One topic that instigates my curiosity the most is about the city-states and their rulers, the sorcerer-kings. I get the general gist (powerful magicians and mindbenders, rule with an iron fist, yadda yadda) and i have some idea about the history (Rajaat's Champions, Borys, the Cleansing Wars, the Dark Lens, and so on).
What I would like to know, however, is more about these interesting characters' personalities. Who are the SKs? In what ways is Nibenay different from Hamanu? Who is the most evil of them? The most cunning? The strongest?
The same can be said about the cities they rule. In which ways Tyr differs from Gulg? I read a blog here the says that most city-states are based upon a real world society (Egipcians / Romans / Babylonians...). Is this true? How so?
In advance, I thank you all who bother to answer!
PS: Any other type of info is fine, I guess - would love to know more about Borys, for example, he is the coolest char ever.
PS2: Well, I plan on DMing right after Kalak's death, and I'm not sure if I'll use the events on Prism Pentad (whether those same characters killed him; if Rajaat was freed...). I understand lots of SKs were killed after this, but please, ignore this part of the history.
tl;dr: tell me all you can about the city-states and the sorcerer-kings!
Hamanu is just, yet capable of killing on a whim. He's one sorcerer-king we can say is closest to his old mortal self.
Borys' personality is unknown, for we only know what became of it after he turned into the Dragon. He' supremely confident, yet aware his existence is one of toil (he was created to fulfill an eternal duty).
All sorcerer-kings and queens, no matter their individual personalities, all agreed long ago to provide for the levy, to protect everyone's arses. They curb their desires and decisions and instincts within that optic; sages may have long discussions among themselves wondering why these superpowerful beings don't just duke it out.
All sorcerer-kings and queens, no matter their individual personalities, all agreed long ago to provide for the levy, to protect everyone's arses. They curb their desires and decisions and instincts within that optic; sages may have long discussions among themselves wondering why these superpowerful beings don't just duke it out.
Hmmm, I like that! So they're something like an necessary evil, I suppose? Powerful, egoccentric, but still aware that without them society will soon perish? It's a good moral question to throw at the players around Epic levels - yeah, you can kill the baddie ruler SOAB, but are you willing to risk the life of every man and woman and child and puppy in the process? (Oh, wait, no puppies in my DS, so I guess it's all-right).
If you can find it, the old 2nd Edition The Veiled Alliance supplement gives good details on each city=state's culture and does give some hints into each of the Sorcerer-Kings' personalities
Thanks a lot! Will look into it!
Here are some themes that apply to all the Sorcerer-Kings: Lawful; Calculating; Individualistic; Generals; Tactical; Forward-thinking; Immortal; Immoral.
The Sorcerer-Kings/Queens represent the last and most powerful defense against the chaos and madness of the wastes. For that, they are the most powerful force of "Law" over the land. If you adhere to the planescape law-vs-chaos idea, the city-states-vs-the wastes do a good job representing that war.
The Tyrants are also incredibly intelligent and have extreme forethought. Most of them are above petty disputes, such as war, law, slavery, etc, unless a dispute needs their attention. Do not get confused between the choices made by the sorcerer-kings and their templars. For example, the war between Gulg and Nibenay is more likely a byproduct of Nibenay and the Oba's hatred for each other, and less the desire of the two to kill each other. Their hatred spills forth onto their subjects, who take to hating the other city-state.
Communication between the Sorcerer-Kings and their subjects is most often performed quickly and indirectly - much like a priest and his/her God. The Sorcerer-King could appear in a dream, or speak through an Idol (Nibenay, for example, gives commands to his Shadow-Wifes through statues situated in each of the temples).
The personality of each Sorcerer-King is distinct. Many of their traits stem directly from the centuries-long war they excercised against the races. They are Generals...Sorcerer-Generals actually. Their minds are cool, calculating, and are very willing to make sacrifices for the final victory. Quoting Sun Tzu or Machiavelli, or using their quotes, works wonderfully for Sorcerer Kings. The fact that they are Generals is probably the ONLY trait that unites them. In the end, they all have different theories, different tactics, different morals, different goals, different beliefs... many of these might be because of their cultural backgrounds (the cultures of the city-states?). For example, what would happen if you put Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Joan of Arc, Shaka, Montezuma, Salah ad Din, Hannibal, Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, etc, on the same planet within miles of each other? Do they respect each other?
Borys is a mystery to most (or at least to me - I have yet to really decide who he is, what he does and the interactions between Borys and the other Sorcerer-Kings). He is not really a sorcerer-king, but holds more power than most. What does he do in his spare time? How "lawful" is he exactly? Why was he chosen as the "leader" of the Sorcerer-Kings? How was he changed by his transformation to a Dragon?
... just my opinion.
I've read about the 1,000-slave levy that Borys collects from the SKs, and have questions:
- Do we know if these are actually used to seal Rajaat away? How does this happen - are they simply fuel the defiling?
- Do we know if the Dragon still collects these?
- Do we know how the SKs select the 1,000?
The same can be said about the cities they rule. In which ways Tyr differs from Gulg? I read a blog here the says that most city-states are based upon a real world society (Egipcians / Romans / Babylonians...). Is this true? How so?
Well, each city is based off of a specific theme; Draj is Aztec: Urik is Babylonian. It's really just for architectural aesthetics. All Dark Sun society is virtually the same. It's based off of Roman culture. Read The Wanderer's chronicle for more information. Or, you can just go down to your local library and pick up a "Day in the Life of..." and take it from there. Here's a cultural break down of each city-state
Balic - Greek
Draj - Meso-American
Gulg - African
Nibenay - Asian
Raam - Indian
Tyr - Roman
Urik - Babylonian
tl;dr: tell me all you can about the city-states and the sorcerer-kings!
Well, you don't need to know much about the SK; you're players will most likely never meet them. SK are busy and they don't have time to make many public appearances. Your players, will meet their Templars, which are all the same: devious.
I've read about the 1,000-slave levy that Borys collects from the SKs, and have questions:
- Do we know if these are actually used to seal Rajaat away? How does this happen - are they simply fuel the defiling?
- Do we know if the Dragon still collects these?
- Do we know how the SKs select the 1,000?
1. Yes. It's a spell, a big one. Simple as that.
2. Has been since Rajaat was imprisonned, every year. In the Prism Pentad Balic is forced to double its levy, at the request of the Dragon, when Tyr denies the Dragon his levy.
3. Slaves. A lot come from raids on surrounding lands. Wars, conquests. Trade for slaves. You got to see each city as a manufactory for people, tuned to produce 1,000 disposable people a year.
Balic - Greek
Draj - Meso-American
Gulg - African
Nibenay - Egyptian
Raam - Indian
Tyr - Roman
Urik - Babylonian
Nibenay, Egyptian? Thought it was more Korean or Vietnamese based.
There's no Egyptian-culture?
You're right; fixed.
There's no Egyptian-culture?
I wouldn't say that. Rajaat does have upside down pyramids.
You got to see each city as a manufactory for people, tuned to produce 1,000 disposable people a year.
Which is one very awesome concept that adds a HUGE amount of flavor to the setting. When all is said and done, this is one of the main priorities of the sorcerer kings and everything linked to them in one way or another can contribute to this goal.
This single concept can really define the reality of life in the tablelands. ( you better be a valuable asset to the monarchs, or be damn good at hiding, else you are potential spell components for the darkest ritual in athasian history) (annual mass murder to keep an insane godlike destroyer imprisoned in the middle of an empty void for all time)
*shivers* I love it!
You're right; fixed.
There's no Egyptian-culture?
I personally had always imagined the culture of Kalidnay to be very Egyptian before it became a ruin. However as far as I know thats just personal opinion.
I've read about the 1,000-slave levy that Borys collects from the SKs, and have questions:
- Do we know if these are actually used to seal Rajaat away? How does this happen - are they simply fuel the defiling?
- Do we know if the Dragon still collects these?
- Do we know how the SKs select the 1,000?
1. Yes. It's a spell, a big one. Simple as that.
2. Has been since Rajaat was imprisonned, every year. In the Prism Pentad Balic is forced to double its levy, at the request of the Dragon, when Tyr denies the Dragon his levy.
3. Slaves. A lot come from raids on surrounding lands. Wars, conquests. Trade for slaves. You got to see each city as a manufactory for people, tuned to produce 1,000 disposable people a year.
We actually do not know if all of the 7,000 slaves are actually killed each year for sure.
I don't remember, but the valley of dust and fire "might" touch on this. I need to look and my book shelf is like 7 feet away.
You're right; fixed.
There's no Egyptian-culture?
I personally had always imagined the culture of Kalidnay to be very Egyptian before it became a ruin. However as far as I know thats just personal opinion.
That was precisely what I had imagined, as well.
It lets you have very Egyptian-esque ruins, buried beneath the wastes waiting to be discovered. Which fits quite well, IMHO. It also did seem to fit some of the pictured ruins in the module(s) they're present in, if I remember correctly. Plus, the name Kalid-ma sounds quite Egyptian.
We actually do not know if all of the 7,000 slaves are actually killed each year for sure.
I always assumed that Borys took part of the levy to replenish slaves. Unlike rest of the Tyr region Ur-Draxa doesn't have the luxury of raiding villages and the like to restock its slave population.
Another thing that struck me in the Prism Pentad - and which I liked a lot - was the seeming lack, or refusal to use, by Troy Denning of any typical spell or psionics that would have rendered his novels like all the others (Greyhawk, FR, Dragonlance); his baddies and heroes did not cast fly or teleport or wormhole to exactly where you want to go spells, instead the Dragon seemed to literaly go from point A to B by either walking or flying with his flesh and blood wings.
This led Flip or Brax (IIRC) to imagine the Dragon stored the life energy of each city's levy in the obsidian orb in his stomach, until later use, as the round-the-cities trip was described to take him weeks.
So some of Borys's power might not all come from his formidable dragon form, but from extra life energy he has stored in himself.
That Rajaat-trapping spell requires a lot of energy. The Champions discovered their magic was not as powerful and as subtle as their master's, and even trapped away his power seeped back into our reality, eventually undoing their spell. Once they noticed that, they made one of their own into the Dragon, one whose mastery over magic would be unequaled amongst all of the Champions, which would make the spell last longer. The spell itself requires a lot of life energy, since it accomplishes a lot: creates and maintains a void-like dimension just waiting to spill out its contents, traps a superpowerful being within, and encases his superpowered mortal remains into a giant stone cyst.
This might be why Sadira managed to bluff him when she said she could shatter his balls (the obsidian ones in his stomach) and make him less powerful.
That's not from me. A dragon's power, in 2e, was already linked to using an obsidian orb attuned to itself. Without it it could not turn its regular defiling magic into dragon magic (defiling that leeches from animals as well as plants), and could not cast psionic enchantments (2e's first attempt at epic-level spells). Spells that could raise mountain chains were psionic enchantments, the stuff of legends necessary to keep a godlike being imprisoned.
I'm going to disagree with the consensus on Nibenay: they are very Egyptian - Petroglyphics/Hieroglyphics every where (that's how it sounds to me), they mummify their dead using Ock'n resin before internment (Ivory Triangle - Nibenay page 26)
The death of a templar is commemorated by a somber ritual in which 12 templar mourners carry the body to an underground temple that opens into the catacombs. Here, the mourners bathe the body and lay it upon a platform teeming with ock'n snails. The attendants mourn silently outside the room until the snails have completely covered the body with a thick resin. This resin will eventually harden and seal the body.
Doesn't sound very Asian to me.
As for Gulg, try looking up the Bantu culture of the Congo Region. The epitome of Dark Africa vs. Desert Africa
I'm going to disagree with the consensus on Nibenay: they are very Egyptian - Petroglyphics/Hieroglyphics every where (that's how it sounds to me), they mummify their dead using Ock'n resin before internment (Ivory Triangle - Nibenay page 26)
The death of a templar is commemorated by a somber ritual in which 12 templar mourners carry the body to an underground temple that opens into the catacombs. Here, the mourners bathe the body and lay it upon a platform teeming with ock'n snails. The attendants mourn silently outside the room until the snails have completely covered the body with a thick resin. This resin will eventually harden and seal the body.
Doesn't sound very Asian to me.
That is about the only part that seems to mesh with Egypt in any way, however. Even the, it's only barely, IMHO. Egyptians aren't the only ancient culture to preserve their dead, and certainly not with the resin of a snail that seals the bodily remains. Plus...Athasian city-states are inspired by real world ancient cultures, not completely the same as said cultures. Thus, the whole reason for the multitude of unique twists throughout the setting.
The architecture is very much Angkorian in nature (see pictures of Angkor Wat and other Cambodian, Khmer-era architecture, and compare them to the pictures of the city-state of Nibenay). The prevalence of bas-reliefs upon every square inch of every surface is definitely Angkorian; Egyptian petro/heiroglyphs are spaced carefully, and do not cover every square inch of the surfaces of all the building, whereas Angkorian bas-reliefs do precisely that.
The style of dress is likewise Hindu in nature (the Khmer-era Cambodians were Hindu), as is the style of dance (note the headdresses on the dancers, and the stylized dance pictures), the customs (the types of courtesy, what is considered taboo, the various rules, etc), as described in the City-State of Nibenay book in the Ivory Triangle supplement.
Oh, and yes, Gulg is definitely modelled after African tribal cultures.
Tyr: Roman. The first thing that happened was Kalak died, but the impression was that he was considered a dependable and consistent monarch. Cruel and evil, but consistently so. Also considered incredibly powerful (they all are, but he got special mention in the original boxed set for his crazy powerful magical might). Also he was uniquely statted out as a level 25/25 defiler/psion, something which led some folks including myself to believe that he was never a dragon before his big attempt and was just insanely powerful. 25/25 would actually make him more powerful than the vast majority of other 2e NPCs, even without access to psionic enchantments). This all changed once he went bat crazy with finishing his ziggurat: he was no longer considered even-handed or dependable. My overall read is that his only purpose in ruling Tyr was cultivating the components he needed for his spell. Early on he ran the city well and consistently because a successful city meant the cultivation of needed components. Once he got close to the finish line he started bleeding it dry because it was just a one-shot means to an end, which would explain the change in character we witness compared to his original description.
Urik: Babylonian. Hamanu is very Hammurabi-ish. He's also (as has been stated) the closest to his original humanity out of them all. Not to mention being the youngest by a large margin. He treats his city like a well-oiled machine and takes pride in its success. He's still cruel and evil and arbitrary, but it all serves the greater purpose of the continued success of his city. He's also the efficient warrior-king type that everyone else wishes they were (looking at YOU, Tec). Even after all these years what stands out when I think of him is the mention that his armies have never lost a battle/war when he has personally led them. Never. Over thousands of years. That tells me that when it gets right down to it, if he puts his mind to it, he makes things happen. Even if it means going toe-to-toe with another Sorcerer-Monarch. But again, it all goes back to his motivation to secure the future and legacy of Urik, which means more to him than anything else at this point.
Gulg: African, which some fanciful Medieval Europe flavor tossed in (that wacky lords and ladies type proper speech she makes her nobles use). Lalali-Puy doesn't receive much characterization, but she does come across as very mercurial (in that one adventure her courtiers barely have to even try to convince her to 180 on the PCs). She's got a good scam going, what with her forest-goddess rubbish. After all these years I would say it's gone to her head and it's not so much an act anymore: she's still evil and power-hungry, but the image of the forest-goddess has become more than an image. Not all goddesses are nice, though. And I'm sure there's a whole lot of entitlement to go along with that. I imagine her as a traditional Greek goddess: her basic human emotions blown crazy out of proportion, coupled with a LOT of whim and entitlement and manipulation and the fact that with the way Gulg works as a culture she takes a VERY direct role in governance.
Nibenay: Southeast Asian (VERY much so). Nibenay is pretty clear-cut. He wants power. All the power of Borys, but with none of the crazy. Everything he does nowadays is focused on that (his dealings with Siemhouk and the amount of research he oversees and the simple fact that he's advanced to the brink far more than most others have make that pretty clear). He's also very much characterized as the nerdy intellectual type and always seemed to be the thinkeriest thinker out of the whole bunch. If nerdy intellectuals were also genocidal power-hungry monsters with the power to make their topless girls fantasies come true. He doesn't really care about appearances in his city so much (shadow king and all that), but has the power to squash literally ANY doubt as to who is really in charge and is also willing to make the consistent effort to keep in touch with the reality of city life (his regular meetings with that one noble lady and the way it describes him as wanting her candid opinions).
Balic: Greece. Andropinis possibly got the LEASt characterization out of them all. He's clearly a schemer: he basically scammed his way—LEGALLY, I might add—into eternal governorship of the city-state. We're pretty light on info with him (we have all of that bit in the Prism Pentad where Tithian visits and his small part in Dregoth Ascending), but I imagine him as something of a very charming politician or mob/party-boss type guy who's all smiles and friendly until you don't take the hint and he has to break a few legs to make sure you get it this time you effing idiot and see what you just made me have to do?
Raam: India, almost to a tee. Abalache-Re is messed up. I honestly think she's far crazier than any of the others (out of the original 7 at least). This is an incredibly charismatic woman who presumably led an immense army in the complete genocide of another race. Except now she can't even keep the lid on a single city? She's nothing if not completely inconsistent. She's devious and smart and incredibly manipulative (that forest maker thing was a good scam, it took a lot of know-how to prepare, and she pulled it off well until the expected PC-resulting failure) . . . her Badna stuff seems like a good idea . . . but where did it all go wrong? Or maybe it's all just an act to throw everyone off-guard and she's one of those people whose home looks like a total chaotic mess except they know where everything is and they really are on top of things despite all appearances to the contrary. Or maybe she's just gotten bored with eternity and is waiting for something cool to happen. I wouldn't put it past her: she's really manipulative and a smooth talker (she DID get all the rest to cooperate on assassinating Dregoth, and then ransacked his entire place before apparently using the pilfered info to devise her own little jump spell forest maker's all about).
Draj: Aztecs. Tectuktitlay (you know you've been with Dark Sun from the beginning when you can rattle off his name and spelling without missing a beat!) is . . . interesting. He's characterized at first as a wannabe who's less powerful than all the rest. He is, however, one of the MOST powerful (looking at his original stats in Dragon Kings, only Nibenay and Borys were stronger). He's also the only other one to flat-out claim to be a god aside from Lalali-Puy. He also rules a culture apparently designed to provide him blood sacrifices to fuel his transformation. I kind of get the vibe from him that he's something of an over-compensating poser who's met and exceeded his own aspirations of grandeur (which of course results in even grander ones which he then aspires to in perpetuity).
You guys are free to derail this topic into whatever you want =)
I like squirrels. Can we talk about squirrels next?
On a more serious note, I finally finished Prism Pentad myself. It's an awesome story, but it's not a direction I would want to go to for my own games. If sorcerer-kings after Kalak are going down, I think it would be more interesting to have it done by one of my players, and in a more spectacular fashion than how they were gimped by Rajaat.
With that being said, I really want to know more about Abalach-Re. Why does she let her city be as chaotic as it is? Her personality is something that I can't figure out, and I want to get her personality because one of my players in my new 4E DS game is a dray that's really loyal to Dregoth. She's not around in 2E canon when Dregoth became active again, but how would she have reacted to his reappearance if the fight with Sadira never took place? What will she do once she discovers that Dregoth is alive and is out to get her?
The only reading experience I've had with Abalach-Re comes from that one chapter in the Cerulean Storm, and that short intro story in the City by the Silt Sea. So I can't get a handle on her quirks just yet. As a potential BBEG for my game, I want to learn all that I can about her. ^__^
PS. @commieclone: I want to hear more about Nibenay (the city) as SE Asian. I get the same impression, but seeing as I live in SE Asia myself, the analogs that I've drawn up might just be the result of my personal bias. >.> Nibenay has quickly grown into my favorite city-state, after all.
Squaids!
Just a "Forbidden City" is Chinese.
All of Athas is Roman-Germanic culture. Each city-state just has a theme.
I just read Prism Pentad again...I'd totally do Lalai-Puy.
My impressions of the "original" 7 city-states and monarchs.
Tyr: Roman. The first thing that happened was Kalak died, but the impression was that he was considered a dependable and consistent monarch. Cruel and evil, but consistently so. Also considered incredibly powerful (they all are, but he got special mention in the original boxed set for his crazy powerful magical might). Also he was uniquely statted out as a level 25/25 defiler/psion, something which led some folks including myself to believe that he was never a dragon before his big attempt and was just insanely powerful. 25/25 would actually make him more powerful than the vast majority of other 2e NPCs, even without access to psionic enchantments). This all changed once he went bat crazy with finishing his ziggurat: he was no longer considered even-handed or dependable. My overall read is that his only purpose in ruling Tyr was cultivating the components he needed for his spell. Early on he ran the city well and consistently because a successful city meant the cultivation of needed components. Once he got close to the finish line he started bleeding it dry because it was just a one-shot means to an end, which would explain the change in character we witness compared to his original description.
I always assumed that the stats given were to show the effects of the partial transformation that was interrupted. He would have had to started the dragon transformation to have lived so many years. Also I believe City-State of Tyr came out before Dragon-Kings, which is why it does not show him as the "Dragon" class.
Edit: Nevermind, checked amazon. Dragon Kings came out 1st.
Gulg - African
Sounds more Amazonian then African.
African culture is based in the savahna.
Gulg is in the jungle. They sound more like Headshrinkers.
No. African culture is not based in the savannah. They were based mainly in the fertile river valleys like any other ancient civilizations. Also, head hunting existed on every continent except Antarctica. It isn't specific to the Amazon.
Gulg is definitely sub-Saharan Africa based.
Oba means "king" or "God" in the yoruba language.
Mogadisho (Gulg's chief huntsman) is named after a city in Somalia.
The Mopti wall that protects Gulg is based on the boma barriers used in Africa to keep animals out.
It is also named after another city in Africa.
There really isn't anything that ties Gulg particularly to the amazon. The amazon tribes are closer to the Draji than they are to the Gulgs.
One would need to read anew Valley of Dust and Fire to see about Ur Draxa's slave supplies. It's a safe bet to say, though, that the city's freemen population is self-sustaining, like any other city.
Page 58 has the only reference I could find on the subject, stating the Dragon brings back new slaves once a year. Not a particularly definitiveanswer to the question, but better than nothing I suppose.
One would need to read anew Valley of Dust and Fire to see about Ur Draxa's slave supplies. It's a safe bet to say, though, that the city's freemen population is self-sustaining, like any other city.
Page 58 has the only reference I could find on the subject, stating the Dragon brings back new slaves once a year. Not a particularly definitiveanswer to the question, but better than nothing I suppose.
Leads me to beleieve that Bory's dips into the leavy to re-up Ur Draxa's slaves.
Would also be a great way to reclaim spies. Using psionic suggestion to get chosen as part of the levy, returning to their master, borys, with the latest intel. Would also be a great way to find other potentially important individuals that could serve the dragon in return for not becoming spell components.
True, but I've never seen Borys as one who even gave non-champions much thought. If he wanted to use them as spies, he'd just assault and rip it from their minds before he used them as the spell component. I bet there aren't many who could resist the full psionic might of The Dragon.
Edit: that could me a great pre-Revised adventure hook. The players are captured and sold as slaves to the Dragon. Most players know they are going to die. However, when they learn they are not going to die, but perhaps be in Ur-Draxa or perhaps, they're sold to regions beyond Tyr, it would be a much more interesting game!!!
As for Kalak, it's not necessary to be a dragon to be immortal. And the fact that CSoT came out after DK added to the thought that he was just crazy powerful without being a dragon (also it's repeatedly mentioned as him breaking the mold as far as the other SMs go). Besides, it would have been very easy (not to mention fun) for the devs to stat him out as a 5th-stage dragon. YMMV, though. It could have just been an oversight.
Now Abalache-Re . . . if she knew Dregoth were "alive" and out to get her, I think she would first need to change her shorts. When she orchestrated his assassination the first time, part of the reason everyone went along with it was because Borys was in the middle of his 100-year-long itch and they had no expectation he would ever come out of it. In other words, this time she doesn't just have the other 6 tablelands monarchs to sweet-talk. This time she also has Borys. Dregoth is insanely powerful, yes. But if the gun were jumped and Abalache-Re knew he had returned, dollars to donuts Borys would find out soon (Abalache-Re's hope being a repeat of before, but this time making sure Dregoth STAYS dead). Then the real question is what Borys would do about it.
If there was a fight, I'd give the edge to Borys and the others. Sure they surprised him and took him down with sucker-punches and now-lost artifacts, but they DID take him down. And this time they'd have Borys. They're also all more powerful than they were the first time. Borys would be aware of this. Which leads me to wonder if maybe instead of taking him out, Borys may be willing to make a deal with Dregoth, or even possibly re-integrate him into the Tablelands status-quo. Think about it: out of everyone, Dregoth was always the most powerful and (quite possibly) the smartest out of the bunch. He was a 9th stage dragon within 100 years of the rebellion, managed to NEVER succumb to dragon rage, and apparently unique to the original champions was an insanely poweful immortal at war with the GIANTS (clearly the most powerful race targeted) before Rajaat approached HIM and offered him a job title (as opposed to being a student like most of the rest were). Dregoth knows stuff. He's been places. He surely has some things to offer Borys, and if Borys is secure in the knowledge he can take out Dregoth anytime he wants (which he likely will be), he should be willing to hear him out before greasing him. And since Borys wasn't party to Dregoth's original death—not to mention being crazy powerful—Dregoth might be at least a little inclined to listen to what Borys has to say before lashing out.
Actually, I'm thinking in Borys' mind that Dregoth would make a better "partner" than Abalache-Re ever has. That a secure and well-running Raam is better than one on the verge of civil war. That if a certain undead dragon were to, oh I dunno, conquer and impose order on Raam, then it might not be a huge tragedy if a certain "head priestess" were taken out of the picture.
As for what he could get out of it, Dregoth is probably the only one who full understands the dragon metamorphosis rituals. Something went wrong with Borys' transformation (as evidenced by his stunted looks and general lack of wings in most depictions). He's also still alive. Which means the life-shaping magic Dregoth has access to and control over would still work on him. I think he'd be interested in that.
In a fight, Borys has the advantage; but Dregoth can still win if he gets lucky. And Dregoth has access to Plannar Magic Borys may not understand. One on one, Dregoth could easily defeat each of the SK. He'd hit Abalache-Re first; then Hamanu. He could hit Nibenay and the Oba before word reached out. He'd go after Andronis and save Techy last, as he's the weakest. I think he's planning on having his cult popular in every city state and he'd install a Dray as the King of each city. As a barganing chip with Borys, Dregoth would now control the Tyr region and the slaves he needs to keep Rajaat imprisoned.
That's the only way. There can only be one Dragon of Tyr and Dregoth is just one to many if the SK were still around.
I think they made the Cerulian strom because The Valley of Dust and Fire was their least favored accessory. Once you're in Ur-Draxa, you're not doing anywhere but Ur-Draxa. Maybe you can escape if you can fly or swim throuh lava.
In a fight, Borys has the advantage; but Dregoth can still win if he gets lucky. And Dregoth has access to Plannar Magic Borys may not understand. One on one, Dregoth could easily defeat each of the SK. He'd hit Abalache-Re first; then Hamanu. He could hit Nibenay and the Oba before word reached out. He'd go after Andronis and save Techy last, as he's the weakest. I think he's planning on having his cult popular in every city state and he'd install a Dray as the King of each city. As a barganing chip with Borys, Dregoth would now control the Tyr region and the slaves he needs to keep Rajaat imprisoned.
That's the only way. There can only be one Dragon of Tyr and Dregoth is just one to many if the SK were still around.
IMO, dregoth "might" kill a single sorcererking before the rest showed up. But aside from the surprise attack, the other sorcerer kings would join forces and hunt dregoth down. Dregoth wouldn't stand a chance. Also, IMO, Dregoth wouldn't be able to handle borys, so he wouldn't act unless the dragon was no longer a threat.
In all likelihood, any SK dregoth attacked would simply escape while sending a message to the other monarchs, who would then drop whatever they were doing to put an end to a threat. Unless, of course, Dregoth was allied with one, some or all of the other SKs.( which I could see in some cases)
His ace is that he's spent lots of time in other realms; his weapon is knowledge (and insanity). Who knows what sort of artifacts he has; he could have a Rod of Dragon-slaying etc.
I just re-read City by the Silt Sea; um, he's got revenge and godness on his mind. He's going to kill Abalache-Re and all the citizens of Raam. BTW, just how did he get to 27th level at the time of his death? Whereas the rest barely started out at 21st level.
Also, I thought that Borys kept the other Champions close so he can have power over them. After their slaying of Dregoth, a being not yet a Dragon like him, but close in power so easily, Borys and new found respect for his fellow Champions; surely if they could slay Dregoth as easily, so they could him.
Dregoth is a powerful threat. No doubt. Which is exactly why he would get put down if he ever moved against the champions. There are a lot of things to consider in this senario. But the Ace in the hole is Borys, whom dregoth would have to remove before he would stand even a small chance at success.
For the record, I think Dregoth's awesome. I really enjoyed killing him back in 2e.
Also important to note is that as per 2e rules, undead do not advance. At least liches/kaisharga didn't. Once you became one, you could no longer gain levels. When Dregoth was killed, he was already 29th level. For the past 2,000 years he hadn't advanced beyond that. His inability to advance and finish the transformation was one of the major motivating factors for him in the original material (up there with revenge—especially on Abalache-Re—and godhood). You might even say that his attempts at godhood were fueled by the perception that it was the only path left to him.
As for "nowadays," if word of Dregoth got out, Borys wouldn't necessarily take him out right away. Borys is the unparalleled top dog of Athas (aside from Rajaat and as far as we know). And he knows it (or thinks it). Before killing Dregoth (and I fully believe he could, especially if the others chipped in: heck, Borys and Hamanu and Kalak managed to take town a 27th level Kalid-Ma all on their own), I think he'd consider some kind of deal with him.
For Dregoth, he certainly learned the virtue of caution over the last 2,000 years. He knows he was taken out by the 7 SMs the first time. He must know that them + sane Borys = no win. If he's not going to wait for Borys to disappear, then he would likely try to make some kind of deal.
Finally, I feel like I have to keep reminding folks that contrary to the in-character (and untrustworthy) narration of the Wanderer, Tectuktitlay was actually the second most powerful of the original 7 SMs as per Dragon Kings. If anything, Andropinis or Lalali-Puy are likely the least powerful of the bunch (they were both 21st as per DK and both are described as the most human-looking of the bunch).
According to City by the Silt Sea, Abalach-Re and the others indeed attacked citing for a reason they did not want a second rampaging Dragon to deal with.
The time table's still somewhat murky on the whole thing, even when crossreferencing.
I find it ludicrous that Dregoth was, in 2e game terms, one level short of a full dragon. I'd make him the highest level and furthest along the metamorphosis from the remaining sorcerer-kings, for sure, just not that far. My two bits.
It really seems like it belongs in the Levant more than any place else.
Raam: India, almost to a tee. Abalache-Re is messed up. I honestly think she's far crazier than any of the others (out of the original 7 at least). This is an incredibly charismatic woman who presumably led an immense army in the complete genocide of another race. Except now she can't even keep the lid on a single city? She's nothing if not completely inconsistent. She's devious and smart and incredibly manipulative (that forest maker thing was a good scam, it took a lot of know-how to prepare, and she pulled it off well until the expected PC-resulting failure) . . . her Badna stuff seems like a good idea . . . but where did it all go wrong? Or maybe it's all just an act to throw everyone off-guard and she's one of those people whose home looks like a total chaotic mess except they know where everything is and they really are on top of things despite all appearances to the contrary. Or maybe she's just gotten bored with eternity and is waiting for something cool to happen. I wouldn't put it past her: she's really manipulative and a smooth talker (she DID get all the rest to cooperate on assassinating Dregoth, and then ransacked his entire place before apparently using the pilfered info to devise her own little jump spell forest maker's all about).
I always interpreted Raam to be more Persian.
Anyway, IIRC the few upper class live a life of decadence and hedonism, which may be all that Ablach-Re lives for anymore.
Why do people say that Tyr is Roman? I have never gotten that. Balic is the Graeco-Roman city. Tyr seems more Middle Eastern to me... Assyrian maybe. Or maybe Phoenician (since it's name sounds like Tyre). Its economy is based on iron (like Assyria), which is also a rare resource and a monopoly (like the Tyrian murex). The ziggurat does not seem Roman at all to me.
It really seems like it belongs in the Levant more than any place else.
I never thought of Tyr as Roman myself. I also thought of it as Middle Eastern.
Well at least in my game thats how it is, and i've had no complaints.
This may be where the confusion came from on the source material for each city, as the descriptions spell out one thing and the art another, sometimes multiple conflicting others.
Reading the descriptions is the only way to come up with their real-world parallel culture, as the descriptions are as consistant as can be from one product to another.
Well, each city is based off of a specific theme; Draj is Aztec: Urik is Babylonian. It's really just for architectural aesthetics. All Dark Sun society is virtually the same. It's based off of Roman culture. Read The Wanderer's chronicle for more information. Or, you can just go down to your local library and pick up a "Day in the Life of..." and take it from there. Here's a cultural break down of each city-state
Balic - Greek
Draj - Meso-American
Gulg - African
Nibenay - Asian
Raam - Indian
Tyr - Roman
Urik - Babylonian
Okay, in getting pictures for my wiki on Raam, and re-looking at this, I have some thoughts.
It seems to me that there are few ways a citizen of Tyr can tell himself apart from a citizen of Balic. In fact, for those two, even less. That would be clothes and speech.
I guess what I am wondering is if they have feelings of nationalism and are proud of being from a particular city state and would show that off in some way. And clothes and speech are the only ways I can think they would differ away from their home.
I also assume the cultures are different but then Tyr and Balic are very similar if one is Greek and the other Roman. Is that intentional?
Random thoughts.
turlough
Now it seems everyone speaks Common.
Yup, in 4e, all pc races know the common tongue (known as the trade tongue in DS) and I'm sure we will see a return of city-state languages, as every other setting as languages based on country.
Remember each city-state is over two-thousand years old; if there were a universial common tongue as spoken by the SK, it would have evolved over time as all languages do; The Lost City-States, Ur-Draxa and the Last Sea region probably speak a different language than Tyr Common.
If I were to group the Languages, here's how I'd do it.
Common is spoken as in Gulg, Nibaney and Raam.
In Draj and Urik, their Common has a slight dialect.
Tyr has a greater dialect.
Balic, being the most isolated, has a different language.
Trade Common, a language spoken by all merchants.
As for the racial languages.
Elven is still spoken and probably is regional. Within the Tyr Region, there are probably many different Elven languages (North, West, South etc.). That is, each Elven tribe from a specific area would speak the same language.
The Dwarven language is probably dead. Dwarves don't have much racial unity and probably found it benefical to speak the languages of the City-states their villages were near.
Halfling is a unique and ancient language that is understood and universial due to racial unity in the Forest Ridge, but not understood in the Jagged-Cliffs.
Giants probably have their own language especially if they trade with one another on the Sea of Silt.
Tri-Kreen, Pterran are unique languages to themselves.
Celik is probably Merchant Common.
Also, if you have a Halfling or Elf (the Elf probably would have a chance to learn a bit of Common), that either visits or is captured as a slave, would not understand the language of the people who captured them. An enslaved Elf-herder from the Foothills of the Ringing Mountains who had little contact with non-Elves, would not understand what the Templars in the Balic Arena were saying as he is thrown in a Gladiator match.
The Tyr region is too small for separate languages to develop.
The size of the tablelands has nothing to do with it (IMO). Think of all the generations of families whom never leave their city-state. The common person doesn't adventure and probably doesn't have the exposure to outsiders that you find in other settings. Travel is not something the common folk of the city-states look forward to. There's also the whole martial law/regional lock down that happens from time to time where no one can enter or leave.
Remember each city-state is over two-thousand years old; if there were a universal common tongue as spoken by the SK, it would have evolved over time as all languages do; The Lost City-States, Ur-Draxa and the Last Sea region probably speak a different language than Tyr Common.
Those are regional languages. Each city state had one in the revised box set. The common language, which is the most wide spread language, is called the trade tongue. It's the one language anyone can use to communicate with almost anyone in any city-state.
Also, if you have a Halfling or Elf (the Elf probably would have a chance to learn a bit of Common), that either visits or is captured as a slave, would not understand the language of the people who captured them. An enslaved Elf-herder from the Foothills of the Ringing Mountains who had little contact with non-Elves, would not understand what the Templars in the Balic Arena were saying as he is thrown in a Gladiator match.
The only playable races in the original box set that didn't come stock with the common tongue, were the halflings and thrikreen who had to use a proficiency slot to learn it. Every other pc race knew common. In 4e, every pc race will (highly probable) know common, as problems with communication within a group stops being interesting and fun to play, and turns annoying and frustrating rather quickly. It also opens up potential problems between the players and the DM when the players try to form a tactic and the DM stops them, claiming player X doesn't understand so cannot participate. Which was an actual problem in 2e.
I see 4e DS handling languages exactly how it does for everyother setting. Common, Racial, Regional. In the end, it's all flavor.
But, this brings me back to my own question. Do you all think that citizens of a city state have nationalist pride? Do they cling to their city states mores, idioms and culture when they travel abroad? What about the merchant houses? Is it possible to look at someone and say they are from a particular city state? Or do you need to talk to them before you can tell?
For example, in history, it was obvious who was from Greece or Italy versus England or Norway at a glance. I don't see that happening in Dark Sun, though. I see all races having all possible diversities in all cities. (So, light skinned, dark skinned, hair color and I include "exotic" hair colors due to weird changes. Again, thinking exalted here, and maybe a person is born with blue or green hair, due to elemental affinity of them or their parents. But any city state citizen could be dropped into any other city state and, for me, no one could tell them apart from a native based on looks along.) For me, what makes them different is their dress and speech, but again not so much that it isn't understood.
What do the rest of you do or see in this regard?
Thanks!
turlough
For turlough: I'd think it depends on which city-state you are talking about, with regards to nationalist pride. I think Urikites, Draji, and Gulgans have nationalist pride. I don't see Rammins, Balicans, or Tyrians having as much (well, maybe the Tyrians have more now that Kalak is gone). Nibenese, it would depend on a number of things, I'd imagine. I could see them going either way on it.
Tyr is definitely greek: the term tyrant refered to the despote kings of ancient greece, Agis was a benevolent spartan king.
(I see nothing middle eastern in Tyr).
Balic is much more roman, with its elected government and the Dictator.
I also don't get why people say that Hammanu is very like Hammurabi? because it's written the same in english, and they both have law codex?