Clerics in Dark Sun 4e- do they need to change?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Mist-Bound

Aug 31, 2009 16:47:41

This is something that's been nagging me for a while now. I know that traditionally, Dark Sun Clerics pray to the Elements instead of the gods, but that's always been more of a fluff effect then anything. Is there any particular reason why they can't simply say, in the Player/Campaign Guide, that Athasian Clerics, Avengers, Invokers, Paladins and whatever's in PHB3 draw their power from the Elemental Chaos instead of the Astral Sea, give a selection of new Divine powers with a more elemental theme, and create an assortment of Athas-appropriate Domains? I mean, Core already has a Sun and an Earth Domain, so would it be that difficult to make domains for Sandstorm, Rain, Fire, whatever? And I'm pretty sure some, if not all, of the basic domains can be used for Templars- Justice, War, Imprisonment, Tyranny, don't any of these sound like they could fit the Sorcerer-Kings?

#2

throkat

Aug 31, 2009 18:48:23

I'm still hoping that elemental clerics will be represented by an elemental power source class included with the setting, but I'm with you on hoping the divine power source represents the SK's various templars.


Some domains are perfect for individual SKs, such as the Moon domain for Tec, the Undeath domain for Dregoth, and the Madness domain for Daskinor.  Other domains seem to be equally applicable to all the SKs, like the Civilization domain.

#3

Mist-Bound

Aug 31, 2009 18:56:46

I admit that Elemental Clerics could be represented as Elemental source class(es), but is there any particular reason, beyond theme, that they should be represented that way?


Besides which, haven't all of the setting specific classes so far only been from existing Sources (Arcane, in fact)? So unless that cover was a makeshift and they've decided to scrap the extra Primal or Divine classes from PHB3 for Elemental classes, I don't think it's likely that Athasian Clerics will use the Elemental source.

#4

branotheblades

Aug 31, 2009 19:05:00

I totally agree that the existing divine power source mechanics COULD work as is for Dark Sun.  WotC could easily make a blanket statement about Divine Power such as has been stated above.  "On Athas, all divine power flows from the Elemental Chaos."  Quick, easy, and plausible.  It also allows all the existing divine classes a place on Athas.


However, I would LOVE to see something from the Elemental Power source represented.  While I doubt there will be multiple classes available, its possible WotC might throw us a bone and have one new class that uses this new power source.  Something that could use either all of the elements or could choose one element out of several options.

#5

Tyranthraxus

Aug 31, 2009 20:38:50

Interesting view, but by the same token Id like to see the Elemental Clerics still be restricted in some way. Ie they cannot use powers with an opposing energy type.


 


It will definetly be interesting to see what DArksun does to Clerics, however Im more worried what Clerics will do to Darksun. Darksun is a place of restrictions (Clerics only use some armor/weapon types because of religous restrictions) but I dont see that Clerical feature carrying into 4e. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

#6

branotheblades

Aug 31, 2009 22:31:58

The talk of 2e cleric weapon restrictions brought something interesting to mind.  Although I haven't seen it, I know that AV2 contains tatoos as magical items.  Maybe Athasian clerics could have either tatoos or brands as their holy symbols.  The "powers" of Athas aren't as kind as those of the core.  Maybe the elementals and sorceror kings "take their pound of flesh" in exchange for granting spells to their supplicants.  Thematically I think this could fit very well.


I don't think the restrictions will carry over either, but maybe each element has a favored weapon type.  Blunt for earth. Ranged for air. etc.

#7

calronmoonflower

Sep 01, 2009 2:13:57

One thing that springs to mind is the domain feats linked to an element.
Utilizing them would make clerics more elemental.

#8

marius4

Sep 03, 2009 0:32:18

Hey, I like this idea of a surprise Elemental power source class as the Player's Guide class.  They've given us a preview of Shadow, so why not Elemental?  The fact that the previous setting classes were Arcane is irrelevant, imho.


If they rework the Divine classes and add a bunch of stuff to them.....I dunno.  Fluff is malleable, but if it's that different why don't they just come up with something new?  I don't mean to be flippant, but I think maybe one reason they might come up with something new for the DS cleric is just cause it'd be "cool."  =)  You know what I mean?  They can't just do everything uber-logically or it would get boring and predictable.


Another point...I don't see DS "clerics" and templars as drawing from the same power source, fluff-wise, at all.  It could work, yes, but it seems odd to me with the other options available.


Hm.  Just some thoughts for now. 

#9

rainbringer

Sep 09, 2009 3:13:29

Hi,


I have yet to read the 4E rules in depth (I expect Dark Sun 4E will be the first foray into the system for me); my knowledge thus far is based on the introductory articles. Having said that, I would like to see an elemental power source.


I have no problem with a complete disregard for the paraelemental tropes found in 'Earth, Air, Fire & Water' - although some of the ideas were interesting and worth keeping I've written about this before on another thread and I prefer Denning's vision of keeping it locked to the four core elements. Reading the announcement for Dark Sun 4E by James Wyatt gives me some hope that this is the path the designers will follow.


As far as the templars and the sorceror kings are concerned: from the original material my understanding is that the SKs became conduits for elemental power that they themselves were unable to use but were able tap and confer on their servitors. Following that logic the power source remains the same: elemental. The fact that the SKs set themselves up as gods makes no difference in my opinion and considering Athas' cosmological nature a divine power source seems nonsensical. Basically, elemental versions of divine spells could be the way forward.


Still, we'll have to wait and see... 

#10

big_goon

Sep 09, 2009 12:01:42

I shouldn't point this out, but it would make sense that Elemental "Clerics" get a new power source: the Elemental Power source.They've already done this for another class: the Druid. Actually.. the 2e Divine Druid has become bunch of new classes: the 4e Shaman, Warden and Druid - all from the Primal Power Source.


Anyhow, they've previewed classes for all the new power sources (as mentioned in PHB1): Psionic, Shadow, all except Elemental. Dark Sun is the perfect setting to introduce the Elemental Power source (being so closely tied to the Elemental Chaos).


I'm pretty sure they'll take the time to put some Elemental power source classes together as, at the least, preview material before DS comes out in a year, and probably replace the 2e concept of the Elemental Cleric (which really never made too much sense... reading "Earth, Fire, Water and Air").


Also, WotC has been teasing us with the "war" between the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos: Gods versus Primordials (see also: Githyanki vs Githzerai). The Primordials are going to need some PC followers if they hope to compete against the Gods in this war... Elemental Clerics (or whatever they'll be called) would be an excellent base class to start with.


Besides, if this war spreads to Athas, and the "Gods" are the Sorcerer Kings and are evil, wouldn't it make sense to have the PCs be followers of the completing faction?


Besides... there are so many possibilities, and it'll kick ass. So why not! Right?

#11

morskittar

Sep 09, 2009 14:37:56

The concept of Athas as a battleground between Elemental protagonists and Divine antagonists slots in pretty nicely to the original themes of the setting, as well as tying it to the 4e mechanical and cosmological setup.


You could also align Primal classes to the environmental fight, and Arcane as a wildcard (that defaults to opposition).  Throw Martial and Psionic as the baseline or "neutral" classes, and you have a tightly integrated alternate morality axis for Athas.


I like it!

#12

branotheblades

Sep 09, 2009 15:26:11

I like these ideas too!


If the primordials defeated the gods then the world would be littered with their followers.  It would be great to see the Elemental Power source and all its associated classes on Athas.


(From a practical standpoint though, I think we'll be lucky to see just one new elemental class in the DSPG.  Unless WotC plans to make a 400 + page players guide, which is fine by me!!!, I don't think they'll have room for a full set of elemental classes to replace the divine ones.)

#13

Alphastream

Sep 11, 2009 12:24:20

One of the things I really like about DS is the way there are no deities. There are no personas that seek to influence Athas, no dogmas outside of those attributed to the element itself. The images of a sun cleric or a water cleric... those are just so very different and unique that Pelor or some sea god that the others settings have.


I would like to see a firm wall keeping out other deities. Using the elemental chaos is a good idea, and you can easily have divine feats that are actually elemental in nature and based on the element.


Paraelements... I can see them working, as you would get some variety, but I'm not sure we will get them since the paraelemental planes per say aren't around.

#14

Akriel

Sep 11, 2009 15:25:55

They were talking ''Paraelemental'' linked to the Primal Power Source and name it as Wind, Sand, Sun and Rain.