My approach will be to basically ignore whats in the new setting book in favor of the older Wanderer's Journal stuff where appropriate. Or to let the players (most of mine are unfamiliar with the setting) assume what they want based on the new setting book (even encourage this early on in game) and use that as an opportunity for a Big RevealTM later on.
Borys doesn't become the Dragon in a struggle to keep Rajaat imprisoned; after he and the other SKs settle in the city states, he persuades them to help him become the first Dragon to better serve as a "guardian". The text is loose enough to allow anyone who wants to stick to the 2nd edition revised fluff, but it also opens the door for a situation where Borys' rise to power is due to his own machinations.
Ruins
This word you are using. I do not think it means what you think it means.
It's nice to see the Athasian "points of interest" being spread out a little bit, instead of "better trot out the good ol' Pristine Tower again..."
Ruins
This word you are using. I do not think it means what you think it means.
v. ru·ined, ru·in·ing, ru·ins
v. ru·ined, ru·in·ing, ru·ins
In 2nd, did we know where Ebe was? Was it also the name for pre-Ur Draxa city?
I don't know about 2e, but this seems to be the tack that 4e has taken:
Borys demanded the aid of the others, and got it, to advance through the whole proccess to become what we now know as the Dragon of Tyr. This killed Ebe, to be remade by him later as Ur-Draxa, now full of liches, slaves and undead templars.
Now I have a chance to use it.
I can't see it matters how Borys became the dragon (although I intend to slant it towards keeping Rajaat imprisoned).
But the fact he goes bonkers and this leads the SK to not want another Dragon (and so they off Dregoth and Kalak tries to short cut the rampage phase) is pretty important story wise.
IMHO I reckon there should be some heights the PCs simply can't reach because of the unique situation that created the (for example) Dragon (but I appreciate YMMV).
The dark lens is detailed in 2e revised darksun, psionic artifacts of athas. It's basically a battery and power amp, but it's primary function is to be a plot device. ASAIK, you cannot go from level 21-30 using the lens. It's never been done. The lens isn't required to become a dragon. Although, sorcerer kings were never just "dragons". They were also champions, making them unique.
The dark lens was required to establish a link from a champion to a vortice (or w/e it's called) in order for the champion to provide their templar with elemental spellcasting abilities.
Yes, thank you for... uh... clarifying that for him.
You are most welcome, however, the definition was for your benefit not his.
Personally, I think the designers need to calm down with the undead infested areas. If Bodach isn't enough you have the whole Deadlands. Making Ur Draxa an undead realm is just tired in my opinion.
This also applies to what they did to the deadlands in 4e. I love the original 2e deadlands document and I plan to draw from that when desiging my deadlands region.
Didn't the Champions use the Dark Lens in Rise and Fall of a Sorcerer King to transform Borys intothe DRagon right after Rajaat's imprisonnement?
Yes, and it nearly killed all the nearby champions and did kill one while consuming the bodies of two others.
I would go with the PCs not being able to become Dragon Class Entities.
IMHO I reckon there should be some heights the PCs simply can't reach because of the unique situation that created the (for example) Dragon (but I appreciate YMMV).
Well, even in 2e, it was not possible for pcs to become what borys was. The dragon of tyr was not just a dragon, he was also a champion. A pc can become a dragon, but cannot become a champion. (unless the dm specifically works that in somehow)
Personally, I like the crazyness about the sorcerer-kings being gone. I'd love it if a player made a Psion-Wizard hybrid or multiclass and tried to become a sorcerer-king themselves. That would be a fun (and very long and challenging) game.
Are their a lot of altenatives to undead ruins in Athas? Lifeshaper ruins. Psionic ruins.
What else?
There's a rather interesting discussion in another thread about the possible outlook of the new Ur Draxa. Some sort of lush, wild garden tended by undead guardians, frozen in silence in the middle of the apocalyptic scenario of the Valley of Dust and Fire. Works very well for me.
Consider this: if making Ur Draxa a third undead ruin is repetitive, how would you define making it the umpteen copy of Tyr? The actual description of Ur Draxa in 2nd edition sucked a lot of oomph from it. It was like everything else, just bigger.
Personally, I'm sticking with the old school version with some minor changes. I'm a fan of the original.
The location of his transformation only matters in those epic-level games in 3.5e wherein aspiring Dragon PCs need to know all the locations and components they need for a similar transformation. If the Tower wasn't necessary, maybe the Dark Lens isn't, either. I wish they would flesh these things out more, for those of us who run epic-level games and run into these quandaries!
It was during 2nd, DS never existed during 3.5 (except a few articles in Dragon/Dungeon mags R.I.P.).
The Dark Lens was never necessary to become a Dragon. It was only theorized that it was used to 1) Make any communer into a first stage Dragon (level 21/21 Defiler/Psion) and 2) to accelerate that transformation, making that first stage Dragon into a last stage Dragon (level 30/30) in one shot.
The normal Dragon Metamorphesis spell could take millenias to complete.
I ran 3.5 games based on Athas.org and homebrew material aafter 2E.
It was during 2nd, DS never existed during 3.5 (except a few articles in Dragon/Dungeon mags R.I.P.).
Athas.org releases were official 3.5 products. They are still available and (most importantly) free products. For people who want more content, more fluff, without having to track down books on ebay or pay for pdf files from somewhere, these items can be downloaded and contain useful information for you. While the rules system is not the same as 4e, the fluff can be used if you'd like it, and it even expands into places that are not covered within the 4e world for those who want to go off the map.
The dark lens is detailed in 2e revised darksun, psionic artifacts of athas. It's basically a battery and power amp, but it's primary function is to be a plot device.
Randomly: did you notice the level 5 Solitaire (Quartz Lens) in the equipment chapter? I'm wondering if this is leading into something...
You are most welcome, however, the definition was for your benefit not his.
Appreciated, but the misunderstanding was clearly his. He described something as ruined that was not ruined, as per the definition you posted.
I agree with you completely, Pavek. I don't like the fact that they tried to/did turn ur draxa into yet another undead ruin. Not an idea I will be using as-is. I always liked the 2e version of ur draxa, so I plan on merging the two, taking the ideas I like the most from both.
Yeah, I could definitely incorporate more undead into Ur Draxa but not on a colossal scale.
I actually dislike the Deadlands 2e document. I enjoy the fan version of the Deadlands much better and will meld the better ideas of both as well.
Appreciated, but the misunderstanding was clearly his. He described something as ruined that was not ruined, as per the definition you posted.
I must be reading a different post or something. Terminus feels previously established canon was ruined (when using VoDaF and not the hack fest PP series of books). The word is used correctly, per the definition. You may not agree with the sentiment but that has no bearing on word usage. Inigo Montoya would be ashamed.
On a side note, am I the only one who would rather stab my eyes out with a hot soldering iron than read a paragraph written by Troy Denning. That guy needs to take some writing classes ASAP.
Terminus feels previously established canon was ruined (when using VoDaF and not the hack fest PP series of books). The word is used correctly, per the definition.
No, it is most definitely not. You cannot use any of the quoted definitions as a replacement for "ruin" in the sentence and have a truthful statement.
None of the following are accurate:
- The removal of the Pristine Tower from the birth of the Dragon completely destroys or demolishes so much established canon.
- The removal of the Pristine Tower from the birth of the Dragon irreparably harms so much established canon.
- The removal of the Pristine Tower from the birth of the Dragon reduces so much established canon to poverty or bankruptcy.
- The removal of the Pristine Tower from the birth of the Dragon deprives so much established canon of chastity.
It possible that he was simply woefully misrepresenting what occurred, but it's so off-base, the most logical conclusion is that he didn't know what the word meant.
Although, you were correct in pointing out that one's sentiment has no bearing on word usage, though, so good call there.
The removal of the Pristine Tower from the birth of the Dragon deprives so much established canon of chastity.
Yeah, what is the Solitaire (Quartz Lens) anyway? It lacks info on what category of item it is, what it looks like. Are there others like it, from Adventurer's Vault 1-2 perhaps?
Yeah, "Solitaire" is indeed a specific type of Wonderous Item. Think you just need to keep it on your person for it to work.
edit: Sorry, it is from AV1 I think.
The dark lens is detailed in 2e revised darksun, psionic artifacts of athas. It's basically a battery and power amp, but it's primary function is to be a plot device.
Randomly: did you notice the level 5 Solitaire (Quartz Lens) in the equipment chapter? I'm wondering if this is leading into something...
What do you think it might be leading to? Solitaire gemstones/crystals are neat but I'm not sure I'm seeing any connection unless you suspect the crystal steeple is infact made up of different solitaires. I
IMO, the dark lens as a solitaire would be possible. It would be one big ass solitaire unless you can shrink it in 4e. An artifact wondrous item could work. My current design of the dark lens has it as an orb implement that can be shrunk, but I do like the idea of a wondrous item, since anyone can use it instead of just a few classes. Gonna have to give it some thought.
Terminus feels previously established canon was ruined (when using VoDaF and not the hack fest PP series of books). The word is used correctly, per the definition.
No, it is most definitely not. You cannot use any of the quoted definitions as a replacement for "ruin" in the sentence and have a truthful statement.
What are you doing applying tests of truth or logic to someone's opinion? Someone can't express an opinion on a matter and use the word "ruin" doing it? Seriously?
Oh, wait. This is the internet here?
Never mind.
Terminus feels previously established canon was ruined (when using VoDaF and not the hack fest PP series of books). The word is used correctly, per the definition.
No, it is most definitely not. You cannot use any of the quoted definitions as a replacement for "ruin" in the sentence and have a truthful statement.
None of the following are accurate:
- The removal of the Pristine Tower from the birth of the Dragon completely destroys or demolishes so much established canon.
- The removal of the Pristine Tower from the birth of the Dragon irreparably harms so much established canon.
- The removal of the Pristine Tower from the birth of the Dragon reduces so much established canon to poverty or bankruptcy.
- The removal of the Pristine Tower from the birth of the Dragon deprives so much established canon of chastity.
It possible that he was simply woefully misrepresenting what occurred, but it's so off-base, the most logical conclusion is that he didn't know what the word meant.
Although, you were correct in pointing out that one's sentiment has no bearing on word usage, though, so good call there.
Dude, it was my opinion and I feel I used the correct word. This is a discussion forum, not English class. I stand by my choice of words. Wait a minute, YOU are the same guy who said I didn't even buy the book!
Your initial post was so reactionary and woefully inaccurate, I was (and still am) fairly convinced that you did not actually purchase or read the book, despite your assertion to the contrary.
It's very rude and a sign of poor character to accuse a complete stranger of falsehood in a public forum. Do you need photos of the supplements as well, or is your self-righteousness satisfied by the one photo?
Don't forget that a lot of the info in original dark sun was in-universe sourced and therefore somewhat unreliable. No reason that might not still be the case. It could hold true that The Dragon was still "created" at the Pristine Tower, and the very first thing he did was return to Ebe and raze it to the ground in his dragon rage. That would make sense, in a lot of ways. I don't like that he's now CE, though. That would make sense for his rampaging rage days, but now he's pretty much the lynchpin of an enormous prison scheme involving thousands of participants (willing and unwilling, knowing and unknowing) whose sole purpose is to keep Rajaat locked away.
CE makes more sense as an alignement if you assume Borys' existance is solely devoted to keep Rajaat away. He's not stupid or mindless by any stretch of imagination, but so much of his time and the resources he gaters are devoted to sealing Rajaat's prison that, combined with the maddening pain and such, he doesn't really have much time for scheming and plotting.
Or you could think he's not using the slaves to keep Rajaat's prison locked, or maybe that he sacrifices and resurrects them and is plotting something (maybe he wants to gather an army strong enough to move to the regions outside the Tablelands?) and so on.
As much as one dislikes the idea of an undead city, it does make a lot more sense than the 2nd edition version.
Having the biggest town of Athas in the middle of the VoDaF is logically problematic. You need fields to feed people. You need WATER (in the middle of an inferno of fiery hell?) in abundance. You need a social system that supports the biggest metropolis in the world that has NO communication with the outside whatsoever. A town made of epic level citizens that never leave it? Considering how little time the Dragon would spend schooling his citizens, you would have the least culturally advanced city in the world. What the 2nd edition Ur Draxa fundamentally was is a Truman Show... where everyone is Truman. It sort of works on paper but once you look at it, being sealed in an utopian town in the middle of hell with a friggin superbeing defiling your arse off, growing crops next to lava pools, would be a maddening experience.
When I changed the lore in 2nd edition I did so because I was discussing with some of my players (who would buy the book themselves, as they were DMs in other games) and we agreed that Ur Draxa felt incredibly artificial that way. Having it run by the undead made more sense in terms of susteinability and also helped pushing the idea of how powerful the Dragon could become. If he's resurrecting the slaves he gets every year, he could have an immense army at his disposal.
What we did do was adapting much of what was written for Ur Draxa to New Giustenal.
Now THAT would make sense as some sort of utopia. It's absurd that Dregoth, obsessed with the creation of life, would have a catacomb city; it also diminishes the impact of him being undead. New Giustenal is also underground - the perfect environment for a "paradise city". Moist, protected for the sun, and so on.
Having the biggest town of Athas in the middle of the VoDaF is logically problematic.
Not really, if you read the valley and dust and fire.
You need fields to feed people.You need WATER (in the middle of an inferno of fiery hell?) in abundance.
Thanks to the psionically empowered great walls of Ur Draxa, the deadly heat doesn't affect the city's resources. The massive city has forests, lakes, andfields. I guess it could be hard for some folks to understandhow lakes could exist in the harshest, most barren wasteland of the known world, but when you toss psionics in the mix, and incredibly powerful psionics at that, things become a lot easier to grasp. This is D&D after all and not a reflection of real life. (If a city of undead beings can make sense, then a city protected by psionic power also makes sense)
It is also worth noting, that Vodaf states "the great ash storm and the ring of fire are not natural phenomena, but defenses of an awesome scale."It's very safe to assume that nearly every aspect of the valley of dust and fire was "created" to help safeguard rajaat's prison. Further evidence of the unbelievable power of the SKs, the dragon and epic level power.
You need a social system that supports the biggest metropolis in the world that has NO communication with the outside whatsoever.
Which it does and I wouldn't say the city has no outside communication at all. Remember, psionics and magic are used and the dragon will pass information when necessary.
A town made of epic level citizens that never leave it?
Really, you shouldn't exaggerate so much. Newer fans of the setting might think you're serious.
Considering how little time the Dragon would spend schooling his citizens, you would have the least culturally advanced city in the world.
Seriously, this cracks me up. Picturing the dragon, or any sorcerer king, teaching a class is comical. They have subordinates that do that, as it is completely beneith the station of a ruler. Ur Draxa has the hall of learning, for both mundane and magical/psionic learning. Have you even read the valley of dust and fire?
It sort of works on paper but once you look at it, being sealed in an utopian town in the middle of hell with a friggin superbeing defiling your arse off, growing crops next to lava pools, would be a maddening experience.
1. the organic life in the city would allow the dragon and every defiler in the city to go nuts for a long time with spellcasting, unless the dragon cast the super mega ultimate world ending spell that it has never used. The practice and use of magic within the city is probably very controlled and completely banned in certain parts of the city.
2. No one grows crops next to lava pools. More exaggeration. The walls of the city are psionically enchanted to stay just above freezing and the heat from the ring of fire does not affect the city.
and we agreed that Ur Draxa felt incredibly artificial that way.
It's suppose to. It's not suppose to feel natural in any way. It's a construct, the entire region was built for a single purpose, to keep rajaat in prison. It's suppose to feel completely epic, starting with the region itself, moving on to the insane walls that are 700 feet high and a quater of a mile thick. This is the end all, be all of bad ass locations that the players could go to. It's the ultimate fortress/prison.
If he's resurrecting the slaves he gets every year, he could have an immense army at his disposal.
Any slave used to power the binding rituals of rajaat's prison were obliterated and reduced to ash. Simply not possible to resurrect the spirit in the same body. The most that could happen would be spirts, wraiths and ghosts. That's assuming he didn't consume the spirit as well.
It's absurd that Dregoth, obsessed with the creation of life, would have a catacomb city; it also diminishes the impact of him being undead. New Giustenalis also underground - the perfect environment for a "paradise city". Moist, protected for the sun, and so on.
Nothing absurd about it in the least. Dregoth had no choice. If the SKs discovered his return as an undead dragon at the time, they would have united and destroyed him. Making sure he couldn't return. So what was he suppose to do? Of all the city-states, Giustenal was the most complete destruction we know about. The sorcerer kings sunk half the city and scorched the other half and obliterated nearly all life in the city.
Never mind.
Damn, Eric, I wasn't even born at the time! (made you feel old, didn't I?)
Your online manners are atrocious.
I have been more than a little condescending, so for that, I apologize. Instead, I'll be direct with you from here on out.
Your posts in this forum (to which I have replied -- to be honest, I didn't even realize both posts were the same troll, so at the very least I was weighing them on their merits alone) have been nothing more than "this element is dumb, the sky is falling, I can't believe they did this, this is a slap in the face" -- the very definition of troll posts. You make new threads not to foster community or discussion, but rather to simply dump on the very thing we're actually here to discuss.
Your posts clearly show that you're not interested in furthering the game or game community, but rather whining pointlessly about things you don't like. You offer no suggestions, you present no solutions, you provide no content of any value to anyone in this forum. You just post your negative opinion, which is useful to no one, and move on. These things need to stop.
My posts on your thread(s) have also been less than useful, at least as far as the forum itself goes, except that hopefully it will make you sit back and really think about what actual benefit your thread provides to the forum as a whole before dumping your verbal diarrhea into this text box and hitting "Submit Post."
No, on the contrary, it is you who are ruining the flavor of an old and much enjoyed forum.
Not really, if you read the valley and dust and fire.
Depends if you consider "a wiz... sorcerer king did it" a logical explanation.
Thanks to the psionically empowered great walls of Ur Draxa, the deadly heat doesn't affect the city's resources.
Exactly.
The massive city has forests, lakes, andfields. I guess it could be hard for some folks to understandhow lakes could exist in the harshest, most barren wasteland of the known world, but when you toss psionics in the mix, and incredibly powerful psionics at that, things become a lot easier to grasp.
Exactly.
It's not harder to understand, it's just that I've swallowed too many "a wizard did it" pills in my life.
This is D&D after all and not a reflection of real life. (If a city of undead beings can make sense, then a city protected by psionic power also makes sense)
That doesn't mean we should accept every single shoddy magical explanation for the illogic, which is how I perceive that version of Ur Draxa, personal opinion and all.
It is also worth noting, that Vodaf states "the great ash storm and the ring of fire are not natural phenomena, but defenses of an awesome scale."It's very safe to assume that nearly every aspect of the valley of dust and fire was "created" to help safeguard rajaat's prison. Further evidence of the unbelievable power of the SKs, the dragon and epic level power.
I agree, but this doesn't change things - in fact, if pushed too far can lead to contradicting elements. The idea of magic capable of allowing water and green to prosper in an hostile environment for example isn't something I would want to push too far on Dark Sun specifically. A part of the charm of the setting is that the planet is hostile to SKs too.
Which it does and I wouldn't say the city has no outside communication at all. Remember, psionics and magic are used and the dragon will pass information when necessary.
I'm thinking of the average men here. What I'm saying is that a place like that would literally draw people crazy. More often than not lore creators focus on creating multiple justifications and details for major players, and end up creating worlds that aren't credible on a basic level.
The truth is that the Dragon could adapt living on top of a volcano populated with ice titans dual wielding bazookas.
Seriously, this cracks me up. Picturing the dragon, or any sorcerer king, teaching a class is comical. They have subordinates that do that, as it is completely beneith the station of a ruler. Ur Draxa has the hall of learning, for both mundane and magical/psionic learning. Have you even read the valley of dust and fire?
Yes, Ur Draxa has the halls of learning, and who has experience of the outside world? Who goes out to gather informations, or to verify them? Exactly because the Dragon doesn't give private lessons it makes no sense that the town would have that kind of structure.
Your attitude seems to be that "if it's written in the book, it's ok". My point is exactly that what's written in the book makes no sense, because it's put together in an inconsequential, "a wizard did it" way. In my opinion, Ur Draxa as depicted in the VoDaF is both absurd and superficial.
1. the organic life in the city would allow the dragon and every defiler in the city to go nuts for a long time with spellcasting, unless the dragon cast the super mega ultimate world ending spell that it has never used. The practice and use of magic within the city is probably very controlled and completely banned in certain parts of the city.
2. No one grows crops next to lava pools. More exaggeration. The walls of the city are psionically enchanted to stay just above freezing and the heat from the ring of fire does not affect the city.
Once again, a wizard did it. Yes, I know that the idea that Ur Draxa is a sprawling metropolis full of forests and gardens protected by psionically enhanced walls and flying rocs, sitting in the middle of a lava ring that is in the middle of a permanent dust storm that is in the middle of a sea of silt that is in the middle of a desert world works within the presumptions of fantasy conventions; I just find it supremely uninteresting. As I said, we're already victim of too many "a wizard did it" cop outs, and this one is too big for my tastes.
It's suppose to. It's not suppose to feel natural in any way. It's a construct, the entire region was built for a single purpose, to keep rajaat in prison. It's suppose to feel completely epic, starting with the region itself, moving on to the insane walls that are 700 feet high and a quater of a mile thick. This is the end all, be all of bad ass locations that the players could go to. It's the ultimate fortress/prison.
I think you're misunderstanding the meaning of artificial; I mean so in the context of its function. Besides, VoDaF didn't have that much enfasis on keeping Rajaat prisoner at all. Which was also my beef. Ur Draxa didn't feel like a prison, nor a fortress. It wasn't scary. It wasn't dark. Heck, it was probably (once you rule out the paranoid aspects of being ruled by an all-powerful Dragonbeing and his sect of undead warriors) the nicest place on the planet. Heat? Siltstorms? The sun? Psionic defences. Predators? The hazards of the desert? Monsters? The Dragon takes care of that, and nobody has to ever travel out for anything. Food? Water? Resources? It's all here, and all plenty.
Ur Draxa is supposed to be the City of Doom. It should be sitting on the prison-tomb of the setting's archvillain, and inhabited by the currently most dangerous being around. It's supposed to be dreadful, not a paradise.
Any slave used to power the binding rituals of rajaat's prison were obliterated and reduced to ash. Simply not possible to resurrect the spirit in the same body. The most that could happen would be spirts, wraiths and ghosts. That's assuming he didn't consume the spirit as well.
Borys needing any form of sacrifice to keep Rajaat prisoner isn't part of the new canon, so far. DMs are free to justify the levy however they want. Personally, I have the Dragon use the lifeforce of the slaves for binding rituals - bodies are left back and plenty possible to reanimate as undeads.
Nothing absurd about it in the least. Dregoth had no choice. If the SKs discovered his return as an undead dragon at the time, they would have united and destroyed him. Making sure he couldn't return. So what was he suppose to do? Of all the city-states, Giustenal was the most complete destruction we know about. The sorcerer kings sunk half the city and scorched the other half and obliterated nearly all life in the city.
Still, he can build a city for living beings underground. He's build a new town, no real limitations there.
Or course, if you want to really understand what it was like, and don't have the book, imagine the culture of the drow: hidden noble warring, feuds, honor killings and duels, any non-human is simply cattle to be abused as a slave. It may look like paradise, but it ain't.
Exactly.
It's not harder to understand, it's just that I've swallowed too many "a wizard did it" pills in my life.
A Wizard Did ItTM. $19.99 a month for 20 easy to swallow capsules.
Ur Draxa had forests, but they were forests filled with Trees of Life. The Dragon's sanctum had nothing BUT trees of life in it. .
I find this story-telling kind of lame. "Not only does Ur Draxa have awesome forests and lakes, each tree is a Tree of Life. Their power-level is over NINE THOUSAND!"
Ur Draxa had forests, but they were forests filled with Trees of Life. The Dragon's sanctum had nothing BUT trees of life in it. .
I find this story-telling kind of lame. "Not only does Ur Draxa have awesome forests and lakes, each tree is a Tree of Life. Their power-level is over NINE THOUSAND!"
Seconded. I'll keep the "new" Ur-Draxa.
p.s. Don't see how these changes ruins anything important.
Then again, I'v always been a fan of the 2e setting material. Infact, I don't think there is a single 2e DS product I didn't enjoy completely. Ur Draxa used to be very unique and though we really don't know much about the changes made in 4e, it seems it's nothing like it used to be, which really kills a large part of the appeal for me, since I believe they got it perfect the first time. But I'll take a fantastic region created to protect rajaat's prison over an ancient, mundane ruin of undead any day.
First off, it was enormous, and very much an inversion of what was considered standard in Dark Sun. Instead of a dense city population in a relatively small city area, it was a relatively small population spread out across an ENORMOUS area. So enormous that large sections of the city WERE in ruins and abandoned.
Large sections of the city were nothing but wild forests, with some large lakes, all protected by the colossal city walls (they were what, like 2,000 feet high or something? Coupled with magical wards on top of that?).
There was a very insular but self-sustaining populace of noble families that harkened back to Borys' original soldiers (or possibly original families from Ebe). Governance was by the Dead Lords. There were relatively regular influxes of new slaves to keep their population up. The inner sanctum WAS literally nothing but trees of life. It's crazy and insane re: scale, but you have to remember: Borys was immortal and incredibly, mind-crushingly powerful, and had thousands of years at his disposal.
I know it's just opinion, and everyone's entitled to their own, but I preferred the original to what I'm hearing about now. There was just so much potential and "omgwtf?" about Ur Draxa, ESPECIALLY in the context of the outside world of the tablelands. Making it another dead city full of undead dilutes a lot of the original wonder associated with it. At the same time, and bearing in mind I haven't read the new material, I imagine there's still the possibility that the info given on "new" Ur Draxa may be incomplete, and could still fit in with the original info from valley of dust and fire: parts of Ur Draxa WERE abandoned ruins, afterall. The Ur Draxan noble families WERE experiencing birthrate problems, and it wasn't uncommon for some of them to be shrinking and and wind up abandoning some of their building complexes to wild growth.
Never mind.
Damn, Eric, I wasn't even born at the time! (made you feel old, didn't I?)
Ah, you missed some great TV, still I saw those in reruns. I ain't that old! Pretty sure most of those skits are on Hulu or Youtube or the internet somewhere . . .
Add me to the "I prefer the old version" group.
I find this story-telling kind of lame. "Not only does Ur Draxa have awesome forests and lakes, each tree is a Tree of Life. Their power-level is over NINE THOUSAND!"
Maybe it is lame, but that's what it was. I really liked it, at the time. I haven't read the new stuff, so I have no idea what it would be like. If I ever run anything, I,ll just use the best of both worlds.
Seconded. I'll keep the "new" Ur-Draxa.
p.s. Don't see how these changes ruins anything important.
They don't necessarily ruin anything important. The new Ur-Draxa could still be a death trap for any PC party wanting to kill the Dragon in its home. The idea with the old was was just how determined and focused the Dragon was at proctecting Rajaat's prison.
Oh, and in the book there is nothing... NOTHING... about Rajaat being in there. At the time of the release of the product, we didn't even know who Rajaat was. All that was mentioned was the Dragon's Sanctum contained a gaint floating Obsidian orb. It was stated that no one, not even the Dead Lords knew what it was for.
So, when we were first introduce to it, it wasn't all just one big prison, but something else.
Yes, Oba Lulalai-Pui does it in Gulg, but she does so by using her magic to bend the primal spirits to her will, a very clever but roundabout way of going about it. It seems like something difficult to master and it's deepest secrets known only to her (no one else uses it). I'm even willing to bet most if not all the other Sorcerer-Kings have kidnapped some of her templars to try and uncover the secrets... maybe it isn't open to everyone, maybe only to people who would otherwise grow to be primal casters on their own, hence her strange way of picking templars.
Once again, we have to remember that all the second edition stuff and novels are essentially non-cannonical, "secondary" sources at this point.
The recent edition of D&D developers have strived for a bit more internal logic and consistancy in the settings, that 2nd Edition developers didn't really seem to worry about stuff like that (especially in novels!
)Mmm, perhaps you have a life. Might you have a girlfriend? Studying? hehe
An immediate exception that pops to mind is Hamanu, who essentially defiled himself to fuel his spells (in general, with some exceptions: although this is from Rise and Fall, which I know a number of people simply do not like at all), but even he had extensive royal gardens (undoubtedly full of various trees of life).
When dealing with Dark Sun, and more specifically near godlike beings like the upper tier SKs like Dregoth and Borys, "A Wizard Did It," makes more sense than supposedly normal logic.
Add me to the "I prefer the old version" group.
The core problem is that the fundamental idea behind Dark Sun is that magic kills life; that's why I find the entire idea of the greatest defiler on the planet keeping up a small verdant paradise with *magic* just over the tomb of the greatest evil the planet has ever seen hard to swallow.
I understand people liking the old Ur Draxa; it was a testament to the Dragon's power. It had many consistency problems, and some blatant exaggerations (I think Pennarin has the perfect vision of the tree of life problem - they're there, but they're not lush forests, more like gnarling, deformed trees), but it was cool because it was like "and while nobody knows, the Dragon has a city state too, and it's over nine thousands in everything".
As I said, my personal opinion is that I prefer things consistent. I imagine the Dragon as a being the oozes defiling. He sweats death. You can't live near him. Where he walks, the grass withers, the leaves fall and sand turns to ash. In my games, players can spot places where the Dragon striked because he leaves behind terrains so defiled that even the sand turns grey. The way I see Athas in my games, the world is dying, and the Dragon is one of its cancers. Making the Champions started it; making the Dragon was the last wound. As long as they exist, the world will keep dying, and the Dragon is the biggest life-drain on the planet. He can't have his own private paradise, and that's a part of his curse, with the pain and madness. The only things that can live close to him for long are undeads and constructs and living being so powerful that can survive his presence - certainly not commoners and slaves.
On top of that, it's friggin' Rajaat's tomb. Yes, the Dragon may want to build a glorious city state there, but my view is that Rajaat's presence is so powerful that even imprisoned he would affect the outside world. And certainly not make it better. I always portrayed Rajaat's influence becoming stronger and stronger and this being shown in the Valley when the time to renew the seals comes - anything from the storms intensifying, living creatures going mad, more and more frequent lava eruptions, earthquakes, a voice in the wind. Rajaat's tomb should be, in my views, an apocalyptic place. It's not a silent tomb that someone guards from intruders; he's always close to escaping.
I can't really see THIS Ur Draxa as the umpteen undead town. I picture it as a maze of gardens and palaces where undead creatures lie in stillness, waiting for orders and tending to massive, deformed life trees, while in the middle of it the Dragon kneels with his claws planted in the ground, hissing words of hate, the earth shaking in answer.
Yes, Borys and the other SKs are Defilers. But that doesn't mean they are incapable of sustaining life if they want to.
Remember the Avangion, which is still an Arcane Caster, is one of the greatest sustainers and creators of life in Dark Sun. Possibly more so than anything other than a Pyreen, and definitely more so than the Primal Spirits.
Yes, Borys and the other SKs are Defilers. But that doesn't mean they are incapable of sustaining life if they want to.
I think it's a matter of how you interpret the setting. To me, the Avangion's ability to sustain life is exactly what makes him different. I like to imagine my SKs as nigh-omnipotent casters but still fundamentally struggling with the secrets of keeping things alive under the scorching sun.
I understand someone else may prefer to allow SKs to maintain small pockets of ground where their powers are strong enough to preserve life unharmed, and it's certainly something the fluff can support, but generally I think at the various gardens the SKs keep as something they treasure more than something they fuel.
So, while my game doesn't fully support what you're saying, I can easily see someone else taking that approach.
As for where do they get water in the middle of the sea of silt... there could be an elemental vortex bringing in water from the elemental chaos, possibly created or moved to the site by magic (pick your favorite flavor/power source).
If you say Rajatt IS there, then perhaps even through his prison he (possibly unintentionally) sustains the greenery in some way. Perhaps primal spirits are drawn to his prison, and the dragon must spend time/energy/resources keeping them from freeing him. Perhaps they provide the greenery, to mock and spite him.
It could also be that Ur Draxa is actually in the lands within the winds, and all the lava and crap is on Athas proper.
Actually you could have both versions... the blighted undead version on Athas prime and the beatific city within the feywild.
[...]... the blighted undead version on Athas prime and the beatific city within the feywild.
Oh! I like that idea. Not sure I'll ever have a game go there, but that would be awesome-sauce on cake.
If you say Rajatt IS there, then perhaps even through his prison he (possibly unintentionally) sustains the greenery in some way. Perhaps primal spirits are drawn to his prison, and the dragon must spend time/energy/resources keeping them from freeing him. Perhaps they provide the greenery, to mock and spite him.
It could also be that Ur Draxa is actually in the lands between the winds, and all the lava and crap is on Athas proper.
Two new ideas, never before given on this forum. Kudos.
Two new ideas, never before given on this forum. Kudos.
Oh! I like that idea. Not sure I'll ever have a game go there, but that would be awesome-sauce on cake.
Thanks guys, I'm an INTP so seeing possibilities is second nature, actually deciding on something / following through... not so much.
So if anyone runs with one of these ideas and wants to share, I'd love to see it.
Also, it occurs to me that if you were to go with the "primal spirits taunting the dragon" option, you would have some potentially very powerful (but limited) allies to help the pcs get in or out or help conceal them while they are within Ur Draxa.
Obviously manifesting and attacking the Dragon isn't something a primal spirit would/could do... but helping the pcs go to ground effectively and/or guiding them to locations/items they need and/or protecting them from scrying seems reasonable, allowing the pcs to wage an effective non-symmetric/guerrilla war.
Perhaps those sorts of things could be taken out of the PC's favor "account" with the primal spirits.
I mean obviously this is still a late paragon/epic tier kind of place to go, but it changes it from a throwdown to something more adventurous, you might even have lower level pcs go there for reasons other than fighting the Dragon... perhaps there is something there that a SK or some other powerful figure wants, but can't get for fear of angering the Dragon... but the pcs have just the right ninja skills to pull off the caper. I'm seeing something very Oceans 11 here.
I mean either way you see it, that has always been the problem with Ur Draxa, it just isn't useful, because just showing up uninvited means fighting the whole city + the dragon.
This makes me think that instead of making a PCs have to break IN Ur Draxa sort of quest, they could be taken as slaves and then have to break OUT of Ur Draxa.
Escape from paradise. The forest, water and ruins provide food and shelter for the PCs. Letting them accumulate weapons and magical items to make their final escape move.
Borys won't bother with slave escaping or even the Dead Lords. Well unless the PCs do some stupid stuff.
I like this idea to use the city quite a bit as well. The 2e material suggested a similar thing, that there were tribes of escaped slaves clinging to life between the city and the tempest, or even in the abandoned portions of the city itself. You could potentially stick even level 1 characters in that situation and run a whole campaign within the Valley of Dust and Fire.
It was the primal spirits' power, unified as a whole - which Hamanu called the Spirit of Athas - that ultimately changed him back into a regular human after he turned into the Dragon of Urik. Considering the kind of power these spirits wield in 4e...totally believable (now that 4e is out).
But such powerful spirits, or a big gestalt one, were never before invoked as a plot device in any of the supplements or novels before Rise, so their intervention in the affairs of mortals and immortals alike is without much precedent, and the effect and goals of such an intervention left to the imagination. Maybe they can be Athas' salvation.
Do with it as you want.
If you say Rajatt IS there, then perhaps even through his prison he (possibly unintentionally) sustains the greenery in some way. Perhaps primal spirits are drawn to his prison, and the dragon must spend time/energy/resources keeping them from freeing him. Perhaps they provide the greenery, to mock and spite him.
It could also be that Ur Draxa is actually in the lands between the winds, and all the lava and crap is on Athas proper.
Two new ideas, never before given on this forum. Kudos.
And two good ones to booth.
In fact, if Rajaat's prison was verdant exactly because it was his prison (either because of his presence or because of spirits) players could be led into thinking that freeing him could be a good idea. After all, they could not know anything about him, and all they could know would come from sources they cannot trust. And if the Dragon doesn't want him out, he's bound to be "good", no? It could lead to an interesting campaign arc.
On the primal spirits, I think they're a very powerful storytelling device now exactly because of what you said, Pennarin - they're basically the top dog in the 4e cosmology. I think the game is quite clear about the fact that there's various degrees of power even among them, but the most powerful ones would definitely be capable to sustain a city like the old Ur Draxa - either willingly or forced by the Dragon.
1. In the PoL, the primal spirits push the gods and primordials out of the world to save it from destruction. The gods could have destroyed the primal spirits, but doing so would have also destroyed the world. So they left it alone.
2. The primordials naturally hate the mortal creations of the gods and want them destroyed. They also want the world (the now corrupted creation) destroyed. The primal spirits want to prevent this, so they would be eternal enemies of the primordials. With the gods defeated, the primal spirits could still prevent primordials from entering the world. At least, that would be a reality if the primal spirits had not been devastated by defiling magic.
In darksun, the athasian primal spirits are only a shadow of what the PoL spirits are. These athasian spirits have suffered horribly and a great many of them have been wiped out with the loss of the ocean, seas, rivers, lakes, forests and so on. No longer capable of preventing primordials from entering the world (which is proven with the silt kraken and another primordial living in a volcano) the primordials can destroy athas. How they would go about this is it's own debate thread.
Needless to say, I do not believe for an instant that primal spirits are more powerful than either gods or primordials. Especially in darksun. I mean, the Oba enslaves primal spirits, after all. Primal spirits are awesome and all, but lets not get carried away.
Primal spirits as the top dogs... That's interesting, but not anything like the PoL version, which leads to some issues regarding athas, primal spirits and primordials.
1. In the PoL, the primal spirits push the gods and primordials out of the world to save it from destruction. The gods could have destroyed the primal spirits, but doing so would have also destroyed the world. So they left it alone.
Do you have any source for this, or any other thing you said here?
There's a lot of people who don't know the lore inside out reading this, and you're stating a lot of quite bizzarre personal interpretations as facts. All sources I can recall (Primal Power, the MM2+, the Demonomicon etc) are quite clear about stating that Primal Spirits are a lot more powerful than gods, Primordials and Obyriths.
Primal spirits do come in various power levels, that's something the books state. The Oba is enslaving weak ones, probably safe from the overpowering ones' retaliation due to the nature of the planet. But the original primal spirits that put an end to the Dawn War were powerful enough to take on both gods and primordials at the same time.
Do you have any source for this, or any other thing you said here?
I sure do, do you? Can you provide a source that says primal spirits are more powerful than gods or even capable of destroying a god? I highly doubt it since I'v read every 4e product, have a near obsession with the PoL lore and can't think of a single example. Most I can come up with is that in the mortal/natural world, the primal spirits power is supreme and that's me using my own interpretation of everything I'v read.
But, because I like to talk about this stuff, I'll give you some info.
1. "The gods didn't want to destroy the world to spite the primal spirits." This tells us the gods are capable of destroying the world. This tells us the primal spirits while capable of preventing god or primordial from manifesting in full power in the world without drawing the fury of the spirits, could not stop the worlds destruction should the gods chose to destroy it. (primal power is the source, the spirit way fluff, "in the beginning", section.)
2." Even gods and primordials are hard pressed to destroy them [primal spirits] - at least, by any means short of destroying the world."
Like removing a tumor from the brain without killing the patient.
And "Local spirits die when the natural features they're connected to are killed or destroyed." So easy enough with these spirits. Burn the forest down, dry up the lake, obliterate the mountain range. Not even a question of "if you can" with the gods.
And " There are legends, however, of powerful individuals or artifacts that allow mortals both to see into the spirit world and to kill the primal spirits that inhabit it." ( it does on to describe the consequences of killing a primal spirit) So the gods and primordials, lords of hell and the demon princes could provide methods (powerful artifacts) to use to kill primal spirits. Hell, even powerful mortals could kill primal spirits.
(Primal power is the source, "the spirits and the spirit world" section.)
There's a lot of people who don't know the lore inside out reading this, and you're stating a lot of quite bizzarre personal interpretations as facts.
Actually, I'm just using my own words instead of citing, word for word, the facts found in the book. I understand some folks don't know these things as they're scattered through all the books and magazines and even some adventures. But I'm not interpreting personal opin as fions as fact. I'm stating fact in my own words. Read the books more carefully or go have a discussion about this subject in the general forums. But make sure you're talking to people who actually know what they're talking about.
All sources I can recall (Primal Power, the MM2+, the Demonomicon etc) are quite clear about stating that Primal Spirits are a lot more powerful than gods, Primordials and Obyriths.
This is incorrect and you should re-read those sources again. I'd more than welcome you to show me I'm wrong as I want to know the facts and I could be mistaken. Although, I don't really think I'm mistaken and I'm just trying to be as civil as possible.
The Oba is enslaving weak ones, probably safe from the overpowering ones' retaliation due to the nature of the planet.
Where does it say this, exactly? I'm unable to find anyting that claims the enslaved spirits are weak nor anything about retaliation.
But the original primal spirits that put an end to the Dawn War were powerful enough to take on both gods and primordials at the same time.
What are you talking about? First, the primal spirits did not end the dawn war. In the PoL, the gods won by trapping or destroying the strongest primordials. In darksun, the primordials won and we have no idea what the primal spirits did. As for "taking on the gods and primordials", this isn't correct either. They had the power to push them out of the mortal world and keep them from manifesting in full power in the mortal world. Nothing else. Where are you getting this info?
As for providing info on the primordials hating mortals and the corruption of the world by the gods. I won't be providing sources for that, as it's dawn war 101 and people should read up on it themselves if they want to know. Believe it, don't believe it. It's in the books. As for the primal spirits being enemies to the primordials, this would be common sense to anyone who knows the goals of the primordials, which is to destroy the corrupted world and create a new one, which they will destroy following that up with creating a new world yet again. Which is their nature. Again, read the books.
As for my opinion of athasian primal spirits, and yes it is only my opinion, many of them would have been killed off by the destruction of the land or severely weakened. Those that remain would be pissed off. Maybe the spirits of the forest ridge and the last sea might be a bit milder. They would certainly not be friendly towards primordials and they obviously do not have the power to expel them from the world because athas has at least two primordials we know about. The silt kraken and the one in the volcano.
Primal Power would be the source of the comparative might of gods, primordials, and primal spirits.
Primal Power would be the source of the comparative might of gods, primordials, and primal spirits.
I'm reading that as sarcasm. I hope I'm reading it right.
Honestly I likewise do not put a whole lot of faith in the book about gods telling me how great and powerful they are any more than I would put a log of trust in the book about mages telling me how great and powerful they are... and I'm certainly not going to take the word of the book about tree hugging to tell me how wonderful Greenpeace is.
Thing of it is, in Athas, there ARE NO GODS, so the mere fact that Athas exists means either:
a) the primal spirts are able to keep the vast majority of Primordials at bay.
Just because there are a few Pirmordials hanging out in places like the Sea of bloody Silt or the caldera of a hugenormous volcano doesn't mean that a Primordial could pop into the badlands between Tyr and Urik and not get jumped by the primal spirits, maybe those places where the Primordials dwell, the spirits are dead/powerless... but I don't think "desert" = "no primal spirits left" or even that the primal sprits of a desert would be weaker than those of a forest... and if you do you are just showing a bias towards the kind of life you prefer.
Anyway maybe those two primordials are just hanging out... not threatening reality on the larger scale... just eating a few pcs here or there and watching reruns of House, so the primal spirits have no reason to hedge them out. ...or those locations are actually within the bounds of the Elemental Chaos a lot more than they are the natural world... the EC eats at Athas Prime as Athas Prime eats away at the lands within the winds, and a feature like the Sea of Silt is just the damage done "to date".
and/or
b) There just aren't that many powerful primordials hanging out in the Athasian Elemental Chaos, either the gods killed most of them off before eventually losing the war, or perhaps as I suggested in another thread...
Athas was a weapon of the PoL gods, the one world (that we know of) that they "let go" in order to save the rest... Perhaps the Grey traps the primordials (for this to work you have to assume the Grey cuts off a portion of the EC connected to Athas from the larger EC of the PoL setting, which of course has not been even vaguely alluded to in any book of any edition) as much as it does would be astral travelers. And perhaps it is a prison that only contains one or two "big" Primordials and a handfull of lesser ones (such as the Silt Kraken).
At any rate they just don't have the force of arms to blow up Athas, or perhaps doing so would be harmful to them, for example, lets say the mortals living and more importantly dying are the only thing strengthening the grey... if they were to stop "repairing" the wall with their souls... it would collapse... Granted if it collapsed outward that would mean freedom for the Primordials... but the way I see it, the greater pressure (from the rest of creation) would be pushing the Grey inwards... so more than likely the whole Athasian Demiverse would simply fade to Grey, primordials and all.
and/or
c) The Primordials of Athas have a very different reason than those of PoL for not setting us up the bomb.
Personally I like to think that they ARE trying to blow it all up, but even as ****ed as Athas is, they still have only managed to slip a few of their number into the world... so far, and the players may have to make a stand to prevent further encroachment.
If the Primordials have some sort of deal going with the SKs that could explain why (in 2e) they could grant templar's cleric powers through the elemental vortex(es), and depending on how that deal was "worded" could explain why the SKs themselves don't / can't tap in. but using 4e to explain 2e mechanics that we know were just there because "someone had to be a healer" is kind of dumb...
Anyway... I'm not really sure how we got on the whole who's wang is bigger? Primordials or Primal Spirits, thing anyway...
If it was my fault... I'm pretty sure I didn't indicate at all that the primal spirits were unstoppable juggernauts with ridiculous sex appeal.
I mean the fact that they are kind of pansies is why they aid the players to accomplish their goals instead of just curb stomping everything that stands in their way.
If they have any "real" power at all it is clearly invested in abjuration.
abjuration (plural abjurations)
- The act of abjuring or forswearing; a renunciation upon oath; as, abjuration of the realm, a sworn banishment, an oath taken to leave the country and never to return.
- A solemn recantation or renunciation; as, an abjuration of heresy.
Just because they are very good at saying "you have no power here" to gods and primordials (in all settings), doesn't mean they themselves have much/any power here either.
The way I look at the primal spirits is as an animist... the gods can't destroy the rocks because the rocks do not want to be destroyed, not because the rocks could kill the gods if they tried... basically, the world knows who/what it is, and no outside force can easily convince it otherwise.
edit... lol I said "log of trust" i'm just going to leave it like that because it is AWESOME.
I'm being literal, cudmaster. The might of these three types of entities is compared in one book, and that book is Primal Power. Where's the sarcasm exactly? Note: I am not being sarcastic right now (you never know).
It coulda gone either way... I was just seeing what you were saying as sarcastic in a sure i believe this report on a drug's effectiveness that was sponsored by the manufacturer of the drug in question kind of way.
It is always somewhat ambiguous I think if anything in the fluff of a D&D book (perhaps less so with 4e) is written from the perspective of the "truth" or if it is from the perspective of the topic it is about (or even just one game designer's opinion).
We as players/gms are always free to use or not use anything even if it is given as cannon truth, so getting super serious and having a quote war seems a little absurd to me.
However, I don't think things were getting out of hand or anything, I mean VisanidethDM did ASK for quotes, and they were good quotes, they got a whole wall of text of ideas out of me at least.
I guess concern was that we were getting pretty tangential as in...
You know not to be the topic gestapo or anything. but... hey that Boryos character... hes pretty cool huh? why are we talking about the comparative power of primordials and primal spirits now?
PS: are there any primal spirits listed in any monster manual anywhere? I'm guessing not.
None of it is say so, rumors, or interpretations. It's backed up in every release following Primal Power's (from other supplements to DDI articles) that features a mixture of primal spirits and either gods or primordials.
1. "The gods didn't want to destroy the world to spite the primal spirits." This tells us the gods are capable of destroying the world. This tells us the primal spirits while capable of preventing god or primordial from manifesting in full power in the world without drawing the fury of the spirits, could not stop the worlds destruction should the gods chose to destroy it. (primal power is the source, the spirit way fluff, "in the beginning", section.)
2." Even gods and primordials are hard pressed to destroy them [primal spirits] - at least, by any means short of destroying the world."
Like removing a tumor from the brain without killing the patient.
That doesn't mean the gods are more powerful than the spirits. It means any attempts by the gods to fight the spirits, successful or not, would cause so much damge that it would effectively destroy the world. That does not imply that the gods are automatically more powerful.
I think it's Points of Light, the unnamed base setting for D&D, presented in all of the Dungeon Master guides to date, and the world in which all of the non-setting specific adventures are set.
Primal Power would be the source of the comparative might of gods, primordials, and primal spirits.
Thank you kindly, Pennarin.
Whoa, fluff? Saying that the natural world is x y z is indeed fluff, doesn't mean fluff is up for interpretation.
It says in the DMG that everything is open to interpretation.
Also... this is Athas, and until WotC sets something in soft clay by publishing on a particular topic in a dark sun article or book, I think the default should be to assume that any fluff regarding the PoL game world is going to be "stood on it's head" here.
Fine, but that's not much of an answer since your prior statement wasn't about that.
Rather than say it's up for interpretation in one's own game, akin to retconing, you rather said "It is always somewhat ambiguous I think if anything in the fluff of a D&D book (perhaps less so with 4e) is written from the perspective of the "truth" or if it is from the perspective of the topic it is about (or even just one game designer's opinion)." Actually in PoL the books are the truth and are not written in perspective. For example, we do not learn about the gods from the writings of their followers, but rather straight from the imagination of the WotC product's author; he or she is giving it to us through no filter of opinions. Planescape's lore, on the contrary, was constantly given to us through the writings of fictional people with different philosophical views, with skewed visions contradicting each other (all intentional on the part of the TSR authors). This writing technique is now rarely used in 4e.
The point is: all PoL published material will work on the assumption primal spirit > primordial > god, and without any indication to the contrary so will Dark Sun, since all settings carry this assumption as well.
The point is: all PoL published material will work on the assumption primal spirit > primordial > god, and without any indication to the contrary so will Dark Sun, since all settings carry this assumption as well.
I disagree (with great vigor); in regards to Dark Sun everything should be questioned and run through the Dark Sun filter, including the material in the Dark Sun books themselves.
As for your ps>primordial>god thing... I really think you are oversimplifying a very complex relationship, each are powerful, in certain ways and given particular circumstances any one could be considered more powerful. If I were to guess, I'd bet that Mike Mearls (the guy that is credited on the cover of Primal Power) would not be punching the air if he reads your arguments, rather he would be putting his face in his palm.
The very first words of the "In the Beginning" section on page 116 are...
wait for it...
"Those who follow the spirit way believe..." [emphasis mine]
...the section goes on to pretty much describe the primal spirits as I envision them; having very limited power to do pretty much squat other than keep the primordials and gods from messing with the mortal world overly much (though obviously not entirely). Kind of like they are gnats, I can swat at them all I like, and maybe even kill some, but if I wanted to rid the world of them... well I'd probably have to shatter the planet and expose the remains to hard radiation and the vacuum of space.
In the Primal Spirits section on page 121 it says "As a rule, the power of the primal spirits is greatest in the world..." which I guess you could misconstrue as to meaning that their power is greater than anything else in the universe, but the sentence continues "...but player characters who wield primal power are at no disadvantage when their adventures take them to the planes and beyond."
So it is pretty obvious that it is simply stating that their power (relative to itself) is most powerful in the natural (prime) world, and kind of dwindles on the planes, but that doesn't limit player characters (not because it necessarily shouldn't, but because that would be kind of not fun for the druid player). It goes on to talk about how normal folks (like that tribal shaman npc) wouldn't really enjoy being in the astral because they can't hear the spirits there.
The section goes on to discuss how they don't have any tangible form and are largely just hokum that savages believe in.
It also describes primal characters as "bringing their power with them"... almost like this belief in crazy all powerful but invisible spirits is just their primitive mind's way of interpreting their own innate psionic power.
So clearly, psionics is really the most powerful, after all their book did come out last.
I can't wait for Shadow Power to come out so we can all suddenly start thinking the universe is ruled by shadows, because I'm pretty sure (if Rajatt is any guide post at all, and of course he is because it supports my argument) that creatures from the shadowfel can pretty much make the primal spirits do whatever the frell they want them to... even make them create rain on Athas, and turn the sun blue.
Should I invoke Godwin now or do you want to?
1. "The gods didn't want to destroy the world to spite the primal spirits." This tells us the gods are capable of destroying the world. This tells us the primal spirits while capable of preventing god or primordial from manifesting in full power in the world without drawing the fury of the spirits, could not stop the worlds destruction should the gods chose to destroy it. (primal power is the source, the spirit way fluff, "in the beginning", section.)
2." Even gods and primordials are hard pressed to destroy them [primal spirits] - at least, by any means short of destroying the world."
Like removing a tumor from the brain without killing the patient.
That doesn't mean the gods are more powerful than the spirits. It means any attempts by the gods to fight the spirits, successful or not, would cause so much damge that it would effectively destroy the world. That does not imply that the gods are automatically more powerful.
Yes but all the information suggests that the gods could destroy the primal spirits if they chose to. If a powerful mortal or artifact could, then I don't see how it's even a question of whether or not a god or primordial could. Some primal spirits are incredibly powerful, like the world serpent and a spirit like the world serpent would be nearly impossible to kill without destroying the world. It's possible though, but the consequences of destroying a "global" spirit would be devastating. The gods want the world intact for many reasons. Primordials on the other hand, don't care about the destruction the death of the world serpent would cause. In the PoL fluff, the most powerful of the primordials are locked away or weakened. Those that remain, while powerful, probably couldn't manifest enough power in the mortal world, fast enough, to succeed at destroying a major spirit like the world serpent. The spirits would sense the primordial and expel it. (by "Global" I mean Great Elder)
Since I don't have the athasian dawn war lore (as there is none), I can't use anything else for the basis of my opinion, so I use the PoL lore. Going by what I'v read, the primordials would be capable of accomplishing what they wanted, which is to destroy the world corrupted by the gods and all the mortal creations of the gods and then start over again and craft a clean world of elemental purity that hasn't been infected by the astral deities. The primal spirits are beaten, bloody and desparate. They probably stand no chance at preventing the primordials from doing much of anything.
IMO, Athas is a great example of what a world would look like if the gods in the PoL lore had destroyed many/most of the great elder spirits. Although, I think athas is in better shape than the PoL world would have been in had they destroyed the primal spirits.
I'm sure, eventually, we will get some dragon/dungeon articles on the athasian dawn war, more creation myth, primordials, the ruined astral sea and especially athasian primal spirits. At least, I hope we do.
The point is: all PoL published material will work on the assumption primal spirit > primordial > god, and without any indication to the contrary so will Dark Sun, since all settings carry this assumption as well.
This simply isn't the case. Primal spirits have very limited power when compared to gods and primordials. In the mortal world, the spirits power is at it's peak and they're very, very powerful. Which comes through clearly when they push the gods and primordials out of the mortal world. Beyond that, they are just powerful spirits. If the gods had not stopped the primordials, they primordials would have had no trouble defeating the primal spirits and destroy the world. If the gods didn't care about the consequences the world would suffer, they could have killed the spirits as well.
In darksun, there is a serious problem because the primal spirits are devastated and the primordials are capable of existing in the world. This begs a huge question, what's stopping them from completing their goal of destroying the world?
Jokes aside, sure, there are many assumptions in our discussion, foremost that players will adventure in the PoL's and Dark Sun's natural worlds, the one place where primal spirits will prevent primordials from messing around...leaving the playing field to mortals, there no longer being gods and all. Without this assumption, primal spirits cannot be stated to be intrinsically more powerful than another being. Thanks for pointing it out, though. They may never stat those spirits, leaving them, perhaps, in the realm of the plot device.
Interesting discussion.
The hierarchy of power is absolutely clear.
I suggest anyone who implies that gods and primordials were as powerful or more than primal spirits to re-read page 5 of the PHB2. The text is very clear: primal spirits stopped the war at their own whim. They set the rules and the gods had to abide to them. They banished primordials and they've been so ever since.
The hierarchy of power is absolutely clear.
Yes, that is yet another source that conflicts with others. The most common suggestion is that the gods victory over the primordials ended the war and that the world was made to be off limits for the continued conflict. They set the rules regarding the interaction with the world and nothing more. They did not have any affect when it came to the battles still fought in the astral sea or elemental chaos, nor did they care.
As for the most powerful of the three, nothing could compare to the mightiest primordials who are still a threat even while imprisoned or dead. Beyond that, I won't argue in circles. If you think primal spirits are more powerful than gods or primordials, that's fine, but the books don't share your view.
In the end, every source is a legend or myth. So we have to find the more consistent legends and myths to try and form a conclusion that might be closest to the truth. The primal spirits have very little support in this regard and the gods have a larger amount of support claiming they ended the war when they defeated the primordials.