"The resulting devastation created a sunwarped flat that encompassed the entire city-state, and the Sorcerer-Kings declared that knowledge of the city, even its name, was forbidden. According to this legend, the doomed city-state lies ruined in the deep desert, its buildings twisted and shattered by long exposure to sunwarped magic, its streets and catacombs filled with sunwarped wretches and the treasure of a fallen Sorcerer-King awaiting someone capable of seizing it."
For me, this is an example of bad design. I admit it's a fine line but this is bad information that I think should be more concrete.
There were only so many City States. Nine total in the original boxed set, perhaps a dozen with the expanded boxed set. In general, though, the idea is that there aren't a lot. So, what I don't like about this is instead of saying specifically what city state it was, it leaves it up to the DM. This is the kind of thing that got TSR/WotC in trouble with FR lore. By not being specific about certain things, things that may be explored later by novels or supplements, if they are specific about it later, they negate what they told us in vague terms. And why people who tried to follow canon got so mad.
It's a fine line but there it is.
It would be nice to know they have a "bible" on the setting, know the answers to these questions now and can eventually reveal them, instead of things completely changing when a new person is put in charge.
In fact, with their new model on worlds, I don't know why they don't give us defined things, "here's our vision with a few ideas for other timelines". Having something definite to work from is much better, imo, than something so vague that I still have to fill in the blanks.
It's not that I can't do this for my group, and if this is how it's done I will have to, but it's what I want the professional designers to have already done for me. I would rather them create something with concrete ideas and timelines and leave it up to me to change it rather than me having to do the timelines.
turlough
There were only so many City States. Nine total in the original boxed set, perhaps a dozen with the expanded boxed set. In general, though, the idea is that there aren't a lot. So, what I don't like about this is instead of saying specifically what city state it was, it leaves it up to the DM. This is the kind of thing that got TSR/WotC in trouble with FR lore. By not being specific about certain things, things that may be explored later by novels or supplements, if they are specific about it later, they negate what they told us in vague terms. And why people who tried to follow canon got so mad.
Curiously enough, you are pointing out a flaw, in a setting filled with flaws. In the setting itself, there is little to no literacy, and history is uncertain -- those that hold the keys to history tend to lie heavily about it. Maybe there are unknown, lost city-states out there. I mean, depending on which version of the setting you are dealing with, it says the SK's have been in charge for either 1,000 or 2,000 years... to me, that suggests that the people really don't know, and the SK's are the only ones left that could know -- and they aren't the most trustworthy of people (Ok, the Order and the Mind Lords also probably know too... but who can trust them?)
Even though, as Penn says, the article apparently claims it is a legend, even if it wasn't -- it still could work. What does a lost, forgotten city-state and a lost, forgotten sorcerer-king really do to harm Dark Sun?
Centaurs, Gnolls, Hobgoblins, Bullywugs, Illithids, to name just a few.
I think, when a game designer gives me a world, I want facts.
What I quoted earlier doesn't get excused if it's a legend, unless it's also explained there were once 500 city states. Granted, it leaves the question of where they were or how they fit in the Tablelands but that's a different issue.
Given us a series of legends, myths and folklore doesn't work without grounded facts. We need a foundation before we can have anything else and it has to be a solid foundation.
For example, we can be told the facts. Kalak is dead. That's a fact. However, there are lots of things around that that can be built. There is a group of nobles that think he will return and they are acting as if he will. Again, a fact and it opens up a lot of ideas. However, the item above is a bunch of vague stuff on top of vague stuff.
Now, I realize this sounds like me criticizing something I haven't read. I will be buying it! I want it! I am merely *hoping* that we get a good foundation of how they envision it. It makes it easier when I go off and do my own thing.
turlough
I didn't explain myself well and didn't think of this until later. And I'm pressed for time again at this moment, so we will see how it goes.
I think, when a game designer gives me a world, I want facts.
What I quoted earlier doesn't get excused if it's a legend, unless it's also explained there were once 500 city states. Granted, it leaves the question of where they were or how they fit in the Tablelands but that's a different issue.
Given us a series of legends, myths and folklore doesn't work without grounded facts. We need a foundation before we can have anything else and it has to be a solid foundation.
For example, we can be told the facts. Kalak is dead. That's a fact. However, there are lots of things around that that can be built. There is a group of nobles that think he will return and they are acting as if he will. Again, a fact and it opens up a lot of ideas. However, the item above is a bunch of vague stuff on top of vague stuff.
Now, I realize this sounds like me criticizing something I haven't read. I will be buying it! I want it! I am merely *hoping* that we get a good foundation of how they envision it. It makes it easier when I go off and do my own thing.
turlough
Let me get this straight -- you want facts about a fantasy world with magical/psionic man-dragons ruling the remnants of civilization?
The whole thing is a story. Honestly, I think it fits quite well with Dark Sun for there to be legends, myths, and stories about them -- I have liked that the setting is riddled with (and it really is, throughout the 2e and 3e incarnations) errors, inconsistencies, etc. To me, it fits well, because it gives the impression that the people there really don't know everything. Most of the written histories are either, destroyed, lost, or in some sorcerer-king's vault. There is a lot to be said about verbal history, but that can be manipulated pretty well (psionic man-dragons rule everything, remember?) -- what the people know, for the most part, is what they've been told. And every one of the major players on Athas has some particular purpose and design to what he or she says. Nothing can be trusted, the Athasian history just plain isn't known. What if the SK's conspired to hide other Champions? Heck, they could have conspired to hide a lot about Athas' history. It wouldn't be too big a conspiracy either -- there's less than a dozen of them left, and they (according to history) have worked together before. Maybe the Cleansing Wars are a ruse... maybe they aren't. Maybe the SK's have been in control for 8,000 years rather than the... what, 1,000? 2,000? depends on the source book, years that they supposedly have been in charge. Maybe there were Champions for every single race that is on Athas. Maybe the whole Champion thing is a ruse. The only word the people have to go on about this is.... the SK's. And, like I mentioned earlier, they can't be trusted.
I think, when a game designer gives me a world, I want facts.
We all do Turlough - but I also think it is very limiting to say everything about a world. For two reasons: 1) it removes the air of mystery surrounding the uncharted regions of the world and 2) not very customizable.
The current 4E design is the "points of light" setting design, where there are places where a lot is known (symbolized by the bright lights) and places where everything is completely dark (like the black regions between the stars). This gives players the opportunity to explore these dark areas, and allows for DMs to have complete freedom in developing the setting, the history, the "facts".
Dark Sun fits the "points of light" theme perfectly. Anything in the wastes, especially off caravan trade routes or off silt trails, is "unknown". These places make perfect places for adventures.
Heck, they could have conspired to hide a lot about Athas' history. It wouldn't be too big a conspiracy either -- there's less than a dozen of them left, and they (according to history) have worked together before. Maybe the Cleansing Wars are a ruse... maybe they aren't. Maybe the SK's have been in control for 8,000 years rather than the... what, 1,000? 2,000? depends on the source book, years that they supposedly have been in charge. Maybe there were Champions for every single race that is on Athas. Maybe the whole Champion thing is a ruse. The only word the people have to go on about this is.... the SK's. And, like I mentioned earlier, they can't be trusted.
This made me think of The Matrix, and how it was a big reveal in the sequels that the machines periodically wipe out Zion. And then repopulate it with people who assume that they're the first humans to become free.
In any case, the only fictional "facts" I need are about the starting state of the world that the players will be expecting. It's one of the reasons I almost always homebrew my settings, so that the players only know their recent history and common legends of the region's history. D&D is about uncovering the past, revealing lies, and dealing with the consequences of history. Since Dark Sun is going to combine player and DM information in a single Campaign Guide I think it's beneficial to the setting to have vague idea-starters, things that inspire DMs without telling them step-by-step what to do, and conveys the tone of the setting to a player without spoiling anything for them.
I hate facts. Rather, I hate the canon-fanboism facts produce.
It drags down every setting ever. It turns playing RPGs into reading a novel -- let me say that again, because it is important, it turns the act of creation into one of passive absorbtion. It is one of the big reasons I pretty much despise all settings and game materials from the 90's, especially late 90's stuff: they are not "game material" because they do not provide things to game with.
The difference between gaming material and the stuff that was put out in the 90's is twofold, first: gaming material is obvious hooks from which to build characters and adventures -- short or long term -- just an outline of what people want, who is in their way and why, what they'll do to get where they want to be, and consequences of doing/not doing. Actual adventure seeds instead of just empty gamebook fluff (pages and pages of things like: "the river is 52 degrees in summer, and 36 degrees throughout the winter" and "Denari gold coins are 1 gram heavier than Goldan coins" and "so-and-so doesn't like so-and-so" etc).
The second part is: I would argue copious amounts of detail are, in fact, what got FR in trouble. They choked the setting, stifled it such that there was no real room for people to make it their own, brought about the reign of the designer's NPCs (NPCs who are more important and integral to the world than the PCs, for whom the PCs end up being errand-boys and proxies, rather than living characters -- this includes both the "Elminster saves the world again" and "We'll watch as you advance the metaplot" problems in various settings, as well as various games such as WoD and esp. 7th Sea).
Being vague can and does allow greater creativity at the table for a group. Though too much vagueness can be highly problematic as well: see the 1st Edition Immortal RPG -- absolutely gorgeous game famous for briefly mentioning but failing to detail most of the important setting material, like bad guys, the mystical realms, artifacts, power groups.
In this case, however, what other information do we really, actually, honestly need for it in play? A city destroyed by something called "sunwarping" (which I assume is explained in the article) whose ruins are lost somewhere in the desert, that knowledge of was erased sometime in the past, and is full of treasure and monsters.
I think, when a game designer gives me a world, I want facts.
You did get some facts. You got the fact that Sunwarped Flats exist, what effects they have on the environments, the inhabitants in those areas etc.
You also got some legends. City state stuff, rumor that a SK would like to learn the secrets of the Sunwarped Flats to create a new superior servitor race. I love Dregoth, and how he's going to fit into 4E interests me. Perhaps this is going to be related to his desire to make the superior race of Dray.
If anything this is an article that has a little bit of everything for everyone. I hope to see many more just like it.
This is a quote from the Sunwarped Flats of Athas article in Dungeon 179.
Awesome! inside info! I never get to hear about anything until my friends bring over a print out. They never let me get a peek at preview articles....
"The resulting devastation created a sunwarped flat that encompassed the entire city-state,
and the Sorcerer-Kings declared that knowledge of the city, even its name, was forbidden.
Because it's the athasian Area 51, where the sorcererkings keep the alien remains, the alien spelljammers and the experimental "focused solar weaponry". ( No githyanki were willing to comment on this subject)
According to this legend, the doomed city-state lies ruined in the deep desert, its buildings twisted and shattered by long exposure to sunwarped magic, its streets and catacombs filled with sunwarped wretches and the treasure of a fallen Sorcerer-King awaiting someone capable of seizing it."
I don't know much about "sunwarped", anyone care to fill me in on this new concept?
There were only so many City States. Nine total in the original boxed set, perhaps a dozen with the expanded boxed set.
All I can say to this is exactly what everyone has said to me. This isn't 2e. Things-be-a-changin.
So, what I don't like about this is instead of saying specifically what city state it was, it leaves it up to the DM.
Which is freaking awesome and I hope they NEVER go into detail about this city-state. It's about time US darksun DMs got a freakin creative pass, so we can create our own sorcererking, city-state and history of both. I might finally be able to make the fraggleflayer, slayer of carebears.
This is the kind of thing that got TSR/WotC in trouble with FR lore. By not being specific about certain things, things that may be explored later by novels or supplements, if they are specific about it later, they negate what they told us in vague terms. And why people who tried to follow canon got so mad.
Dragonlance did this. I love dragonlance but it's canon was so tightly wrapped around so much of the game, that it became suffocating to try and build adventures without a stack of novels sitting in front of me. I eventually had to divorce MY gameworld from the novel line completely so that I could actually run a dragonlance game without having a panic attack. Canonjunkies (superfanboys) would hate my dragonlance games.
It would be nice to know they have a "bible" on the setting, know the answers to these questions now and can eventually reveal them, instead of things completely changing when a new person is put in charge.
I agree that there should be a design "facts list" so the designers know what is what and no mistakes get made. (oops the eye patch was on the other eye last shot!, quick, someone call chuck norris!) But as a DM, player and a paying customer, I NEVER want canon to put a chokehold on the game again. Might as well open the book to the first page and read ("Do not modify or deviate from the written word found here-in or thou shall fail" Do not exercise creative additions or thou shall be burned by thine peers")
Having something definite to work from is much better, imo, than something so vague that I still have to fill in the blanks.
I... don't know what to say. I love to fill in the blanks. I can run a published setting while still making it my own setting and not need to go to war with the fanbase over the religion that is canon.
I would rather them create something with concrete ideas and timelines and leave it up to me to change it rather than me having to do the timelines.
I might have agreed with you once, before I played/ran games with dragonlance fans and forgotten realm fans. I'm still haunted by the memories of " NO! That never happened!Darthvader never killed the emperor and ruled the empire himself! NO! Raistlin wasn't defeated by fistandantilus! NO!!! Drizzt never turned EVIL! Or my current favorite, NO!!! Gnomes didn't survive and thrikreen never ride mounts in DARKSUN, hur dur, go play world of warcraft.
The only thing actually keeping me in a hobby filled with anal, continuity tyrants, is that my own group doesn't do any of that for the most part. (although one of my friends is a dragonlance fiend and he often has to blurt out "not official" when I change something, cause he's an ass)
As a DM, I need some room to breath and add my own ideas to a setting. I don't always want to have to squeeze my ideas in between official canon.
I would argue copious amounts of detail are, in fact, what got FR in trouble. They choked the setting, stifled it such that there was no real room for people to make it their own, . . .
Firm agreement. I was a huge fan of FR from the Gray Box, but it diminished with the years. I have admiration for it, but I cannot play in it now because the copious amount of detail that have been absorbed by us players allows far too much inappropriate metagaming at the table about story elements. As far as generica TSR fantasy goes, my preferences lie towards Mystara now because while Mystara's scope is even larger than FR, it covers things in tiny helpings, not encyclopedic treatises that allows individual DMs to take what they want and tailor for themselves.
I like Dark Sun peppered with a healthy amount of legends that are factually untrue, but the players have no way of verifying it other than interacting with their DM's own version of Dark Sun. The original boxed set and many accessories were filled with exactly these kinds of elements and I'm glad to see it used yet again.
Besides, from the pedantic point of view, by what rationale are we to assume that because there are only "some number" of City-States now, that there have only ever been precisely "some number" of City-States. Why not accept that all the City-States today have Sorcerer-Kings and there are no City-State without Sorcerer-Kings because over the centuries those City-States without Sorcerer-Kings were at a such an overwhelming disadvantage (they lacked a Sorcerer-King!) that none of those City-States survived the centuries of warfare. Heck lacking a Sorcerer-King might even paint a giant bullseye on your city. After all those centuries, all we are left with are City-States with Sorcerer-Kings, and even that wasn't enough because even some of those City-States were wiped off.
How far back in time are you willing to say, "okay, now there are more city-states than the few the Sorcerer-Kings squatted on"?
I want a firm foundation of facts before we get into rumors. It does me no good to know the rumors of a place without knowing what's true. Further, regardless of when they are starting, they are starting at some point X. Anything that comes after X is up to me, given how they are doing settings now. Anything before X, though, is fair game for them to do with whatever they want. Sure, I can do it but that's the point of buying a world!
Do I want inconsistencies? Yes! In legends and rumors, let there be inconsistencies. But I don't want inconsistencies in my facts.
Are facts boring? In and of themselves, yes. But they can also lead to a lot of good discussions! It's a fact that Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon and so started the civil war. But *why* he did it is a compoletely different matter! Was it to restore the Republic? Because he was personally slighted? That fact has led to some very good debates!
"Of course truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense." Mark Twain
One of the worst things that the a game world can do, imo, is not make sense to the DM. For anything that I, as the DM, have to do, imo, the designers failed. But, I am talking at the base fact level. This is what happened in history. People A say it means this, people B say it means this. But here is the fact.
The best example I can think of for this is Exalted. 2nd edition Exalted is full of facts. And it's awesome to read them and how they make them into rumors and stories or twist them to suit someone else's needs.
So, to get back to my own main point, again, I am going by rumor. The rumor is that they are going back to the main boxed set, which had seven city states with SKs (although they are killing Kalak, but who says he has to remain dead?) and two dead ones. That's the map. That's a fact. To say that there is some city state that was destroyed by Sunscorched Lands IS cool. Don't get me wrong. But, we already know, from the boxed set, about all of the city states with SKs. So, I am hopeful they will have new facts about new city states to help fit this legend into it. That's all I am saying. Otherwise, it's just some random thing thrown out there with no meaning attached to it. A story within a fictional world. It's interesting but not as useful to me in a setting.
btw, FR was ruined by new staff coming in and doing their own thing, not a preponderance of information. It doesn't help when Cloak and Dagger introduces six different things, obviously going in a particular direciton, and the next few books work to contradict four of them! In that case, it was new people making up new facts, which contradicted old facts. There's little we, as consumers, can do when the publisher doesn't stay consistent.
Thanks for the good discussion!
turlough
...a hobby filled with anal, continuity tyrants...
Most awesome quote ever. (Actually, I think most fandom is like this, not just gamers.)
So, to get back to my own main point, again, I am going by rumor. The rumor is that they are going back to the main boxed set, which had seven city states with SKs (although they are killing Kalak, but who says he has to remain dead?) and two dead ones. That's the map. That's a fact.
It sounds like your problem is that they used the word "city-state". Because my reading of the Wanderer's Journal. Reading the last four paragraphs of the "Ruins" section of the "Tablelands" portion of the Athasian Geography chapter.
Page 52-53: "In the Tablelands of the Tyr region, a handful of ruined cities lie half-buried in dust, sand, or salt. Although the locations of these cities are well known, they are relatively untouched. Exploring a city ruin is a major undertaking, for they cover tens of thousands of acres and are often buried beneath a thick layer of windblown sediment. In addition, most serve as either the home of a raiding tribe or the lair of dozens of vicious creatures, so it is common for adventurers entering city ruins to not return.
The eight cities that I know of (and have visited personally) are described in Chapter Four: Atlas of the Tyr Region. The vast majority of these ruined cities date from ancient times. In many ways, they resemble the ancient village ruins, save that everything is on a much grander scale. In the center of a city, there is a massive fortress-town in place of a castle. There is dozens of huge temples instead of a single small one; there are thousands of collapsed buildings, each with a cellar or basement in its foundation. Finally, most have large subterranean sewers and catacombs into which much of the city's treasure has been dragged over the centuries by successive generations of monsters.
Two of the ruins cities that I know of date from our own era. Of course, they resemble our modern cities in layout. The prime areas of economic importance (the merchant emporiums, the noble estates, the templar houses, and the sorcerer-king's fortress) have already been thoroughly explored and looted. There is little reason to visit these two cities except for curiosity's sake. Considering what abides there now, I am not curious.
Of course, there may well be cities that no one has discovered yet. Who has not heard stories of a lost city of steel lying buried beneath a mammoth mekillot dune, or listen in awe to the bards who sing of the dwarves' Lost City of Gold?"
In this passage, even the city states were called simply cities. It references many ruins of past cities. So it seems like you are balking at the word city-state in place of city.
So, I am hopeful they will have new facts about new city states to help fit this legend into it. That's all I am saying. Otherwise, it's just some random thing thrown out there with no meaning attached to it. A story within a fictional world. It's interesting but not as useful to me in a setting.
How the heck is "there's a legendary city-state out there in the wastelands full of sunwarped creatures and treasure" meaningless?!? We now have enough details to drop a ruined city-state somewhere in our campaign without having to worry about matching things specifically to canon, we can even call it a rumor OR a reality, depending on what we want to do with our personal campaigns.
Why do we need concrete details on it? We know the world was destroyed ages ago and ruins dot the wasteland...why do we need to know the exacting details of every stinking rock baking under the sun and whether one rumor is true and another false? So I'm completely with Eric on his calling you out on the whole "number of city-states" thing.
(Also, Eric, I agree about Mystara being great. It really does give you just enough to have a good direction, but not so much you're constrained to someone else's vision of it. Actually, you know what I'd love to see happen with Dark Sun? A series of supplements that completely, obviously, and willfully contradict one another. It would definitely fit the world, and it would kill these stupid "canon" arguments.)
btw, FR was ruined by new staff coming in and doing their own thing, not a preponderance of information.
In your opinion. And perhaps "the new staff" might have contributed to it's downfall -- whomever you might be referring to and whenever you might be referring to -- but as an original fan of the FR gray box, I have to say as they added more-and-more overly detailed, concrete information, and stacks-and-stacks of new books with more and more facts, the world became less-and-less interesting as a game world. The exact same thing happened with the WoD and its endless splats (particularly V:tES).
Regarding spelling-it-out for the DM or not.. providing it doesn't get touched or retconned with a name/plot in the future, I'm fine for a mix. ;)
On one hand, having so much fluff and facts about places and villains and empires and legends was a great thing; however, both Greenwood and the design teams over the years obsessed themselves to answer all questions with the most obnoxious, boring and poorly thought out Mary Sue characters and either clichèd or downright absurd (Elminster in Hell?) plots that killed all the fun.
The core problem with FR is that it's HUGE, but literally filled with so much crap that making room for actually interesting stories is a pain. You literally can't move 5 feet without stumbling into a hero that is literally cut out of cardboard and has 32 levels more than your party. You can't bring in any of the interesting NPCs and villains without having a player pointing out that the guy couldn't be there because he's already fighting Mary Sue XXX this year or that his motives were detailed in the last 3 novels were, btw, he dies, and not at the hand of the party, so whatever you do this adventure, make sure he survives.
It's already bad enough that by now FR is a setting that you witness more than one that you play; the fact that the show is by now a parody doesn't help.
I'll take a setting where villains are all alive, where heroes are the players and not some senile writer's compensation fantasy and where I can decide what happens next without being contradicted around 3 times a year over FR any day.
Which is one reason I don't play FR. The " No! That didn't happen! Factor." The other reason is because I don't want to search through 100lbs of books. The moment I can offload my FR collection, I'm going to do it, along with all the rest of my old D&D stuff I'll never use again.
But the thought of digging through storage, eliminating any mites that might be living in those boxes and then cataloging everything I have, is a daunting goal. Easier to spent the money on storage... Which is one reason why I'm always broke.
If it weren't for D&D, I'd have a new computer and a freaking car.
(joking my medical bills keep me broke, not my D&D addiction)
Yes, this is all in my opinion.
I'm just stating what would work for me.
In some ways, I am lucky as my current group doesn't read the DND books, especially not the setting books. A few players have a few books but not everything between them. (Regardless of what setting we are using.) So, for me, having the world more fleshed out is great as I can work in what I want, change what I want and the players won't know. They certainly don't argue!
Of course, this can also be a downside as well.
Thanks for the discussion.
turlough
It does me no good to know the rumors of a place without knowing what's true.
See, I'm the complete opposite. Rumors do me much more good than a list of facts.
As a side note, did anyone else feel that this was the hook for one of the presently absent races, like the tieflings?
It does me no good to know the rumors of a place without knowing what's true.
See, I'm the complete opposite. Rumors do me much more good than a list of facts.
As a side note, did anyone else feel that this was the hook for one of the presently absent races, like the tieflings?
Likewise. A list of FACTS has precisely the opposite end result that turlough states he wants. It results in those players who DO know the setting knowing exactly when the DM is altering the world. On the other hand, a rumor, legend, rough layout, mystery, et al, is completely open-ended, allowing every single campaign to have a unique take without ever altering the "canon" (an issue with some players).
Moreover, on a world like Athas there is so little history that having such mysteries and contradictory information fits absolutely perfectly.
Although eberron isn't darksun, so it gets to fight dragonlance for second place on my shelf.
Okay, I'm not sure that people understand what I am saying. If you did, my apologies but here I go again.
I want a firm foundation of facts before we get into rumors. It does me no good to know the rumors of a place without knowing what's true. Further, regardless of when they are starting, they are starting at some point X. Anything that comes after X is up to me, given how they are doing settings now. Anything before X, though, is fair game for them to do with whatever they want. Sure, I can do it but that's the point of buying a world!
Do I want inconsistencies? Yes! In legends and rumors, let there be inconsistencies. But I don't want inconsistencies in my facts.
Are facts boring? In and of themselves, yes. But they can also lead to a lot of good discussions! It's a fact that Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon and so started the civil war. But *why* he did it is a compoletely different matter! Was it to restore the Republic? Because he was personally slighted? That fact has led to some very good debates!
"Of course truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense." Mark Twain
One of the worst things that the a game world can do, imo, is not make sense to the DM. For anything that I, as the DM, have to do, imo, the designers failed. But, I am talking at the base fact level. This is what happened in history. People A say it means this, people B say it means this. But here is the fact.
The best example I can think of for this is Exalted. 2nd edition Exalted is full of facts. And it's awesome to read them and how they make them into rumors and stories or twist them to suit someone else's needs.
So, to get back to my own main point, again, I am going by rumor. The rumor is that they are going back to the main boxed set, which had seven city states with SKs (although they are killing Kalak, but who says he has to remain dead?) and two dead ones. That's the map. That's a fact. To say that there is some city state that was destroyed by Sunscorched Lands IS cool. Don't get me wrong. But, we already know, from the boxed set, about all of the city states with SKs. So, I am hopeful they will have new facts about new city states to help fit this legend into it. That's all I am saying. Otherwise, it's just some random thing thrown out there with no meaning attached to it. A story within a fictional world. It's interesting but not as useful to me in a setting.
btw, FR was ruined by new staff coming in and doing their own thing, not a preponderance of information. It doesn't help when Cloak and Dagger introduces six different things, obviously going in a particular direciton, and the next few books work to contradict four of them! In that case, it was new people making up new facts, which contradicted old facts. There's little we, as consumers, can do when the publisher doesn't stay consistent.
Thanks for the good discussion!
turlough
Ok, you really are in the wrong setting for wanting books to make sense. Dark Sun has a horrid past of game modules and novels that weren't even internally consistent, much less consistent with each other. How many SK's are there? Well, in DS1, there were 7. In DS2, there was the "discovery" of 2, previously unknown, and very bizarre SK's. Oh, let's not forget Valley of Dust and Fire, which reveals that the Dragon was another SK (so we're up to 10 now). That's not including the one in Ravenloft, and the other one wiped out (now up to a total of 12). Then there's Dregoth (City by the Silt Sea), making 13 SK's. Oh, but wait, they were "Champions of Rajaat", and there are 2 other ones unaccounted for as SK's, bringing up the total to 15. But in a book of artifacts, another one is named, and in a novel yet another was named, so now we have 17. So, in a series of supplements and novels, the number jumped from 7 to 17 -- not a small amount (an increase of almost 150% from the original value). So, like I said, so what if there's yet another one in the mix? How would it be any different than all of the other times one was added to the setting?
When it comes to legends and myths, one of the things I liked about the old World of Darkness setting was that there were inconsistencies, and they were intentional. Less like myths and legends, but more like things were explained from different points of view. You might read in several books that the Technocracy was evil (in Mage), and then in a couple books maybe they are good but misunderstood (they have good intentions), and in yet another that they are the saviors of humanity! It all depended on the point of view. I take a similar view with Dark Sun's materials -- that they are written from different points of view. Some of them conflict with each other, and who's to know which one is correct and which one wasn't. It then falls upon me, as a DM, to sort it out and come up with an internal consistency for Dark Sun that works for my campaigns, and it doesn't matter, really, if someone else has a different take on things for their Dark Sun interpretation(s). Maybe in my version I allow for there to be a wide range of SK's out there -- living or dead. Maybe others don't want that. Which is valid? Both views, as are any other views on it. After all, this is a fictional setting, there really is no such thing as "facts" in it.
Ok, you really are in the wrong setting for wanting books to make sense. Dark Sun has a horrid past of game modules and novels that weren't even internally consistent, much less consistent with each other. How many SK's are there? Well, in DS1, there were 7. In DS2, there was the "discovery" of 2, previously unknown, and very bizarre SK's. Oh, let's not forget Valley of Dust and Fire, which reveals that the Dragon was another SK (so we're up to 10 now). That's not including the one in Ravenloft, and the other one wiped out (now up to a total of 12). Then there's Dregoth (City by the Silt Sea), making 13 SK's. Oh, but wait, they were "Champions of Rajaat", and there are 2 other ones unaccounted for as SK's, bringing up the total to 15. But in a book of artifacts, another one is named, and in a novel yet another was named, so now we have 17. So, in a series of supplements and novels, the number jumped from 7 to 17 -- not a small amount (an increase of almost 150% from the original value). So, like I said, so what if there's yet another one in the mix? How would it be any different than all of the other times one was added to the setting?
A note that many people forget: Nok. When the heroes faced Nok, he laughed right in their faces when the subject of the Dragon came up. He pointed out that the world was full of Dragons, each controlling vast space. The Tyr Region belongs to Borys, and when Kalak ascends he will have to either fight Borys for dominance of the region, or leave over the Ringing Mountains to find territory of his own. Nok's very motivation for helping the heroes was this fact. If Kalak ascends, then his forest will be utterly destroyed with immense defiling magic.
Consider how many humanoid races there are, and how few exist in "modern" Athas. Just how many possible Champions could there be? How many might have ascended to full Dragon-hood, and left Borys to control the Tyr Region? Some of the ruined city-states might very well have been destroyed through SUCCESSFUL metamorphasis spells!
@Tec: It was somewhat murky whether Denning refered to the other SKs as dragons, or actual other full-sized dragons elsewhere than in the Tyr Region. Considering the story elements that were created - by denning - years later for the other novels...people have leaned towards only 1 Dragon and many lesser dragons, the SKs.
Well, I just reread the PP to prep for the relaunch, and Nok says, quite specifically, "There are dragons all over the world. Kalak is not yet one of them.", followed shortly by, "One dragon--the one you foolishly call the Dragon, as if it were the only one--already claims Tyr, as it does everything from Urik to Balic. When another appears, one of them will be forced across the Ringing Mountains."
That pretty unmistakably covers the area of all the known city-states, being a diagonal stretch of land that covers the entire Tablelands. They are all claimed as territory or Borys. Later in the story, that meshes with the knowledge learned from Borys and the other sorcerer-monarchs, as Borys wanders all of those lands to collect his levy.
Now, granted, Nok doesn't know everything. However, as with most of Dark Sun, there has been more forgotten than can be known to even quasi-immortals such as the SKs, Rajaat, etc.
Thus, as with Athasian lore in general, there might easily be a ring of truth to what Nok says. It is entirely possible that Borys is the first to ascend, create Rajaat's prison, and so on. It is likewise entirely possible that Borys is the most potent of the dragons by simple virtue of ground floor access to the metamorphasis process, the power accumulated for the levy, the infusion of power from the sun via the Dark Lens, etc. Therefore, I see absolutely no reason why a city akin to Kalidnay might not be indicative of a SK who successfully ascended to full dragonhood status, went on a rampage, and was driven away by Borys.
We know Dregoth came close. We know they "stopped" Dregoth. Who is to say Dregoth is the only one who tried? Others may have tried before, and that's why the SKs absolutely had to stop him. Others may have tried afterwards, knowing better than Dregoth the risks should the other SKs find out. Borys may have been the first to ascend via the Dark Lens. However, Rajaat had many followers. Just as it is entirely possible that it all happened as the previous paragraphs and the PP state, it is likewise entirely possible that perhaps one (or more) of these other apprentices completed the metamorphasis long before Dregoth acquired the knowledge, long before the betrayal of the SKs and use of the Dark Lens, etc.
Remember, take everything that Borys, the other Champions, even Rajaat says with a grain of salt. There is much motivation for those individuals to obfuscate, misdirect, and casually lie as the first reaction to any inquiries in to the very concept of metamorphasis spells, the Cleansing Wars, the imprisonment of Rajaat, the Green Age, the Blue Age, and much, much more. Every word spoken by them in the novels is suspect. If anything, someone like Nok has less inclination to lie about such things, as do pyreen, spirits of the land, elementals, etc, who are trying to restore the world's vitality.
To be blunt, I think Denning was being quite murky on purpose throughout the Prism Pentad.
Then again, the initial stats for Kalak suggests he's a Dragon as well... so like with so many other things in Dark Sun, it is inconsistent and debatable as to what really was going on.
This is touchy subject that IMO can go either way: he was a dragon or a human, but in any case he tried to become a full dragon (i.e. Dragon, with a capital D) in one spell.
If Nok was right and there were other "Boryses" out there beyond the Tyr Region, than it puts out of wack the very mythology Denning created: Borys and the other SKs were a handful of Champions serving Rajaat, and Rajaat created magic, and the SKs created the Dragon, and they did that for a specific purprose. What are those other Dragons out there, if they exist? Wouldn't the Dragon and the SKs have killed them? Its possible, yet unlikely and deconstructs the mythology.
You choose.
Xlorep puts his finger on it. Denning keeps suggesting that Kalak is an old man, and that all the other SKs are luminescent humanoids of godlike proportions and beauty (an illusion), and many of them are seen defiling people, while Kalak is never seen defiling people until he's changing into a dragon as part of the transformation ritual. In the novel it does look like Kalak was not a dragon, and attempted to pass from 20/20 wizard/psion human to 30 dragon in one spell. Some supplements, like City-State of Tyr, even describe Kalak as a 25/25 human.
This is touchy subject that IMO can go either way: he was a dragon or a human, but in any case he tried to become a full dragon (i.e. Dragon, with a capital D) in one spell.
If Nok was right and there were other "Boryses" out there beyond the Tyr Region, than it puts out of wack the very mythology Denning created: Borys and the other SKs were a handful of Champions serving Rajaat, and Rajaat created magic, and the SKs created the Dragon, and they did that for a specific purprose. What are those other Dragons out there, if they exist? Wouldn't the Dragon and the SKs have killed them? Its possible, yet unlikely and deconstructs the mythology.
You choose.
I think that presents a false dichotomy. We are talking about thousands of years of the Champions ruling city-states. Perhaps many thousands of years beyond what the Champions let on. Again, we also do not know the true number of Champions, only what has been passed down through the centuries from a Tablelands-centric perspective (a very small area; even if increased by an order of magnitude, it is still a small portion of a standard world). There would have been a Champion for every single non-human, non-halfling, sentient and "civilized" race on the planet. In a standard fantasy world, which the Green Age is certainly supposed to be much closer to than modern Athas, that is a heck of a lot more than 15 (or 17) Champions.
I do not think that it undermines the very mythology Denning created in any way, shape or form. Rather, it expands upon it. The sheer number of unknown variables alone can easily accomodate Dragons staking out territory throughout the world. Dragons who, most likely, didn't have an instant acceleration via the Dark Lens, but rather metamorphasized the hard way. The long way. A way that it is hinted existed possibly quite a long while before Dregoth and the other betrayers acquired it.
The Champions who engaged in treaty with Borys to imprison Rajaat actually have a distinct motivation to stay in the Tablelands and rule over their city-states: the levy. If they wander too far, or attempt to purposefully flee Borys' domain to consolidate their own power base elsewhere, they specifically risk freeing what is perhaps the greatest threat on the planet. Certainly, Rajaat is the greatest threat to the betrayers themselves. Which. incidentally, presents an interesting question: Will all the Tyr Region monarchs stich around after the events in the Prism Pentad?
Moreover, the betrayers' need to stick together means there is an awful lot of space in the world beyond the Tablelands for those Champions who didn't betray Rajaat (along with any potent defilers who are also master of the Way) to retreat to with relative safety. There's the entire Sea of Silt and what lies beyond. There is highly likely to be lands beyond the Kreen Empire with entirely different populations. There is more to the north we don't know about. Now, there isn't likely to be anything south of the Dead Lands from what we have been told, but even that's not a guarantee. It is quite likely there are entire oceans of silt dividing other continents. Silt, unlike water, isolates such continents quite dramatically.
There is a heck of a lot left wide open. Again, I firmly believe this to be a conscious choice with regards to Dark Sun. The Wanderer's Journal and Chronicle are both full of glimmers of truth, and completely incorrect statements presented as fact. I think this, too, is by design, and specifically meant to indicate the sad state of information on Athas (in addition to presenting story hooks and basic knowledge for your average citizen of the Tyr Region to know).
Thus, I do not, in fact, believe there must be a choice between the two options you present above.
I'd draw it at that, otherwise there could have been 100 Champions, and only a few were tasked to sticking around Rajaat's prison so they could provide a levy. Sure, anything's possible. It's just not canon. The old canon. The new one probably won't even mention any of this. Call me old fashioned but I'll stick to most of the canon thank you.
You can change canon if you like. Otherwise, all the Champions betrayed Rajaat but two, the traitors Sacha and Wyan, beheaded by their fellows for their misplaced loyalty.
I'd draw it at that, otherwise there could have been 100 Champions, and only a few were tasked to sticking around Rajaat's prison so they could provide a levy. Sure, anything's possible. It's just not canon. The old canon. The new one probably won't even mention any of this. Call me old fashioned but I'll stick to most of the canon thank you.
Which old canon? The one where Kalak was a Champion, and quite remembered Rajaat (as his spirit in the Grey stated) or wasn't and came later, a pretender? The one where there were 17 champions, or only 7, or 9, or...? The one where Hamanu was secretly the human slayer and/or Champion slayer in addition to the Troll Scorcher, or...?
That's specifically why I mentioned the inconsistencies and not only tendancy but motivation to actively lie to everyone else on the part of the betrayers, of Sacha and Wyan (sorry, can't believe one word they say), of Rajaat, even on the part of Hamanu in his telling of his personal history, and so on.
Dark Sun's canon is all over the place, and full of internal inconsistencies at virtually every turn, such that it seems to me that history is purposefully revised over and over by the victors...in this case the Champions. When others from beyond the Tablelands...in the SAME source material by the SAME author as other, conflicting information...have quite a different recollection or understanding of the history of the Tablelands and the world beyond, that makes coherent sense in a world where the Champions, et al, are LYING.
I also did actually mention how there could be other full-blooded dragons: The "old fashioned" way. Much like Farcluun, the 22nd level dragon (higher than any of the Champions save Borys and Nibenay, and equal to Tectuktitlay) from the module Black Flames. Someone with the resources Farcluun possesses could travel far beyond the Tyr Region, find life unfamiliar with a dragon, and use it to empower his metamorphasis to its ultimate end secretly and distantly. Even if he went mad, he'd do so far from the Tablelands.
The history of Athas is so mangled, that it seems to be a concerted effort on the part of the writers of the setting, and in turn the characters within the setting. I simply do not take any of the extremely inconsistent history as being absolutely accurate. Rather, each piece of the history is the perspective of a specific individual or individuals who VERY often have the means and motivation to completely and utterly lie to get what they want.
Considering that, when I read Black Flames and Dragon Kings I thought a PC/NPC could become a dragon but never be powerful enough to resist the onslaught of a Champion, what with all the extra goodies they seemed to have. Sure, those two sources do not mention this, and even offer a battle between Abalach-Re and Farclunn that was particularly silly; the millennia-old bitch queen barely winning against a less-than-a-hundred-years-old upstart. Sure, this is D&D, full of such silliness. Draw your own conclusions.
This conversation between you and me is the same that have been had between me and others for the past 9 years. I'll stop now.
Fun aside, its re-ashing I'm not even finding pleasure in anymore. Hence the stopping.
Vagueness can be cool, depending on how it's handled and I trust the designers to handle it well.
Now to sit and wait until we get the previews and the books. *sigh* It's going to be a long July.
turlough
...I'll stop now. Now. No, now.
Fun aside, its re-ashing I'm not even finding pleasure in anymore. Hence the stopping.
Fair enough. I was simply geniunely curious which canon you thought was more canon than the rest of the (conflicting) canon. However, I do not wish to push any buttons, as I tend to enjoy your posts. So I too will stop now. No really, I'll stop. I'm stopping...right...now. ;)
