I am a newcomer to dark sun but a semi-veteran to D&D. I started playing at the end of 2nd Edition but never experienced Dark Sun, so I am very excited for 4e update.
I have a few questions about the world for those of you who are vets:
(1) Are the sorc-kings dragons? I have been reading the Original Box set Wanderer's Journal (although I am not finishd yet), and it seems as though they are distinct presences.
(2) Are defilers/ preservers arcane casters? Or do these casters include primal magic?
(3) Can the average person distinguish between arcane, psionic, and primal magic? IE Would a templar kill an elemental cleric?
(4) What are good resources to read to learn more about the world? IE novels? Handbooks? 2e Resources? Does anyone have any favorites?
Hello Community,
I am a newcomer to dark sun but a semi-veteran to D&D. I started playing at the end of 2nd Edition but never experienced Dark Sun, so I am very excited for 4e update.
I have a few questions about the world for those of you who are vets:
(1) Are the sorc-kings dragons? I have been reading the Original Box set Wanderer's Journal (although I am not finishd yet), and it seems as though they are distinct presences.
(2) Are defilers/ preservers arcane casters? Or do these casters include primal magic?
(3) Can the average person distinguish between arcane, psionic, and primal magic? IE Would a templar kill an elemental cleric?
(4) What are good resources to read to learn more about the world? IE novels? Handbooks? 2e Resources? Does anyone have any favorites?
- Yes. However Dark Sun Dragons are not your typical D&D dragon. Actually, they are extremely epic beings who have mastered arcane magic and psionics, blending them together with extremely potent and deadly rituals to transform themselves into these monstrous beings. However (with only a couple exceptions) they conceal their true natures from the world.
- They are arcane casters. Defiling and preserving are very similar, the latter has more self-control and restricts the amount of energy taken to quicken (cast) a spell, while the former remains relatively heedless and takes too much energy and ruins his/her surroundings as a result.
- I personally rule no. However, it really depends on a large number of factors. But in general, no, the average person will most likely not distinguish those, and stick all three into the same category of "magic", which the average Athasian probably knows leads to the destruction of the basic essentials of life -- food, drink, etc.
- Check out athas.org for your answer.
Check out athas.org for your answer.
Avoid athas.org like the plague. Their efforts over the last few years have been commendable, but they are still fan efforts. Non-designers trying to design stuff. And fans trying to bolster their favorite bit of the world while ignoring their least favorite bits of the setting. Stick with the official stuff.
Your best resources are the original box and associated books (both game product and fiction). They all capture the feel of Athas beautifully. Continue with the Wanderer's Journal. That is one of the best resources you could hope for, honestly. The fiction has to follow the rules of fiction, so you can't really get a good overview of the world without reading all the books from all the series. With the Wanderer's Journal you're set.
If you want fiction, the original series (starting with Verdant Passage) is good, and so is the Tribe of One series (three book run).
Check out athas.org for your answer.
I suggest you go to athas.org because there is a lot of their products that are more than professional and even if there isnt much images thorough their creation, their level of research and knowledge of the setting gave them the opportunity to create things better than would have done a big box like wotc giving they did this for free and with their free time.
Just to take by example the Terrors of athas document on monsters, there are over 300 pages of monsters. EVERY monsters from EVERY book made for darksun were found and stat in there.
Avoid athas.org like the plague. Their efforts over the last few years have been commendable, but they are still fan efforts. Non-designers trying to design stuff. And fans trying to bolster their favorite bit of the world while ignoring their least favorite bits of the setting. Stick with the official stuff.
Well, before saying thing, you actually have to read these. I dont know how long you have been playing D&D, but the fact that you actually joined the wotc board this month can tell us a lot about your degree of darksun knowledge. But I can be wrong as I dont know you.
They are official. They have been given the right to write stuff by wotc. So, stick with the official stuff as he said, since what athas.org did is official.
"Avoid athas.org like the plague. " The real only thing you have to avoid is the test paizo tryed to created with darksun in dragon mag and dungeon mag. They threw something on the road and never look back to see what happened with it. That's the worst thing that happened to DS in all these years.
Your best resources are the original box and associated books (both game product and fiction). They all capture the feel of Athas beautifully. Continue with the Wanderer's Journal. That is one of the best resources you could hope for, honestly. The fiction has to follow the rules of fiction, so you can't really get a good overview of the world without reading all the books from all the series. With the Wanderer's Journal you're set.
I agree with you, there are treasure in these documents, although, I will suggest you to read athas.org stuff because they are the reference in D&D3.5e stuff about DS. Their document arent just rules, there is flavor in each corner with historical references, short stories and such.
If you want fiction, the original series (starting with Verdant Passage) is good, and so is the Tribe of One series (three book run).
If you want to feel the flavor of athas, the Prism pentad (verdent passage among them) is a very good reading, unfortunatly, it went too far and modified the setting. It's why the 4th edition moved back the setting 10 years before AD&D second edition "revised" and prism pentad.
And please do not read Tribe of One series, it's the worst reading you will ever have. If you want to read entries of the monsters manual (the darksun one from the second edition), please proceed in reading it. Simon Hawke made a real poor attempt in DS. I hope he will ever stay away from it again. He actually made NO effort in reading any documents related to darksun to have such a poor knowledge of it.
Check out athas.org for your answer.
Avoid athas.org like the plague. Their efforts over the last few years have been commendable, but they are still fan efforts. Non-designers trying to design stuff. And fans trying to bolster their favorite bit of the world while ignoring their least favorite bits of the setting. Stick with the official stuff.
FYI: You missed my point entirely. The original question was:
What are good resources to read to learn more about the world? IE novels? Handbooks? 2e Resources? Does anyone have any favorites?
And I offered athas.org as an answer. Why? Because Athas.org has a COMPLETE LISTING of ALL of the Dark Sun materials on it -- including the complete list of 2E books, and novels.
Your bias is unnecessary and uncalled for. Grummore summed it up nicely, Athas.org is OFFICIAL. Heck, a couple of the Athas.org team are credited in the Dungeon/Dragon 3.5e rendition for the Dragon PrC (which is an alternate, and still completely official version of Dark Sun for 3.5e D&D). So really, get a grip.
Oh Blackbriar, Blackbriar...
What really gets me is he pans athas.org as amateurs to avoid, but then actually recommends the "Tribe of One" series...
That's like going to a New York gallery showing and panning the artist as an amateur, then whipping out your three-year-old daughter's scribbles as a professional alternative.
Athas.org is a GREAT site! It's full of excellent material and ideas. Whatever your style, you should take a look at some of the articles written there for inspiration. Esepcially for a n00b, take a look at some of the stories and adventure summaries. Frankenstein them into your own adventures.
There are only limited amounts of good material available for Dark Sun. Athas.org is the best place to start.
You have nothing to lose except your own time.
An arcane magic-user utters strange incantations, makes strange gestures, and frequently leaches the life out of the soil and plants around him. A psionic user simply concentrates, maybe making simple gestures as he levitates a large stone. I think that many primal characters (Druids and Shamans, at least) call out wild chants and prayers.
Well, before saying thing, you actually have to read these. I dont know how long you have been playing D&D, but the fact that you actually joined the wotc board this month can tell us a lot about your degree of darksun knowledge. But I can be wrong as I dont know you.
No so much with the assumption about my Dark Sun knowledge based on when I registered here.
They are official. They have been given the right to write stuff by wotc. So, stick with the official stuff as he said, since what athas.org did is official.
Officially sanctioned doesn't mean professionally done.
I agree with you, there are treasure in these documents, although, I will suggest you to read athas.org stuff because they are the reference in D&D3.5e stuff about DS. Their document arent just rules, there is flavor in each corner with historical references, short stories and such.
I've read a lot of Athas.org stuff. Which is why I know it's best avoided. Anything they write that's not a paraphrase of the original box or the novels is their own creation based on their biases and opinions. They may be some great people, but they're not professional writers. They're amateurs. There's nothing wrong with being an amateur, just know what you're getting when you read their stuff.
It's been the only source for 'new' Dark Sun material for years. When you're in the desert long enough you'll get so thirsty you'll drink your own urine. That doesn't make it good. Just the only thing you have available. And after a while, you might even start to like it.
Everyone has a different opinion about the resources available. I'm simply stating mine. It's too bad that others feel the need to drown out dissent, or attack those who disagree. Good thing they don't wield any actual power or their opinion would be 'official.'
To11: You're right. The original material presented the arcane characters as the only one people mistrusted. Psionics, divine/elemental, whatever else were accepted.
I always got the impression from reading the Dark Sun books that the average person could distinguish the difference between Arcane, Primal, and Psionic magic. Elemental Priests were allowed to live unmolested in City-States, openly using their magic. Psionics are so common on Athas that everyone has at least rudimentarly understanding of it. In fact, in the original boxed set, it is stated that every person on Athas has psionic abilities. This was backed off of in later products, however. Even in 4e, these different types of magic look very different.
An arcane magic-user utters strange incantations, makes strange gestures, and frequently leaches the life out of the soil and plants around him. A psionic user simply concentrates, maybe making simple gestures as he levitates a large stone. I think that many primal characters (Druids and Shamans, at least) call out wild chants and prayers.
I tend to lean more toward the novels' depiction of how people see it, rather than the sourcebooks which were a bit... wonky at times. But to each their own. The novels tended to portray people being relatively clueless when it comes to distinguishing between these details (at least at first). Generally speaking, I have crowd dynamics at play in my campaigns, which is to say if someone is using some "super-normal" ability in the presence of a crowd (or close enough to one), it quickly gets identified as the evil "magic" and potentially opens a whole new, unwanted can of worms for the party to deal with (lynch mob anyone?). However, this is not always the case, it does depend on where the person did said "magic". Some crowds are more lenient than others.
Officially sanctioned doesn't mean professionally done.
Did you expect it to be something else? In your estimation, was it worse than the treatment that the 300 years in the future release through Dragon/Dungeon did?
I've read a lot of Athas.org stuff. Which is why I know it's best avoided. Anything they write that's not a paraphrase of the original box or the novels is their own creation based on their biases and opinions. They may be some great people, but they're not professional writers. They're amateurs. There's nothing wrong with being an amateur, just know what you're getting when you read their stuff.
It's been the only source for 'new' Dark Sun material for years. When you're in the desert long enough you'll get so thirsty you'll drink your own urine. That doesn't make it good. Just the only thing you have available. And after a while, you might even start to like it.
See, here is where I take offense. While we may all be amateurs, the work is certainly not urine. Further, there is, and never has been, and requirement to use any bits of any material that a person doesn't like or that doesn't fit into a person's game. If you don't like it, that's fine, but a remark about how its crap doesn't help your argument; especially if what you want is a new release of DS that very well might have never happened if not for the people of athas.org putting in all that work.
And, if I may ask, makes "professional writers" better than what athas.org has done? Is it because of a logo or a sanction that is received by the corporation? Does a person need to be paid to do something of value for the community?
Everyone has a different opinion about the resources available. I'm simply stating mine. It's too bad that others feel the need to drown out dissent, or attack those who disagree. Good thing they don't wield any actual power or their opinion would be 'official.'
Your opinion is fine, but you fall victim to a double standard when you say that it's too bad that others feel the need to drown out dissent. What actual power do you think any of us have. And when did "official" ever matter when you run your own game? If you wanted to introduce gods or bring back gnomes or whatever, you can "officially" do that in your game.
There are plenty of people who don't like what athas.org has done. That's fine. Enjoy what you want to. But please don't assume that just because someone collects a paycheck from the company that means that their opinions that get transformed into what becomes "official" are any more valid than what we lowly amatures have done.
So, somehow, in all of those documents, you haven't found anything of interest, even though they were written by different people with different styles? I would doubt that. So what's left to conclude is that you're generalizing - putting everything in the same basket and labelling it - which means you're settling for printed material that is sometimes flawed or limited or not to your taste, because it's official, and ignoring new stuff that might have met your liking...if it hadn't been labelled by you to begin with.
Frankly I do not understand this viewpoint. It's one thing to state delicately, or in passing, that you dislike amateur work (which you did the first time around), but another thing to seem to indicate you label all of it...which IMO reads as you 'discriminate' against amateur work.
Just saying. Some opinions are best kept to yourself, not because people will laugh at you or be angry at you, but because they show you choose to disregard stuff at face value (i.e. I hate all modern movies).
Did you expect it to be something else? In your estimation, was it worse than the treatment that the 300 years in the future release through Dragon/Dungeon did?
Neither attempt was particularly good.
See, here is where I take offense. While we may all be amateurs, the work is certainly not urine. Further, there is, and never has been, and requirement to use any bits of any material that a person doesn't like or that doesn't fit into a person's game. If you don't like it, that's fine, but a remark about how its crap doesn't help your argument; especially if what you want is a new release of DS that very well might have never happened if not for the people of athas.org putting in all that work.
I'm sorry that you're offended that I have an opinion. It's funny, people say the most abhorrent things about WotC and the work they do, but there's not many people getting their back up about it. I comment about Athas.org and suddenly calling a spade a spade is offensive and wrong. BS.
And to claim that only through Athas.org was Dark Sun saved is utter crap. With how many of the original Dark Sun designers now in charge of development at WotC? BS. The setting was inevitable.
And, if I may ask, makes "professional writers" better than what athas.org has done? Is it because of a logo or a sanction that is received by the corporation? Does a person need to be paid to do something of value for the community?
Experience and payment. The designers at most game companies have years of experience and there's someone paying them for that work. If the work isn't up to the employers standard then that designer is fired, doesn't work as much, is phased out, has his work re-edited by someone else, etc. The people at Athas.org? Not so much.
Your opinion is fine, but you fall victim to a double standard when you say that it's too bad that others feel the need to drown out dissent.
No double standard. We all have the right to express our opinions. I make not claims to the contrary. You have your opinion and post it, great. You disagree with me, let's talk. Don't want to talk, fine. Whatever. But to feel the need to drown out someone's opinion is ridiculous. Free public discourse and all that.
There are plenty of people who don't like what athas.org has done. That's fine. Enjoy what you want to. But please don't assume that just because someone collects a paycheck from the company that means that their opinions that get transformed into what becomes "official" are any more valid than what we lowly amatures have done.
Well, when there's payment, there's accountability. Along with that goes consistent editing, design, and maybe something approaching vision. An intelligible through line of thought that ties the various bits of a project together. A design bible. Rules set down from on high. Someone that is in charge. Not design by committee.
Oh, Blackbriar. Again? You are generalizing, and you know it. Your very statement, that they are amateurs, is a generalization, and you even comfirm it by stating you read a lot of it and still felt it was amateurish.
I never claimed to have read everything the ever produced. A good bit of it yes. Enough to form an opinion that was confirmed through later re-reading and reading newer products they put out. Your argument shows that you assume there's some objective standard here that I should compare things against. Because you think their work was good, doesn't mean it was good. Because I think it was bad, doesn't make it bad. It's all opinion. Hard work =/= quality.
So, somehow, in all of those documents, you haven't found anything of interest, even though they were written by different people with different styles? I would doubt that. So what's left to conclude is that you're generalizing - putting everything in the same basket and labelling it - which means you're settling for printed material that is sometimes flawed or limited or not to your taste, because it's official, and ignoring new stuff that might have met your liking...if it hadn't been labelled by you to begin with.
Oh, see, you're assuming. I never claimed that all the official stuff was great, or even good. So it's not a generalization. Official =/= good; amateur =/= bad. For example, I hated the revised boxed set. With an utter passion. Still hate with utter passion. Those f-ing bird people. Holy crap that was a lame move. Most of the original supplements were good. Some others, not so much. Everything I've read (again, a sizable chunk, but no, not all of it) from Athas.org was well below the revised box in my opinion.
Frankly I do not understand this viewpoint. It's one thing to state delicately, or in passing, that you dislike amateur work (which you did the first time around), but another thing to seem to indicate you label all of it...which IMO reads as you 'discriminate' against amateur work.
Again, you're running with that assumption of generalization. Which isn't the case. I have more third party publishers' materials for D&D than official stuff. Same for other games I play, like M&M. Love the game and there's a lot of great stuff thats 3PP. Some of that stuff's crap too though. It's a case by case basis. But when you read 15-20 books/projects from the same group and they're all bad, you get to hedge your bets. I'm planning on living to be well over 100, but I'm not going to live long enough to read everything just to be sure it's all bad.
Ever walk out of a movie, or turn off a DVD? Same thing. I've gone through 60-75% of the stuff and I don't see enough quality in the work to continue with the rest.
Just saying. Some opinions are best kept to yourself, not because people will laugh at you or be angry at you, but because they show you choose to disregard stuff at face value (i.e. I hate all modern movies).
Oh, so because I disagree I should shut up. Nice. Sorry, but no.
They may be some great people, but they're not professional writers. They're amateurs.
You know, I'm an "athas.org people" and I'm a professional writer...
Just sayin'.
Also, seriously: you're talking about professional vs. amateur, complain about the difference being very important, and you recommended the Tribe of One novels. The irony is so thick...you'd be rich on Athas!
(Throw in the "full of bias and opinions" complaint about AO material, and compare it to what was in the ToO series, and you're doubly so!) [1]I would also note that, as I recall, everything written and released by AO had to be approved by folks at WotC. Hence the "Official" moniker. Which makes your accusation of "bias and opinion" -- ie: therefore the material isn't what WotC would have done with it -- erroneous.
([1] For those not in the know, the ToO novels are the worst written in the DS line, both in terms of technical/artistic skill, and in terms of the number of egregious errors in setting details and background found therein. It is baffling and amusing that someone would recommend them while panning "amateur", "biased", "poorly written" work.)
They may be some great people, but they're not professional writers. They're amateurs.
You know, I'm an "athas.org people" and I'm a professional writer...
That sentence alone shows you're not a professional writer. Quickest edit would be, "You know, I'm one of those 'athas.org people' and I'm a professional writer..." But whatever. I'm not the one trying to claim unprovable authority on an RPG forum.
Also, I'm talking about the writers who worked on AO material, not people who like it. So unless you worked on projects they put out, it's irrelevant.
But okay, I'll bite. What kind of professional writer? Novels, short stories, journalism, technical writing? What? Being a professional journalist for example doesn't mean you are a professional game designer. Or a professional novelist. Sure, there's a lot of carry over, but they are different beasts.
I would also note that, as I recall, everything written and released by AO had to be approved by folks at WotC. Hence the "Official" moniker. Which makes your accusation of "bias and opinion" -- ie: therefore the material isn't what WotC would have done with it -- erroneous.
Well, that's where you're wrong. Only after a few years of putting out fan-written, non-sanctioned material did WotC throw down the "official" label on their fan site and projects. And honestly, after they got the "official," I don't know how much WotC was or was not involved.
That sentence alone shows you're not a professional writer. Quickest edit would be, "You know, I'm one of those 'athas.org people' and I'm a professional writer..."
LOL, yes, perfect English grammar in a relaxed setting is indeed the sole indicator of a professional writer, and there is only one way ever to write any given phrase correctly...
Please, save your posturing for someone ignorant and inexperienced enough to be impressed by and fall for it.
But whatever. I'm not the one trying to claim unprovable authority on an RPG forum.
Actually, you are. (Alongside some other claims of questionable reasoning) You are authoritatively trying to claim no one at AO is a "professional" writer/designer.
While anyone with the barest powers of observation can easily verify my credentials -- and I recognize by bothering with this I am simply opening myself up for more trolling and empty demands for even further verification or villification...but what the heck! Let's see what happens -- I have written "professionally" (ie: individuals/businesses/multinational corporations have paid me money) in various fields for around fifteen years now: fiction, technical (game design included), copywriting. I have also served in the capacity of an editor on various private or corporate projects for no small amount of that time.
And if you don't believe me, well boo-hoo. Doesn't change a thing for me! Nor change that you're talking out your rectum by childishly insisting a fairly mild counter to one of your claims is "unprovable" and playing grade school grammarian.
Also, I'm talking about the writers who worked on AO material, not people who like it. So unless you worked on projects they put out, it's irrelevant.
I did work on a few of them in a small, uncredited editing capacity, although a couple have also included not insignificant sections I contributed to.
However, you might note I also said "Just sayin' " indicating it wasn't a complete rebuff of your point, merely a warning about hasty generalizations based on incomplete knowledge.
Well, that's where you're wrong. Only after a few years of putting out fan-written, non-sanctioned material did WotC throw down the "official" label on their fan site and projects. And honestly, after they got the "official," I don't know how much WotC was or was not involved.
Flip is free to correct me if I am recalling incorrectly on any of this: while AO existed prior to becoming the official DS site (as did all the official fan sites for defunct settings), all official content was produced after the site was chosen by WotC in 2000.
The material listed as "by Athas.org" on the Published page is officially-sanctioned material and had to be run by WotC reps before being released as such; none of it was published prior to the year 2000 and most of it was created and developed long afterward. You might also wish to note a not insignifcant chunk of that material is based on documents provided by WotC to AO, such as the "Dregoth Ascending" adventure (an unreleased 2E product the AO team converted and released for 3E).
Yes, there is a section of non-sanctioned fan-created, unofficial material archived on AO contained in the "Articles" section that is not considered "official", but this does not make up the bulk (or anywhere near it) of the available material as you seem to believe.
LOL, yes, perfect English grammar in a relaxed setting is indeed the sole indicator of a professional writer, and there is only one way ever to write any given phrase correctly...Please, save your posturing for someone ignorant and inexperienced enough to be impressed by and fall for it.
Not posturing, I simply found it laughable that in your sentence proclaiming that you were a professional writer you didn't manage basic grammar.
But whatever. I'm not the one trying to claim unprovable authority on an RPG forum.
Actually, you are. (Alongside some other claims of questionable reasoning) You are authoritatively trying to claim no one at AO is a "professional" writer/designer.
So you don't know the argument from authority fallacy. You claimed to be an authority because you were a professional writer. Thus claiming authority in this subject, and hoping that would sway the argument. A logical fallacy. I claimed no authority position (provable or otherwise) that would reinforce my position. You however, have.
Granted, I do not know whether there are professional writers at OA. Fair enough. The quality of the work suggests that there are not.
While anyone with the barest powers of observation can easily verify my credentials... I have written "professionally" (ie: individuals/businesses/multinational corporations have paid me money) in various fields for around fifteen years now: fiction, technical (game design included), copywriting. I have also served in the capacity of an editor on various private or corporate projects for no small amount of that time.
I have most of those credentials too. The difference is that I'm not swinging them in hopes of increasing the validity of my position. Hence your fallacy.
(snark) You have a website. Great. So do some people's dogs.
(serious) Congrats on the writing. I hope that keeps up for you. It is a rather amazing feeling to get paid to write or edit.
However, you might note I also said "Just sayin' " indicating it wasn't a complete rebuff of your point, merely a warning about hasty generalizations based on incomplete knowledge.
Come on. "Hasty generalizations based on incomplete knowledge." That's funny. See, we live our lives based on incomplete knowledge. You can't get through a day without making judgements based on "incomplete knowledge." The assumptions we use everyday are based solely on incomplete knowledge. Either you know enough about philosophy to know you statement is utter bunk, or you need to learn enough about philosophy to realize it's utter bunk.
You watch a crappy film and decide to walk out before it's over, that's incomplete knowledge. Same thing here. The quality wasn't good enough on what I read to complete the process. Same as the movie analogy, I find it highly unlikely that the good stuff is hiding where I haven't read yet.
You might also wish to note a not insignifcant chunk of that material is based on documents provided by WotC to AO, such as the "Dregoth Ascending" adventure (an unreleased 2E product the AO team converted and released for 3E).
So a good chunk of it is based on notes left over from the revised era material? No wonder I don't like any of it. This actually is really helpful info as I've wondered why in the hell I've dislike AO stuff for years. They were really active when I first encountered them and had a goodly amount of stuff up, I downloaded it all and just thought it sucked. That explains a lot. Vehement does not begin to cover it.
Yes, there is a section of non-sanctioned fan-created, unofficial material archived on AO contained in the "Articles" section that is not considered "official", but this does not make up the bulk (or anywhere near it) of the available material as you seem to believe.
No. You haven't read my posts. I never made the distinction between official and unofficial materials. I never claimed that the bulk of their available material was official or unofficial. I don't care if it's sanctioned or not, I only commented on the quality. My assertion from the start was that the majority of the work presented there was either un-professional or out-and-out bad.
Not posturing, I simply found it laughable that in your sentence proclaiming that you were a professional writer you didn't manage basic grammar.
Unfortunately your "criticism" still suffers from the equivalent of the "You can't be a professional writer because you misspelled something!" argument. Well, worse, given that you think the sentence did not meet even "basic" grammatical correctness. Basically, just more posturing as a grade school grammarian.
As a trolling maneuver, pretty tame and overused: I only give this part of your attempt a "1". Boring. Unimaginative.
So you don't know the argument from authority fallacy. You claimed to be an authority because you were a professional writer. Thus claiming authority in this subject, and hoping that would sway the argument. A logical fallacy. I claimed no authority position (provable or otherwise) that would reinforce my position. You however, have.
Awesome! As I noted above, I suspected adding my credentials in there would bring out such a response, and it warms my heart to know my doing so helped you build this little strawman!
Unfortunately, it was still too simplistic and transparent! What were you thinking?
See, if you had said, "There are no doctors on this board!" and I had said, "I am a doctor." you would be committing the same accusative error as you committed here, since I did not claim professional status in order to say therefore you were wrong (as you know, this is what argumentum ad verecundiam is). Instead, I claimed professional status as a falsification of your claim that no professionals were a part of AO.
So, sorry. Unfortunately, not a very good trolling attempt, but only because it can be defeated with just basic reading comprehension skills. Maybe a "4", because it might have snared someone being less thoughtful, but I suspect I'm being too generous.
It would have been a much stronger attempt if you could have subtly tricked me into using my authority to make a claim about the AO material. Perhaps getting me to argue, "I'm a professional writer and I think AO's materials are top-notch quality!" or something along those lines. Then hit me with the authority fallacy to really get me into a corner!
But as presented, this was...premature.
Even if it hadn't been, that fallacy is a difficult one to swing, since appealing to authority is a fallacy only if the use of the authority to gain credibility is misplaced (which I'm sure you know, with authority being an important part of informal logic). Thus you have to be careful utilizing it. There are better fallacies you can accuse people of that aren't as arguable.
Regardless, I think waiting and using that sort of strategy would have worked out better for you than jumping on it this early in the game.
It's always better if you can construct a basic "argument" from valid criteria, not by changing the other party's words/actions (which is generally a pretty "beginner" tactic).
The other problem is that you already established early difficulties with reasoning a way to logical conclusions, given your panning of AO material as amateur and poorly written while simultaneously praising the ToO series.
That was too big a mistake with your persona early on, didn't let you establish yourself as reasonable, consistent, or rational. No one is going to take your trolling seriously if you can't establish reasoned consistency in your early arguments!
I have most of those credentials too. The difference is that I'm not swinging them in hopes of increasing the validity of my position. Hence your fallacy. {snip}
I'd have to give this section of your trolling attempt a..."2". Maybe. Sorry. Too much obvious snark, pretty blatant patronization, really low-level suggestive dismissal about the website and such -- not enough subtle incitement of nerd rage.
I mean, valiant attempt at trying to stir up hostilities since I wasn't really biting in the last post, but you should have recognized afterwards I wasn't going to crack that easy, and really kicked up the juice to get a reaction.
Either you know enough about philosophy to know you statement is utter bunk, or you need to learn enough about philosophy to realize it's utter bunk.
Wow! This is an excellent example of trolling! Picking at minutiae to both change the subject and insult the opponent! Complete redirection, putting the opponent on the defensive while completely obfuscating the point. This is how you do it. I have to give you a "10" for this bit. Well done!
No. You haven't read my posts. I never made the distinction between official and unofficial materials. I never claimed that the bulk of their available material was official or unofficial. I don't care if it's sanctioned or not...
I see, we should have ignored your complaints about how it wasn't official material, and now that the material can be established as really being so, well, that isn't what you were saying anyways. Got it.
Well, that's not a bad tactic -- the "you didn't read me, I didn't say that" -- probably a solid "5" or a bit more.
*sigh* Unfortunately, I can't continue this.
Your attempts are just too amateur, and simply not intellectually stimulating enough to keep me interested at this point. I do hope my pointers prove helpful if you choose to pursue your burgeoning career as a forum troll! And I thank you for the pleasant distraction this evening. Take care!
@blackbriar : Since you are so erudite and since you have read 60% of what athas.org made, please, enlight me on a few products made by them and give me constructive comments based on your reading. Explain me HOW and with EXAMPLES from these AO creations, how you came to the conclusion that it "should be avoided like plague".
Ah yes, if ever anybody here enjoy drinking piss, even if it's the only thing they can drink for age, feel free to contact me to explain that blbr was right.
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of calling someone who disagrees with you a troll approaches 1."
This discussion is out of hand.
You are now all throwing personal insults - which is out of place. This thread is de-volving like kids from Lord of the Flies.
I'm furious that this should be posted on a "n00b wants information" thread. Some new Dark Sun player wanted some help, and instead got a bunch of litter. Garbage.
@Blackbriar, you purposefully insulted a community of individuals that have made this forum their home. Opinion or not, it was an immature attempt to incite a group of individuals. RPGs in general thrive on community involvement - amateur or not - and directly insulting their contributions is also a direct insult to any gamer. Of course they're going to take offense! What did you expect? Their backs are straight, their hackles are raised and they are defending their territory.
@Everybody else, you need to learn to ignore a comment like this or respond appropriately. It's one loud individual that does not represent a community or readers at large. It's difficult not to take offense but you have to remember: "they don't know you! It isn't personal!" What you have done is allowed the few posts on this thread that are meaningful have become encircled by your "walls of text".
Not only has this thread become meaningless, but it also discourages new players from wanting to visit. What do you think the chances are that our poor n00b friend will respond here?
Let me be the first to give my sincere apology to seanyb47 (and I mean it). I feel like I hijacked your thread. This wasnt my intention. My only intention was to show what big_goon just said about insulting a community.
Hello Community,
I am a newcomer to dark sun but a semi-veteran to D&D. I started playing at the end of 2nd Edition but never experienced Dark Sun, so I am very excited for 4e update.
I have a few questions about the world for those of you who are vets:
(1) Are the sorc-kings dragons? I have been reading the Original Box set Wanderer's Journal (although I am not finishd yet), and it seems as though they are distinct presences.
(2) Are defilers/ preservers arcane casters? Or do these casters include primal magic?
(3) Can the average person distinguish between arcane, psionic, and primal magic? IE Would a templar kill an elemental cleric?
(4) What are good resources to read to learn more about the world? IE novels? Handbooks? 2e Resources? Does anyone have any favorites?
@seanyb47: here is a link to the DS3r7 download page at athas.org. Since it is free, and you can toss it after if you don't like it, I would recommend downloading it and reading the following sections, as they should help you get a feel for the setting:
1) The introduction.
2) Life on Athas chapter.
3) Magic and Psionics chapter
4) The Athasian Campaigns chapter
5) The Other Eras of Play chapter (this would be more for a brief overview of the history of the world).
Of course, the Wanderer's Journal is the best resource, and I have used it in my games as an actual book the players are allowed to access as their characters. I would also say that reading the Prism Pentad and the Lynn Abbey novels are good for a feel of the setting as well. Many people love the Abbey novels (myslef included) though you should be warned before hand that the history of her novels doesn't match "canon." That said, history in your DS is up to you, so take what you want. One of the things that is important and part of DS is that the history is a mystery, and even with all that is written in all the sources, some questions are never really answered. I like that, because it gives us freedom to decide things ourselves.
If you have more questions, don't hesitate to ask, because the community does want to help new people, and make sure the heat of the dark sun doesn't kill you.
@Blackbriar, you purposefully insulted a community of individuals that have made this forum their home. Opinion or not, it was an immature attempt to incite a group of individuals. RPGs in general thrive on community involvement - amateur or not - and directly insulting their contributions is also a direct insult to any gamer. Of course they're going to take offense! What did you expect? Their backs are straight, their hackles are raised and they are defending their territory.
@Everybody else, you need to learn to ignore a comment like this or respond appropriately. It's one loud individual that does not represent a community or readers at large. It's difficult not to take offense but you have to remember: "they don't know you! It isn't personal!" What you have done is allowed the few posts on this thread that are meaningful have become encircled by your "walls of text".
Avoid athas.org like the plague. Their efforts over the last few years have been commendable, but they are still fan efforts. Non-designers trying to design stuff. And fans trying to bolster their favorite bit of the world while ignoring their least favorite bits of the setting. Stick with the official stuff.
That's my first post. That's what caused everyone to freak out and jump down my throat. Yep, I shot back as the thread wore on, but that post is not a "direct insult" to anyone, not even the writers that worked on those projects, nor does that somehow insult every gamer ever. You're being dramatic.
And to clarify, my post is a direct personal insult to every gamer, but for everyone else "it isn't personal?" Okay. Must be fun to live there.
Big_Goon, I'm not sure I saw anyone other than BB making personal attacks[1]; that is possibly a far bigger problem to whether-or-not newcomers will want to participate in a community than walls of text created in dealing with such nonsense. Regardless, your points are well taken.
([1] unless you count outing troll-behaviors in response to personal attacks a personal attack, in which case I am guilty as charged)
Penn, yeah. Talk about flashbacks! Also, remember when we'd get one troll every few months, maybe? And now we've gotten a couple in under a month. Thankfully, we've gained many more reasonable and awesome members to the board, too, so on balance, a better situation than before.
1) I like many don't like the "Official history" of Athas, and preffer to have Athas not shoe horned down into the stuff done in the 2nd boxed set and novels.
I preffer a far weirder, and more mysteriosu past, more Clark Ashton Smith, ya know?
2) I don't have a problem with elemental clerics in town, because, as is noted by the Wanderer iirc, the Templars know the elemental clerics are USEFUL, and nobody but nobody is dumb enough to toss out a water cleric from town unless they have to in extremis. Pragmatism, the templars have no wish to stir up toruble with folk they may need
3) Likewise, I don't have a problem with common psionics, because, it's how folk have managed to survive in the face of lack of metals etc, and, it's not Earth.
To me though, lot of ordinary folk's psionics are very feeble or not combat related. A person who can harden bone and obsidian into metal strength tools is far more valuable than another "Killer".
4) Best add ons for Dark Sun IMHO were Dune Trader, Elves of Thas, ThriKreen of Athas, Ivory Triangle, Slave Tribes.
Avoid the 2nd "official" boxed set of the campaign
5) the novels...meh some are good, I find the flavour of Athas from the Prism Pentad far better than it's "game/history info"
Have fun!
Ahh, blocking users is fun. Eliminates the hassle of seeing inflammatory posts. I strongly recommend it.
We have that option here?
Ebay is our friend for that
Ahh, blocking users is fun. Eliminates the hassle of seeing inflammatory posts. I strongly recommend it.
We have that option here?
Yep. Click on the avatar or name of the offender, and then on the next page click "Block Member", and follow the additional "are you really sure"-like step, and presto, you no longer see offensive posts. You do see when the person posts, you just don't have the offending text actually there.
Hello Community,
I am a newcomer to dark sun but a semi-veteran to D&D. I started playing at the end of 2nd Edition but never experienced Dark Sun, so I am very excited for 4e update.
I have a few questions about the world for those of you who are vets:
(1) Are the sorc-kings dragons? I have been reading the Original Box set Wanderer's Journal (although I am not finishd yet), and it seems as though they are distinct presences.
(2) Are defilers/ preservers arcane casters? Or do these casters include primal magic?
(3) Can the average person distinguish between arcane, psionic, and primal magic? IE Would a templar kill an elemental cleric?
(4) What are good resources to read to learn more about the world? IE novels? Handbooks? 2e Resources? Does anyone have any favorites?
(1) All of the sorcerer-kings are dragons. Not all dragons are sorcerer kings. Somewhere along the way, the Sorcerer-Kings gained the ability to grant spells to followers -- that is what makes them the Sorcerer Kings. Regardless of "how" they got the ability (it's described in a couple of different ways in different source material) it's limited to the specific group of the original dragons. While a player can aspire to become a Dragon, she cannot become a Sorcerer-King, in the spell-granting sense.
(2) Yes. Defiling / Preserving is tied to Arcane magic.
(3) Average? Probably not. To your average slave or freeman, it's all scary. Templars, psionically trained nobles, and others that are actually likely be a source of danger to your PC are likely to have an inkling as to the difference. Tempalrs, particularly, would know better.
(4) Published books? Of those, I'd recommend the setting books -- the ones not so rules-heavy. Slave Tribes. Dune Traders. Veild Alliance (which does a good job of going beyond just the VA and describes most of the city states in greater detail) Ivory Triangle and City State of Tyr for area specific detail. Elf Tribes and Thri-Kreen of Athas for race-specific detail.
You used to be able to get PDFs for all these from RPGNow, but they took down all of their TSR content a year or two back. Not sure if there's a legal source for the PDFs anymore -- suppose I should find out....