Dark Sun specific weapon properties / materials - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Kurmudgeon Nov 15, 2011 1:04:44	So why is it, that in the Dark Sun campaign guide, what your weapon is made from makes zero difference, while what your armor is made from makes a big difference? So I know that the reason for the introduction of masterwork armor in order to help with defenses at higher levels, because of oversights, and they had to throw in some Athasian fluff, but they didn't need to do this weapons. So instead we got a sword, is a sword, is a sword no matter what it is made out of. I've brought up the weapon property thing in the past and people have argued that adding extra weapon properties would only clutter up the game, but if you’ve checked out MME, then you know that they just introduced quite a few new properties for weapons and armor, so that argument kind of got chucked out the window. When I first started my current campaign I made a list of materials and associated properties (and limitations) that the players could use for their characters weapons. Some of these materials have drawbacks to them, okay most of them. My players complained that they couldn’t keep track of these things as the CB wouldn’t let them add it to their character sheet (appearantly pens are out of fashion), so these properties got left by the wayside. So now that the CB content is customizable again (Yay!, finally), my players have no excuse for not being able to keep track of these things. I designed these as a means to add a bit of mechanical punch to the DS weapon fluff. I know that there is a paradigm that says we shouldn’t penalize PC’s , and I agree, so these aren’t penalties, they are choices , because choices are good. So I blew the silt off of my list and refined it, altered it a bit and am thinking to start using it later this week or at least by the end of the month. I’m looking for input specifically on the properties themselves or possibly new properties, and not the worthiness or my lack of sanity in adding new properties to the game. Show For any weapon type not listed in the DS campaign guide you must decide what material that the weapon is made from. By this, I mean the part of the weapon actually causing the damage. You might for instance have a sword that is made out of wood but the edge is lined with obsidian blades held in place by pitch. So the weapon would be considered to be an obsidian weapon and would have the Brittle property. Weapon Properties Weak – Weapons with this property break more often than weapons made from other materials. On a roll of a 1 or 2 the weapon breaks. These weapons tend to be cheaper than weapons made out of more durable materials and cost 3/4 the listed price. Dull – Weapons with this property do a step-wise decrease in damage when the weapon type is designed for stabbing or slashing attacks. When used for weapons that do blunt force trauma, damage is unaffected. Brittle – Weapons with this property often shatter when they hit a solid target with great force. On a roll of a natural 1 or 20, the weapon breaks. When the weapon breaks because of a critical hit, all extra damage from the weapons critical damage dice becomes ongoing damage (save ends). When the roll is a 1, the weapon can be fixed until the character takes an extended rest, and has access to an Obsidian nodule. When the roll is natural 20 the weapon is shattered and cannot be repaired. Durable – Weapons with this property are made of materials that can withstand repeated powerful blows without breaking. On a roll of a natural 1, the player can accept the roll and miss and save his weapon from possibly breaking. Alternately, the player may choose to risk his weapon, and reroll the attack, but if the second attack misses the player must make a saving throw* to see if the weapon breaks. A failed save means the weapon breaks and can not be repaired without extensive effort. * Magic weapons gain a saving throw bonus against breakage equal to their enhancement bonus. The enchantment on a broken weapon can be transferred to a new weapon when an appropriate weapon is found and the proper ritual performed. Materials and Associated Properties Obsidian – Brittle Wood – Dull Groundstone – Durable, Dull Metal – Durable Bone – Weak Claw / Tooth – Light Blade, Spears, Axes and Picks only? Chitin - Dull Agafari Wood – Dull, Durable
#2 Raddu76 Nov 15, 2011 9:19:38	I like it! I dont see why it'd be too much trouble.
#3 Band2 Nov 15, 2011 12:20:38	You have some good ideas. I have some questions though. To start with where is the standard option from the DSCS? (On a roll of a natural 1, the player can accept the roll and miss and save his weapon from breaking or reroll the attack roll and have the weapon break.) Are all the weapons assumed to have this property? Weak Does this include the “the player can accept the roll and miss and save his weapon from breaking or reroll the attack roll and have the weapon break.”? Or do you intend to remove the player’s choice and the weapon breaks every time? Brittle This is a pretty cool mechanic. But same comment as above. Does this include the “the player can accept the roll and miss and save his weapon from breaking or reroll the attack roll and have the weapon break.”? Or do you intend to remove the player’s choice and the weapon breaks every time? Also the difference in fixing the weapon between a 1 and 20 seems arbitraty. Just keep it simple and have the same mechanic. “the weapon can not be fixed until the character takes an extended rest, and has access to an Obsidian nodule” Durable Why the saving throw? That adds yet another d20 roll, and would slow down the round. I would keep the same mechanic from the DSCS, if the reroll misses on a 1-5 then the weapon breaks. But include your magic weapon bonus to the roll, so a +1 weapon would only break on a 1-4, and so on with a minimum reroll break on a 1. Materials and Associated Properties The list seems to match up to the properties from above well. But 2 comments. Claw/Tooth – does not have a property. It only lists possible weapons. I am guessing it is the same as bone? Chitin – This is the only one I do not agree with. Why would chitin be dull? I could see it similar to bone as weak or obsidian as brittle.
#4 Reg06 Nov 20, 2011 10:22:49	Bone should not be weak. Bone is almost as hard as glass, and rather compressive. It is a bit brittle though, so maybe brittle.
#5 fromost_the_grimm_02 Dec 01, 2011 16:17:10	I fully agree with the OP. That said though, weapon materials were broken down in the 2E system, with inferior materials (i.e. anything other than metal) giving a small penalty to attack numbers. While it kinda worked on paper, there's nothing players dislike more than having to constantly apply penalties to their attack stats. What do you do for the various Weapon Expertise feats/feat taxes? Must your players choose these, or do you give them freely? If the latter, one option is to eschew the feats altogether, and instead use the availability of increasingly better weapon materials to give the bonus granted by the expertise feat. In this way, characters effectiveness in combat increases as they level in line with the Expertise feat's fixes to the basis 4E mechanics ... and you add a sprinkling of milieu-specific flavour to your campaign. For example, basic obsidian weapons could give no bonus, but a Cold Obsidian weapon (from the deepest levels of Urik's Obsidian mines) could confer a +1 bonus to attacks. Make such weapons available around 5th level, or wherever you'd want Weapon Expertise feats to kick in. Likewise, add the various riders from each Expertise feat to rarer materials ... weapons made from Kragmortan Stone may confer a +1 bonus to attacks, and increase the number of squares you push or slide creatures with weapon attacks made with such a weapon, as per Bludgeon Expertise's rider. And if you're playing the low magic item/inherent bonuses system, you'll see your players again be interested in gaining better weapons, ultimately seeking out metal weapon's full +3 bonus by Epic tier.
#6 Kurmudgeon Dec 09, 2011 1:22:20	Thanks for your comments, I appreciate the insight. I will have to re-read all of the points made and consider them more fully before I reply. I will also be considering how to adjust the properties, to make them more practical and/or effective.
#7 Kurmudgeon Dec 09, 2011 1:56:24	Yes obsidian and flint are both brittle solids and though obsidian is generally sharper than flint, chert, jasper, silicified chalk or any of the other materials used to make chipped stone tools, I make no attempt to tease those differences out mechanically. They are all close enough that it really makes no difference damage wise. These properties have more to do with the durability of the weapons and how likely they are to break and what they can be used to make. It is an attempt to add a bit of flavor to the game, and to also give that same flavor a bit of a punch by having some simple mechanics to back it up.
#8 Chiba_Monkey Dec 09, 2011 4:19:06	Except that you aren't doing that realistically either. Right now you consider wooden spears "dull" and bones "weak". Lest we forget, a wooden spear killed a Sorceror King...
#9 waxwingslain Dec 31, 2011 12:35:58	I use modified special rules for metal...basically I use the "heroic weapon breakage" rule (if you roll a 1, you can choose to roll again and risk destroying your weapon, even magical weapons), but for metal weapons, instead of destroying your weapon on a failed second roll, you simply drop it in your square (and can pick it up with a minor action next round). I didn't want to deal with keeping track of -1s, nor with players carrying around bundles of obsidian swords so they can keep smashing them, but still wanted to make metal advantageous. It's working pretty well so far--they really value their non-magical steel dagger because they basically get free re-rolls on a 1, but it comes up uncommonly enough it doesn't hugely impact balance.
#10 waxwingslain Jan 08, 2012 9:36:22	Very Dark Sun-specific question: there are some materials the books refer to as being as hard as metal, impenetrable, etc. Agafari wood is one; dasl (thri-kreen crystal saliva, from which chatkchas are made) is another. Do you treat them as metal for whatever breakage rule you're using for your campaign? I don't, just because I want to underscore metal's importance. However, in certain circumstances, I might acknowledge my thri-kreen player's dasl as being a cut above the other players' bone and stone weapons...maybe when he's chopping at a door or something, I don't know.
#11 wyld_mutation Feb 13, 2012 14:31:01	The concept of weapon breakage, from a players point of view, feels bad. So do -1s and similar mechanics. I'd recommend just saying that metal (or rare matrial) weapons are a cut above the rest gaining a +1 masyterwork proficiency bonus. The worl is designed with the idea that EVERYONE has similarly weakened equipment, so rather than penalizing the basic equipment it is far more efficient to "buff" the rare and legendary equipment. It just FEELS better. @waxwing: I'd say give him some minor little bonus. Like +1 damage on a critical hit for using a weapon that's equivalent to stell (consider that they're against non-metallic armor, it helps rationalize the bonus)

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Kurmudgeon

Nov 15, 2011 1:04:44

So why is it, that in the Dark Sun campaign guide, what your weapon is made from makes zero difference, while what your armor is made from makes a big difference? So I know that the reason for the introduction of masterwork armor in order to help with defenses at higher levels, because of oversights, and they had to throw in some Athasian fluff, but they didn't need to do this weapons. So instead we got a sword, is a sword, is a sword no matter what it is made out of. I've brought up the weapon property thing in the past and people have argued that adding extra weapon properties would only clutter up the game, but if you’ve checked out MME, then you know that they just introduced quite a few new properties for weapons and armor, so that argument kind of got chucked out the window.

When I first started my current campaign I made a list of materials and associated properties (and limitations) that the players could use for their characters weapons. Some of these materials have drawbacks to them, okay most of them. My players complained that they couldn’t keep track of these things as the CB wouldn’t let them add it to their character sheet (appearantly pens are out of fashion), so these properties got left by the wayside. So now that the CB content is customizable again (Yay!, finally), my players have no excuse for not being able to keep track of these things.

I designed these as a means to add a bit of mechanical punch to the DS weapon fluff. I know that there is a paradigm that says we shouldn’t penalize PC’s , and I agree, so these aren’t penalties, they are choices , because choices are good.

So I blew the silt off of my list and refined it, altered it a bit and am thinking to start using it later this week or at least by the end of the month. I’m looking for input specifically on the properties themselves or possibly new properties, and not the worthiness or my lack of sanity in adding new properties to the game.

Show

For any weapon type not listed in the DS campaign guide you must decide what material that the weapon is made from. By this, I mean the part of the weapon actually causing the damage. You might for instance have a sword that is made out of wood but the edge is lined with obsidian blades held in place by pitch. So the weapon would be considered to be an obsidian weapon and would have the Brittle property.

Weapon Properties

Weak – Weapons with this property break more often than weapons made from other materials. On a roll of a 1 or 2 the weapon breaks. These weapons tend to be cheaper than weapons made out of more durable materials and cost 3/4 the listed price.

Dull – Weapons with this property do a step-wise decrease in damage when the weapon type is designed for stabbing or slashing attacks. When used for weapons that do blunt force trauma, damage is unaffected.

Brittle – Weapons with this property often shatter when they hit a solid target with great force. On a roll of a natural 1 or 20, the weapon breaks. When the weapon breaks because of a critical hit, all extra damage from the weapons critical damage dice becomes ongoing damage (save ends). When the roll is a 1, the weapon can be fixed until the character takes an extended rest, and has access to an Obsidian nodule. When the roll is natural 20 the weapon is shattered and cannot be repaired.

Durable – Weapons with this property are made of materials that can withstand repeated powerful blows without breaking. On a roll of a natural 1, the player can accept the roll and miss and save his weapon from possibly breaking. Alternately, the player may choose to risk his weapon, and reroll the attack, but if the second attack misses the player must make a saving throw* to see if the weapon breaks. A failed save means the weapon breaks and can not be repaired without extensive effort.

* Magic weapons gain a saving throw bonus against breakage equal to their enhancement bonus. The enchantment on a broken weapon can be transferred to a new weapon when an appropriate weapon is found and the proper ritual performed.

Materials and Associated Properties

Obsidian – Brittle

Wood – Dull

Groundstone – Durable, Dull

Metal – Durable

Bone – Weak

Claw / Tooth – Light Blade, Spears, Axes and Picks only?

Chitin - Dull

Agafari Wood – Dull, Durable

Raddu76

Nov 15, 2011 9:19:38

I like it! I dont see why it'd be too much trouble.

Band2

Nov 15, 2011 12:20:38

You have some good ideas. I have some questions though.

To start with where is the standard option from the DSCS? (On a roll of a natural 1, the player can accept the roll and miss and save his weapon from breaking or reroll the attack roll and have the weapon break.) Are all the weapons assumed to have this property?

Weak
Does this include the “the player can accept the roll and miss and save his weapon from breaking or reroll the attack roll and have the weapon break.”? Or do you intend to remove the player’s choice and the weapon breaks every time?

Brittle
This is a pretty cool mechanic.
But same comment as above. Does this include the “the player can accept the roll and miss and save his weapon from breaking or reroll the attack roll and have the weapon break.”? Or do you intend to remove the player’s choice and the weapon breaks every time?
Also the difference in fixing the weapon between a 1 and 20 seems arbitraty. Just keep it simple and have the same mechanic. “the weapon can not be fixed until the character takes an extended rest, and has access to an Obsidian nodule”

Durable
Why the saving throw? That adds yet another d20 roll, and would slow down the round. I would keep the same mechanic from the DSCS, if the reroll misses on a 1-5 then the weapon breaks. But include your magic weapon bonus to the roll, so a +1 weapon would only break on a 1-4, and so on with a minimum reroll break on a 1.

Materials and Associated Properties

The list seems to match up to the properties from above well. But 2 comments.

Claw/Tooth – does not have a property. It only lists possible weapons. I am guessing it is the same as bone?

Chitin – This is the only one I do not agree with. Why would chitin be dull? I could see it similar to bone as weak or obsidian as brittle.

Reg06

Nov 20, 2011 10:22:49

Bone should not be weak. Bone is almost as hard as glass, and rather compressive.
It is a bit brittle though, so maybe brittle.

fromost_the_grimm_02

Dec 01, 2011 16:17:10

I fully agree with the OP.

That said though, weapon materials were broken down in the 2E system, with inferior materials (i.e. anything other than metal) giving a small penalty to attack numbers. While it kinda worked on paper, there's nothing players dislike more than having to constantly apply penalties to their attack stats.

What do you do for the various Weapon Expertise feats/feat taxes? Must your players choose these, or do you give them freely? If the latter, one option is to eschew the feats altogether, and instead use the availability of increasingly better weapon materials to give the bonus granted by the expertise feat. In this way, characters effectiveness in combat increases as they level in line with the Expertise feat's fixes to the basis 4E mechanics ... and you add a sprinkling of milieu-specific flavour to your campaign.

For example, basic obsidian weapons could give no bonus, but a Cold Obsidian weapon (from the deepest levels of Urik's Obsidian mines) could confer a +1 bonus to attacks. Make such weapons available around 5th level, or wherever you'd want Weapon Expertise feats to kick in. Likewise, add the various riders from each Expertise feat to rarer materials ... weapons made from Kragmortan Stone may confer a +1 bonus to attacks, and increase the number of squares you push or slide creatures with weapon attacks made with such a weapon, as per Bludgeon Expertise's rider.

And if you're playing the low magic item/inherent bonuses system, you'll see your players again be interested in gaining better weapons, ultimately seeking out metal weapon's full +3 bonus by Epic tier.

Kurmudgeon

Dec 09, 2011 1:22:20

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate the insight. I will have to re-read all of the points made and consider them more fully before I reply. I will also be considering how to adjust the properties, to make them more practical and/or effective.

Kurmudgeon

Dec 09, 2011 1:56:24

Yes obsidian and flint are both brittle solids and though obsidian is generally sharper than flint, chert, jasper, silicified chalk or any of the other materials used to make chipped stone tools, I make no attempt to tease those differences out mechanically. They are all close enough that it really makes no difference damage wise. These properties have more to do with the durability of the weapons and how likely they are to break and what they can be used to make. It is an attempt to add a bit of flavor to the game, and to also give that same flavor a bit of a punch by having some simple mechanics to back it up.

Chiba_Monkey

Dec 09, 2011 4:19:06

Except that you aren't doing that realistically either. Right now you consider wooden spears "dull" and bones "weak".

Lest we forget, a wooden spear killed a Sorceror King...

waxwingslain

Dec 31, 2011 12:35:58

I use modified special rules for metal...basically I use the "heroic weapon breakage" rule (if you roll a 1, you can choose to roll again and risk destroying your weapon, even magical weapons), but for metal weapons, instead of destroying your weapon on a failed second roll, you simply drop it in your square (and can pick it up with a minor action next round). I didn't want to deal with keeping track of -1s, nor with players carrying around bundles of obsidian swords so they can keep smashing them, but still wanted to make metal advantageous. It's working pretty well so far--they really value their non-magical steel dagger because they basically get free re-rolls on a 1, but it comes up uncommonly enough it doesn't hugely impact balance.

#10

waxwingslain

Jan 08, 2012 9:36:22

Very Dark Sun-specific question: there are some materials the books refer to as being as hard as metal, impenetrable, etc. Agafari wood is one; dasl (thri-kreen crystal saliva, from which chatkchas are made) is another. Do you treat them as metal for whatever breakage rule you're using for your campaign?

I don't, just because I want to underscore metal's importance. However, in certain circumstances, I might acknowledge my thri-kreen player's dasl as being a cut above the other players' bone and stone weapons...maybe when he's chopping at a door or something, I don't know.

#11

wyld_mutation

Feb 13, 2012 14:31:01

The concept of weapon breakage, from a players point of view, feels bad. So do -1s and similar mechanics.

I'd recommend just saying that metal (or rare matrial) weapons are a cut above the rest gaining a +1 masyterwork proficiency bonus. The worl is designed with the idea that EVERYONE has similarly weakened equipment, so rather than penalizing the basic equipment it is far more efficient to "buff" the rare and legendary equipment.

It just FEELS better.

@waxwing: I'd say give him some minor little bonus. Like +1 damage on a critical hit for using a weapon that's equivalent to stell (consider that they're against non-metallic armor, it helps rationalize the bonus)