use spells like psionic powers, or to use psionic powers like spells; the ability to freely mix and match metamagic & metapsionic feats, etc. However, much of this was stripped out of the idea (which still somewhat irks me). The current design of the Psionic Enchantments rules, is what was deemed as "potentially not unbalancing".
It's been about a month, and no one's said anything. I thought I'd risk the waters and ask about the Avangion update. There, now I've said it. Hope to hear something about it soon. Since the dragon is ready and raring to go, I want an avangion to spar with it, that won't need a rewrite in a week.
Hope everyone's good otherwise.
Bit of a fluff question. If I am playing a character who has chosen to devote his life to being a wizard, a dangerous vocation, what sort of motivation might one give for that character to dual-class into psionics, so that Avangion or Dragon are viable? I suppose the root question is, if you were playing a character who, out of game, was to be run toward achieving that goal (Avangion or Dragon), what is supposed to provoke them to learn magic (dangerous) if they were psions, or the mind (a different direction), if they were a wizard? With the lore of dragons and avangions being so rare, I just want to know, in-character, what might persuade a character to fill both vocations, as they are both necessary to achieve Avangiondom. Help please?
Here is the link - http://www.athas.org/releases/advancedbeings/Avangion-r2.pdf
So stay thy wroth, mighty warrior; least thy demise be tearful and short!
[sorry – the muse picks strange time to make me write strange things :D]
:fight!: I come prepared for anger :fight!:
It's been about a month, and no one's said anything. I thought I'd risk the waters and ask about the Avangion update. There, now I've said it. Hope to hear something about it soon. Since the dragon is ready and raring to go, I want an avangion to spar with it, that won't need a rewrite in a week.
In case you missed the revised Avangion rules thread.
And for the record, the Dragon class is due for a few revisions, as we work on the Avangion. And odds are both Avangions and Dragons will possibly get some additional adjustments when we tackle the Elementals and the Spirits of the Land. So, if you are wanting something set in stone, I'd say you won't find that until the Advanced Beings are all completed. In the meantime, you just might have to live with some rewrites to characters you make that are Advanced Beings. We will try and keep the changes minimal, but I personally cannot give any promises.
Bit of a fluff question. If I am playing a character who has chosen to devote his life to being a wizard, a dangerous vocation, what sort of motivation might one give for that character to dual-class into psionics, so that Avangion or Dragon are viable? I suppose the root question is, if you were playing a character who, out of game, was to be run toward achieving that goal (Avangion or Dragon), what is supposed to provoke them to learn magic (dangerous) if they were psions, or the mind (a different direction), if they were a wizard? With the lore of dragons and avangions being so rare, I just want to know, in-character, what might persuade a character to fill both vocations, as they are both necessary to achieve Avangiondom. Help please?
Depends on your viewpoint I guess. For my campaigns, Psionics tends to be viewed as the "natural order of things" in most societies. Developing as an arcane spellcaster to start, I don't think that people will see Psionics as a completely different and foreign direction (even though, technically it is), but rather development of one's true self and capabilities. The general consensus among the population is that everyone's at least a little psionic (the truth of that statement could be in doubt). Let's say you've spent your life flying airplaines. What would be your motivation to learn how to operate a sailboat? They are completely different directions, but both move you from point "A" to point "B".
Adventure, exploration, introspection, and self-discovery can lead to this split. And that isn't taking into consideration the draw to acquire more power.
:fight!: I come prepared for anger :fight!:
Bit of a fluff question. If I am playing a character who has chosen to devote his life to being a wizard, a dangerous vocation, what sort of motivation might one give for that character to dual-class into psionics, so that Avangion or Dragon are viable? I suppose the root question is, if you were playing a character who, out of game, was to be run toward achieving that goal (Avangion or Dragon), what is supposed to provoke them to learn magic (dangerous) if they were psions, or the mind (a different direction), if they were a wizard? With the lore of dragons and avangions being so rare, I just want to know, in-character, what might persuade a character to fill both vocations, as they are both necessary to achieve Avangiondom. Help please?
I'd say any old legend will do.. that, and basic survival. :P Let's say you're a theif.. only, you're not going to be skulking around the cities anymore, you're going to be out in the woods primarily... you might take a feat or some skill points to help you out.. maybe even grab some levels in ranger... why? so you'd be able to survive :P ... now.. you're a wizard... you intend to go up against, or at least defend against dragons and SK's, who are known masters of wizardry and of the way... so you learn both magic and psionics to defend kind with kind... magic vs magic, psionics vs psionics.. like knowing how to survive in the wilderness by leading one pack of predators into another so you escape, or knowing where water is to be found out in the wilderness verses a free meal in the cities... same theme, different means... if that makes sense...
or there's just basic power :P for those going the dragon route... and the ability to hide in the case of avangion aspirants... there 'are' powers that a psion gets that a wizard does not.. at least until more spells are made ;) also.. a wizard who knows some psionics has a method of power that is open to public observation without an instant lynching! :D always a nice thing.
Where I can find the Arcane Augmentation and Embed Spell Focus feats from the avangion bonus feat list?
I have to agree with the people saying that it is not right that advanced beings should have to worry about the power point cost. Being an advanced being is about power, not about balance. Becoming an advanced being in Dark Sun should be the equivalent of apotheosis in a regular D&D game.
In the 2nd edition, dragons continued to gain psionic abilities as they increased in stages. There is no reason why they should not in 3.5.
My solution is that dragons should get +1 level of existing manifesting class every time they increase in dragon stage, minus any other benefits of the manifesting class. Dragons should get +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class every second dragon stage, starting at 2nd level. So, 2, 4, 6, etc, minus any other benefits of the arcane spellcasting class.
Avangions the same except they should get +1 level of existing manifesting class and +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class at every avangion stage, minus any other benefits of the manifesting class or arcane spellcasting class. The slight spellcasting edge makes up for the fact that an Avangion probably couldn't beat a dragon in a straight fight, plus the fact that Avangions are probably of a more contemplative nature than Dragons.
The dragons and Avangions in the Legends of Athas beta are way underpowered and will easily be overwhelmed by single classed characters of similar level. Also, the benefits of becoming a Dragon or Avangion are not apparent, so it would be a wonder why a character would want to pursue that path.
Finally, the way I see it is that it should be almost impossible for a player character to become an advanced being, but if they manage it, they deserve to be rewarded. They should be feared or held in awe. If there existence becomes known they should be hailed as saviors, or denounced as destroyers, by the people of Athas. This is consistent with the feel of the 2nd ed Dragon Kings source book. Worries about balance should be addressed by not permitting characters to become advanced beings. However, even if you as DM have made a decision not to allow it, it should not stop you from holding it in front of the players as a carrot. No one said every quest had to be successful.
BTW, is it possible to have this thread moved to the Darksun forum?
BTW, is it possible to have this thread moved to the Darksun forum?
I submitted a request to move this thread here:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1097555
Does not look like it has been moved yet but give them time.