Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sinless Aug 23, 2010 20:46:04	So I ran my first Dark Sun 4E game this evening and the first encounter involved a level 1 encounter (525xp) with 5 Silt Runners - 2 ragers, 2 darters and 1 inciter. This book should have a warning label! Round 1 went a little like this : Darters win initiative, poison attack the  defender and leader. Take 19 and 22 damage, and you are both immobilized.  Now it is the rager's turn lets, here is a brutal spear attack for a crit, take  28 damage rogue.... it is about this time that I started rolling behind a screen... and if I didn't the party would have been dead after the inciters turn. What the hell, these creatures are not even close to being in balance with the rules. I am fine with the creatures being nasty, but this seems a little insane.  Am I wrong or should all of these creatures have their level increased by 1?
#2 rollawaythestone Aug 23, 2010 22:50:50	It's unfortunate that  three of the enemies encounter/recharge powers hit your players right off the bat. You ran the encounter at the end of the DSCG, right? Looking at it now, it seems like there may have been a misprint. The second encounter with the Silt Runners and the Poisonscale Collector show some inconsistencies. Take a look at the damage for the Silt Runner Ragers in the third encounter and compare it to the first encounter. The rager in the first encounter does several dice more damage than the silt runner rager in the third encounter. Which one is correct, I don't know. Maybe someone with the Creature Catalogue can let us know?
#3 Zetesofos Aug 23, 2010 23:28:25	nope...those numbers are about right.
#4 sinless Aug 24, 2010 0:20:04	I actually created my own encounter, but I did not pay too close of attention when I set it up. I simply looked at the top entry and said to myself "four level 1 creatures and a level 2 creature should not give a fully rested party too much problem." I was wrong. Now I suppose I should have looked the creatures over closer. But this was basically a travelling encounter that would give the players a chance to get use to fighting along side of each other before I threw anything big at them...  Live and learn I guess. But, find me any 1st level brute that can do the raw damage that a Rager can do. +6 to hit and 4d6+4? On the bright side it can only do that attack 3 times an encounter. I told my players to get a hard hat and make a back up character, things aren't gonna get any easier.
#5 visanidethdm Aug 24, 2010 2:47:02	I think the issue is very specific to silt runners. As written in the CC, their damage potential is probably excessive and inconsistent with most of the 4e design. However, consider that it's also highly situational - they hit with their recharge powers and they're overpowered, they miss and they're fundamentally weak - so I don't particularly mind it.
#6 DMaple Aug 24, 2010 15:58:03	But, find me any 1st level brute that can do the raw damage that a Rager can do. +6 to hit and 4d6+4? On the bright side it can only do that attack 3 times an encounter. Brutes tend to do big damage but don't hit very often, where as strikers do big damage all the time.
#7 qorvus Aug 24, 2010 16:14:52	All creatures in the DSCC and MM3 got a damage boost.  Lets face it, the MM1 & MM2 creatures for the most were not threatening.
#8 smeej Aug 24, 2010 17:44:44	True, but I almost agree about the disclaimer. I could have gotten a TPK in the first round of Marauders of the Dune Sea. O_o
#9 citizencoyote Aug 24, 2010 18:11:28	It's unfortunate that  three of the enemies encounter/recharge powers hit your players right off the bat. You ran the encounter at the end of the DSCG, right? Looking at it now, it seems like there may have been a misprint. The second encounter with the Silt Runners and the Poisonscale Collector show some inconsistencies. Take a look at the damage for the Silt Runner Ragers in the third encounter and compare it to the first encounter. The rager in the first encounter does several dice more damage than the silt runner rager in the third encounter. Which one is correct, I don't know. Maybe someone with the Creature Catalogue can let us know? I ran the intro "story" at the end of the book for my group for us to get a taste of the setting, and noticed this strange inconsistency as well.  I chalked it up to the designers slightly weakening the later group in compensation for the greater numbers, but the first group matches what's in the Creature Catalog.  Silt runners are exceptionally nasty first level monsters, especially if they manage to pull off an ambush. For what it's worth, the group had a rough time with the first encounter but survived.  The later encounter wasn't so bad, but they had saved most of their daily powers and the runners were slightly weaker. If you look at the new damage rules, a level 1 creature's baseline single target damage is now 1d8+4.  Brutes have this bumped up by 25 percent, and an encounter power adds an additional 25-50 percent.  Not sure on the math for boosting dice, but the 4d6+4 damage seems a little excessive (especially since a runner can conceivably inflict that damage three times in an encounter).
#10 sinless Aug 24, 2010 18:24:57	All creatures in the DSCC and MM3 got a damage boost.  Lets face it, the MM1 & MM2 creatures for the most were not threatening.  I agree, but it was not expected. MM3 got a damage boost, but then the DSCC got an additional boost. Just compare a Dire Rat (MM1), Thornskin frog (MM3) and a Silk Runner Rager (DSCC). The power level between these 3 are completely different. In the end I am not saying that I am not going to be able to use this book, or that the product is bad. I am just saying I would have liked a little heads up.
#11 flip Aug 24, 2010 18:41:00	True, but I almost agree about the disclaimer. I could have gotten a TPK in the first round of Marauders of the Dune Sea. O_o That's just about the point of that particular encounter.  If you read on, if everyone is taken out, a few of them end up "branded" with a tattoo that let's Hamanu "interrogate" them ... something of a plot device, but also the encounter is there to make your players realize that this is not a nice place.
#12 Duke5150 Aug 24, 2010 18:47:51	Yup. you will find a lot of players get inked and the lucky few are the ones who manage to win the encounter. It's one of those "the players are screwed but" moments that can be all too common in darksun. I enjoy it as a player because it adds another dimension to the game, instead of just the standard win/die routine so common to D&D in general. (at least among newer groups)
#13 beej_silver Aug 24, 2010 18:53:40	I don't have the books yet (hoorah for living in the other side of the world!), but I've already heard about those silt runner ragers from the D&D Encounters awhile back. The majority of the posters seem to have agreed even back then that the ragers' damage were OP. Here are a couple of points: *As of MM3, brute accuracy has been increased to keep it on par with the other roles (one would also note that soldier accuracy has been decreased). If you're used to the "blindfolded ogres" of MM1, the monsters starting from MM3 will really surprise you with their accuracy. *As a rough estimate, monsters deal an average damage  on single target attacks equal to 8+level. Limited attacks deal +25-50%, while brutes deal an extra +25%. Now I haven't seen the ragers, but the way I understood it from previous posts, the 4d6+4 damage attack isn't even a single encounter thing. Rechargable powers should probably be on the lower end of the spectrum, dealing an average of [(8+1)*1.25*1.25]~14.06 damage.  The rager deals an average of 18 on its limited attack. (And for the record, [(8+1)*1.25*1.5]~16.88, stil about a point shy of the rager's average damage.) Math geek disclaimer: Of course, the math above is simplistic. It doesn't account for the increased averages of attacks with miss effects, and no variance analysis whatsoever was done. But for the purposes of a game I'm supposed to enjoy, I think this demonstration will suffice. Besides, I don't even know if the rager does deal half damage on a miss; neither do I know the specifics of its recharge. My suggestion is to remove 1d6 from the attack, making it deal 3d6+4 damage instead (dealing an average of 14.5 damage, which is close to 14.06). Also, as DM I've recently (post MM3) learned that it's a good idea to not throw off most of the encounter/recharge powers on the first round. This increases the survivability of my player characters.  But yes, that rager is totally OP, in my opinion. I wouldn't recommend lowering its damage otherwise.
#14 smeej Aug 24, 2010 18:55:36	True, but I almost agree about the disclaimer. I could have gotten a TPK in the first round of Marauders of the Dune Sea. O_o That's just about the point of that particular encounter.  If you read on, if everyone is taken out, a few of them end up "branded" with a tattoo that let's Hamanu "interrogate" them ... something of a plot device, but also the encounter is there to make your players realize that this is not a nice place.   Well thats the point of every encounter! But this encounter is only 2 levels higher than the characters. This is considered the "normal" range, I believe, not the "DIE DIE DIE" range. I had to pull back heavily to not destroy them in one round. 2d6+11 damage is pretty insane, is all. If all the dwarves had focused one person he'd have been toast.
#15 rollawaythestone Aug 24, 2010 19:14:42	The Silt Runner Rager is printed in two encounters in the short adventure in the Dark Sun Campaign Guide. The damage of the Rager is inconsistent between the two encounters. In the first encounter, the Rager does 4d6+4 with their recharge power and 4d6+4 damage with their encounter power (must be bloodied). In the third encounter, the Rager does 3d6+6 with their recharge power and 2d6+3 with their encounter power. Whats up with this inconsistency? Looking at it, the Rager in the third encounter seems to have the proper stats.
#16 Akriel Aug 24, 2010 20:18:44	Rager does 4d6+4 in the DSCC.