I am strongly considering taking the 'low magic' route for my DS campaign using the inherent bonuses system. It seems to fit and frankly the magic items in 4e just don't excite me all that much anyway. The problem as I see it is that the number of boons/rewards/trainings etc is very small and of the ones we have it seems 75% of them or divine in nature. Even if I reflavor the divine ones to something else it's not a lot to choose from. I COULD make my own, but my life barely gives me time to do the amount of prep I like to do for adventures now, without adding to the work load.
I seem to recall that they were going to recommend the inherent bonus system in DS anyway, so my question is this: Do you think they will have a lot of alternate rewards in the campaign setting book to use? ANd what are the rest of my fellow DMs going to do? Regular parcel system, inherent bonuses or something else altogether?
I started DMing Dark Sun two weeks ago, and I'm planning on using the same system. Give'em magic itens when the story asks for it - when it would be appropriate for the campaign. If they are not the ''hack, slash 'n' loot'' type, who cares only for gold and magic itens, some different motivation works much better than expected. In Athas, specially, since survival and freedom are motivation enough.
But, this is also a setting where combat at even paragon tier should still be open to be resolved with an improvised wooden shiv wielded by some non-magical thug. At epic tier? Same guy (at epic level) needs at least copper dagger or an enchanted improvised wooden shiv.
I think I'm going try to work out how to do both: to use inherent bonuses, but allow the players to acquire the magic items they want and lower their inherent bonuses accordingly. At the very least, use inherent bonuses, but allow players the option to turn them off by using magic items.
Now, if you were saying the bonuses don't stack as a suggestion, that's an idea.
One of the recent articles suggested providing wild talent psionic abilities to characters instead of magic items. I might use that too.
I'm a big fan of flavorful items, and selecting items that fit my theme is a very big draw to D&D for me. Moreover, I typically consider their unique powers elements of my character, rather than magic drawn from items. Turning these into boons or grandmaster training or what-have-you is a pretty clean, effective way to maintain the customization without being "made" by one's items.
As written, the inherent bonuses do stack with item bonuses, otherwise they wouldn't recommend giving out masterwork armor every so often.
Now, if you were saying the bonuses don't stack as a suggestion, that's an idea.
Magic items grant enhancement bonuses, not item bonuses (except in the case of skill bonuses, typically). Inherent bonuses also grant enhancement bonuses. The two do not stack, by default. A character with a +3 inherent bonus to attack/damage who finds a +4 magic sword may use the bonus of the sword instead of his own, but not both together.
Masterwork armor is required in the inherent bonuses system because the boost it provides is not included in the enhancement bonus.
If magic items are available in Athas, it's probably not a good idea for players to have them out in plain sight, unless they want to get mugged of said magic items by just about anyone in Athas.
Given the relative expense of magic items, the same could be said of magic items in any campaign setting. A measly +1 sword is worth 360 GP and they only go up from there, not exactly chump change to the average criminal in just about any world.
Keep in mind, enhancement bonuses only come from three magic item slots. All the other slots are almost purely flavor items, themed by slot. If you need more boons and want to minimize the number of magic items you hand out, simply convert one or more slots completely into boons: head, hands, and feet are items that are particularly suitable for this.
Now that's an idea.
"A Reward-Based Game" Sidebar, DMG2, page 138.
If magic items are available in Athas, it's probably not a good idea for players to have them out in plain sight, unless they want to get mugged of said magic items by just about anyone in Athas.
Granted, people could rob you of your very nice looking items no matter what, but is there some specific reason people would automatically know you are carrying magic item? Certainly something metal could make you a target, but this is why I like the fact that the varying grades of materials has been all but removed. You can have magic bone or stone weapons. Unless they have neon signs above them proclaiming that they are magical or everyone has the Arcana skill giving them the ability to detect magic, how would they know it is magic? I don't think there is any specific reason that you should have to worry that much more than any other setting. Especially considering that most fantasy settings are much like views of the wild west where everyone walks around with a weapon strapped to their waist.
The problem as I see it is that the number of boons/rewards/trainings etc is very small and of the ones we have it seems 75% of them or divine in nature. Even if I reflavor the divine ones to something else it's not a lot to choose from.
If you read "A Reward-Based Game" Sidebar, DMG2, page 138, you will see that ANY magical item can be converted into a boon.
They even have examples. A magical weapon +3 may simply be a boon of a primal spirit for your help. In fact, in this case, it's more like a "primal weapon +3". :P
The point being, you don't NEED to completely drop magical items. You just have to make them seem more special. :P
As an example, the character I'm playing now has what can be called a "full boon set of equipment".
My character's equipment is all a gift from the godess Melora and the primal spirits. It is all flavoured so that it's all part of the same "armor" that is actually a "living thing" that just adapts to what is needed (I grow claws to attack, it covers my head so that I get darkvision, etc). All magical (and mundane) items of my character are now a part of that.
You will need more preparation for the items you are handing over, but they will seem much more "precious". ;)
If magic items are available in Athas, it's probably not a good idea for players to have them out in plain sight, unless they want to get mugged of said magic items by just about anyone in Athas.
I wouldn't say "mugged". I do have the Templars checking people coming into the city-state to remove "illegal" magic items...
Also, since Magic is forbidden, the Templars are going to want to know where you got it and they'll, "confiscate" it.
So, with weapons made of bone, wood, stone, etc. being the standards weapons, and thus use stats as is, there is no mechanical differences between say a metal axe and a stone axe?
No there are differences. Bone, wood, stone weapons follow the weapon breakage rules. "If you roll a 1 then you can choose to roll again, if you miss the target your weapon breaks." Metal I believe follows the same rules but only breaks if you roll a 1 on the second roll. Don't remember at the moment.
Additionally it was said that Metal would have higher enhancement bonus potential when enchanted.
I don't really see why it is that bone, wood and stone weapons would break on a natural 1. At least in the case of bones and wood, I would think that because of how every living thing have been modified by psionics, and have had to adapt to the harsh conditions on athas, it would result in creatures having a much stronger bone structure. Similarly, plants would have gone through this as well. Thus bone and wooden weapons might not break as easily as one thinks.
They have a chance of breaking because the fluff you just wrote does not describe Dark Sun. Things have adapted psionically. But in Dark Sun, bone, wood, and stone, are still weaker than metal. Weapons breaking is an iconic feature of Dark Sun. That is just how Dark Sun works...
That being said, the chance is very player dependent in 4e. You can choose not to try and reroll your attack. You can accept your automatic miss. Or you can reroll your attack. If you reroll with a metal weapon than there is very little chance the weapon will break, but it still can. If you reroll with a bone, wood, or stone weapon it will break for sure.
The problem as I see it is that the number of boons/rewards/trainings etc is very small and of the ones we have it seems 75% of them or divine in nature. Even if I reflavor the divine ones to something else it's not a lot to choose from.
If you read "A Reward-Based Game" Sidebar, DMG2, page 138, you will see that ANY magical item can be converted into a boon.
They even have examples. A magical weapon +3 may simply be a boon of a primal spirit for your help. In fact, in this case, it's more like a "primal weapon +3". :P
The point being, you don't NEED to completely drop magical items. You just have to make them seem more special. :P
As an example, the character I'm playing now has what can be called a "full boon set of equipment".
My character's equipment is all a gift from the godess Melora and the primal spirits. It is all flavoured so that it's all part of the same "armor" that is actually a "living thing" that just adapts to what is needed (I grow claws to attack, it covers my head so that I get darkvision, etc). All magical (and mundane) items of my character are now a part of that.
You will need more preparation for the items you are handing over, but they will seem much more "precious". ;)
I like this concept and i take it even further, perhaos too far for the taste of many people. I've always hated magic items.
I hate the fact that characters shine brigther than the sun when detect magic is cast or that they are so gear dependent. i also hate that you can buy magic items as if they were ipods.
On the other hand i recognized the fact that the game was designed to give this rewards (even if there are optional rules to deal with that).
So what i like to do is separated the charcater mechanics from the story as much as posible; to the point were you dont actually have your magic items in game. If your boots give you more speed then you are faster thats it. Another benefit of this system is that when you actually find a magic item its actually interesting.
For flavor purposes I don't see a problem in calling a metal longsword a drake ivory longsword.
No there are differences. Bone, wood, stone weapons follow the weapon breakage rules. "If you roll a 1 then you can choose to roll again, if you miss the target your weapon breaks." Metal I believe follows the same rules but only breaks if you roll a 1 on the second roll. Don't remember at the moment.
To clarify, if you roll a natural 1, you can choose to reroll. A non-metal weapon breaks automatically when the attack is complete after choosing to reroll. A metal weapon breaks only if the reroll is natural 5 or lower. Broken weapons lose their magical properties until repaired, and act as an improvised weapon until then.
In other words, you can choose to allow Dark Sun feeling into your game for a bonus/risk combo. Or you can just ignore it.
I roll to attack this big insectile creature that ambushed me:
i roll a 1 on my d20, so now i have two options:
Reroll to see if i hit the target (and possibly crit), but if i miss my wooden/bone weapon breaks.
Not reroll, and accept that i missed and keep my weapon nice and uncracked for the next round.
If that is correct then Avengers can't be allowed in this setting.
EDIT: The way i see, this option for a reroll carrying a heavy price with it is the 'martial defiling'. Why only arcane caster can gain a reroll?
Let me get this straight:
I roll to attack this big insectile creature that ambushed me:
i roll a 1 on my d20, so now i have two options:
Reroll to see if i hit the target (and possibly crit), but if i miss my wooden/bone weapon breaks.
Not reroll, and accept that i missed and keep my weapon nice and uncracked for the next round.
If that is correct then Avengers can't be allowed in this setting.
EDIT: The way i see, this option for a reroll carrying a heavy price with it is the 'martial defiling'. Why only arcane caster can gain a reroll?
I think you understand correctly (either that or we are both wrong in the same way) but if you are playing it straight from canon in DS, then there are no gods, thus no divine power source, thus no Avengers, thus no problem.
But even if you do allow the divine power source in the game, I don't have my books on me at the moment so I might be way off on this, but doesn't the Avenger re-roll state specifically that it doesn't work with any other kind of re-roll. That's the way I remember it working anyway.
i roll a 1 on my d20, so now i have two options:
Reroll to see if i hit the target (and possibly crit), but if i miss my wooden/bone weapon breaks.
Not reroll, and accept that i missed and keep my weapon nice and uncracked for the next round.
Nope.
You roll a 1 on your d20, so now you have two options:
1. Reroll. Your bone/wood/stone weapon breaks, hit or miss. (Your metal weapon only breaks on a 5 or lower on the reroll.)
2. Not reroll.
In any case, Avengers are not available on Athas by default, but even then I'm not sure it's any different for them, except that they have fewer chances to utilize Reckless Breakage.
i roll a 1 on my d20, so now i have two options:
Reroll to see if i hit the target (and possibly crit), but if i miss my wooden/bone weapon breaks.
Not reroll, and accept that i missed and keep my weapon nice and uncracked for the next round.
Nope.
You roll a 1 on your d20, so now you have two options:
1. Reroll. Your bone/wood/stone weapon breaks, hit or miss. (Your metal weapon only breaks on a 5 or lower on the reroll.)
2. Not reroll.
In any case, Avengers are not available on Athas by default, but even then I'm not sure it's any different for them, except that they have fewer chances to utilize Reckless Breakage.
So i opt to break my weapon for a reroll? That's all?
I thought they took Sunder rules out for a reason, and a good one that is, i don't see any PC breaking his +3 flaming boner fullblade for a single reroll. (pun intended)
on another note, i remember reading it but i don't recall which material has that ruling, if someone could point it out.
The details are in the DMG2, page 138. They'll also be printed in the Dark Sun Campaign Setting.
on another note, i remember reading it but i don't recall which material has that ruling, if someone could point it out.
All materials have it.
If magic items are available in Athas, it's probably not a good idea for players to have them out in plain sight, unless they want to get mugged of said magic items by just about anyone in Athas.
Given the relative expense of magic items, the same could be said of magic items in any campaign setting. A measly +1 sword is worth 360 GP and they only go up from there, not exactly chump change to the average criminal in just about any world.
Thing is though, the average criminal in just about any world isn't even considered in the heroic tier. They're basically minions.
Then comes Athas, those weaklings? They're all dead. All you have left pretty much is the people in the heroic tier. Now THOSE criminals (pretty near everybody) are actually a threat to you and your +1 broadsword.
Yeah, they're obscure.
"A Reward-Based Game" Sidebar, DMG2, page 138.
Bingo ... "seconded" ...
Also available at the DMG2 preview, just not every type.
Buried within the various differences of the Boons,
is the possibility of Custom Boons.
These are in essence:
the property of one magic item, and
the daily of a different magic item, and
the same level of magic item, But
it's not a magic item, it's a boon.
(but you already knew that).
This option lets th DM control every detail of what "magic" "items"
a player has, instead of using the Wishlist approach to treasure.