Even though I never played the editions that Dark Sun originally came out for, the bard being a panderer of poisons sounds kind of odd. A rogue I can see doing that, but a bard? What do toxins have to do with music or magic?
It was one of those unique qualities of bards in Dark Sun, defined in the "previous editions" you say you haven't played. The Dark Sun bard was more like an assassin and spy, that would also be a musician. In DS3, this was also increased to including some tinkercraft skills (ancient stolen knowledge from a forgotten race). Basically, the classic bard would be someone who shared knowledge freely with people. The Athasian bard, however, would snatch up information and knowledge, using it to his or her personal gain, and would only share it at a price (and that price, in some cases, was death). Oh, and they didn't have any magic.
Even though I never played the editions that Dark Sun originally came out for, the bard being a panderer of poisons sounds kind of odd. A rogue I can see doing that, but a bard? What do toxins have to do with music or magic?
Long story short: Bards were spies and assassins, pretending to be entertainers, for the nobles and trade barons.
Longer story short: It was an attempt by the Dark Sun writers to give a cool, interesting purpose to what was widely considered to be joke class.
Longer story short: It was an attempt by the Dark Sun writers to give a cool, interesting purpose to what was widely considered to be joke class.
I think thats 3rd Ed bards you are thinking of - back in 2nd ed bards were quite powerful.
Oh, I guess now it makes sense. Using music, and other forms of entertainment to distract people to make a death look like an accident, or charm them so they gave out information. I suppose those abililties could also be used to have a bard be a con artist or mounteback.
The 2e/3e Athasian Bard wasn't a magic user.
The 4E version is a theme called "Athasian Minstrel" or something. It isn't specifically a bard.
The only thing a halfling won't eat, is a bard.
Giving bards the in-game monopoly on poisoncraft was thought to be enough to compensate for the loss of spellcasting.
No magic at all, certainly no music magic, only an undeniable performing talent in dance, music play, singing, tale-weaving, or circus...and a knowledge of poisons and the garrot. To cross a bard is to die mysteriously a painful, silent death, with no proof leading back to those we suspect.
Athasian bards, as they were called in 2e and 3e, now no longer mean the character class of Bard, but, just like a gladiator no longer means the character class of Gladiator, can be any class you want.
Even though I never played the editions that Dark Sun originally came out for, the bard being a panderer of poisons sounds kind of odd. A rogue I can see doing that, but a bard? What do toxins have to do with music or magic?
It was one of those unique qualities of bards in Dark Sun, defined in the "previous editions" you say you haven't played. The Dark Sun bard was more like an assassin and spy, that would also be a musician. In DS3, this was also increased to including some tinkercraft skills (ancient stolen knowledge from a forgotten race). Basically, the classic bard would be someone who shared knowledge freely with people. The Athasian bard, however, would snatch up information and knowledge, using it to his or her personal gain, and would only share it at a price (and that price, in some cases, was death). Oh, and they didn't have any magic.
Good description!
Example: A 19th Century entertainer, either a grandiose illusionist or an acclaimed theater performer, whose passing is always followed by a string of murders, poisonings, and elaborate robberies under the noses of rich folk while only they and the person in question where in the mansion. Odd, you say? No. The work of a career Athasian bard.
No magic at all, certainly no music magic, only an undeniable performing talent in dance, music play, singing, tale-weaving, or circus...and a knowledge of poisons and the garrot. To cross a bard is to die mysteriously a painful, silent death, with no proof leading back to those we suspect.
Athasian bards, as they were called in 2e and 3e, now no longer mean the character class of Bard, but, just like a gladiator no longer means the character class of Gladiator, can be any class you want.
Nicely put!
So, it could work, to use the 4e Bard, with the Athasian Minstrel, to play like a 2nd edition bard - especailly if you chose a bunch of multiclass feats and skill powers to become the ultimate poisoner/assassin.
4E Bard has multiple builds, one of them is a multiclassing option (unlimited multiclassesing..., which can give you a ton of trained skills AND powers). IF you emphasize this class trait by taking multiclass feats and powers, you become less of an inspiring leader and more of a "jack-of-all-trades" leader. The latter is more like the 2nd edition Bard.
Example: Take the Student of Seven paragon path, and the Alchemist's feat instead of Ritual casting. Probably either a Half-Elf or Human. Select the "Combat Virtuoso" feat, and several multi-classes (recommend INT, CON or CHA classes, but it's not necessary) and several multiclass powers (and Theme powers!). All of a sudden, you'll be a Bard with knives and wands up his sleeves, a battleaxe on his back, a sword on his hip, and monk tattoos painting his body. You won't just be a leader... but a leader with a new twist to every murder committed.
4E Bard has multiple builds, one of them is a multiclassing option (unlimited multiclassesing..., which can give you a ton of trained skills AND powers). IF you emphasize this class trait by taking multiclass feats and powers, you become less of an inspiring leader and more of a "jack-of-all-trades" leader. The latter is more like the 2nd edition Bard.
Alternatively, with Bard of All Trades, you get a +3 to all untrained checks (that stacks with your +1 from being a Bard). Then Bardic Knowledge adds +2 to Arcana, Dungeoneering, History, Nature, Religion, and Streetwise, the majority of which you hopefully have trained.
Next up, MC Rogue right before Paragon and go Jack of all Trades in Paragon (for training in a Rogue skill, a flat untyped +2 to all skill checks and eventually training in 3 more skills). If you feel so inclined, you can MC Sorcerer (no skill training possible here) and take Sorcerous Vision in Paragon, to replace any Perception and Insight check with Arcana (especially useful with a racial and background bonus layered on).
...sorry, I just really like this character concept I've been tooling with...
Longer story short: It was an attempt by the Dark Sun writers to give a cool, interesting purpose to what was widely considered to be joke class.
I think thats 3rd Ed bards you are thinking of - back in 2nd ed bards were quite powerful.
The 2e bard was a rogue build. You had the option to buy into the thief skills like other rogue in 2e and you had an ability to buff other players with music a few times a day. The 3e bard was far more useable, effective and interesting than 2e. In all the editions, 2e bard was the weakest. IMO.
The AD&D bard could cast spells. AD&D dark sun arcane spells sucked life from things, and the designers deemed magic-users would be the only arcane class. Including bards meant supplying the class with some mojo to make up for the loss of spells.
Giving bards the in-game monopoly on poisoncraft was thought to be enough to compensate for the loss of spellcasting.
What edition? 2e bard was rogue and could cast spells from scroll like other rogues. the 1e bard was a radical prestige class where a PC had to gain levels as a fighter, then a thief then a druid. It was about 6 level when one became a bard and cast spells.
Really 3e bard was the first bard to be called an "arcane" spell caster.
Re: OP The Athasian Minstril as a theme is a good approach. It allows for the classic athasian bard with a rogue build. It also allows Athasian minstrils of classess and builds I can't even imagine. But I can also see a 4e bard athasian minstril. Leading a troup of entertainers / rogues and thugs, in assassination attempts and spy missions to the highest bidder.
So, Athasian Minstrels can include fighters and barbarians. "Fear my mighty axe!" ...?
Think of the Illiad or Beowolf, warriors able spin wonderously fantastic tales of their accomplishments.
What edition? 2e bard was rogue and could cast spells from scroll like other rogues. the 1e bard was a radical prestige class where a PC had to gain levels as a fighter, then a thief then a druid. It was about 6 level when one became a bard and cast spells.
Really 3e bard was the first bard to be called an "arcane" spell caster.
Re: OP The Athasian Minstril as a theme is a good approach. It allows for the classic athasian bard with a rogue build. It also allows Athasian minstrils of classess and builds I can't even imagine. But I can also see a 4e bard athasian minstril. Leading a troup of entertainers / rogues and thugs, in assassination attempts and spy missions to the highest bidder.
Actually, 2nd edition Bards were indeed arcane spellcasters. They could learn wizard spells, had a spell progression (they couldn't learn spells until 2nd level, and capped out at 6th level spells) and had some of the Thief's skills, but not all of them. (he only had climb walls, detect noise, pick pockets and read languages.) At 10th level both bards and thieves could use scrolls, though bards were better at it.
So, Athasian Minstrels can include fighters and barbarians. "Fear my mighty axe!" ...?
Think of the Illiad or Beowolf, warriors able spin wonderously fantastic tales of their accomplishments.
I know, I don't have a problem with it (I have a problem with "he happens to play a musical instrument in his spare time, therefore he's less useful in combat!"). I'm just amazed I was the first person to make that joke.
So, Athasian Minstrels can include fighters and barbarians. "Fear my mighty axe!" ...?
Think of the Illiad or Beowolf, warriors able spin wonderously fantastic tales of their accomplishments.
I know, I don't have a problem with it (I have a problem with "he happens to play a musical instrument in his spare time, therefore he's less useful in combat!"). I'm just amazed I was the first person to make that joke.
Think Brütal Legend.
Fun stuff...
So, Athasian Minstrels can include fighters and barbarians. "Fear my mighty axe!" ...?
Think of the Illiad or Beowolf, warriors able spin wonderously fantastic tales of their accomplishments.
I know, I don't have a problem with it (I have a problem with "he happens to play a musical instrument in his spare time, therefore he's less useful in combat!"). I'm just amazed I was the first person to make that joke.
Think Brütal Legend.
We probably need an Athasian Bard motivational poster with a picture of a black metal band.