| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1SonsofNorthWindJan 29, 2011 11:17:35 | I've played DnD on and off since the mid 80's, and I played the original Dark Sun. I've only recently developed an interest in looking at DnD once again, and am trying to understand 4rth edition a bit. I've got a 4rth Ed PHB and a DND Insider subscription. /me 1. I'm curious as to what classes and class options are considered canon in Dark Sun. I know Divine is out. Is Arcane wholly inhabited by the Defiler/Preserver dichotomy? Wizards clearly are... do Bards retain supernatural powers, or are their abiltiies all reskinned to be more like Warlords? Do Sorcerors exist? I've seen the Warlock SK Pact (which I think is brilliant on a number of levels), and presumably with Athas being cut off from the multiverse Infernal and Star Pact are out. There's a shattered Feywild... is fey pact in? Are the remnants of gods killed by primordials enough for vestige pacts? How does Arcane sit? 2. Bluntly, why defile? Back in the original Dark Sun psi, clerical magic, and wizardly magic had very different applications and you could well imagine that someone would give up a lot to control arcane power. Now, with wizards being only one member in the controller group, all with broadly comparable abilities, how is the lure of defiling magic explained? Why bother being an Arcane Controller when Psionic Controllers are as good if not better and psi is much more accessible? Was defiling massively more powerful earlier when Athas was lush, and those SK's who partook of it heavily then are still bloated with power from their gorging? Inquiring minds want to know. |
| #2ian.thomsonJan 29, 2011 11:52:20 | I recommend actually getting ahold of the 4e Dark Sun book, there have been some changes you don't seem to be aware of. Take the dawn war, and have the primordials win. That's why there isn't much contact with other planes in 4e DS, because the astral sea is pretty much empty. It's not that there's some special barrier around Athas (as there was when every setting was connected to every other setting, something that isn't the case anymore), there just isn't much outside of Athas. 1. Nothing is really restricted, except that the divine classes are "ask your DM and be prepared for him to say no" (it actually is possible to play divine, if the DM chooses to allow some of the suggested options). Beyond that, everything is allowed. Any arcane character is allowed to defile at any given time. 2e's Athasian Bards have been turned into a theme: Athasian Minstrel. Themes are things that added on in addition to classes. The bard class itself remains unchanged. If you want to play a 2e style Athasian bard, a rogue with the Athasian minstrel theme would be it. Infernal and star pact warlocks are still allowed: devils ducked into the grey/shadowfell before the astral sea was wrecked, and the far realms weren't affected. Fey pact is allowed. Vestiges are still around. 2. Well, for 4e, defiling actually means a fair amount of power (reroll attack and damage? After you made the bad rolls? Whenever you use a daily power? Sweet!). Also, wizards (arcanists in general) have a wider variety powers than psions (psionicists in general, too). Psions in particular are pretty much telekinetic or telepathic, no fire balls, no magic missiles, not much teleportation, etc... Despite the roles deal, the individual powers are actually still different enough that the classes are not truely interchangable. |
| #3SonsofNorthWindJan 29, 2011 22:26:57 | Thanks, all. I consider the first question fully answered. I guess I still don't see the added utility of magic over psionics - I found the arcane defilling at-will in an article onlime, and it seems decently balanced as it stands mechanically but not socially or environmentally. I get that there are slightly different emphases in wizard vs psion abilities (on a cursory scan, the former seems to have larger AoEs, the latter better hard controls), but their powers seem roughly equivalent to me in power, with psions pulling ahead on usability through the reliability of power points. If the two paths are mechanically roughly as equivalent and even draw on the 2 out of 3 of the same stats, it just seems unlikely that anyone would bother with arcane magic at all, especially if they weren't going to defile... but even purist individuals will still face the social stigma. "Everyone who figures you out loathes you" is a harsh downside. Maybe playing Deadlands soured me on that, though... Again, I'm new to both 4e and Dark Sun, so maybe I'm missing the overall picture. I certainly have a much harder time comparing powers between classes than I used to. But since the fluff was originally written with different mechanics in mind, I wonder if the new mechanics support the fluff. |
| #4mouthymercJan 30, 2011 8:39:17 | 2. Bluntly, why defile? Bluntly, because you want to play a defiler. It is a role-playing game. While you can play a character and make those choices based on mechanical benefits, that is really not the point. The fact that they are so similar these days means that you can play the game based on fluff or story choices which in my book makes it head and shoulders above the previous incarnation. |
| #5SonsofNorthWindJan 30, 2011 9:23:39 | Ermm... I have been unclear. I don't mean from a player perspective within a campaign, I mean from anyone's perspective within the game world. In a world where psionics are innate, relatively easy to find advanced training in, and broadly accepted, why would anyone go through the trouble of learning arcane magic, which is illegal to teach and practice (in a world where law breakers aren't let off lightly), hidden, and is not particularly better? It's not like learning arcane magic is a crime of passion... it just seems like the fluff written for an earlier version of the rules is persisting despite the loss of the rules that drove that fluff. I can see the persistence of SK Warlock/Templars because they have organizational protection, explicit SK license to use their abiliites, and a quick path to power. Wizards... not so much. There's an high cost if you're caught, a significant entry barrier compared to comparably effective alternatives, insignificant effectiveness benefits over legal alternatives, and to use your baseline class abilities you're required to carry evidence of your criminal activities around with you. Seems like people with a high enough intelligence to be effective wizards would realize it's a bad decision. |
| #6TectuktitlayJan 30, 2011 10:39:10 | Ermm... I have been unclear. Because, and I know this isn't represented mechanically in the 4E version of the game, defiling brings greater power faster. Psionics allows you to read minds, move objects from a distance, see the future or the past, observe others from afar, control the workings of your body in amazing ways, teleport in a limited manner, and so on. However, psionics uses your own inner power. It wears you out. The more you use it, the more it physically and mentally tires you. Again, I know this isn't represented mechanically in 4E, but it is part and parcel of Athasian lore. Elemental magic allows you to manipulate or conjure the element(s) in question. It allows for tremendously powerful effects, and doesn't tap into your own internal reserves. As with psionics it is much more limited in the types of effects allowed. In this case, you are limited to effects that fall within the purview of the element(s) accessible. However, you must bind yourself to tremendously powerful extraplanar beings though a lifelong pact. Spirit (primal) magic allows you to summon or communicate with primal spirits local to the area or summoned from afar. It allows for great control over various types of effects local to your current area. As with psionics and elemental magic, it doesn't utilize your own reserves, and its effects are more limited than arcane magic. As with elemental magic, spirit magic requires pacts with primal spirits of the land. Templars get essentially much of the same breadth and depth of power arcane casters get. However, in exchange for being able to use it legally in public, a templar must, like a primal or elemental character, bind themselves via a pact to a very powerful being. In the LORE, a templar, as with a preserver, elemental or primal caster, doesn't defile. They get their energy from elsewhere. In their case, it's via the elemental planes, though a conduit: their sorcerer-monarch. Arcane magic, on the other hand, allows you to create gigantic balls of fire, ice, lightning, and/or acid, or more. It allows you to turn whole groups of people invisible, or silent, or allow them to fly. It allows you to create huge walls of magical energy, or suck someones life force from their body. It allows you to conjure amber bands around someone, or create massive areas of magical webbing, or shoot multicolored rays of energy that each do something different. It allows you to manipulate space and time on potentially grand scales. It allows you to summon demons and devils and aberrations and a plethora of additional types of critters that other sources cannot. It can duplicate many of the effects of psionics, elemental, AND primal magics, as well as creating effects beyond any of those types of magic, all at the same time. Arcane casters (generally) get to do all of this and more without being bound to another being, but they must carefully pick and choose what effects they have access to at any given time based on what information and materials they are carrying on them, and what they have studied rather than what is innate to their being or requested from others. Instead, all they require is that living things, generally plants, be nearby. Preservers have to slowly and carefully tap into that life energy to ensure they don't injure or kill the lives they are taking from. Defilers get access to that energy much faster, but kill or seriously injure the lives they are tapping in the process. Once more, I know that this is not well-represented in 4E, but on Athas this is the lore. This is the fluff. This is how it is. This is why arcane casters continue to exist. Between tremendous access to wildly varied effects and the lack of binding their service to others forever, arcane magic is tremendously appealing to certain types of individuals. Within the game world, arcane magic IS in fact more powerful and sweeping than psionics. It does a whole helluva lot more. Psionics are much more personal in terms of effects, whereas arcane and other types of MAGIC are much more manipulative of the world beyond the user. Sure, you can utilize psionics to affect the world beyond to great degrees. Sure, you are only limited by your own personal reserve of internal energy and bound to no one. But you simply do not have the same kind of dramatically sweeping effects magic has...any type of magic, not merely arcane magic. |
| #7Alex_Jan 30, 2011 11:20:33 | It's easy to see why the SK's use it. It's impossible to become a Dragon without using arcane magic. Their Templars and other followers use it because it would be silly to outright deny themselves a tool they could use to wage war, facilititate their lifestyle, and uncover even more fonts of power. As to why other people in society would want to practice arcane magic? Well, the overwhelming majority *don't* want to practice arcane magic. Those that do take the risk do so for a variety of reasons... Some people see the power wielded by the SKs and Templars and want it for themselves, and figure that arcane magic is the way to get it. Some people might want to just spread access to arcane magic it so that the SK and Templars don't have exclusive access to it as a matter of principle. Some might have been taught by their parents/mentor, who was taught by their parents/mentor, who was taught by their parent/mentor, and are continuing the tradition out of feelings of respect, tradition, or belief that the knowledge is obviously important must be preserved. Some might be obssessed with the fact that it's forbidden and find satisfaction in mastering things not many people understand. Some might have tried Psionic and/or Primal magic and found that they didn't have the aptitude for it. Arcane magic is pursued as an aleternative because it doesn't require you to bring your body, mind, and soul into harmony or require you to deal with nature spirits. In the case of Warlocks, Sorcerers, and some Bards you already have the power to work arcane magic, and probably did so without years of studying/training. And more I haven't even thought of. The reasons are many, but all individuals that actively dabble in the arcane arts also share on thing in common: they believe that *they* can get away with it. The existince of the Veiled Alliance and stories of the dangers of rogue arcanists is evidence in itself that not every arcane spellcaster is automaticaly/inevitably ousted and killed. I have a harder time trying to understand why people would take up the life of an adventurer in Dark Sun. As if it weren't a deadly enough occupation in a world where there aren't things like murderous psychic cacti dotting the landscape. |
| #8Alex_Jan 30, 2011 12:25:26 | Between the escaped slaves, the wrongly-or-rightly accused who decide to flee the city rather than face trial, and the native wastelanders, adventurers aren't hard to explain. The crappy circumstances most people in DS find themselves in are a matter of circumstance and they make decisions that put them between a rock and a hard place. Adventurers are generally more inclined to what any other sane individual would consider suicidal behavior. Not many of them find a map that says, "here be the dark ruins of the evil lord of Shadows" and decide to head in to do something about it. You think any one else but the PCs is going to gather a party of four- composed of an Elven thief, a former slave, a Halfling savage, and a wizard- and barge into the keep of a SK to face them? Screw that. I have to manage to scrounge up enough water to survive the dry(er) seasons. |
| #9SonsofNorthWindJan 30, 2011 15:40:12 | Tectuktitlay - that's a nice explanation, and the way I would explain it narratively. I do think it goes against 4e, though (where even Divine characters are no longer dependent upon Divine approval for their power any more once they are invested). Alex - I guess psi requires you to bring your mind/body/soul into harmony, but there is also still the Wilder theme/approach in 4e.
If this is the case, then this is another change from the previous Dark Sun, where everyone in point of fact DID have psionic talent. You could train it or let it languish, just like any other quality you had, but there was not an idea that psionics was something that some people had and others didn't. I would describe the gap between psionics and wizardry in 2e as huge. Not that one was universally more powerful than the other (I'm looking at you, crazy versatile psychometabolists), but psionics overall was quite limited in the kind and power of effects it had on tap, even without taking into account the limited access outside of one's main discipline for a particular psionicist. Direct damage, especially AoE damage, was pretty limited for the overwhelming majority of 2e psionicists, and while the three-point contact system was in place most of the telepathic abilities were in fact weaker than their magical counterparts so it had crappy disables as well. In 3e the distinction narrowed significantly, and with the loss of most out of combat applications of magic and psi in 4e the differences are really quite slim. |
| #10SonsofNorthWindJan 30, 2011 17:09:38 | Having enough psionic talent to be meaningfully cultivable --not to mention having the money to study it-- has always been rare. I agree on the money, although it's likely cheaper than magic. Psionics do require time to practice, which is hard to come by in a subsistence world, but can be discovered on their own with sufficient dedication - however most do seek training to speed their Way, and significant numbers of merchant and noble classes receive formal education in psionics as a matter of course. Wizardly magic principles essentially cannot be discovered on their own in DnD, have to be practiced in secret which limits open sharing of information, and has additional acquisition costs for acquiring new contraband spells if you don't want your abilities to be stuck at Sleep and Magic Missile. If by "enough psionic talent" you mean high stats in the right abilities, that's true, but is also true for all classes, especially in 2e - not many are strong enough to be meaningfully effective warriors (oh, percentile strength, how I don't miss you), smart enough to be effective wizards (oh, percentile failure chance to learn new spells, how I don't miss you), etc. The Dark Sun books are also very clear that while everyone possesses the innate ability for psionics, becoming a psionicist requires great dedication (the first page of The Will and The Way expresses this several times), which isn't particularly common in anyone regardless of stats. However, if you meant that there is an intrinsic midicholorian-like psionic aptitude separate from the preceding, that is incorrect, at least for 2e Athas - I can't speak for 4e, I don't have the book. In 2e, anyone could walk the Way, and in an edition where almost every non-human class had strict level limits on how high they could rise in a class (even half-giants, presumably the biggest and baddest of all races, couldn't reach fighter 20), every race could achieve unlimited advancement in psionics. While in 4e, wizards and psions share the same primary stat and a secondary stat, so anyone who could be an effective wizard could also be an effective psion, without the legal hassle and additional $$$. |
| #11MyztekJan 30, 2011 17:47:53 | If you want game mechanics that provide a reason why people would find arcane magic attractive, might I suggest: * Deny (most?) rituals to the psionic classes. Make most of them 'arcane only'. * In 4E, the classes are balanced. As a DM, you can unbalance them. Give arcanists and edge. I like the idea that all implements and weapons in the hands of an arcane character are treated as if they were the next higher plus version of the item, while (if 6th level or higher) it is treated as the next lower plus version in the hands of other PCs. This also meets the goal of making Athas more deadly. As an example, an 11th level +3 magic orb is treated as a 16th level +4 orb in the hands of a wizard, but only a 6th level +2 orb in the hands of a psion. * If you have an arcane PC in your game, just look for non-combat opportunities to make arcane power important. For example, if the PCs are under Tyr in some ancient dungeon, make all of the chests wizard locked and only openable by arcane beings. If there are no arcane PCs in your party, have fewer of these 'arcane only' non-combat mechanics, but have some and require the PCs to figure out where they can find the arcane power they need to get past the challenge. * Up the power of defiling. If you defile before your first roll, your critical range increases by 1. Or, you can increase the burst or blast size by 1 with defiling. Or, reduce resistances by 5 / tier by defiling before you roll the attack. |
| #12ian.thomsonJan 30, 2011 19:29:53 | Having enough psionic talent to be meaningfully cultivable --not to mention having the money to study it-- has always been rare. Wizards don't have to buy spells anymore, 4e assumes they're capable of researching them by some other means. It's rituals that cost money, but it's not just arcanists that use them. I've actually made a hybrid psion/wizard before, and they are not the same by any means. Seriously, psions get almost no explosions, wizards get almost nothing but explosions. Want to play Tim the Enchanter? Go for wizard, you'll be completely disappointed with psion. Want to play Ben Kenobi? play psion, you'll be avoiding most of your powers as a wizard. Since psionics are common, defence against psionics is common as well. People are more likely to recognize someone being psionically mind controlled, but they wouldn't necessarily recognize if someone's been charmed. Psions also don't get fireballs or magic missles, or many of the other flashy effects that wizards get. Anti-psion fields would be more commonly established, anti-magic fields would not. It's kinda like asking "why carry 100 yen or pesos when you could carry a dollar or two cans of soda?" They're all roughly the same in value, but each has its own uses. |
| #13big_goonJan 30, 2011 21:23:33 | I'd like to point out that the majority of the most-powerful-sorcerers-on-Athas are actually both Arcane and Psionic users. The Sorcerer-Kings and Rajaat were all masters of both defiling magics and the Way. Sadira, on the contrary, was only a sorceress and was nearly killed for her lack of Psionic abilities. That used to be because the only way to combat psionics was with psionics (or... just kill the psionics user before he/she can react). 4e mechanics changed all of this. |
| #14khorne37Jan 31, 2011 12:07:57 | That is the biggest bummer about 4e Dark Sun is the loss of the dual class wizard psion which was what was needed to become an avagion or a dragon and also unlocked that additional power source of mixed psionic power and arcane magic fueled by giant obsidian orbs and would raise manned castles in the middle of no where, cause major earthquakes and generally kick a lot of butt. |
| #15xlorep_darkhelmJan 31, 2011 13:10:22 | That is the biggest bummer about 4e Dark Sun is the loss of the dual class wizard psion which was what was needed to become an avagion or a dragon and also unlocked that additional power source of mixed psionic power and arcane magic fueled by giant obsidian orbs and would raise manned castles in the middle of no where, cause major earthquakes and generally kick a lot of butt. Potentially able to be provided with a Hybrid Wizard/Psion, or really potentially any Hybrid arcane/psionic combination. |
| #16khorne37Jan 31, 2011 13:12:33 | But the combo of psionic magic is gone. |
| #17ian.thomsonJan 31, 2011 13:56:28 | Ain't there some paragon stuff that lets you use power points to recover arcane powers, and defile to gain power points? Really, it's just the psionic requirement to become a Dragon King or Avangion. |
| #18chaosfangJan 31, 2011 21:02:22 | I'd like to point out that the majority of the most-powerful-sorcerers-on-Athas are actually both Arcane and Psionic users. The Sorcerer-Kings and Rajaat were all masters of both defiling magics and the Way. Paragon feat that allows Psionic characters to use Arcane Defiling, coupled with Defiling Master PP, or Arcane class with Psionic powers. That's pretty much all you need to get that, no need for convoluted feat/power/item synergy for the whole thing to work. That is the biggest bummer about 4e Dark Sun is the loss of the dual class wizard psion which was what was needed to become an avagion or a dragon and also unlocked that additional power source of mixed psionic power and arcane magic fueled by giant obsidian orbs and would raise manned castles in the middle of no where, cause major earthquakes and generally kick a lot of butt. Dual class Wizard Psion = Wizard Psion hybrid. Avagion or Dragon = epic destiny. Giant obsidian orbs = fluff. Raising manned castles, causing major earthquakes = rituals. Generally kick a lot of butt = player character. Done. |