Dark Sun 4e and Magic - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Dark Sun 4e and Magic

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Kye_Tyrad
Jul 09, 2008 11:14:32 In previous DS the wizards could encrypt their spellbooks onto a staff or into their robes etc... Is anyone planning to still have their wizards encrypt their spells onto another object?? If so would you treat this as a spellbook or just as a scroll that has some of the magic embedded into it?
#2
Ravenspyre
Jul 09, 2008 13:19:18 In DS, this is their spellbook. Rituals and such would be such encrypted, and of coruse the wizard would put their spells on their staves or wands or what have you. But all things considered you would have to decide how many pages worth of information a single object could hold. I believe a staff, for instance, could hold 50 pages of information, but it's been a while since I read Dark Sun. So that means a Arthas Wizard would have to have more things to writ ehis magical learnings on.
#3
Kye_Tyrad
Jul 09, 2008 15:57:29 Since you need high quality material to create your spellbook or scroll your staff or robe would be expensive and not magical in itself... I would not necessarily require this to be their spellbook, but rather an extension of their existing spellbook...so they may have all their spells on their spellbook, but only the rituals, daily, and utility spells they feel they need to keep with them on the clothing or object.
#4
objulen
Jan 12, 2009 2:45:26 The class system for wizards is radically different in Dark Sun than 4e; there is no way to accurately translate Athas' wizards to 4e rules. Wizards in Dark Sun are a fundamental class that is innately tied with the state of the world; the only thing that remotely resembles what they can achieve through research is the ritual book system of 4e, and that is available to anyone with the skills and the time. If there were a collection of appropriate rituals that were wizard only it may create a suitable translation. I certainly hope that wizards doesn't separate defiling/preserving magic from wizards, which would be a huge disservice to the setting.
#5
Kynesis
Jan 13, 2009 19:59:21 The recording and verbalization of magic for pretty much every reference and source to ever use it strongly suggests that it's an inherently codified system, separate from any common language or writing.

I'm particularly fond of the idea that the coding > language of magic doesn't necessarily need to be written by ink and pen.

Hiding such a complex language within other sources even by my optimistic outlook is anything but practical for frequent or any regular use (unless it's somehow just a quick reference - back in the day we had a precedent with full spell-books and traveling spell-books).

I think the practice of embedding one's spells in sources other than books lends a fascinating aspect and a great source of creativity... within reason - my personal view (and one I think easily supported) is that any written form of a magical reference relies as much on the shape and patterning of the 'letters' and associated symbols as it does proper verbal, material and somatic components when casting - reducing it to something like morse code I believe is seriously overextending the concept; letting players get away with braided hair or a few notches in a stick I'd treat as a clear attempt to abuse things.

I'd be inclined to be significantly lenient on wizards where re-memorizing is concerned though - successful game-play being more important than following tricky game-mechanics to the letter.

Allowing a 'quick reference' of further codified work seems reasonable, given the long practice and dire need, and of course critical support by the Veiled Alliance (and SK's Defilers) to pass on such methods.

It's very clear to me that it should require a specific skill, I tend to rely on Decipher Script (because it essentially already supports that purpose).
I'm yet to consider its equivalent in 4e though.... shouldn't be too hard.
By the same token, working out a Defiling / Preserving system for 4e seems so far to be a real opportunity, free of the strictures of previous generations.
#6
Pennarin
Jan 13, 2009 22:16:28
The class system for wizards is radically different in Dark Sun than 4e; there is no way to accurately translate Athas' wizards to 4e rules.

Aroo?
#7
terminus_vortexa
Jan 14, 2009 12:09:52 Making 4e Dark Sun casters would be very simple, actually. You just tweak the spell lists of the Wizard class, make a separate Defiler and Preserver class, and scale defiling radius by level of the spell. Rituals would be much the same, just add a bonus for defiling.

Heck, even a special proto-metamorphosis class could easily be designed, once the psionics rules are released. 4e is quite malleable, used properly.

I still hate it, though.
#8
Pennarin
Jan 14, 2009 13:52:23 Er, actually I'd add to the PHB Wizard a class feature (like Ritual Casting is a class feature of the Wizard) called something like Defiling that says you can modify any spell or ritual with it and that spell gains a bonus based on tier or gains a special effect (a list could be done providing a special effect for some or each spell...but there aren't that many spells anyway), and gains the Defile keyword.

A campaign add-on then goes on to define what the Defile keyword means...i.e. effect on terrain, people, if any.
#9
GMforPowergamers
Jan 14, 2009 21:40:59
Er, actually I'd add to the PHB Wizard a class feature (like Ritual Casting is a class feature of the Wizard) called something like Defiling that says you can modify any spell or ritual with it and that spell gains a bonus based on tier or gains a special effect (a list could be done providing a special effect for some or each spell...but there aren't that many spells anyway), and gains the Defile keyword.

A campaign add-on then goes on to define what the Defile keyword means...i.e. effect on terrain, people, if any.

how about two new builds...defiler and peservier
#10
Pennarin
Jan 16, 2009 1:24:52 Strong arguments were at the time made, accepted, and applied, which resulted in the 3e wizard staying one class, with defiling as the add-on.

Far as I can tell those arguments still apply to 4e.
#11
Zardnaar
Jan 18, 2009 3:59:41 From experience its alot harder in 4th ed to design a new class than 3.5. Its easier to design a subset of rules relating to defiling.
#12
TheLoneCleric
Jan 19, 2009 10:23:03
how about two new builds...defiler and peservier

Exactly. Tear out some standard Wizard class features and remod them to work in the DS setting.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Kye_Tyrad Jul 09, 2008 11:14:32	In previous DS the wizards could encrypt their spellbooks onto a staff or into their robes etc... Is anyone planning to still have their wizards encrypt their spells onto another object?? If so would you treat this as a spellbook or just as a scroll that has some of the magic embedded into it?
#2 Ravenspyre Jul 09, 2008 13:19:18	In DS, this is their spellbook. Rituals and such would be such encrypted, and of coruse the wizard would put their spells on their staves or wands or what have you. But all things considered you would have to decide how many pages worth of information a single object could hold. I believe a staff, for instance, could hold 50 pages of information, but it's been a while since I read Dark Sun. So that means a Arthas Wizard would have to have more things to writ ehis magical learnings on.
#3 Kye_Tyrad Jul 09, 2008 15:57:29	Since you need high quality material to create your spellbook or scroll your staff or robe would be expensive and not magical in itself... I would not necessarily require this to be their spellbook, but rather an extension of their existing spellbook...so they may have all their spells on their spellbook, but only the rituals, daily, and utility spells they feel they need to keep with them on the clothing or object.
#4 objulen Jan 12, 2009 2:45:26	The class system for wizards is radically different in Dark Sun than 4e; there is no way to accurately translate Athas' wizards to 4e rules. Wizards in Dark Sun are a fundamental class that is innately tied with the state of the world; the only thing that remotely resembles what they can achieve through research is the ritual book system of 4e, and that is available to anyone with the skills and the time. If there were a collection of appropriate rituals that were wizard only it may create a suitable translation. I certainly hope that wizards doesn't separate defiling/preserving magic from wizards, which would be a huge disservice to the setting.
#5 Kynesis Jan 13, 2009 19:59:21	The recording and verbalization of magic for pretty much every reference and source to ever use it strongly suggests that it's an inherently codified system, separate from any common language or writing. I'm particularly fond of the idea that the coding > language of magic doesn't necessarily need to be written by ink and pen. Hiding such a complex language within other sources even by my optimistic outlook is anything but practical for frequent or any regular use (unless it's somehow just a quick reference - back in the day we had a precedent with full spell-books and traveling spell-books). I think the practice of embedding one's spells in sources other than books lends a fascinating aspect and a great source of creativity... within reason - my personal view (and one I think easily supported) is that any written form of a magical reference relies as much on the shape and patterning of the 'letters' and associated symbols as it does proper verbal, material and somatic components when casting - reducing it to something like morse code I believe is seriously overextending the concept; letting players get away with braided hair or a few notches in a stick I'd treat as a clear attempt to abuse things. I'd be inclined to be significantly lenient on wizards where re-memorizing is concerned though - successful game-play being more important than following tricky game-mechanics to the letter. Allowing a 'quick reference' of further codified work seems reasonable, given the long practice and dire need, and of course critical support by the Veiled Alliance (and SK's Defilers) to pass on such methods. It's very clear to me that it should require a specific skill, I tend to rely on Decipher Script (because it essentially already supports that purpose). I'm yet to consider its equivalent in 4e though.... shouldn't be too hard. By the same token, working out a Defiling / Preserving system for 4e seems so far to be a real opportunity, free of the strictures of previous generations.
#6 Pennarin Jan 13, 2009 22:16:28	The class system for wizards is radically different in Dark Sun than 4e; there is no way to accurately translate Athas' wizards to 4e rules. Aroo?
#7 terminus_vortexa Jan 14, 2009 12:09:52	Making 4e Dark Sun casters would be very simple, actually. You just tweak the spell lists of the Wizard class, make a separate Defiler and Preserver class, and scale defiling radius by level of the spell. Rituals would be much the same, just add a bonus for defiling. Heck, even a special proto-metamorphosis class could easily be designed, once the psionics rules are released. 4e is quite malleable, used properly. I still hate it, though.
#8 Pennarin Jan 14, 2009 13:52:23	Er, actually I'd add to the PHB Wizard a class feature (like Ritual Casting is a class feature of the Wizard) called something like Defiling that says you can modify any spell or ritual with it and that spell gains a bonus based on tier or gains a special effect (a list could be done providing a special effect for some or each spell...but there aren't that many spells anyway), and gains the Defile keyword. A campaign add-on then goes on to define what the Defile keyword means...i.e. effect on terrain, people, if any.
#9 GMforPowergamers Jan 14, 2009 21:40:59	Er, actually I'd add to the PHB Wizard a class feature (like Ritual Casting is a class feature of the Wizard) called something like Defiling that says you can modify any spell or ritual with it and that spell gains a bonus based on tier or gains a special effect (a list could be done providing a special effect for some or each spell...but there aren't that many spells anyway), and gains the Defile keyword. A campaign add-on then goes on to define what the Defile keyword means...i.e. effect on terrain, people, if any. how about two new builds...defiler and peservier
#10 Pennarin Jan 16, 2009 1:24:52	Strong arguments were at the time made, accepted, and applied, which resulted in the 3e wizard staying one class, with defiling as the add-on. Far as I can tell those arguments still apply to 4e.
#11 Zardnaar Jan 18, 2009 3:59:41	From experience its alot harder in 4th ed to design a new class than 3.5. Its easier to design a subset of rules relating to defiling.
#12 TheLoneCleric Jan 19, 2009 10:23:03	how about two new builds...defiler and peservier Exactly. Tear out some standard Wizard class features and remod them to work in the DS setting.