I have my opinions but am hoping to read others before stating my own.
Thanks!
turlough
On the other hand, it served its purpose, which was to quickly and effectively introduce a number of concepts that make Dark Sun an interesting, unique setting.
Overall I enjoyed it.
I didn't like any of the antagonists. They all felt cartoony, stupid and one-dimensional. Andropinis is anything but imposing. The Templar was cranky and immature. The Halfling was "lord of flies" childish. The Thri-Kreen was nerdy.
On the flip side, the main characters were good. I liked their attitudes towards life, despite both having the same background (just about). I liked the Giants, and the concept of the soul-stealer. I liked the beast-headed giant picture.
a templar gardener
The only way that would be cool is if the templar's garden is tended for the sole purpose of being a nice source of defiler-fuel. On Athas that would almost be as sick as raising someone destined to be a human sacrifice.
I don't like KJA's writing. Ever since his X-Files and Jedi Academy trilogy, I have found him to be a writer that I don't enjoy. It's like he reads a summary and then bases things on that as he doesn't have things quite right.
Having said that, I wanted definite things I could point at for reason I didn't like this story so here they are.
While I liked Balic being Rome, which is how I envisioned Balic since the first boxed set, I didn't like the slave master or the fights KJA described. It reminded me too much of Gladiator. "Are you not entertained?" And how did a former office holder get to be such a good gladiator in such a short time?
I did like the giants and their attack. I liked letting the gladiators out to defend the town and some of them kill their master and leave.
I didn't like how accessible the Green Age was especially not with defiling magic. This is what I mean by him not getting things exactly right for me. (Although that tells us maybe what they are using for history and he read it prior to writing this? It also helps my own arguments about finding out about history is easy in another thread.)
I think the ending should have been bittersweet, a pyhrric victory because defiling has only ever caused the downfall of the world, not the saving of it. So, for me, the ending should have been that the only way to escape was to use the navigation crystal in such a way that it broke and destroyed her (their) only source of happiness. They won but at what price? Not only in what they lost directly but what about the price to her soul?
I thought the preserver was defiling way too much and it was way too easy for her to decide to do so. Again, though, it seems as if it's a lack of understanding on KJA's part. He seemed to make defiling like a drug addiction and while there are probably elements of that to it, if she was defiling that often in her home, it should have made finding more food very difficult for her. The choice of whether or not to defile is life or death, literally. I can excuse it if she had defiled to stay alive, as Sadira did in the Amber Enchantress. When Sadira defiled near a tree of life in Nibenay, and everyone betrayed her, you could see the turning point for her and her starting to get that defiling isn't worth the cost. In this story, again, it's a drug addiction because she defiles apparently as soon as she can to go back to it. I don't see defiling as working like that.
Finally, I did not understand how, nearly drained of life and being knocked out for a day after using the crystal before, she is able to cast it again so quickly AND make it permanent! What? What happened to consistency within a story? And how did they arrive back there feeling great as well? That made no sense to me.
I did like the story ideas except the ending but not the execution of them, which is typical for me and the books of KJA that I have read.
turlough
The worst DS story, no contest, was Blood and Ashes (IIRC), which had a templar gardener and a thief working for the VA. Bad, bad story. It actually integrated 2e rule concepts in the story, a mistake never to make, since editions change.
Where is that? It sounds familiar but I can't find it. A short story in a game product?
Thanks!
turlough
And yes, it was Kalak's royal gardens of regular and tree of life variety. Super lame. You'll see if you ever read it.
Finally, I did not understand how, nearly drained of life and being knocked out for a day after using the crystal before, she is able to cast it again so quickly AND make it permanent! What? What happened to consistency within a story? And how did they arrive back there feeling great as well? That made no sense to me.
I did like the story ideas except the ending but not the execution of them, which is typical for me and the books of KJA that I have read.
turlough
She did have several days to rest in between castings. After they escaped the halflings they rested on the ruined boat for a few days before the Templar showed up.
I did rather like the Thri-keen character. He was such a magnificent ass. I do agree that the Templar felt under-developed, and that the last two thirds were rushed. There was a huge issue with pacing after the Gladiators rebelled. Things felt like they happen one after the other, when it took days in the narrative. That time should be felt. It probably would have made things make more sense intuitively.
I also wasn't fond of the ending. Let preface this comment first: I like happy endings. I like the good guys to get ahead and the bad guys to get their just dues. In fact, I find the whole obessive drive of modern literature to sell amoral sociopathy, nihilism and misery as "realistic" to be downright disgusting.
What I don't like are ass-pulls. Endings that come out of nowhere because the author said so. I would have perferred the ending to be bittersweet as well, with the pair appearing on the deck of the ship just as they bleed out. They get to spend the rest of their lives in the idyllic past, as short as it is. It fits the tone of Dark Sun perfectly. Heck I would have taken them dying on the ship only to wake up a week later after the ship's cleric treated them. That at least would have made narrative sense. What doesn't make sense is some sort of altruistic mumbo jumbo. "Oh I defiled myself from existence, so all my wishes came true."
Seriously, what?
All in all it was an o.k. read. It had a great premise and the first bit was well written. It just kind of peters out at about the half-way point though. Which is a real shame.
"Oh I defiled myself from existence, so all my wishes came true."
It's entirely possible to read the ending as being merely the heroine hallucinating as she bleeds to death. I'm not saying that's a better interpretation, but it arguably makes more sense. And it might even have been the author's intent to suggest as much (the obvious 'heavenly' imagery of Green Athas and the idea of the heroine 'going home forever').
If I'd been writing it, I'd have had the (only mostly dead) thri-kreen philosopher staring down at the bodies of the protagonists at the end (still very much in 'present day' Athas) and wondering why they both looked so damn happy. But then, I'm a miserable bugger. ;)
I also liked the thri kreen and his attitude. It worked for me.
Again, there are good ideas in it but not the execution. Easy for me to say as a critic.
Duskweaver: See, to me, that's still too happy for a Dark Sun ending because it leaves them happy, which sticks in the mind. I would have instead had them twist in pain and horror and then the thri kreen announces, "okay, they have crossed over the grey. You can always tell when they arrive . . . " or something like that.
Again, I like happy endings but not for Dark Sun or pyrrhic at best.
Thanks to all who replied!
turlough
That's the thing, it's only the most ephemerally happy an ending. I do agree the emphasis should have been different, and the pacing was all off.
However, remember that to survive to get back to the past, the female protaganist had to utterly destroy a very large area of plant life, right down to the microbes in the dust and earth (which also turned black and ashen) in an area where that life is clinging on tenuously at best. Thus, while going back to the past, she also made the future that much worse. Seems rather pyrrhic to me. The world itself would have been better off had the two of them spilt their blood in death to feed the hunger of the flora and fauna of the area. Instead, they took their precious lifeblood to the past, before the devastation of the Cleansing Wars destroyed the environment
She also had to irrevocably destroy the magical crystal, meaning it was a one way, one time trip.
Finally, and this is the big part, they know how the future plays out. There is little to nothing they can do to stop it. So, while they get to live in the much more pleasant past...they still know, and will always know unlike the natives to that time around them, that the world they live in isn't going to be around much longer. The Wars are coming, and they will decimate the world. The minotaur captain of the ship? Him and all of his species are likely to be extinct not too long from now, relatively speaking. Every time they see one of the cleansed races, that painful truth will resonate in them. This pair might end up happy, but they just as well might end up depressed, grim, and feeling helpless with regards to the future.
The ending of this story is not all it is cracked up to be, and it is just the beginning of another story. Possibly one that is bloodier, nastier, more devastating than their previous life. They might very well get to watch the end of the world begin. I would love to see a sequel to this story, where their comparatively idyllic paradise turns in to a horrific nightmare as Rajaat's wars kicks off, and they get to watch the world around them defiled, blasted in to wastelands, everyone around them that they've grown attached to murdered in cold, cruel, genocidal blood.
Tec: I am not sure I buy your reasoning. From the eye in the sky perspective, looking down on the events, sure things were bad. As you said, she defiled a lot and that should have repurcussions. However, defiling doesn't really have any consequences. Sure, there are some game effects to it but there are no real role playing effects.
Further, from the two characters perspective, things have worked out well. Sure, they could be mopey that the world is going to get worse but for them, where they are, it's not a bad place at all. Unless they were taken to a point in time when the wars are going to happen in their lifetime, from their perspective, they found a paradise and get to live in it!
Sure, a follow up story could make it worse but all we saw was the characters defiled and ended up the better for it. As it stands, to me, this story just didn't have the Dark Sun feel to it.
Thanks!
turlough
As to how much time had passed, on page 86 in the middle row and the second from the bottom paragraph:
"In the evenings he would sit with her, and gradually opened up, talking more and more."
This suggests that more than one night passed since their escape.
Tec: I am not sure I buy your reasoning. From the eye in the sky perspective, looking down on the events, sure things were bad. As you said, she defiled a lot and that should have repurcussions. However, defiling doesn't really have any consequences. Sure, there are some game effects to it but there are no real role playing effects.
??? Of course defiling has roleplaying effects. It has far more RP effects than mechanical effects. Defiling robs the earth of its ability to provide a rich soil for plants to grow in. Defiled land is often described as being ruined for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years. That defiling leaves a dead zone (think ocean dead zones) in the land. Even if everything goes lush for some reason, that defiled land will still be barren. That is a tangible, troublesome, long-term effect on the world making it a worse place for life to thrive in.
Further, from the two characters perspective, things have worked out well. Sure, they could be mopey that the world is going to get worse but for them, where they are, it's not a bad place at all. Unless they were taken to a point in time when the wars are going to happen in their lifetime, from their perspective, they found a paradise and get to live in it!
Yes, they have worked out better. For now. Yes, they found paradise, potentially. "Mopey" wasn't what I had in mind. This is more on par with a scenario where you go back in time to pre-WWII Germany, just before the rise of Hitler, having lived in a world where those tragic, horrific events are long over with and profoundly altered the world. You know that a huge number of the Jews, gays, atheists, Romani, etc, all around you, along with many of the Germans, French, Russians, and many more who will become soldiers in their respective armies, or civilians who are just another piece of collateral damage, are going to be killed. And there is nothing you can do to stop it. Worse still, you went back in time by killing a bunch of people and/or radically destroying a chunk of the environment for centuries beyond the time you left.
I think the reactions people have when thrust in to such a scenario is quite different than you may believe. Even if you end up in a beautiful country village with all that you need and more, gorgeous landscapes all around, et al. You will know the horrible truth. I don't think it will be paradise to nearly the degree you assume for a great many people.
??? Of course defiling has roleplaying effects. It has far more RP effects than mechanical effects. Defiling robs the earth of its ability to provide a rich soil for plants to grow in. Defiled land is often described as being ruined for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years. That defiling leaves a dead zone (think ocean dead zones) in the land. Even if everything goes lush for some reason, that defiled land will still be barren. That is a tangible, troublesome, long-term effect on the world making it a worse place for life to thrive in.
Yes, but what does that mean to a player character? The idea behind defiling is that the land has no more life energy and so can't grow anything? Or something like that? But, there was nothing in 2E to say what that means. Does it create a food shortage? How much? Does it raise prices for everyone? Does it stain the soul? Can people tell a defiler by sight or smell or sound? (I would say no to that or that would show a difference between preserving and defiling.)
And even then, it's doubtful the PCs are going to see any real affects from this. Food prices go up? Okay! Food is cheap compared to magic items and armor so the PCs never notice if they are paying 2 cp for a broy instead of 2 bits. They have too much money, usually, such that it won't matter to them.
My point is that defiling is bad because it's defined as bad. There was nothing in 2E game terms that actually made it bad. I'm not arguing there are long term bad effects from defiling. I'm saying that it needed game mechanics to back up why defiling is a bad thing.
Now, the few official 4E rules that we have say that it takes a healing surge from all allies, and certainly that is a cost. But it's optional. And, in terms of role playing, what I saw in my own campaigns was once a player had a character move past defiling, they never defiled again, no matter how much it might help. So, I'm not denying that it's a cool effect but not sure it's a real consequence. Further, only in DND Encounters chapter one have I seen characters run low on surges. I don't think I have had more than four combats in a close time period and even then they weren't too pushed for surges. But that's me and my group which doesn't apply to everyone.
I guess what I am saying is that there is a story reason for defiling and how the world got to where it is but I have yet to see that translated into some good game mechanics that truly effect the PCs in such a way as to say, and show, defiling is bad. Again, maybe if the PCs had to feed their servants and food prices tripled but even then it might be a long enough time away from the defiling that they might not see the connection.
I don't want an economy simulator. I think it would be too much work with too little pay out. I guess I am sorry that DND 4E, as a system, doesn't have a game mechanic way to make defiling bad that really shows how it's bad. Maybe the designer will impress me, though. I hope so!
Further, from the two characters perspective, things have worked out well. Sure, they could be mopey that the world is going to get worse but for them, where they are, it's not a bad place at all. Unless they were taken to a point in time when the wars are going to happen in their lifetime, from their perspective, they found a paradise and get to live in it!
Yes, they have worked out better. For now. Yes, they found paradise, potentially. "Mopey" wasn't what I had in mind. This is more on par with a scenario where you go back in time to pre-WWII Germany, just before the rise of Hitler, having lived in a world where those tragic, horrific events are long over with and profoundly altered the world. You know that a huge number of the Jews, gays, atheists, Romani, etc, all around you, along with many of the Germans, French, Russians, and many more who will become soldiers in their respective armies, or civilians who are just another piece of collateral damage, are going to be killed. And there is nothing you can do to stop it. Worse still, you went back in time by killing a bunch of people and/or radically destroying a chunk of the environment for centuries beyond the time you left.
I think the reactions people have when thrust in to such a scenario is quite different than you may believe. Even if you end up in a beautiful country village with all that you need and more, gorgeous landscapes all around, et al. You will know the horrible truth. I don't think it will be paradise to nearly the degree you assume for a great many people.
And these are good points but no, not enough for me personally. Maybe if I was a Jew or Russian transported back to prior to WWII, it might mean more, especially if it was 1938. If not, and even if it was 1938, it would be easy to go someplace not affected by the war. It's cowardly, don't get me wrong, but if that's what I wanted to do, I could. In the case of this story, I don't get the sense that they know the particular details of the ship and its captain and what happen to them. If hints of those had been in there, (the equivalent of it being 1939 and you just landed in Poland) it would have been a much better an ending, imo. As it was written, it was too easy to see a happy ending, which I don't think fits Dark Sun.
Again, I am prejuidiced against KJA as I don't like his writing and while that might be partially self fulfilling, there are parts of it that I think are objectively bad in terms of a story for and about Dark Sun.
Thanks!
turlough