Has anyone else read the novel yet? I'm curious to get the impressions from OG DS fans and the newcomers to DS as well. I liked it a great deal. Much better than most of the other DS novels available other than the Lynn Abbey books (IMO of course). I didn't quite understand the roving band of Halflings so far from the Forest Ridge and the editing was standard WOTC. Overall a good read for a fantasy novel and a nice look into the workings of Nibenay.
Right from the beginning, it kind of turned me off with its references to Goliaths rather than Half Giants, and the fact that (what I am assuming is) the main character is a metal worker/swordsmith, who seems to be a lowly commoner with absolutely no status/rank, even though his work with metal is apparently of very high quality. It just does not fit into the Dark Sun described by Denning, or even the recent short stories introduced in DDI or even in these forums.
To me, this book "feels" like someone who was never exposed to the original Dark Sun got a really early, not-anywhere-near-done version of the 4e version, and was told to write a book.
I'm kind of torn at the moment between forcing myself to try to finish this book or start on either the new Neverwinter book or Homeland, since I have previews for both in my Kindle, and both start out way, WAY better than CUtS.
Come on, WotC, at least hire writers who actually KNOW about the world they're writing for! Sheesh.
Heck, I'm available. I'll do it if it will prevent tragedies like this in the future.
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As mentioned the wandering desert halflings didn't quite fit with my interpretation of DS. Alot of iron bars for doors and windows and metal just hanging around waiting to be turned into swords. And free at that! I liked that pretty much everyone hated defilers and magic...until they need it hahaha. I didn't really jive with the whole "demon" thing but I guess that's the 4E stuff bleeding in. It also seemed like the majority of Nibenays Templars are Defilers, at least at the end of the book in the big battle. The whole serial killer sub-plot was a bit weird but I can live with it. I was surprised at the amount of desert encounters, every day seemed like a new battle with some wasteland horror. I also had to chuckle about the way the author introduced most of the battle scenes at the end of sub-chapter ie. Everyone was enjoying the grilled erdlu and the warmth of a raging bonfire.
That's when the Dragon showed up. lol
That's when the Dragon showed up. lol
So I LOVE Dark Sun and went out and got this book immediately. I'm not done with it (they haven't even left for the city yet) but the more I go on the more I can't read it. This is Dark Sun for pete's sake! I don't wanna read about wimpy protagonists who wanna be left alone! The whole inspiration for the setting was Conan and John Carter of Mars, two heroes who were bleeding testosterone! Why am I reading about some nobody loser?
Man.
Would you say this novel is Hawke-ish, or Abbey/Denning-ish?
I don't wanna read about wimpy protagonists who wanna be left alone! The whole inspiration for the setting was Conan and John Carter of Mars, two heroes who were bleeding testosterone!
Where is the "Like" button for this comment? LIKE xbillion.
More than anything else I've read, I think the flavour of Dark Sun is closest to Clark Ashton Smith's Zothique series of short stories. In his own words:
"Zothique... is the last inhabited continent of earth. The continents of our present cycle have sunken, perhaps several times. Some have remained submerged; others have re-risen, partially, and re-arranged themselves... The science and machinery of our present civilisation have long been forgotten, together with our present religions. There are no firearms - only the bows, arrows, swords, javelins, etc. of antiquity. Sorcery and demonism prevail again as in ancient days."
The continent itself is mostly desert scattered with silent ruins of previous civilizations, or monster-haunted crags and wastes.
The 'protagonists' in his stories vary from vile necromancers raising ancient civilizations to do their bidding, to hapless travellers being ambushed by sinister succubi, to embarrassed kings cuckolded by undead lovers. Most of the stories are weird and wonderful, made all the more impressive considering they were written in the 1920s and '30s.
It may not be for everyone, however, as he has been described as a writer suffering from 'adjectivitis' and his penchant for archaic descriptives can be somewhat daunting to the first-time reader. I remember having to read his stuff with a dictionary close at hand to understand what was being described at times, but believe me, it was well worth it. For DMs who are heavy on using rich description to immerse receptive players in the setting, C.A Smith's works will definately put a few more arrows in your quiver.
In fact I was planning on running a campaign set in Zothique way back in the '90s when Dark Sun 2E was just going out of print. I picked up a bunch of cheap second-hand DS books and seeing as it was very closely aligned to what I had in mind I ended up setting my campaign in Athas' sun-scorched wastelands.
His books may be hard to track down still, as they were out of print for decades, but a small company called the Necronomicon Press were the only people publishing his works at the time I bought Tales of Zothique. The Book of Hyperborea is also a worthwhile read, though it is set on earth at the other end of the time spectrum and is somewhat cheekier in tone, with a sardonic sense of humour pervading most of the stories found within its pages. Zothique, however, is worthwhile reading to those looking for something very reminiscent of Dark Sun.
Some of the stories I rather favor that can be found there are "The Black Abbot of Puthuum", "The Charnel God", and "The Weaver in the Vault", though I haven't close to gotten through all of Smith's work yet by any means. A number of tales of Zothique are found there, such as "The Dark Eidolon".
Just be aware that some of the stories there are merely synopses, not that actual story. (Those that are, are marked as such.)
I enjoyed City Under the Sand well enough. I didn't know what to expect, going in, and it ended up being okay. That said, even as a newcomer to Dark Sun via 4E, I immediately had the feeling a few things were "off".
The seeming omnipresence of metal, despite it's supposed scarcity being central to both the story and the setting, was kind of annoying. How many small desert towns have smithies with stock piles of metal? WTF? Exactly how many people are running around the Athas with steel weapons?
At times, I thought the writer did seem to have some experience with 2E DS. The half-giant/goliath characters were all around 12' tall, which is not "4E canon", so to speak. The elves were likewise described as being exceptionally tall, as well as physically strong and imposing. That's definitely more in line with the DS elves of yore, than with 4E elves.
The story was solid, if not deep, and interesting if predictable. If the author writes another DS novel, I'd be likely to give it a read. This was an okay book, in my opinion.
"Why no metal?"
I have two theories, but I've never really heard or seen any substantial evidence why they removed metal:
1. The lack of metal signifies a "Dark Age". One of the reasons there's a lack of metal is because it could be that the techniques to find, excevate and smith metals are lost - in fact, there's still metal in the world, it's just that civilization cannot get to it. Another reason, the metal is all used up - the world is so old that metal has somehow been used up. Maybe because of an ancient army/war that used up all the metals? Or spelljammers harvested and took all the metal away. Or defiling somehow deastroyed it all...
2. High Fantasy, like LotR and FR and Eberron and Al'Quadim, are wholely dependent on metals. The lack of metal distances Dark Sun from the rest of traditional fantasy settings - making it unique. It also complicates the setting in a good way, forcing players and DMs to find creative and unique solutions for traditionally commonplace problems (like swords, hammers, nails, tools, etc) and sparking visually creative ideas. The lack of traditional animals (lions, horses, etc) compliments this - and leads to the unique Brom-like images.
I dislike the second explanation, since there are plenty of unique settings with metals - and I sometimes find the lack of metals overcomplicates the D&D game (there are whole threads devoted with "weapon breakage", "alternative armors", etc).
Anybody know the reasoning why they excluded Metals from the setting, or have other theories why the lack of metals is actually a good thing for the setting?
So Athas could have been a less metal rich world to begin with then part of a series of fallen civilizations. Each using up what easily accessible metal was available until none was. WHo knows, if you dig deep enough maybe you'll find some...
Giving credit for elements that the author gets right that can be summed up in a short sentence such as "Elves are tall", or "Half elves are near-outcasts" is being too kind (IMO) when slightly more wordy (but not difficult to understand) concepts as "Independent smiths probably don't even exist due to the extreme rarity and high value of even the smallest amount of metal". To me, it smacks of the author having been given a one page description of Dark Sun by WotC and told to write a novel.
The "Half-Giants should be called Half-Giants, even though in the D&D rules they are represented by the Goliath race" situation is perhaps not the author's fault, and maybe the editor's, or WotC's, so I'll give that a break. Still, it breaks with the concept of Dark Sun I am familiar with every time I read it. It also enforces my one page bible theory.
Other than description of Nibenay's court and the intrigue and politics within the templar structure (which I do give the author credit for -- good work there), I'm getting very little from this author (so far) that really sets the city of Nibenay apart in some way in my mind, as compared to other cities in the Tyr region.
I do agree that "whiny, wimpy protagonist" does not fit with the Dark Sun which I have been sold on from the original version to the new 4e release. However, I do like the "I can read metal" psionic aspect of the character.
If all of the writing in this book was as good and interesting as the scene where Nibenay's court is given news of the treasure under the sands, maybe I'd be more positive in my review of the book. But, as I said above, I'm still reading. Maybe the quality will ramp up, maybe the story will be just as interesting (or more) as it progresses. I hope that this happens, but am not counting on it.
2) The new novel is not bad at all, not brilliant, but enjoyable read for my tastes
3) Aye, 12' tall but still "goliath"...hm, needs better editing or such?
4) Hey folks, sorry to burst some bubbles but there HAS to be metal crafters because Athas is metal poor, but not *devoid*! where the heck do you think nobles and templars get metal items made, from weapons to brooches?
5) the story makes good sense (won't spoil it, but it's near end) of where he gets his tuition in metal craft etc
and his psionic power makes PERFECT sense and would be incredibly damn useful, hey, someone who can "read", find and work metal with psionics?! Really, he'd have had folk jumping on him, maybe literally to enslave him, for that very lucrative talent.
6) Again, there has to be SOME place iron etc that's not from Tyr comes from...yes, very rare, but, if you found water and iron, wouldn't you set up a fort to control them? Jeesh that's like winning the lottery on Athas, hehe
What the writer did wrong though was to have the village's gate MADE of iron..WTH?! ok, maybe possible, certainly "braced" with iron bands would be geat, but solid iron?!
Do people know how heavy iron IS?! A large iron portcullis in a castle entrance could weigh a couple of tons, fyi hence most were made of wood and faced with iron
Likewise, um, iron hinges are a waste bar on special things in that desert environment (sand/heat/cold wear it away fast), iron's best use is for tools and buckles.
7) I have my own backstory for Athas as I HATE the official history. now, if you imagine Athas is incredibly old, millions of years of civilizaiton possibly, most metal would have corroded away
also, the So-Uts attack metla and buildings, I view these as living "scorched Earth weapons", i.e. someone made them to utterly destroy enemy civilizations, the Athasian equivalent of an anti-neutron bomb
rather than kill people and leave buildings intact, it does the opposite: ruins the very necessities OF civilization! with metla corroded, their buildings destroyed, civilizations ability to fight or even exist gets ruined.
and that's just one such surviving Weapon of Athasian Mass Destruction...
so the anicent wars were very very evil indeed, possibly demonically controlled or inspired.
Abbey introduced well her protagonists, even went as far as creating backgrounds and motivations for villains that had nothing to do with the protagonists...which Hawke so transparently failed at in all four novels. Denning was also good in setting up personalities, and most people have read his novels.
Would you say this novel is Hawke-ish, or Abbey/Denning-ish?
Neither really. It is better than Hawke's stuff, but the character development isn't as good as Denning. It is worth a read though. It is far from the best D&D fiction I've ever read but it is also far from the worst.
The only issue I had with the story is it feels a bit contrived on a number of levels, although there is an in-story reason for it.
As for setting-correctness:
Races - It does uniformly refer to half-giants as goliaths throughout the book, although their behavior and size is clearly half-giantish. Dragonborn are correctly identified as Dray. The strong anti-elf prejudice rears its head throughout the book as it should. The half-giants behave like half-giants. The dwarves behave like dwarves.
Metal - It does overdo the metal a bit (like with the metal gates) but there is a good reason in-story why a half-elf is running a high-end blacksmith shop in Nibenay. The main character also communes with metal, so it makes sense that they seem to be stumbling into a lot of it. The search for metal is also what drives almost all of the protagonists and antagonists in the story.
4) Hey folks, sorry to burst some bubbles but there HAS to be metal crafters because Athas is metal poor, but not *devoid*! where the heck do you think nobles and templars get metal items made, from weapons to brooches?
Within the cities, I would assume that there are metal crafters, but they basically work for the templars, under very strict supervision. Maybe this is a bad assumption, but I did not figure there would be random, small-time, just-ekeing-out-a-living smiths such as the one in the story. Somehow, that convept does not feel right to me.
The story does seem to be getting better as it progresses. I'm looking forward to finding the time to actually get to its conclusion.
That's believable. That there could be 10 or even 5 other metalsmiths just in Tyr, many of them not located in secure areas like the noble or templar districts, run by poor people...is laughable.
I really hate fantasy which presents socieites that are basically "like America, but with a god-king" or whatever--where the writer is clearly unable to see past life in a modern capitalist democracy and the certain types of lifestyle choices that grants economically, that their writing never presents or understands how NOT like life now it would be on some really fundamental points. It's like Star Trek's funny-plastic-head-ruffles-of-the-week being used as stand-ins for see-they're-alien, without them ever really being more than white guys with funny-head-ruffles.
Nor is Athas Medieval Europe ;)
note, his clients supply the metal, iirc in the book...and metal isn't a "banned" substance, jeesh.
His clients supplying the metal changes absolutely nothing in my statement above. Nor did I say anything about it being banned "jeesh".
Based on simple logic and what we know of metal on Athas--that it is rare and expensive and makes superior weaponry--it follows that the sale and crafting of metal would be tightly controlled by the templarate, and hence would be illegal to sell or work without proper licensure from the government. Exactly the way many rare, expensive substances were treated historically, and the way some still are today. And such permits, licenses, authorizations, etc. would all be in artifically limited supply.
Throw the totalitarian and feudal aspects of the societies in question on top of that, and the idea of a free market metal smith who isn't part of a licensed family of smiths or part of a tightly regulated guild, both absolutely beholden to the local rulers, is absolutely preposterous for what should be obvious reasons.
Nor is Athas Medieval Europe ;)
Did I say "medieval Europe"? You do realize neither the term "serf" nor the term "feudal" mean "Medieval Europe"? Athasian cultures are all (theocractic, to varying degrees) 1) pre-industrial 2) totalitarian 3) feudal states. That sort of social structure existed in various forms all over the known world at one time or another, and all functioned very similarly, making it easy to understand how things would work on a base level in that sort of society.
In such societies you did not find poor freemen doing whatever the heck they wanted with rare and expensive materials for whomever the heck they wanted, at least not openly. (And if they did do so openly, they would soon recieve a visist from someone of great power in the government or a legally-bonded guild. During that visit, they would be either killed or enslaved, or made to work for their new patron if they happened to be some kind of craftsman or artisan...regardless of whether or not they wanted to work for them.
Also, once an invidivdual craftsman was supported by a particular patron, they didn't just take comissions from outside clients without their "patron" recieving something in return for it (given that your artisans were part of your status in such societies...like the breeding line of your dogs and horses).)