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Challenge too hard?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
garwjenk
Jan 17, 2012 12:17:05 Hey guys, I run a game of Dark Sun with 3 PCs, currently at lvl 1. I want to throw a solo challenge at them. Is the Mul Gladiator lv4 elite, too strong or is that ok? I don't have a huge amount of experience with 4e and I am trying to gauge what monsters I can throw at them without neutering the monsters.

oh, btw, they are a party of 3, a warden, barbarian, and thief.

Also, any advice on how to manage encounters for a party of 2 strikers and a defender, would be very appreciated.
#2
DontEatRawHagis
Jan 17, 2012 19:43:28 I actually ran into this problem. My players were lvl 1 Warlock, Rogue, and Ardent. I meant the encounter to be unwinnable, the players fought mainly minions with the Human Dune Trader as the leader, once the Dune Trader hit bloodied I brought in the Mul Gladiator to put the favor on my side. The players wasted all of their dailies on him, with only one actually hitting.

I suggest make the Mul easier to hit and make him dish out less damage. Add in a few environmental hazards for the players to utilize against him.

General rule of Thumb for a 3 person party, never use an enemy more than 2 levels higher. Usually you will have to fudge the numbers a bit.

With such a small party your XP Budget won't allow for a lot of enemies for you to use. Strikers are good at taking out high health enemies(Brutes and Soldiers) where as the defender will be good at taking hits(Lurkers and Skirmishers).

Minions are a good counter to strikers as the strikers' high damage rolls are useless against them since they go down in one hit. With such a small number of players pad out every couple of encounters with Minions so they don't feel like they're going up against small groups. In my next session I am actually putting them up against a raiding party of halflings, but a good number of them are going to be minions.
#3
garwjenk
Jan 18, 2012 10:44:51 Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. I think I have reached the decison to add a companion character in as a leader role. Hopefuly that will let the encounters be more diverse and interesting.
#4
BRJN
Jan 21, 2012 20:48:42 You can put Skill Challenges into the fights as well. A few toughies (say, a Templar's guards) plus the 'Go To Ground' challenge from DSCS gives the group a way to hide in the slums, with a fight if they can't roll dice or use Aid Another much.

Also think about scenarios where the goal is NOT 'kill everything in the room'. Your thief can steal, the barbarian smashes stuff, what skills does a Warden get?, use Insight to figure out the bribe-able guard is lying to you, group Endurance check to wade through something slimy on the way into a secret entrance.

One of the most significant fights I ever had in LFR was to close an Abyssal portal. My group did so in record time, and I put in the Intimidate check that locked it shut (rolled a CRIT) ... with two of my friends on the wrong side. Afterwards I was thinking about an honorable suicide. But without the non-combat part, it would have been just another fight.
#5
RalofTyr
Feb 11, 2012 10:53:39 Dark Sun's not an easy world.
#6
dreamernaut
Feb 12, 2012 6:31:15 Personally I will occasionally create encounters that really challenge the players and requires a great deal of effort, cooperation and ingenuity to surpass. In some cases it makes sense from a story telling standpoint or in some instances it's just to make the players and their PCs sweat a little.

However this is something I will really only do with players I have a good deal of experience with and are more or less well coordinated. However I will usually give them an possible out, because my intention of upping the challenge is not to kill the players. It's all for fun after all. An example of a way out. Maybe the parties nemesis has plans for the party that does not include killing them and they wake up in a cell. Or maybe the opponent instead of killing the party, the opponent 'leans' on the party to get them to further his interests. Or maybe something happens that simply gives the party that chance to run like their pants were on fire. At other times the parties goal might not be to trounce the opponent, but maybe accomplish some other task while trying to stay clear of the opponents attacks.
#7
wyld_mutation
Feb 13, 2012 14:36:21 A level 4 might be statistically too strong even for a solo against level 1's. Especialy only three of them with no leader. Reducing statistics a little will be the best way to handle it. OR apply the rules for making a solo from the monster manual to a level one or two enemy. Remember that enemies are balanced assuming that there is a party of 4.

As for party composition: Encourage multiclassing or someone choosing a leader theme. Both are strong ways to gain access to some leadership characeristics. And remember not to throw more than they can handle, it will be better to make a fight too easy than too hard. You can always throw in impromptu reinforcements in the former case, not so in the latter.

Keep in mind also that you party is "one short" and plan accordingly. If it gets too hard you can add leader as a follower to help out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 garwjenk Jan 17, 2012 12:17:05	Hey guys, I run a game of Dark Sun with 3 PCs, currently at lvl 1. I want to throw a solo challenge at them. Is the Mul Gladiator lv4 elite, too strong or is that ok? I don't have a huge amount of experience with 4e and I am trying to gauge what monsters I can throw at them without neutering the monsters. oh, btw, they are a party of 3, a warden, barbarian, and thief. Also, any advice on how to manage encounters for a party of 2 strikers and a defender, would be very appreciated.
#2 DontEatRawHagis Jan 17, 2012 19:43:28	I actually ran into this problem. My players were lvl 1 Warlock, Rogue, and Ardent. I meant the encounter to be unwinnable, the players fought mainly minions with the Human Dune Trader as the leader, once the Dune Trader hit bloodied I brought in the Mul Gladiator to put the favor on my side. The players wasted all of their dailies on him, with only one actually hitting. I suggest make the Mul easier to hit and make him dish out less damage. Add in a few environmental hazards for the players to utilize against him. General rule of Thumb for a 3 person party, never use an enemy more than 2 levels higher. Usually you will have to fudge the numbers a bit. With such a small party your XP Budget won't allow for a lot of enemies for you to use. Strikers are good at taking out high health enemies(Brutes and Soldiers) where as the defender will be good at taking hits(Lurkers and Skirmishers). Minions are a good counter to strikers as the strikers' high damage rolls are useless against them since they go down in one hit. With such a small number of players pad out every couple of encounters with Minions so they don't feel like they're going up against small groups. In my next session I am actually putting them up against a raiding party of halflings, but a good number of them are going to be minions.
#3 garwjenk Jan 18, 2012 10:44:51	Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. I think I have reached the decison to add a companion character in as a leader role. Hopefuly that will let the encounters be more diverse and interesting.
#4 BRJN Jan 21, 2012 20:48:42	You can put Skill Challenges into the fights as well. A few toughies (say, a Templar's guards) plus the 'Go To Ground' challenge from DSCS gives the group a way to hide in the slums, with a fight if they can't roll dice or use Aid Another much. Also think about scenarios where the goal is NOT 'kill everything in the room'. Your thief can steal, the barbarian smashes stuff, what skills does a Warden get?, use Insight to figure out the bribe-able guard is lying to you, group Endurance check to wade through something slimy on the way into a secret entrance. One of the most significant fights I ever had in LFR was to close an Abyssal portal. My group did so in record time, and I put in the Intimidate check that locked it shut (rolled a CRIT) ... with two of my friends on the wrong side. Afterwards I was thinking about an honorable suicide. But without the non-combat part, it would have been just another fight.
#5 RalofTyr Feb 11, 2012 10:53:39	Dark Sun's not an easy world.
#6 dreamernaut Feb 12, 2012 6:31:15	Personally I will occasionally create encounters that really challenge the players and requires a great deal of effort, cooperation and ingenuity to surpass. In some cases it makes sense from a story telling standpoint or in some instances it's just to make the players and their PCs sweat a little. However this is something I will really only do with players I have a good deal of experience with and are more or less well coordinated. However I will usually give them an possible out, because my intention of upping the challenge is not to kill the players. It's all for fun after all. An example of a way out. Maybe the parties nemesis has plans for the party that does not include killing them and they wake up in a cell. Or maybe the opponent instead of killing the party, the opponent 'leans' on the party to get them to further his interests. Or maybe something happens that simply gives the party that chance to run like their pants were on fire. At other times the parties goal might not be to trounce the opponent, but maybe accomplish some other task while trying to stay clear of the opponents attacks.
#7 wyld_mutation Feb 13, 2012 14:36:21	A level 4 might be statistically too strong even for a solo against level 1's. Especialy only three of them with no leader. Reducing statistics a little will be the best way to handle it. OR apply the rules for making a solo from the monster manual to a level one or two enemy. Remember that enemies are balanced assuming that there is a party of 4. As for party composition: Encourage multiclassing or someone choosing a leader theme. Both are strong ways to gain access to some leadership characeristics. And remember not to throw more than they can handle, it will be better to make a fight too easy than too hard. You can always throw in impromptu reinforcements in the former case, not so in the latter. Keep in mind also that you party is "one short" and plan accordingly. If it gets too hard you can add leader as a follower to help out.