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Dark Sun Trading

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
turlough
Feb 04, 2010 9:06:02 I have Dune Trader from the old 2E books and it gives some great information on trading. However, in a world with slavery, TSR/WotC has glossed over those implications, as they probably should.

So, I offer an optional source. Manacle and Coin, a sourcebook for Exalted, has two chapters in it that are very good for an adult Dark Sun campaign. It deals with drugs and slavery and does so very well. Obviously, this can vary with the audience but I do think as a supplement to Dune Trader, this is a good source. It's probably only good for DMs as background material.

That's just me. Again, nothing against WotC's policies. I have no problem with them. This supplement has good ideas and I like using anything good I find for other games.

turlough
#2
RalofTyr
Feb 24, 2010 0:05:19 Well, you could read numerous history books about the slave trade, especially Roman-era slave trading, as Dark Sun slavery is based of off that.

One problem with slaves on Athas and like a problem Romans had with slaves, is that, the slaves are the same ethnic stock as the the masters. It poses a moral problem. However, in Athas, a Mul as a slave to a human noble would be more justified in the Noble's eye as that slave is a slave race and not my kind.

Also, given the cruelties involved, I'd say, a slave trader can't be off a good alignment.
#3
turlough
Feb 24, 2010 13:07:04 Ral - good points! I do have plenty of books on Rome and so could use them as a source.

What I liked about Manacle and Coin was the RPG perspective it puts on it. Certainly, their magic is different but at least it thinks about things like that, something the history books don't. It also talks about drugs as a way to keep slaves, and serfs from rebelling. Again, not sure that the history books would all have that.

However, I can't agree that the slave trader is of non good alignment. By our twentieth century standards, yes, but again if you read the history books, slavery wasn't considered good or evil, it just was. Sure, no one wanted to be a slave but they also didn't think to change it.

I guess what I am saying is that it is a continuum. There are good and evil slave traders. It depends how black and white or grey you want the campaign to be.

Thanks!

turlough
#4
Pennarin
Feb 24, 2010 14:52:13 The two seasons of the HBO tv series Rome show - as far as I know - historically accurate social interactions between Romans of all levels of life, from slaves to nobles, for the target time period.

It's a must watch! Looks a lot like Tyr and Balic, with patricians, senators, and slaves.
#5
turlough
Feb 24, 2010 15:05:37 I have it! Love it! And agree, it's perfect for Balic.

I don't know about Tyr, though, but I guess I can see why you say that. Kalak reminds me more of the Emperor than a princeps. That's me, though.

I haven't watched more but Spartacus might also have some good ideas, since it is subtitled, Blood and Sand. The few I have seen do have good ideas.

turlough
#6
RalofTyr
Feb 24, 2010 15:37:09 Yes, "Sparticus: Blood and Sand" is good. Once you get past all the white people playing Romans (not too historically accurate) and the soft core porn, it's a really, really good show. It even has Lucy Lawless in it (Xena).

The last few episodes had political intriges between noble houses.

You're right about alignment. That would mean, in contect of the American civil war, "North, Good, South, Evil" alignments.

#7
big_goon
Feb 24, 2010 16:01:17 Thanks all for this information. I'll try and find a copy of the Exalted book. The social structures of Athas are really very interesting. I've been wanting to watch the tv show Rome, too.

It can be difficult to role-play, because of the good/evil stance we've developed in modern culture. Players are constantly striving to free slaves (themselves and others), regardless of the consequences. They shrug off the "illegal" arguments and do it anyways. They will hardly ever take slaves in trades, and if they do, they free the slaves for free.

It's frustrating!

Maybe I'll get the players to watch Rome too.
#8
greyorm
Feb 24, 2010 17:35:55 I'm not a fan of the moral subjectivity argument, mainly because if you go back far enough or look at any single culture in isolation, and you can find any practice or belief you'd like argued as "good" or as "evil". Which means labelling anything as either is pointless and meaningless.

As well, if you look, you'll find there was plenty of opposition to slavery historically, but the powers that be considered it important to their purposes. That doesn't mean, however, that it was "good".
#9
RalofTyr
Feb 25, 2010 16:52:12 Now that I think about it, AD&D 2nd Edition: Historical Guide to Rome, does have rules on slave trading.

It can be difficult to role-play, because of the good/evil stance we've developed in modern culture. Players are constantly striving to free slaves (themselves and others), regardless of the consequences. They shrug off the "illegal" arguments and do it anyways. They will hardly ever take slaves in trades, and if they do, they free the slaves for free.

If you're a Dark Sun Dune Trader and you find an escaped slave, the first thing you should think of, is how to capture him so you can sell him.

Also, our group had no problem selling other players and NPCs into slavery.

#10
turlough
Feb 26, 2010 12:03:01
I'm not a fan of the moral subjectivity argument, mainly because if you go back far enough or look at any single culture in isolation, and you can find any practice or belief you'd like argued as "good" or as "evil". Which means labelling anything as either is pointless and meaningless.

As well, if you look, you'll find there was plenty of opposition to slavery historically, but the powers that be considered it important to their purposes. That doesn't mean, however, that it was "good".

Again, that's why I said that it depends on the group playing and how they want the campaign to be. Black and white or grey?

If a group wants to play it as freeing the slaves, that's great as long as they are having fun. If another group wants to get rid of the SK and let other things take care of themselves, again that's great if they are having fun.

I guess my big complaint about labeling slavery and slavers as evil is that it then detracts from the evil of the SKs. Further, now you are fighting a war of ideals, which is a lot harder and usually never works. And, really, how different were serfs from slaves? How different am I as a "wage slave" from a serf? Do I really have a choice to quit if that means I lose my house or my family?

I'm not advocating slavery but I do want the system to have verisimilitude and that means dealing with these types of subjects. And it's not just slavery. There are tons of subjects that can be viewed this way, slavery probably being the worst.

turlough

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 turlough Feb 04, 2010 9:06:02	I have Dune Trader from the old 2E books and it gives some great information on trading. However, in a world with slavery, TSR/WotC has glossed over those implications, as they probably should. So, I offer an optional source. Manacle and Coin, a sourcebook for Exalted, has two chapters in it that are very good for an adult Dark Sun campaign. It deals with drugs and slavery and does so very well. Obviously, this can vary with the audience but I do think as a supplement to Dune Trader, this is a good source. It's probably only good for DMs as background material. That's just me. Again, nothing against WotC's policies. I have no problem with them. This supplement has good ideas and I like using anything good I find for other games. turlough
#2 RalofTyr Feb 24, 2010 0:05:19	Well, you could read numerous history books about the slave trade, especially Roman-era slave trading, as Dark Sun slavery is based of off that. One problem with slaves on Athas and like a problem Romans had with slaves, is that, the slaves are the same ethnic stock as the the masters. It poses a moral problem. However, in Athas, a Mul as a slave to a human noble would be more justified in the Noble's eye as that slave is a slave race and not my kind. Also, given the cruelties involved, I'd say, a slave trader can't be off a good alignment.
#3 turlough Feb 24, 2010 13:07:04	Ral - good points! I do have plenty of books on Rome and so could use them as a source. What I liked about Manacle and Coin was the RPG perspective it puts on it. Certainly, their magic is different but at least it thinks about things like that, something the history books don't. It also talks about drugs as a way to keep slaves, and serfs from rebelling. Again, not sure that the history books would all have that. However, I can't agree that the slave trader is of non good alignment. By our twentieth century standards, yes, but again if you read the history books, slavery wasn't considered good or evil, it just was. Sure, no one wanted to be a slave but they also didn't think to change it. I guess what I am saying is that it is a continuum. There are good and evil slave traders. It depends how black and white or grey you want the campaign to be. Thanks! turlough
#4 Pennarin Feb 24, 2010 14:52:13	The two seasons of the HBO tv series Rome show - as far as I know - historically accurate social interactions between Romans of all levels of life, from slaves to nobles, for the target time period. It's a must watch! Looks a lot like Tyr and Balic, with patricians, senators, and slaves.
#5 turlough Feb 24, 2010 15:05:37	I have it! Love it! And agree, it's perfect for Balic. I don't know about Tyr, though, but I guess I can see why you say that. Kalak reminds me more of the Emperor than a princeps. That's me, though. I haven't watched more but Spartacus might also have some good ideas, since it is subtitled, Blood and Sand. The few I have seen do have good ideas. turlough
#6 RalofTyr Feb 24, 2010 15:37:09	Yes, "Sparticus: Blood and Sand" is good. Once you get past all the white people playing Romans (not too historically accurate) and the soft core porn, it's a really, really good show. It even has Lucy Lawless in it (Xena). The last few episodes had political intriges between noble houses. You're right about alignment. That would mean, in contect of the American civil war, "North, Good, South, Evil" alignments.
#7 big_goon Feb 24, 2010 16:01:17	Thanks all for this information. I'll try and find a copy of the Exalted book. The social structures of Athas are really very interesting. I've been wanting to watch the tv show Rome, too. It can be difficult to role-play, because of the good/evil stance we've developed in modern culture. Players are constantly striving to free slaves (themselves and others), regardless of the consequences. They shrug off the "illegal" arguments and do it anyways. They will hardly ever take slaves in trades, and if they do, they free the slaves for free. It's frustrating! Maybe I'll get the players to watch Rome too.
#8 greyorm Feb 24, 2010 17:35:55	I'm not a fan of the moral subjectivity argument, mainly because if you go back far enough or look at any single culture in isolation, and you can find any practice or belief you'd like argued as "good" or as "evil". Which means labelling anything as either is pointless and meaningless. As well, if you look, you'll find there was plenty of opposition to slavery historically, but the powers that be considered it important to their purposes. That doesn't mean, however, that it was "good".
#9 RalofTyr Feb 25, 2010 16:52:12	Now that I think about it, AD&D 2nd Edition: Historical Guide to Rome, does have rules on slave trading. It can be difficult to role-play, because of the good/evil stance we've developed in modern culture. Players are constantly striving to free slaves (themselves and others), regardless of the consequences. They shrug off the "illegal" arguments and do it anyways. They will hardly ever take slaves in trades, and if they do, they free the slaves for free. If you're a Dark Sun Dune Trader and you find an escaped slave, the first thing you should think of, is how to capture him so you can sell him. Also, our group had no problem selling other players and NPCs into slavery.
#10 turlough Feb 26, 2010 12:03:01	I'm not a fan of the moral subjectivity argument, mainly because if you go back far enough or look at any single culture in isolation, and you can find any practice or belief you'd like argued as "good" or as "evil". Which means labelling anything as either is pointless and meaningless. As well, if you look, you'll find there was plenty of opposition to slavery historically, but the powers that be considered it important to their purposes. That doesn't mean, however, that it was "good". Again, that's why I said that it depends on the group playing and how they want the campaign to be. Black and white or grey? If a group wants to play it as freeing the slaves, that's great as long as they are having fun. If another group wants to get rid of the SK and let other things take care of themselves, again that's great if they are having fun. I guess my big complaint about labeling slavery and slavers as evil is that it then detracts from the evil of the SKs. Further, now you are fighting a war of ideals, which is a lot harder and usually never works. And, really, how different were serfs from slaves? How different am I as a "wage slave" from a serf? Do I really have a choice to quit if that means I lose my house or my family? I'm not advocating slavery but I do want the system to have verisimilitude and that means dealing with these types of subjects. And it's not just slavery. There are tons of subjects that can be viewed this way, slavery probably being the worst. turlough