I'm very curious and enthusiastic about the announcement of making Dark Sun the next D&D 4e setting. I am a long time fan, player and DM of Dark Sun, and still have most of the original 2nd edition material, and I have the .pdf versions of all the rest. I also contributed to the old boards of the athas.org conversion, but was dissatisfied with many core aspects of it, and did my own extensive homebrewed d20 conversion, which my group and I have played on and off ever since 3rd edition came out.
While I will undoubtably get and try out the new reborn Dark Sun D&D setting, I wonder how much change will have to be made to Dark Sun to make it fit D&D 4e, or vice versa. I am curious to see how "easily" 4e mechanics can truly adapt to the Dark Sun setting, as the wizards game designers seem to claim. It seems far more likely to me that it will go the other way around (i.e.: Dark Sun will adapt to D&D 4e)
This is especially true if they maintain the idea that anything D&D fits anywhere D&D, meaning that core book material fits as easily in the core D&D setting, Eberron or Forgotten Realms settings, and anything from either of the latter can fit in each other. I have a hard time seeing how this will hold true with Dark Sun, and frankly, I sure hope it won't.
For example, lets start with the races. I could say that some core races were fairly different mechanically, but I could live with core D&D stats to races and racial feats to represent things like the Elf run or the Dwarf focus mechanically. Most of the other differences are a matter of setting and roleplay. The half-elf might be a hard sell though, as he'd go from a rejected, misunderstood outcast who favors the company of animals, to an outgoing and cosmopolitan diplomat and leader of men. But even then, lets say they make it work.
One could even accept the idea of including new races, but they might need a lot of explanations. Dragonborn could be somekind of lizard men akin to pterrans or ssurans, though the name might have an ominous sound to Athasians, and the breath might indicate some link to ancient dragon magic. They would kind of steal the show for the drays though... anyways. Eladrins come from the feywild... ok... maybe thats somekind of artificial magical dimension created by ancient elven preservers to escape the Cleansing Wars. I guess.
Tieflings though... Dark sun tried to do something different with fantasy settings, removing core things like angels and demons, divine priests and omnibenevolent or malevolent gods and entities, as well as things like werewolves and vampires, or at least made them completely different (pyreen shapechangers and thrax, respectively). There are no devils or demons on Dark Sun, and as such, no tieflings. You may make them somekind of defiling magic mutants or experiment, but if not you need some devil blood, and as such, access to somekind of hell or abyss plane, which is definately not Dark Sun.
And then you look at the PHB2, and it gets out of control. Goliaths I could live with, but Devas? Same problem as tieflings. Shifters? No lycantropy in Athas, at least not yet. Gnomes? Half-orcs? By definition, these races can't be on Athas, because they're extinct, and the means by which they became extinct are very much part of the core of the setting. And this becomes even worse when you take the MM races in. Orcs, goblins, bugbears, drow? Dare I say Warforged??? You could go and say that these races are simply very rare, and that the cleansing wars didn't quite kill off any race after all, but it really seems a stretch and kind of kills the idea behind the setting, which is doing fantasy different.
And it doesn't seem to me it could work roleplay-wise either. I mean, how do you figure average athasians will react when a warforged stumbles through a city gate? Templars love to confiscate magic items, what do you think will happen then? Or if orcs are nearly extinct, how rare would you think a half-orc is, and good luck with the character backstory.
I could talk about classes, magic, equipment, planes, gods, and all the rest, but you get the point.
It seems to me a 4e Dark Sun setting can stand well on its own using full D&D 4e mechanics without having to put EVERYTHING D&D in it. It seems the only way you'll truly make something different, but also truly have Dark Sun.
So, what do you think? What can/should/must stay or go from D&D/Dark Sun to have us a 4th edition core version of Dark Sun?
Oh, one more thing though. If you don't like Dark Sun, please refer to another thread to point it out. If what you're looking for in a new campaign setting is more races/classes/feats/powers to add to your own homebrew or current core setting, I think you missed the point of having a new campaign setting, and frankly, even wizards' point of choosing Dark Sun for it. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
I guess it boils down to whether you want 4e DS to obey the letter or the spirit of the law.
If you want it to follow the letter of the law then the only option is to take the original box set and convert each element found there to 4e mechanics while adding nothing new.
If you want to follow the spirit of the law then you must look at several areas to determine what "feels" like DS.
1 Athas is a desert wasteland. The environment is one of, if not THE toughest opponent you will face. WotC needs to develop 4e mechanics to show the effect of the environment on the PCs.
2 Magic works differently on Athas. This encompasses both arcane and divine (now primal?). Arcane magic drains the land, and to a lesser extent any living creature nearby. Divine energy is granted by elemental spirits or from the Sorceror Kings. Primal magic (in 4e terms) will probably stem from spirits of the land. Primal magic could supplant divine magic, at least for all classes except templar. Mechanically all these items would need to be tweaked or expressed in a new mechanic.
3. The races/creatures of Athas are as twisted as the land. In other words, this ain't yo mama's halflings. Hairless dwarves, tall nomadic elves, feral flesh-eating halflings are all examples of something common turned topsy turvy. "New" races such as half-giants, thri-kreen, and muls also appear. Staples such as gnomes and orcs are long extinct. This might be the trickiest part of the debate. Do you include only those races from the original box set or does Athas have room for new and different races and still remain the Athas we've grown to love. This will probably be an individual choice. I tend to believe that what was extinct stays extinct. What's new COULD have a place if WotC can find an interesting and plausible reason for their existence. (I like the idea of eladrin births being a "throwback" to the ancient bloodlines of elves.)
4. Everything on Athas is bigger, badder, and more brutal than your world. PCs started at 3rd level in 2e because they HAD to in order to survive their first encounter. In 4e that's not necessarily the case anymore. I guess the question here is does WotC feel they can do justice to the brutality of Athas while keeping the plug and play design of 4e alive. I think they could, but I have to admit that I liked playing a character that would be over-powered in any other setting.
5. Resources are scarce on Athas. This is probably the easiest conversion. 4e does not rely as heavily on equipment as other editions so it should be no problem restricting armor, items, etc. Also I believe the DMG2 is supposed to have some type of reward system that can replace items. This should work nicely in DS.
Others can probably add other elements that they feel are crucial to Athas. Is there anything that would "kill" 4e DS if included or left out? What are the must haves and must not haves for you?
Dark Sun original box was a twist of D&D 2nd Edition and every old stuff first box will return (Mul and Thri-Kreen). I think the 4E original stuff can receive the same twist.
New 4E Races to Darksunified (New Racial Power?):
PHB1: Tiefling (demonic spawn of the abyss/ elemental chaos), Eladrin (fit with arcanic athasian elve feel), Dragonborn (inspired by pterrans/dray/ssuran)
PHB2: Goliath (Half-Giant?), Deva (more nature or psionic, pyreen?), Half-Orc (Dead), Shifters (Dead), Gnome (Dead)
Other: Genasi, Warforged (obsidian and wood psionic living construct)
I see every class accessible since they are now more generic, some power sources maybe more rare (Divine, Arcane) than other.
I'm very interested in seeing how they handle that aspect of the new rules: are they going to kitchen sink it, or are they going to do what Dark Sun did when it first came out? Twist and shake things up! Make it NOT like the usual run-of-the-mill D&D world, break the rules.
...half-elf...an outgoing and cosmopolitan diplomat and leader of men.
What? Seriously? Is that what half-elves are in 4E? Because that's exactly what I've been doing with them for nearly a decade now, in my Theshaar campaign. All the nobles and "favored sons" of the Southern Empire have elven blood (ie: they're half-elves).
Oh, and I learn about this Feywild: for five years I've been working on-and-off on this document about elves for D&D and how they live in faerie, which is the wild magic of nature, and how the elves and mystical fey creatures are formed from it. Also part of the campaign I mention above.
Back when 3E came out I discovered what I'd done with the 2E Psionicist was 3E's Sorcerer class. So I have to keep wondering if WotC has a secret pipe into my brain...
I'm not convinced about Tieflings coming from "the elemental chaos". Sounds more like Genasi to me, which by the way would fit nicely in Dark Sun, although I'd still make them rare. As for the Abyss, the thing is there is no Abyss in Dark Sun, nor is there Hell, or Heaven for that matter, which is why there are no devils, demons or angels, or good and evil gods. That is one of the core things which sets Dark Sun apart from traditional medieval fantasy settings. It might be argued they come from the grey, or from some defiling magic experiment, but they still feel wrong in this setting.
I'll give another example of why I think it would be a mistake to claim everything D&D could fit in the Dark Sun setting.
Take the adventure "Keep on the Shadowfell"
First off, make it Keep on the Grey I guess, and Orcus is probably a false god for the cultists, or remove the Orcus idea completely. I thought about making the bad guys agents of a Sorcerer King, but then why bother with the secrecy? They'd just enlist all the villagers from... Winterhaven, yeah that'll have to change as well, lets say Safehaven. Anyways, they need to be rogue cultists so I say make Kalarel a defiler who wants to raise an undead army and has heard of this ancient keep built over this gate to the Grey thousands of years ago. That'd make a good Dark Sun baddie plot. It will need tweaking though, but it could be done.
It gets problematic when you look at Kalarel's minions: He get a goblin and hobgoblin tribe to work for him, and sends a goblin agent to hire a nearby kobold tribe, and has a gnome agent try to search the site of a dragon's grave. Sure, that'll fit nicely into Dark Sun! ;)
At least 4e makes it easier to swicth monsters since they're all classified by role and level, but you'll still have to switch over half the monsters in the adventure to make it work. That's beside all the cosmetic, and sometimes mechanical, changes to the village (escaped slaves village?, merchant outpost?), the terrain the adventure takes place in (lake, forests, river), the magic items and treasure, the background of some NPCs, etc.
Simply put, it could be done, but it will need major changes, and unlike Eberron or Forgotten Realms, core D&D products can't be said to simply fit into Dark Sun as is or with slight adjustments.
This, by the way, is perfectly fine! If you want a different setting, its perfectly logical that it will have a different cosmology, different races, monsters, classes, items, etc.
I agree that when you include something, a race or a class, for example, it would be much more logical and functional to leave its mechanics 99% as it is in core, with maybe cosmetic or background changes, or maybe change a power source but not the powers, and then add to powers and abilities with more options or feats. That's ok.
However, when a race/class/item or whatever requires too much tweaking or a shaky explanation for why it could be included, just don't include it. You don't break anything and don't take anything away from D&D as a whole, you just define what it is to play in the Dark Sun setting.
I dont have problem with Demon Lords since they are no Gods. It's true that the original box doesn't list Demons (Tanar'ri) & Devils (Baatezu) but the Revised does in page 89 of the The Age of Heroes.
If you check in the official Dark Sun Adventures, they have one demon in it:
Dragon's Crown: a Nabassu demon p. 51 in Book 1.
Dark Sun also seem to have a planar gate (Revised Wanderer Chronicles p 117, Crimson Monolith).
On my part, in 4E i see the presence of the Abyss (pure destruction = great) but not of the Nine Hells (soul stuff = not appropriate).
The original announcement mentioned something about Athas could be a "what-if" example of the primordials defeating the gods. If this premise does make it into the new mythology of Athas it would allow several new options to Dark Sun.
First, assuming that the primordials defeated the gods, I think it could be reasonable to imagine that the Elemental Chaos absorbed the Astral Sea. This keeps the elemental feel to Athas while keeping deities non-existent. It also solves any problem with being cut off from the higher planes. They just no longer exist.
Second, IF WotC was adamant about allowing tieflings or even devas there would still be a plausible explanation. Tieflings could have still made a deal with devils when they still existed. In fact, Asmodeus' betrayal could have been the turning point in the war that let the primordials triumph. Devas could have appeared eons ago as well. Having said this, I think if these two races are included they need lots of fluff tweaking. Tieflings could have been a Pristine Tower mutation that bred true. Or they could have made a deal with some primordial and have a similar backstory. Devas could be the haunted remnants of the divine forces. They could also be the reborn spirit of a race exterminated during the Cleansing Wars. Or they could be some mutation from the Pristine Tower.
I don't think they should try to cram everything from 4e into Dark Sun, but if WotC can come up with a cool twist and a plausible explanation without destroying the spirit of the original, I would be all for it.
A) Do as I have done, make Athas the world of "Mutation"! ;)
now, I don't mean that in the normal sci-fi way. If you take the old fluff, in which it noted that many creatures, Humans too, were mutated from the norms...well, it makes you think?
And then in the official timeline (even though I hate it), you have the Pristine Tower, which randomly mutates those who get near it....
This lead me to a completely new tack for Athas! I allow damn near anything, as a mutation, BUT, they can still look Human etc.
As noted in the fluff in original boxed set, even Humans don't look normal very often, having mutations and variations from our norms, so hey, works for me!
For example, a pal wanted to play a goliath, but their characters for the story HAD to be nobles of Tyr, and that's part of what got me thinking about all this.
So I figured, what the hell: mutations...why not? his character looks human, but has the stats etc of a goliath.
Why? well the character is an Avenger, and I made his backstory that he'd encountered some of the ancient undead priests of times past who burn for revenge on the deiflers and sorceror kings, their gift was to change him and endow him with powers as a tool of revenge, so he "Mutated" but still looks Human.
BINGO! that solves about everything ;)
Dragoonborn cna be dray or mutants of the waste. Devas can be the souls of preservers or druids of old who refuse to pass on, eager to end the sorceror kings lives!
B) yes gear is a problem, 3rd and 4th ed is balanced around gear but a good Dark Sun game should make items damn hard ot get indeed. Alas at moment I just give out standard items for their levels, otherwise game balance goes out the window. Hopefully the PHB3 stuff iwll help here
Note that Athas can provide many variations on gear. I have chain mail for example in my DS games made with baked cermaics as rings, pass through each other and hardened using psionics. Chitin for leather or hide armour, even plate. Drake hide was armour back in 2nd ed, so it's perfect for plate amrour now. etc etc
C) I see Athas as having thriving psionic crafters/merchants. Athas is a dying world, not a STUPID world! :p So psionics etc makes materials strong as iron or bronze, etc
it's not perfect though as it's expensive and a "psionically tempered chisel" for example isn't easy sharpened like steel is. So it's ok for adventurers etc but metal's still better for somethings (like against braxat which have damage reduciton only beaten by iron)
And , iron attracts so-uts...
D) Arcane magic does NOT drain the land: defiling magic drains it! It has never ever made sense that "all" arcane magic drains, when it patently cannot do so, there's mumbo jumbo about preservers with rites to stop it etc but it's stupid:
so in the middle of a major battle a preserver calls time out, to perform a ritual?
Or pulls out only enough for their magic but in that case why is the defiler doing the exact same spell but also turning the land ot ash?
Ah, totally paradoxically dumb rubbish!! It's DEFILERS and them alone who are the "drainers". They "cheat" at spell casting hence they are more powerful, by sucking life energy to increase their powers. Being more powerful and evil/uncaring, they wiped out the preservers who hated their guts for perverting magic and endangering everyone.
E) have inferior quality materials result in weapons brekaing on a roll of 1, totally broken. simple neat mechanic, you could also add -1it/damage penalty if wish. magic items though are NOT inferior quality.
note that agafari wood (an offical Dark Sun material) is hard as bronze (so never any penalties it's not heavy enough etc to make good blaed wepaons except maybe an axe),
and obsidian is MUCH harder and sharper than steel but fragile, so a longsword of obsidian would break unless psioncially or magically strengthened, or "psionically tempered" as I call it. You could use it for daggers, handaxes , spears and "machituchils" (swords set with hundreds of obsidian chips, much like a machete)
I've seen many of these types of discussions popping up on a variety of boards. It seems to boil down to a concern over preserving (lol) the 'FEEL' of Dark Sun and including the new races found in 4E.
I happen to fall into the preservation camp. But if WotC releases the material with the new races, I would still give it a chance.
I think that much of the worry comes from players who might LOVE playing dragonborn or LOVE playing Tieflings and the idea that they wouldn't be included in the official release vexes them most sorely.
But as a long time fan of the setting I recall that when the 2E boxed set came out, it was without many of the core 2E races. But they replaced what they took away with races that lent themselves to the feel of the setting. This is precisely why Dark Sun has enjoyed such avid, albeit underground, popularity over all these years.
This is not to say that Dragonborn, Warforged, Tieflings or Deva's can't fit into Dark Sun. I've read some truly inspired ideas on just how they could be worked in. But to those die-hard Dragonborn players I ask... would it be so awful if your dragonborn was now called a dray or pterran? Mr. Half-Orc... would you mind it if you were known as a Tarek? Well, with the comensurate fluff make-over.
I agree that most any of the 4E races could be played in Dark Sun. But they really should be reskinned and fluffified to preserve Dark Sun's feel. To those who have yet to play Dark Sun, the feel of this setting is what roped me in. I didn't care that I couldn't play a core 2E race. So much that was signature to this setting was offered.
And well... it rocked!
Razor767: You got a good point there. As fan of Dark Sun, we have many questions regarding Original Box Vs Revised Box vs 4th Edition .
Since timeline will be that of the original box. They are as follow:
- How much ''new'' 4E race will be in Dark Sun?
- How the Athasian planar system will work/be different than 4E?
- How much of the Divine Power Source will be in Dark Sun?
- How many classes won't be available?
- Will we see the revised box map or maybe an even bigger map of Athas?
- Will Dregoth/Saragar/Rajaat be there?
- Will Half-Giant be different than Goliath/playable in Dark Sun 4E?
- Will Mul, Thri-kreen, Dray, Pterran, Aarakocra return/merge with ''new'' race of 4E?
- Will Sorcerer-King/Dragon be in the Epic 21-30 or 30+ power level?
- How the low-magic items, low-metal will be implemented in 4E mechanics?
Just to clarify Silverblade.
The original 2e box set rules book states on page 59 under the heading Wizardly Magic: " Wizards draw their magical energies from the living things and life-giving elements around them."
So basically, ALL arcane magic drains life. The primary difference is that defilers drain ALL the energy they can with no regard to their actions while preservers draw only what is needed for their spells in order to keep from killing anything. Defilers suck so much life-energy out that they reduce plants to ash and leave creatures with a queasy feeling. Preservers are slower and more wide-ranging when they draw power so that the plants (or creatures) they drain from have sufficient life left to replenish what was taken.
I'm not trying to argue here. You are right that only defiling drains all life. However, there is a fine line that all preservers must be aware of every time they cast a spell or they too can defile the land. It's a combination of the Athasian rule of magic and the differing philosophies of how to use said magic.
branotheblades,
aye, I know and I also recall it going on about rituals done to restore the vitality after casting spells...(not udnoing defiling, but for when preservers cast spells)
And that is just NOT going to fly, sorry Why?
Again, if a defiler casts a Fireball, the area turns ot ash, SAME spell as a preserver, same area, preserver doesn't turn it to ash, in fact the preserver can stand there all day casting every spell he knows...and not drain out the life. See what mean?
Also, the Wanderer wasn't a wizard, he was a psion iirc?
Also in 1st ed's DMG it stated that the power for a spell doens't come form the caster as th enrgy required for a 3rd leve spell would suck his life out...in other words, in the mechanics of 1st/2nd ed, spel cannot be cast form the life force of creatures without snuffing them out, as the amount required is so high.
Ergo, preservers should and must just cast spells as normal, with perhaps some (fluff) mumbo jumbo added in as a ritualistic way to remember to NOT defile.
Where as defilers suck life force out to boost their spell's powers, hence they are more powerful than preservers at spell casting (which they are), but it's a dirty nasty "trick" they use.
Preservers are lot more cautious and hesistant about spell casting than typical D&D wizards, with damn good reason.
Oh, the designers noted that 4th ed Dark SUn, divine spell casters would have a hard time of it or be rarer or both, iirc. Which makes sense. Elemental clercs were massivley outnumbered by templars for example.
The "offical" hsitory is going to be ignored, it's starting at the outset of the 1st boxed set, HURRAY! As a majority of us loathe the novels and lousy way the setting was butchered and a crpapy history slammed into the setting :/
Those who like the "official history" can still have it, as that was said by the 4th ed designers to be just a "Possible outcome of events".
I preffer Athas ot be MY Athas, with a lot of mystery, thank you very much and NO bloody Democracy in Tyr! (OMG how dumb was that?! it was as bad as would be adding iron mines and return of the gods, ugh)
In my Athas, the mindflayers tried ot put out the Sun a vastly long time aog, they screwed up, gods got killed, Athas got severed form Astral Plane and it's crystal shell sealed eternally...or perhaps something else, as only the Sorceror Kings perhap sknow the real truth and they sure aren't telling!
In my history, the illithids made more and more creatures have psionics, so they coudl harvest some tiny fraction of that power, over centuries, to power their "sun darkening" attmept. Someone one though, discovered by accident, that using psionics and arcane magic, he foudn a way to suck life force too boost his spells, that was how defiling started. Defilers became more poweful, paranoid, more evil, wars started for and against them.
So-uts and other creatures were made as living weapons, scorched earth weapons, they destroyed metal and brick and structures to eliminate entire basis of organized life much like a nuclear weapon but safer, the belgoi maybe such too. So between them all, the once fertile world of Athas was ver near destoryed entirely.
Works for me! ;) I preffer that idea to the "Offical" history. but, it doesn't matter, it's sitll only a possible history.
Okay, I'm not a longtime Darksun fan. I know of it, but I've never played a campaign there. (I got into D&D with the release of 3e, so I never did the 2nd edition thing at all.) Here're my thoughts.
I like the concept of the setting. That said, I have no strong feelings for the particulars of it.
In other words, I like the idea of "doing D&D different" and the post-apocalyptic feel, but I'm not married to the specific concepts that make up the world. If they do publish the book with limits in that say "Okay, you can't be a half-orc or tiefling in this world" or something, that's lovely, and I won't whine about losing out on my favorite race. (There's so much to do in D&D, I can't understand anyone who gets upset when their one particular favored race/class gets cut or changed.)
But I'm also not married to the concepts. If they decide that it's more important to give players a way to be tieflings in this game, hey, fine. It's more important (in my opinion) to maintain the feel of darksun than it is to retain the particulars of the rules.
Does that make sense? Muls and evil wizards are not what makes darksun what it is. If they maintain the basic sense of the setting but change some of the particular racial backgrounds and flavor text, that's fine by me.
How much ''new'' 4E race will be in Dark Sun?
I am unconcerned about this. I am more concerned that if WotC gives the kitchen sink treatment, we'll see gnomes and half-orcs suddenly un-genocided. If any new 4e race appears, we know it won't exist as it does in the 4e PHB, they will be getting the DS treatment like elves, dwarves, and halflings received. When your imagination opens up to unlimited possibilities for twisting and corrupting 4e races, you can make nearly anything fit well with DS.
How the Athasian planar system will work/be different than 4E?
I used to be concerned, but after dwelling on it, my only concern now is how the Black will be treated. There's room for the Shadowfell, IMO, it'll be the Gray. There's room for Feywild, there is precedent in the centers of druid groves.
How much of the Divine Power Source will be in Dark Sun?
I'm not concerned with how much Divine power source there will be, my questions is "what is the appropriate role for the Divine power source in DS. I think the old 2e cleric roll will be filled with 4e shamans, for instance, and the 2e templar is nicely filled by 4e Divine power source classes.
How many classes won't be available?
I might grumble, but I'd willingly accept all 4e classes in a 4e DS.
Will we see the revised box map or maybe an even bigger map of Athas?
I hope the revised boxed set map dies a permanent death. I'm fine with a map no larger than the original boxed set of the Tyr region. If they make a larger map, I hope that it finally matches the original boxed set's ACTUAL description of the surrounding region. That is, that the tablelands surround the silt sea, with the Ringing Mountains ringing the tablelands. Would that mean that the Last Sea and Saragar is gone? No loss in my book.
Will Dregoth/Saragar/Rajaat be there?
The handling of Dregoth is certainly important, especially if WotC uses dray as the placeholder for dragonborn. It seems obvious that Rajaat must be there if they are returning to the original boxed set's timeline.
Will Half-Giant be different than Goliath/playable in Dark Sun 4E?
IMO, the goliath makes better sense for tareks. Tareks weren't originally playable races, but they were in the original proposal to TSR management as a PC race.
Will Mul, Thri-kreen, Dray, Pterran, Aarakocra return/merge with ''new'' race of 4E?
Pterran and aarakocra I can do without. Mul and Thri-kreen simply must be there. Dray . . . touchy subject depending on how Dregoth is handled.
Will Sorcerer-King/Dragon be in the Epic 21-30 or 30+ power level?
Sorcerer-kings and the Dragon need to be beyond the power of Epic PCs, IMO.
How the low-magic items, low-metal will be implemented in 4E mechanics?
I am not concerned that WotC will do this correct, the interview already mentioned they are planning for this.
[tangent]OMFG is editing posts in this new system totally F.U.B.A.R. !
Also, the Wanderer wasn't a wizard, he was a psion iirc?
It was intimated in the Tribe of one novels that the wanderer was on the path to avangion-hood. I can't recall precisely if supplements hinted at this but I think that perhaps one of the short stories that came with an officially release adventure flip book may have supported this notion.
If it were to be taken as a given that the wanderer was trying to become an avangion, then he would have been a 20+ preserver/20+ psionicist.
Also in 1st ed's DMG it stated that the power for a spell doens't come form the caster as th enrgy required for a 3rd leve spell would suck his life out...
If I'm reading this right, you're referring to 1E D&D. Dark Sun came out during 2E. If I'm reading it wrong then I'm not sure to what you're referring to exactly.
in other words, in the mechanics of 1st/2nd ed, spel cannot be cast form the life force of creatures without snuffing them out, as the amount required is so high.
The third novel in the prism pentad talks about the physical sensations one experiences while in the radius of a defiler's energy gathering. As far as I know, this is the only reference. From reading the Dragon King's hard cover and from the core material it's delineated that casters draw energy from simpler/lower life forms, eg... plants and soil(read microbes). Once a caster reaches lvl 20 as a defiler AND as a psionicist, they can cast dragon magic spells which are a combination of the arcane and the psionic. It's THESE spells that can pull life out of mammals and more complex forms of life.
Now, I want to be clear that I'm referring to what was, not to what should be. Also, since I don't have any material layed out before me, I'm working strictly on memory here. I've read ideas batted around on these and other forums that the difference between defiling and preserving could be handled with feats or even paragon paths. The 2E solution was facilitating a faster leveling schedule for defilers. That doesn't work with 4E (or even 3E) so I too am interested and excited about how WotC will handle this.
1) Well as I don't like the official timeline I don't care about the Black, but for the Grey, a more twisted Athsian form of the Shadowfell would be perfect;)
Athas needs to be cut off from the Astral Plane, that's what keeps gods etc out, and would work fine.
2) 1st and 2nd ed were pretty much the same in many ways. My point still stands though, as preservers CANNOT be "Using up" life energy or they couldn't keep casting spells in the same place all the time, could they?!
That minor aspect needs to change, it *never* made sense. The power for magic has to be external, beyond the bounds of the limitations of the surrounding life forces, or preservers couldn't cast spells very often at all, because they'd be defilers too in effect!
Defilers are more powerful, but they're not THAT much more powerful so defilers must be getting their boost obviously just from the defiling damage they do....think about it a while The Defiling cannot power the Fireball, it cannot, or the preserver who casts the same spell would defile too if it required the same energy. The defiler though leeches out life energy to boost his spells power.
2nd ed didn't have good mechanics for such stuff so they just gave defilers lower XP requirements.
So, in 4th ed what I'd suggets is to have a suite of defiling feats, start with say "Deifler Leech". whenever you cast a spell (you get no choice as a defiler) you're spells get boosted in power, getting a +1 hit/+1 damage bonus.
More feats expand upon this.
3) I like the idea of Avengers being champions of the ancient spirits out to slaughter the Sorceror Kings for what they did to Athas ;)
An elemental priest class or, spell line ups for clerics is needed. 4th ed cleric and Athasian cleric are fine, actually it's just you need elementla based themes/spells for them.
Templars can be *any* class, really. "Templar" is a job description. But mostly cleric
4) 4th ed Dark sun is IGNORING all the stuff after the 1st boxed set, GOOD! no official history etc.
I know how I will deal with these issues personally: that which I find to be irritating will be cut. For example, I don't like Tieflings or Eladrin, so I don't allow them in my homebrew. So I have no issue cutting them out of DS if they creep their irritating way into the setting.
Frankly I think that the designers should just cut the fat and produce a setting with some new ideas, but that is very true to the original.
I'm very curious and enthusiastic about the announcement of making Dark Sun the next D&D 4e setting. I am a long time fan, player and DM of Dark Sun, and still have most of the original 2nd edition material, and I have the .pdf versions of all the rest. I also contributed to the old boards of the athas.org conversion, but was dissatisfied with many core aspects of it, and did my own extensive homebrewed d20 conversion, which my group and I have played on and off ever since 3rd edition came out.
I don't think you'll be very happy, unfortunately. You're a huge fan of the original setting, and that bodes ill, because you're very likely to be strongly attached to the details of the setting. A lot of details are going to change. Much of that will be due to the new mechanical system underneath, which will by nature not work with some of the details that were designed to describe 2nd edition mechanics. Some of it will be due to changes in the philosphy of how players and DMs should interact with each other and with the underlying system. Some of it will be because there was a long history of DarkSun products that self-contradict, and a lot of products that refer to different parts of an official timeline (and they'll need to pick a particular point on that timeline to convert from).
If you come in saying, "Oh, god, I hope they don't change how Thri-kreen tribes work!" and "They better not mess with the Gray!" and so on, you'll be very, very unhappy, and we'll see a thread from you sometime next year grousing about "How could they do this to my VERY FAVORITE SETTING?!"
If, on the other hand, you can moderate your fanboying impulses (we all have them!), you might actually be happy with the end result. It won't be DarkSun as you know it. It'll be the idea of DarkSun, wearing a brand new shiny outfit with some nifty accessories, but they'll be different accessories from the ones you're used to.
As I was saying before -- the concept of DarkSun is post-apocalyptic D&D. It's Mad Max, only Mel Gibson is Braveheart. That'll still be there. A lot of the important bits of the setting will still be there. Some won't.
But if you can find it in you to say "Aw, they cut this thing I always liked. That makes me sad," and not descend into Internet Rage over it, I think you'll find a game you can enjoy even with the changes.
After all, a lot of FR fans are finding that they do like the new FR, even if it's different from the old FR... and a lot of new players are willing to game in FR that never wanted to before. And really, isn't that the most important thing -- having lots of people who want to play the same game as you?
I sure the fluff wont change:
The 7 city-states of the Tablelands and their Sorcerer-Kings as described in the original box.
That arcane magic is hated .
That Athas has a hot crimson sun, low-metal and low-magic, strong psionic.
That ''normal'' races are twisted and bad-ass.
What will change is the crunch:
Races, classes, map larger/smaller/more details, defiling, cleric who worship elemental, epic transformation, psionic enchantment, templar, gladiator
Recently I picked up the hardcover book celebrating 30 yrs of D&D. Y'know... the one with the forward written by Vin Diesel. I had never looked at it before and of course, since the announcement that has us all a'tingle... I flipped straight to the section on Dark Sun. It was pretty cool and for those that are unaware, the working title of this setting was originally 'war world'.
Anyways, one thing did capture my attention and I think it's pertintent to this discussion. They said that if they had it to do all over again... they would NOT have made psionics so prevalent.
Thoughts?
Anyways, one thing did capture my attention and I think it's pertintent to this discussion. They said that if they had it to do all over again... they would NOT have made psionics so prevalent.Thoughts?
Well, the reasoning behind that was that they had psionics on like EVERYTHING, so that every character and every monster had psionics as a major part of their makeup. The problem was that this forced them to use a whole extra subsystem in every single fight.
I do expect to see a reduction here, if only because they aren't going to want to go back and say, "Okay, humans now have this power, and dwaves have this power, and halflings now have this power..." There'll probably be psionic flavored feats for each race, but I don't foresee the sort of 'total conversion' that they did in 2e.
But, on the other hand, psionics is no longer a secondary system, so it'll be a lot more transparent even when they do include psi stuff. A monster that has a psionic force wave just has a close blast power that does push. The fact that it's "psionic" doesn't mean you go look up a different set of rules in 4e, the way it did in 2e.
They said that if they had it to do all over again... they would NOT have made psionics so prevalent.Thoughts?
I think such an alteration will improve access to Dark Sun in the long run, and maybe even improve the setting (though that is a personal opinion and intangible prospect).
It is conceivable that the 4e DS designers may intend for all 4e DS gamers be required to purchase PHB3 to play Dark Sun, or they may find some way to include everything psionic in the 4e DS campaign book. But I doubt they'd go that route.
More likely, I expect that by downplaying psionics in the setting, you could conceivably play Dark Sun with just the PHB, only ever encountering psionics when you encountered specifically statted enemies or monsters or items through the delve format. With 4e psionics not being a secondary subsystem tacked upon everything, like it was in 2e Dark Sun, you can more easily ignore it in your campaign.
The way I see it, a dm can piecemeal psionics into their Dark Sun campaign through items, enemies, and monsters, where all effects are written within the published encounter. Of course, groups will strongly be urged to get the full rules for psionic characters to get the highest value out of the Dark Sun setting.
Ergo, preservers should and must just cast spells as normal, with perhaps some (fluff) mumbo jumbo added in as a ritualistic way to remember to NOT defile.
Where as defilers suck life force out to boost their spell's powers, hence they are more powerful than preservers at spell casting (which they are), but it's a dirty nasty "trick" they use.
Preservers are lot more cautious and hesistant about spell casting than typical D&D wizards, with damn good reason.
2nd ed didn't have good mechanics for such stuff so they just gave defilers lower XP requirements.
So, in 4th ed what I'd suggets is to have a suite of defiling feats, start with say "Deifler Leech". whenever you cast a spell (you get no choice as a defiler) you're spells get boosted in power, getting a +1 hit/+1 damage bonus.
More feats expand upon this.
I always got the impression that defilers, because they were not restricted to preserving their surroundings, could draw the energy faster than preservers to cast their spells. Personally, I would create an initial feat that gave a bonus to initaitive in some way. Perhaps one that had the prerequisites of arcane and that could stack with other Initiative bonus feats. From there they could create a feat chain.
Keenath
aye, if psionics is core, and simple, it's no longer an issue if most creatures have it!
4th ed stuff makes building NPCs and their powers vastly easier and more in tune. It doesn't matter if a power is arcane, martial or psionic, if it knocks you back 4 squares and stuns you, it doesn't matter if it's "Thunderwave", "Sledgehammer smash" or "Telekinetic Blast", you know?
Wonder how they are gonna do the belgoi's calling power? always loved that!....*tinkles a bell*
Mouthymerc
well, my issue of the fact that a preserver would still wipe out life by repeated casting, still stands, so that must change (they CANNOT be drawing life force at all, it's that simple, or they'd kill things by repeated casts, they'd be taking life force energy slow or fast doens't matter)
Giving an initiative boost to defilersis too powerful IMHO, except by maybe paraogn/epic feats, because you can quickly add up a big init bonus anyway with other feats.
I think attack/damage bonuses and other oddities are more likely, OR, a defiling feat whereby you can recast an encounter or daily power by defiling
Hi All,
Also looking forward to Dark Sun next year.
Silverblade:
I think you're partially right - My opinon of the matter regarding preserving and defiling is as follows:
Arcane magic on Athas is inherently dangerous and the line between preserver and defiler is a philosophical one, not mechanical; it's clear from the original sources that both draw their power from life energy - preservers do so with respect for life, defilers do not.
A preserver casts spells with a finesse and grace learned through extreme self-discipline drawing their spell energy from a much wider area than a defiler in order to enable the plant life in the area to recover. A defiler's methods are markedly different; using the same power-source they fuel their spells from a much more concentrated area in a manner akin to raw unchecked greed, leeching all life from the surroundings with every casting.
I agree that a preserver repeatedly casting in the same area would run the risk of defiling. I do not, however, believe that is a reason to change the mechanic. It's a choice: are the preserver's beliefs strong enough to choose death in battle over defiling to save his or her life? Sadira was faced with this choice several times...she chose to defile.
Ultimately, the preserver's path is hard. As far as I'm concerned its a roleplaying asset.
Well said Rainbringer!
Preservers DO drain life from their environment, and if they cast enough spells in one area they WOULD drain it of life.
Defilers are about the quick, easy path. They suck the power needed for their spell from a small an area as possible. That's because it's the quickest and easiest to use. They "squeeze more juice" from a smaller area leaving it reduced to ash. As they cast higher level spells or more spells of the same level or lower, the radius of ash grows since the defiler has to range farther for life-energy to power the spell. Defiler spells are no more powerful than those cast by a preserver. Defilers progressed faster because they didn't saddle themselves with high ideals of responsible spellcasting. (Since 4e classes all progress at the same rate, I'm not sure if WotC WILL give defilers a power boost or some other mechanic to represent their choice.)
Preservers are about responsibility and conservation. They suck the power needed for their spell from a larger area. This takes a little longer because they are pulling only the energy that life around them can spare. However, if the repeatedly cast spells in the same area they can suck that area dry just as a defiler would. That's just how magic works on Athas.
well, my issue of the fact that a preserver would still wipe out life by repeated casting, still stands, so that must change (they CANNOT be drawing life force at all, it's that simple, or they'd kill things by repeated casts, they'd be taking life force energy slow or fast doens't matter)
If reality were a factor, yes a preserver casting in the same location could eventually drain said location of life thus defiling. The thought, though, is that they are more concious of the damage they are doing and therefore more careful of their casting. Either they move to draw from a different location or they reach out farther, drawing the power from a bigger and bigger radius in order to preserve life (or any other ideas you may have). Leave it to the people playing to fluff it the way they want. The point is that preservers have learned to cast their spells in such a way as to not kill the flora around them. I agree that they could and should be run using the arcane classes as they are right now.
Giving an initiative boost to defilersis too powerful IMHO, except by maybe paraogn/epic feats, because you can quickly add up a big init bonus anyway with other feats.
I think attack/damage bonuses and other oddities are more likely, OR, a defiling feat whereby you can recast an encounter or daily power by defiling
Initiative only really matters in the first round. Is it really so bad if they have a high bonus? Also, the feat would have to distinguish itself from others. It would need something more than just a bonus to Initiative/Attack Roll/Damage or whatever. Or maybe not a feat at all, but some sort of defiling action (minor or move) only available to arcane characters that would allow them to do something like add a one-time bonus to either the attack roll or the damage roll and they have to take the action before their attack action.
Mouthymerc,
ah, but when you are talking about a controller, if they have big bonuses that means they can ream the party ragged, as he who gets the 1st AOE controller effect off in the round, gets the most bang for their buck, and defilers are controllers ;)
Mouthymerc,
ah, but when you are talking about a controller, if they have big bonuses that means they can ream the party ragged, as he who gets the 1st AOE controller effect off in the round, gets the most bang for their buck, and defilers are controllers ;)
It's not like they can not focus on inititive now, so I really see no issue. In fact, you could just have a "defiler" wizard take Improved Initiative and chalk it up to them being a defiler for flavour. But, I'm sure people would not be happy with this and would prefer some mechanic to give them a bonus. I'll be interested to see what kind of direction they go in regarding defiling.
Another thing to consider is that 4e defilers are not necessarily wizards. Preserving or defiling stems from how a character uses ARCANE magic so it would affect any arcane caster.
The 2e boxed set had three wizard choices: preserver, defiler, or illusionist. However, the illusionist had to choose whether to be a preserver or defiler as well. Defiling has no bearing on role or class other than that it only affects arcane users.
I don't see WotC continuing with faster advancement for defilers or initiative penalties to those caught in a defiler radius. These were expressions of 2e. 4e has a different toolset to express these things.
Defilers were never more powerful than preservers except that they progressed much quicker due to their lack of regard for the environment. I'm not sure of the best way to express this in 4e. You could give defilers a slight bonus to damage or a feature that allows them to cast spells faster. (at-wills could be cast as minor actions or allow them to reduce the casting time of a spell from standard to minor once per encounter) As for the defiler radius, you could reduce healing within the radius, or cost 1 healing surge for those caught in the radius, or impose a condition (such as weaken or slow) on creatures within the radius.
Well, for those who are concerned about races being included in the setting that aren't supposed to be there (Tieflings, Half-Orcs, Gnomes), I wouldn't worry too much. I think that they'll do what they've done in the past, which is to declare which races are standard PC options, and the occasional sidebar with suggestions for how to include others.
That is, they will probably not include Gnome as a standard PC race, but might have some suggestions for if a player really really wanted to play a Gnome. Working out a cool and unique backstory with the DM is always superior to just saying, "No, sorry, not allowed." In my opinion, of course.
With some creativity and willingness to adapt, there's really no limit to what could be appropriately included.
But, on the other hand, psionics is no longer a secondary system, so it'll be a lot more transparent even when they do include psi stuff. A monster that has a psionic force wave just has a close blast power that does push. The fact that it's "psionic" doesn't mean you go look up a different set of rules in 4e, the way it did in 2e.
Yay for an integrated psi system that works just like everything else! That was my biggest problem with the 2e/3e psionic systems. It was just more specialized/extra event to keep in mind and track. I would like to see widespread psionic use, but I would like to see it integrated better into the setting and the color of the setting (and if they can't do that, then not at all*). As it stood, it seemed more to be a cool idea that no one ever figured out how to really run with, in terms of how it would affect the civilizations, society, technologies, or even adventuring (in terms of gear and loot). It was more: "Cool Xtra powerz! Yay!" than the influential/setting-shaping idea it should have been and was set-up to be.
* One good solution that gets around the problem, if they can't make it work as a central tenet of the setting, would be "Occasional mutant freaks can do strange things using just the power of their minds!" And remove it as a civilization-affecting element of the setting entirely.
Well, for those who are concerned about races being included in the setting that aren't supposed to be there (Tieflings, Half-Orcs, Gnomes), I wouldn't worry too much. I think that they'll do what they've done in the past, which is to declare which races are standard PC options, and the occasional sidebar with suggestions for how to include others.
That is, they will probably not include Gnome as a standard PC race, but might have some suggestions for if a player really really wanted to play a Gnome. Working out a cool and unique backstory with the DM is always superior to just saying, "No, sorry, not allowed." In my opinion, of course.
With some creativity and willingness to adapt, there's really no limit to what could be appropriately included.
I would think the same approach would be used for the classes. Some classes would be standard options, differentiated by setting specific feats. Others (most of the Arcane classes probably...) would be covered in a sidebar of "other classes need lots of work to fit, here are some thoughts...."
FR added the swordmage, and Eberron the Artificer. I think that will continue with DarkSun...and with the Psionic classes being released in PHB 3 we'll see a Defiler/Preserver class or classes in the Dark Sun book. Same class differentiated by a class feature, or as two separate classes we'll have to wait and see.
Mechanically I think the main difference between a FR PC and a DS PC will be in the race features and backgrounds. Class powers, features, skills and feats basically the same. (oh.. and obviously gear would be massivly re-fluffed...)
On top of those differences the Dark Sun setting would layer on the Environmental rules. Buffs or penalties based on keywords ie -5 HP to all powers with the healing keyword, or -1 to hit for all powers with the Frost Keyword ect. ect. An Endurance skill check after each encounter, failure costs you a healing surge. Stuff like that. A giant sign reading "Welcome to Athas. Its hot and sucky here!" Not that the PCs would be able to read it : )
I don't know a whole lot about the 4E system, so I might be completely off here, but might not the defiler and preserver be defined by the TYPE of class they are? I know there's controllers, defenders, etc. So a defiler might be a specific type of arcane class, while perserver might be of a wholly different type. In order to differentiate their styles and use of power.
Defiling and preserving IS Only about arcane classes so on that, I agree with bran
4th ed works on the principle of "KISS", last thing you want is more stuff for the DM to have to deal with so kepe defiling to the user, he has ot sort it out. Thus bonuses ot hit, damage, or recovering an encounter or dialy by use of defiling would be simple and nasty ;)
And defilers ARE more powerful, 2 things prove this:
1) They WON the wars for Athas! That pretty much proves it, hehe
2) In 2nd ed they didn't have all the mechanics we have now, so the designers made defilers gain levels a a lot faster, thus, they again were more powerful. The deginers couldn't give them different effects/bonus and feats as that didn't exist back then.
having defiling as a series of feats is the best thing.
3) it can then fit to any arcane class
4) it shows that deifling is a choice. It's a path you travel and one extremely hard to come back from.
Thanks for the comment Bran.
I've just remembered there was a Dragon article that came out around the same time as 'The Amber Enchantress' called 'The Preserver's Choice'. From what I remember it tackled this subject... I'd have to find the magazine to see how it was done though...
having defiling as a series of feats is the best thing.
Its an option, but consider:
If all acrane classes are standard for Dark Sun then the default choice is that the character is a Preserver. (because its an either or choice... you're a defiler or a preserver.)
In order to become a defiler you have to spend a feat. So that feat better be good. As in better than all the other feats good, because you're slapping the whole party with a penalty to get your boost as well as spending a feat. So we're talking better than White lotus Acadamy feats to balance these costs out.
All arcane characters would start out as preservers unless the defiling feat was the first feat you took. Plus you can respec in and out of feats as you level so you've got the potential of flip flopping back and forth between defiling and preserving. And its not a tactical choice, it would be a choice you make when you level.
And think about it... a Defiler Bard? Feycharging Preserver Swordmages? I'm not real keen on those, but YMMV. I'd rather see a Preserver class and a Defiler class rather than a wizard and a wizard with a conditional bonus to necrotic damage.
Defiler/Preserver could also be done as a Class Feature added on to all Arcane classes. Or as an environmental rule. Like "All Powers with the Arcane Keyword may add +1 to damage, but all Allies in 10 squares take a -1 to all skill rolls until the end of the Defilers next turn. Bonus and penalty increase by 1 at Paragon and again at Epic." -- something like that. But then you're in the situation of the Bard's healing hurts sometimes.
The bard may be tricky to convert to DS. Originally an Athasian bard didn't gain arcane spells. He was a master of poisons and intrigue. Now that a bard is inseperable from arcane magic, I'm not sure how or if it will show up in DS. For DDI members, you could slide the assassin into the original bards roll fairly easily I would imagine. For non-DDI subscribers, they could probably use a rogue build for a fair approximation. A 4e bard COULD exist on Athas. It would just need some fluff that fits the feel of DS and the philosophy of 4e.
The bard may be tricky to convert to DS. Originally an Athasian bard didn't gain arcane spells. He was a master of poisons and intrigue. Now that a bard is inseperable from arcane magic, I'm not sure how or if it will show up in DS. For DDI members, you could slide the assassin into the original bards roll fairly easily I would imagine. For non-DDI subscribers, they could probably use a rogue build for a fair approximation. A 4e bard COULD exist on Athas. It would just need some fluff that fits the feel of DS and the philosophy of 4e.
A character that is sneaky/clever and uses weapons and poisons is fairly easy to throw together in 4e. Avenger, Rogue, Ranger, Warden... pretty much any class if you're willing to throw a few feats at it. There is a poisioner multiclass feat, and Alchemy ritual feat for creating poisions... nature skill and stealth.
The 4e Bard class from PHB2? An implement wielding, chainmail wearing, Arcane spellcaster with Healing abilities? Tough sell on Athas IMO. Reskin the abilities to remove the singing and dancing feeling, but the Bard is still stuck with whatever mechanics the devs choose to place on Arcane casters, healing magics, and metal armor or have less AC then normal.
I think a singing and dancing roguish character fits great in, say, a Tyrian market place, pickpocketing and lulling people into horrible fates. Or they could be reflavored into a whirling dervish with a controller element. As long as you don't associate the old DS bards with 4e bards (class names are really just metagame labels most of the time anyways), I think 4e bards definately have a place in Dark Sun with some feats added to push the flavor down the road of darkness.
If you want any sort of semblance to reality, people on Athas will dance and have some kind of music. So bards should be able to be worked in. Chainmail is not so likely to be available, obviously... but some sort of equivalent will probably be there.
Far more fun to work out how things can be worked in, rather than just say "No, not appropriate." Find a way to make it appropriate. Then everybody is happy and has fun playing the game, right?
And here I thought the new bard would work beautifully in Dark Sun. Anyone can be an assassin, which is what the bard was pretty much portrayed as. If you wish to focus on the roguish aspects, choose the rogue class (multi-class into the poisoner) or many other combinations. The new bard, though, can be portrayed as light and fluffy or vicious and vindictive. He can still be a storyteller and still be edgy. Half the comedians out there are like that. Powers like Vicious Mockery and Satire of Bravery are already there for those darker bards. You can change the name of many others to fit the concept, too. I found the bards in 2E Dark Sun to rather lackluster as they seemed to amount to nothing more than rogues with the ability to handle and create poisons. Now that they are an arcane class, I imagine that they will have the option to choose to defile (depending on the mechanics), something which I think would very much add to the edginess of the Athasian bard.
Every culture in the world, living or dead, sings and dances. Just sayin'. If you want any sort of semblance to reality, people on Athas will dance and have some kind of music. So bards should be able to be worked in. Chainmail is not so likely to be available, obviously... but some sort of equivalent will probably be there. Far more fun to work out how things can be worked in, rather than just say "No, not appropriate." Find a way to make it appropriate. Then everybody is happy and has fun playing the game, right?
One of my favorite things about 4th edition is that anyone can be a minstral, singer, artist, or whatever. No skills or feats required. You want your Warlord to be an accomplished musician with a wonderful singing voice? *poof* Mine was a sculptor. Dancing Ranger? Done! Poet thief? Sure!
No need to be a bard to be a bard. : )
What about the other two core books, the books for DMs: the DMG and MM...?
Angels and Devils are rare. Dragons are limited down to 1 (and the Dragon of DS is not Red, nor Green nor Gold). Iron Golems are non-existant. Goblins, Orcs, Hobgobins and Centaurs are dead (the Wemics and Lizardmen too). Anything to do with water and forests - koa-toa, lizardmen, etc, are really rare and limited to only select areas. Rust Monsters will starve! Even the traditional DnD staples, like Giants, are different in Dark Sun.
In essence, 50% (or more?) of the MM and MM2 are totally un-compatible! The other half falls mainly into either undead, elementals or player races. Not much choice there.
How is WotC going to get around this? They mention some cool rules for Belgoi (which sounds exciting!), but does that mean they'll be compiling an entire MM strictly for DS? They didn't do this for FR nor for Eberron... except for a few select monsters. So, if they do this which monsters truely define the DS MM universe, and how much can be converted from existing, useless, monsters. For example, we could probably convert the high fantasy dragons into DS drakes without much problem.
But does this fit with the feel of darksun? Are monsters in Dark Sun necessary? What's different from traditional high fantasy combats to dark sun combats? And don't tell me it's the lack of armor...
Any help out there for those trying to create DS adventures...
Dragons are limited down to 1 . . .
Not true.
At least according to The Verdant Passage.
The heroes were mocked by the halfling Nok for thinking there was a single dragon, Nok insisted there were many dragons around Athas. That if Kalak achieved Dragon-hood, then the Dragon of the Tyr-region would push the Kalak-dragon out . . . into the Forest Ridge of the halflings. This was Nok's incentive for giving the heroes the Heartwood Spear that slayed Kalak . . . to prevent a new dragon that would settle across the Ringing Mountain in the halfling forest.
Dragons are limited down to 1 . . .
Not true.
Haha... touche!
Dragons are limited down to 1 . . .
Not true.Haha... touche!
Agreed with ya 100% here but this is reminicent of how what was written in a novel was automatically converted to canon.
I have nothing to add...I just wanted to be included in the conversation.
Okay fine, I'll contribute. I find it amusing that three different posters on this thread are all using Jace Beleren avatars.
There, I've done my duty. Now, please, continue. (Goes to make popcorn.)
The most likely scenario, given R&D's philosophy, is that they provide new rules to cover most of the old options, and then allow this content to be used in any setting. And, they likely allow any other content into DS, with DM approval. This fits their design mentality. I'm not saying I like it, but I understand it. It is the most beneficial business scenario. Also, R&D has said in the past that they expect to have very few world-centric books. Note the lack of follow-up FR or Eberron books. These two DS books are likely it, and then 2011 brings a different world. That's not all bad, but it is the new philosophy.
I think, ideally, you have enough in the two books to run Athas as Athas. You have rules for Athasian armor and weapons, but you could find anything from other books in ruins. You have rules for defiling, with a suitable benefit, but perhaps keep the other book's arcane options as the preserving route. Or, you apply a campaign penalty to arcane, such that it equates with the penalty for weapons/armor. Otherwise, you have to just about rule out other classes that use the arcane source... that seems unlikely given their strategy. While you can recast the bard as an Athasian Entertainer with the poison/assassin aspects, I'm doubtful they will do this for all classes. I think they will add rather than replace/convert.
But, maybe I'm just saying that to keep myself from being disappointed. Regardless, my real hope is that the two books really allow you to run Athas on their own, without needing to bring in everything from other books (plate mail, etc.).
They're going to publish the two books. If I have an idea for a cool character concept, I don't want a DM to deny it... I want to figure out how to make it fit so everybody's happy. I love the idea of a creepy chitinous Warforged or a Deva who is the incarnation of a powerful nature spirit or or or...
Agreed with ya 100% here but this is reminicent of how what was written in a novel was automatically converted to canon.
That's a reasonable assumption. But in this case, I'm pretty sure it is a case of something many setting designers do, and that is release public information and keep a catalog of other information that is kept non-public "secrets" but is used to guide authors, or to be revealed at determined moments later.
This non-public information is equally "canon" as that which is written publicly. I believe the revelation of more than one dragon is that kind of information.
Frankly, though, I preferred there being a single dragon in the world. Seemed somehow cooler and different from every other setting at the time I first read it.