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Character Theme?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Ahglock
Aug 24, 2010 15:24:26 This character theme thing is new to me, and I have a question. Can any class take any theme they want, like a wizard minstrel?

The minstrel default power is poisoned strike. It is a martial weapon based attack for melee or range and uses primary ability vs AC. So if you are a wizard you are swining your dagger based off your intelligence?

Sorry it just seems weird to me, and I am having trouble wrapping my mind around what I think I am reading.

So if you had a wizard minstrel, unwelcome guest who used an AP for a fireball spell everyone hit would be immobilized and grant combat advantage til the end of the wizards next turn. That is kind of cool.

Normally I'd think about going with a path that fits more directly, but having a few non arcane magic based attacks seems like a good idea in this setting.
#2
smeej
Aug 24, 2010 15:27:01 Yep, all theme powers key off your Primary Ability, so you can be a wizard gladiator who uses Intelligence for his melee gladiator attacks.
#3
Ahglock
Aug 24, 2010 15:38:28 Awesome, thanks.
#4
CameraObscura83
Aug 24, 2010 19:26:26 I have another question about themes. Do you automatically gain the lvl 1 theme power or does it replace one of your starting powers. and your theme can run counter to your class power type? ( just wanting to clarify this, it seems odd to me that you could)

thanks in advance!
#5
rollawaythestone
Aug 24, 2010 19:32:15 The Lvl 1 theme power is in addition to any other powers you may receive from your class. You can choose any Theme that your DM allows. This can run counter to your power source.

An Elemental Priest could be a tough dwarven Fighter who reveres the elemental earth. Or a Wizard Gadiator who was forced to fight as a slave. Etc.

I do not know, however, whether it is okay to retrain out your Lvl 1 Theme encounter power for another Lvl 1 encounter power from your class.
#6
flip
Aug 24, 2010 19:46:15

I do not know, however, whether it is okay to retrain out your Lvl 1 Theme encounter power for another Lvl 1 encounter power from your class.

No more so than it's okay to train away your racial power in exchange for another class power.

In other words: nope. It's something you get for having the theme, not a bonus power slot.
#7
Nyarlathotep
Aug 24, 2010 19:50:39 You can take any theme you want. Some themes fit certain classes better than others. A Wizard is probably going to find the Veiled Alliance theme more useful than the Gladiator theme, but if a wizard wants to be a gladiator then more power to him. There's interesting back story potential there.

And yes, you get the 1st level power 'for free' but you have to trade out for the subsequent powers.
#8
CameraObscura83
Aug 24, 2010 19:51:39 on a side note i think this is now my favorite setting.... aside from Dragonlance ( but hey what can you do lol)
#9
Ahglock
Aug 24, 2010 23:31:00
You can take any theme you want. Some themes fit certain classes better than others. A Wizard is probably going to find the Veiled Alliance theme more useful than the Gladiator theme, but if a wizard wants to be a gladiator then more power to him. There's interesting back story potential there.

And yes, you get the 1st level power 'for free' but you have to trade out for the subsequent powers.

While I'd normally agree in a setting where using arcane magic means the lynch mob is formed taking alternate themes with access to non-arcane powers allows you to do a few things in public and not get burned at the stake. Yeah veiled alliance gives the most direct benefit especially with the paragon path, but having a martial or psioic power or 3 can come in handy.

It really depends on the DM and how much he lets you get away with when using bluff. Personally I'd think something like evards tentacles would be hard to sell as psioic.
#10
rothe
Aug 25, 2010 1:13:07 As for using weird ability scores for weapon attacks, you could just have it be a subtle magic influence on top of good training. The wizard would increase his strength or accuracy for just the one strike and time it well - they cannot do it more than once or twice per fight anyway.
#11
Palladinae
Aug 25, 2010 8:32:39 Another questiom: some themes require other theme for example Unwelcome Guest requires Athasian Minstrel theme. Is it allowed to have more than one? Even so, how does it work?
#12
Nyarlathotep
Aug 25, 2010 9:09:48
Another questiom: some themes require other theme for example Unwelcome Guest requires Athasian Minstrel theme. Is it allowed to have more than one? Even so, how does it work?

Unwelcome Guest is a paragon path not a theme, and those are probably what you are looking at. Some Paragon paths have a theme requirement in the same way as some other paragon paths from other books have class or race requirements.
#13
Palladinae
Aug 25, 2010 9:33:40 Ok, thanks very much!
#14
FlashbackJon
Aug 25, 2010 10:17:31 Specifically, each theme has two associated paragon paths.
#15
Talcoram_Cyndar
Aug 25, 2010 12:47:43 The question I have is does taking a theme grant the PC the Theme's Power Source? For example, if I have a Barbarian (Primal) and take the Gladiator Theme (Martial) am I now considered a Martial character for purposes of feat and PP requirements?

I have read the section on Themes several times and haven't found anything difinitive, unless I am blind.

thanks-
-TC
#16
big_goon
Aug 25, 2010 12:50:17
The question I have is does taking a theme grant the PC the Theme's Power Source? For example, if I have a Barbarian (Primal) and take the Gladiator Theme (Martial) am I now considered a Martial character for purposes of feat and PP requirements?

Yes. So long as you have at least one power of that particular power source.
#17
Duskweaver
Aug 25, 2010 13:24:40
The question I have is does taking a theme grant the PC the Theme's Power Source? For example, if I have a Barbarian (Primal) and take the Gladiator Theme (Martial) am I now considered a Martial character for purposes of feat and PP requirements?

If the feat or PP has the prerequisite "martial power source", then you qualify. If it has the prerequisite "any martial class", then you do not. Themes are not classes.
#18
FlashbackJon
Aug 25, 2010 13:31:39
If the feat or PP has the prerequisite "martial power source", then you qualify. If it has the prerequisite "any martial class", then you do not. Themes are not classes.

Good catch! That might've slipped by my attentions.
#19
Nyarlathotep
Aug 25, 2010 14:19:03
Specifically, each theme has two associated paragon paths.

Yes and no. I'd bet that was the original intent, but a handful of the theme related PPs have broader requirements than that. I.e. one of the Gladiator ones (I am at work, thus no books, and I forget the name) has the requirement Gladiator Theme OR fighter class. And one of the Templar ones (Master Defiler, I think) requires you to be a member of an Arcane Class rather than having the Templar theme. Again I don't have it handy so it might simply be that the character must have access to defiling instead, but either way the Templar theme isn't actually a prerequisite, its just lumped in with the templar because it fits thematically. That's my guess for the reason, anyway.

And it just occured to me that if the Master Defiler has the requirment I remember it having, then it is possible to make a Templar who can NOT take the Master Defiler PP, for the very reasons you guys were just discussing. It's going to drive me nuts until I get home, now.

#20
FlashbackJon
Aug 25, 2010 14:58:47 I was going to put in the "some have other prerequisites" but I forgot that some didn't even require the theme.

But you're right: it's completely feasible to make a Templar that cannot be a Master Defiler. Any non-arcane class with the Templar theme must take either the level 5 or level 9 Templar power (or an arcane multiclass powerswap feat) to be eligible for Master Defiler.

Yep. Master Defiler and Master Preserver are the only two that have no theme-related requirement (although several others can be obtained from your class choice).
#21
beej_silver
Aug 27, 2010 6:23:11 So I finally got my DS CS through Amazon this morning. It's a week earlier than I expected it to be, especially given our country's track record, but I'm not complaining.

On the issue of themes, my biggest question is this: How would a class that has the psionic aumentation class feature interact with the higher-level encounter attack powers of their chosen theme? Ie, if my battlemind gladiator reaches level 7 and decides to get Murderous Rampage, how would it work?
#22
mouthymerc
Aug 27, 2010 7:02:05
Ie, if my battlemind gladiator reaches level 7 and decides to get Murderous Rampage, how would it work?

Instead of choosing the encounter power from your battlemind choices you would choose the gladiator encounter power. Basically a theme gives you more powers to choose from.

#23
mastyrial
Aug 27, 2010 7:27:58 This topic is already discussed here.
#24
beej_silver
Aug 27, 2010 7:46:33 @moutherc: I understand that, except battleminds don't have (encounter) attack powers. Still, thanks for the reply.

@Mastyrial: Thanks for the link. It should have occured to me to check CharOp. Still, I suppose it's still a contested topic. I might go with "get an encounter (or swap at paragon-epic) by giving up Power points you would have gained for this level" kind of deal for my games.
#25
mouthymerc
Aug 27, 2010 8:12:45
@moutherc: I understand that, except battleminds don't have (encounter) attack powers. Still, thanks for the reply.

Okay, I fail to see what this issue is here and why it is contested. At 7th level the battlemind can choose from a selection of augmentable at-wills. These are his encounter powers. If he wishes he can choose the gladiator encounter instead. What is the issue here?
#26
beej_silver
Aug 27, 2010 8:26:46 I believe the issue is whether you are supposed to lose power points for taking an encounter power or not. By RAW you shouldn't, but there are those who do not find that fair. Some say that you can't choose an encounter power at all if you are an augment class, because an at-will is not an encounter. And then there's also the issue of swapping - augment classes need to swap out a lower-level at-will to gain a level 7 power. Does that also apply?

Basically, they didn't mention how to handle it in the book. So until an official update/word of wotc employer comes out, I think there will be many interpretations, with your interpretation included amongst the possible rulings, mouthymerc.
#27
mouthymerc
Aug 27, 2010 15:51:06
I believe the issue is whether you are supposed to lose power points for taking an encounter power or not. By RAW you shouldn't, but there are those who do not find that fair. Some say that you can't choose an encounter power at all if you are an augment class, because an at-will is not an encounter. And then there's also the issue of swapping - augment classes need to swap out a lower-level at-will to gain a level 7 power. Does that also apply?

Basically, they didn't mention how to handle it in the book. So until an official update/word of wotc employer comes out, I think there will be many interpretations, with your interpretation included amongst the possible rulings, mouthymerc.

Hmm thanks. Seems pretty straight forward to me, but hey, whatever. If you're caught up in that mess then I can see why you're confused. I guess for now you just need to do whatever works best for your group.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Ahglock Aug 24, 2010 15:24:26	This character theme thing is new to me, and I have a question. Can any class take any theme they want, like a wizard minstrel? The minstrel default power is poisoned strike. It is a martial weapon based attack for melee or range and uses primary ability vs AC. So if you are a wizard you are swining your dagger based off your intelligence? Sorry it just seems weird to me, and I am having trouble wrapping my mind around what I think I am reading. So if you had a wizard minstrel, unwelcome guest who used an AP for a fireball spell everyone hit would be immobilized and grant combat advantage til the end of the wizards next turn. That is kind of cool. Normally I'd think about going with a path that fits more directly, but having a few non arcane magic based attacks seems like a good idea in this setting.
#2 smeej Aug 24, 2010 15:27:01	Yep, all theme powers key off your Primary Ability, so you can be a wizard gladiator who uses Intelligence for his melee gladiator attacks.
#3 Ahglock Aug 24, 2010 15:38:28	Awesome, thanks.
#4 CameraObscura83 Aug 24, 2010 19:26:26	I have another question about themes. Do you automatically gain the lvl 1 theme power or does it replace one of your starting powers. and your theme can run counter to your class power type? ( just wanting to clarify this, it seems odd to me that you could) thanks in advance!
#5 rollawaythestone Aug 24, 2010 19:32:15	The Lvl 1 theme power is in addition to any other powers you may receive from your class. You can choose any Theme that your DM allows. This can run counter to your power source. An Elemental Priest could be a tough dwarven Fighter who reveres the elemental earth. Or a Wizard Gadiator who was forced to fight as a slave. Etc. I do not know, however, whether it is okay to retrain out your Lvl 1 Theme encounter power for another Lvl 1 encounter power from your class.
#6 flip Aug 24, 2010 19:46:15	I do not know, however, whether it is okay to retrain out your Lvl 1 Theme encounter power for another Lvl 1 encounter power from your class. No more so than it's okay to train away your racial power in exchange for another class power. In other words: nope. It's something you get for having the theme, not a bonus power slot.
#7 Nyarlathotep Aug 24, 2010 19:50:39	You can take any theme you want. Some themes fit certain classes better than others. A Wizard is probably going to find the Veiled Alliance theme more useful than the Gladiator theme, but if a wizard wants to be a gladiator then more power to him. There's interesting back story potential there. And yes, you get the 1st level power 'for free' but you have to trade out for the subsequent powers.
#8 CameraObscura83 Aug 24, 2010 19:51:39	on a side note i think this is now my favorite setting.... aside from Dragonlance ( but hey what can you do lol)
#9 Ahglock Aug 24, 2010 23:31:00	You can take any theme you want. Some themes fit certain classes better than others. A Wizard is probably going to find the Veiled Alliance theme more useful than the Gladiator theme, but if a wizard wants to be a gladiator then more power to him. There's interesting back story potential there. And yes, you get the 1st level power 'for free' but you have to trade out for the subsequent powers. While I'd normally agree in a setting where using arcane magic means the lynch mob is formed taking alternate themes with access to non-arcane powers allows you to do a few things in public and not get burned at the stake. Yeah veiled alliance gives the most direct benefit especially with the paragon path, but having a martial or psioic power or 3 can come in handy. It really depends on the DM and how much he lets you get away with when using bluff. Personally I'd think something like evards tentacles would be hard to sell as psioic.
#10 rothe Aug 25, 2010 1:13:07	As for using weird ability scores for weapon attacks, you could just have it be a subtle magic influence on top of good training. The wizard would increase his strength or accuracy for just the one strike and time it well - they cannot do it more than once or twice per fight anyway.
#11 Palladinae Aug 25, 2010 8:32:39	Another questiom: some themes require other theme for example Unwelcome Guest requires Athasian Minstrel theme. Is it allowed to have more than one? Even so, how does it work?
#12 Nyarlathotep Aug 25, 2010 9:09:48	Another questiom: some themes require other theme for example Unwelcome Guest requires Athasian Minstrel theme. Is it allowed to have more than one? Even so, how does it work? Unwelcome Guest is a paragon path not a theme, and those are probably what you are looking at. Some Paragon paths have a theme requirement in the same way as some other paragon paths from other books have class or race requirements.
#13 Palladinae Aug 25, 2010 9:33:40	Ok, thanks very much!
#14 FlashbackJon Aug 25, 2010 10:17:31	Specifically, each theme has two associated paragon paths.
#15 Talcoram_Cyndar Aug 25, 2010 12:47:43	The question I have is does taking a theme grant the PC the Theme's Power Source? For example, if I have a Barbarian (Primal) and take the Gladiator Theme (Martial) am I now considered a Martial character for purposes of feat and PP requirements? I have read the section on Themes several times and haven't found anything difinitive, unless I am blind. thanks- -TC
#16 big_goon Aug 25, 2010 12:50:17	The question I have is does taking a theme grant the PC the Theme's Power Source? For example, if I have a Barbarian (Primal) and take the Gladiator Theme (Martial) am I now considered a Martial character for purposes of feat and PP requirements? Yes. So long as you have at least one power of that particular power source.
#17 Duskweaver Aug 25, 2010 13:24:40	The question I have is does taking a theme grant the PC the Theme's Power Source? For example, if I have a Barbarian (Primal) and take the Gladiator Theme (Martial) am I now considered a Martial character for purposes of feat and PP requirements? If the feat or PP has the prerequisite "martial power source", then you qualify. If it has the prerequisite "any martial class", then you do not. Themes are not classes.
#18 FlashbackJon Aug 25, 2010 13:31:39	If the feat or PP has the prerequisite "martial power source", then you qualify. If it has the prerequisite "any martial class", then you do not. Themes are not classes. Good catch! That might've slipped by my attentions.
#19 Nyarlathotep Aug 25, 2010 14:19:03	Specifically, each theme has two associated paragon paths. Yes and no. I'd bet that was the original intent, but a handful of the theme related PPs have broader requirements than that. I.e. one of the Gladiator ones (I am at work, thus no books, and I forget the name) has the requirement Gladiator Theme OR fighter class. And one of the Templar ones (Master Defiler, I think) requires you to be a member of an Arcane Class rather than having the Templar theme. Again I don't have it handy so it might simply be that the character must have access to defiling instead, but either way the Templar theme isn't actually a prerequisite, its just lumped in with the templar because it fits thematically. That's my guess for the reason, anyway. And it just occured to me that if the Master Defiler has the requirment I remember it having, then it is possible to make a Templar who can NOT take the Master Defiler PP, for the very reasons you guys were just discussing. It's going to drive me nuts until I get home, now.
#20 FlashbackJon Aug 25, 2010 14:58:47	I was going to put in the "some have other prerequisites" but I forgot that some didn't even require the theme. But you're right: it's completely feasible to make a Templar that cannot be a Master Defiler. Any non-arcane class with the Templar theme must take either the level 5 or level 9 Templar power (or an arcane multiclass powerswap feat) to be eligible for Master Defiler. Yep. Master Defiler and Master Preserver are the only two that have no theme-related requirement (although several others can be obtained from your class choice).
#21 beej_silver Aug 27, 2010 6:23:11	So I finally got my DS CS through Amazon this morning. It's a week earlier than I expected it to be, especially given our country's track record, but I'm not complaining. On the issue of themes, my biggest question is this: How would a class that has the psionic aumentation class feature interact with the higher-level encounter attack powers of their chosen theme? Ie, if my battlemind gladiator reaches level 7 and decides to get Murderous Rampage, how would it work?
#22 mouthymerc Aug 27, 2010 7:02:05	Ie, if my battlemind gladiator reaches level 7 and decides to get Murderous Rampage, how would it work? Instead of choosing the encounter power from your battlemind choices you would choose the gladiator encounter power. Basically a theme gives you more powers to choose from.
#23 mastyrial Aug 27, 2010 7:27:58	This topic is already discussed here.
#24 beej_silver Aug 27, 2010 7:46:33	@moutherc: I understand that, except battleminds don't have (encounter) attack powers. Still, thanks for the reply. @Mastyrial: Thanks for the link. It should have occured to me to check CharOp. Still, I suppose it's still a contested topic. I might go with "get an encounter (or swap at paragon-epic) by giving up Power points you would have gained for this level" kind of deal for my games.
#25 mouthymerc Aug 27, 2010 8:12:45	@moutherc: I understand that, except battleminds don't have (encounter) attack powers. Still, thanks for the reply. Okay, I fail to see what this issue is here and why it is contested. At 7th level the battlemind can choose from a selection of augmentable at-wills. These are his encounter powers. If he wishes he can choose the gladiator encounter instead. What is the issue here?
#26 beej_silver Aug 27, 2010 8:26:46	I believe the issue is whether you are supposed to lose power points for taking an encounter power or not. By RAW you shouldn't, but there are those who do not find that fair. Some say that you can't choose an encounter power at all if you are an augment class, because an at-will is not an encounter. And then there's also the issue of swapping - augment classes need to swap out a lower-level at-will to gain a level 7 power. Does that also apply? Basically, they didn't mention how to handle it in the book. So until an official update/word of wotc employer comes out, I think there will be many interpretations, with your interpretation included amongst the possible rulings, mouthymerc.
#27 mouthymerc Aug 27, 2010 15:51:06	I believe the issue is whether you are supposed to lose power points for taking an encounter power or not. By RAW you shouldn't, but there are those who do not find that fair. Some say that you can't choose an encounter power at all if you are an augment class, because an at-will is not an encounter. And then there's also the issue of swapping - augment classes need to swap out a lower-level at-will to gain a level 7 power. Does that also apply? Basically, they didn't mention how to handle it in the book. So until an official update/word of wotc employer comes out, I think there will be many interpretations, with your interpretation included amongst the possible rulings, mouthymerc. Hmm thanks. Seems pretty straight forward to me, but hey, whatever. If you're caught up in that mess then I can see why you're confused. I guess for now you just need to do whatever works best for your group.