Dark Sun weapon specialist feats aren't [multiclass] feats. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Dark Sun weapon specialist feats aren't [multiclass] feats.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
DMaple
Aug 26, 2010 16:42:38 I was wondering should the feats in Dragon #368, like Net Training, etc. Still be [multiclass] considering similar feats for weaopns in Dark Sun aren't? It does seem an unnessary restriction.
#2
FlashbackJon
Aug 27, 2010 11:11:15 No, there's no entry feat that provides some extra benefit when using them (which is what justifies the multiclass restriction on the non-Dark Sun ones). They're just plan ol' powerswaps, which are "pricey" enough as is.
#3
DMaple
Aug 27, 2010 13:58:27 I'm not sure they justify the multiclass restriction, at all. They have already removed the multiclass restriction for all but the entry level feat.

After all shouldn't a feat provide some extra benefit now admittedly these are superior weapons, but in the net for example as written without "slowing" proficiency benfit of taking Net Training [Multiclass Net] is actually worse than a Simple Javalin. To warrant being superior it should really have slowing as a feature of the weapon not require a special feat.

In fact because it requires a special feat the Arena Fighter from Dark Sun actually misses out, and his class ability is less useful.

#4
Wolf505
Aug 27, 2010 14:13:03 The new feats are Feat Powers, much like skill powers in that they give you a new Utility/Encounter/Daily power, but it balances it by making it replace one of your current powers. The multi-class weapon specialist feats all give you a constant effect for a given weapon, like net powers slowing the target, or being able to use the spiked chain as a double weapon. The nice thing is that the only pre-req for the feat powers is that you be proficient with the weapon. So if, for example, you wanted your Psion to have a little bit of melee ability, you could buy one of these feats. It could be useful for an arcane character who is looking to hide their arcane abilities more easily. So if they're in a situation where using arcane powers would be bad, they aren't helpless.
#5
FlashbackJon
Aug 27, 2010 17:28:05
I'm not sure they justify the multiclass restriction, at all. They have already removed the multiclass restriction for all but the entry level feat.

After all shouldn't a feat provide some extra benefit now admittedly these are superior weapons, but in the net for example as written without "slowing" proficiency benfit of taking Net Training [Multiclass Net] is actually worse than a Simple Javalin. To warrant being superior it should really have slowing as a feature of the weapon not require a special feat.

In fact because it requires a special feat the Arena Fighter from Dark Sun actually misses out, and his class ability is less useful.

The multiclass feat Net Training provides a slow UtEoyNT on every attack on top of granting a Superior Weapon Proficiency, and allows access to power-swap feats. This absolutely justifies using up your multiclass slot, and I'd argue that the slow effect is worth a feat by itself, considering no other slow-granting feat is so unconditional. If the multiclass restriction were removed, the feat would have to do substantially less.

If you're claiming that a Net, by default, isn't worth the feat for Superior Weapon Proficiency, that's another story entirely. But the net is definitely NOT worse than a javelin. It is arguably worse than the throwing hammer or handaxe though. Except, of course, that it has this feat support.

The weapon should NOT have the slow as an inherent feature though, even when superior.
#6
DMaple
Aug 27, 2010 18:11:15
The multiclass feat Net Training provides a slow UtEoyNT on every attack on top of granting a Superior Weapon Proficiency, and allows access to power-swap feats.

The only extra the Net Training feat gives is the slow effect. You don't need Net Training to get access to the power-swap feats because the exact same feats without the multiclass restriction are now available in Dark Sun Campaign setting.

The thing is a Net without the slow ability isn't worth a Weapon Proficiency feat on it's own. Without the slow ability it is technicially comparable to a Javalin which is a simple weapon.

So either the Net should be dropped down to being a martial or simple weapon, or the slow ability should be added for anyone that is proficient with it, and the Net Training feat removed.

This absolutely justifies using up your multiclass slot, and I'd argue that the slow effect is worth a feat by itself, considering no other slow-granting feat is so unconditional. If the multiclass restriction were removed, the feat would have to do substantially less.

I agree to some degree the slow ability perhaps should be a feat on it's own. Then none Arena fighters would have to spend a feat to become proficient and then another to slow people. Where as Arena fighters could choose it as one of their weapons and then just spend a feat, rather than a feat and multiclass options.

This way no one needs to give up multiclassing, but it costs more for none Arena Fighters to make the best of it, but about the same for Arena Fighters who's theme suits this weapon.

If you're claiming that a Net, by default, isn't worth the feat for Superior Weapon Proficiency, that's another story entirely.

That's exactly what I'm claiming, which is unfortunately what it costs for an Arena Fighter (perhaps the most archetypial class to use it).

But the net is definitely NOT worse than a javelin.

It is definiately comparable. Without the slowing ability it does the same damage, has the same proficiency bonus and less range, the only advantage it has is being off-hand.

It is arguably worse than the throwing hammer or handaxe though. Except, of course, that it has this feat support.

Only for just the slow ability and nothing else. It cost not only a feat, but a your option to Multiclass.

The weapon should NOT have the slow as an inherent feature though, even when superior.

Why not? For those proficient in it's use. People that aren't Arena Fighters want to use it spend the feat and get Net Training and gain not only proficiency but the slow ability anyway. The only class to benefit from it would be the Arena Fighters, who would actually get a benifit from there class ability to use weapons that suit their theme.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 DMaple Aug 26, 2010 16:42:38	I was wondering should the feats in Dragon #368, like Net Training, etc. Still be [multiclass] considering similar feats for weaopns in Dark Sun aren't? It does seem an unnessary restriction.
#2 FlashbackJon Aug 27, 2010 11:11:15	No, there's no entry feat that provides some extra benefit when using them (which is what justifies the multiclass restriction on the non-Dark Sun ones). They're just plan ol' powerswaps, which are "pricey" enough as is.
#3 DMaple Aug 27, 2010 13:58:27	I'm not sure they justify the multiclass restriction, at all. They have already removed the multiclass restriction for all but the entry level feat. After all shouldn't a feat provide some extra benefit now admittedly these are superior weapons, but in the net for example as written without "slowing" proficiency benfit of taking Net Training [Multiclass Net] is actually worse than a Simple Javalin. To warrant being superior it should really have slowing as a feature of the weapon not require a special feat. In fact because it requires a special feat the Arena Fighter from Dark Sun actually misses out, and his class ability is less useful.
#4 Wolf505 Aug 27, 2010 14:13:03	The new feats are Feat Powers, much like skill powers in that they give you a new Utility/Encounter/Daily power, but it balances it by making it replace one of your current powers. The multi-class weapon specialist feats all give you a constant effect for a given weapon, like net powers slowing the target, or being able to use the spiked chain as a double weapon. The nice thing is that the only pre-req for the feat powers is that you be proficient with the weapon. So if, for example, you wanted your Psion to have a little bit of melee ability, you could buy one of these feats. It could be useful for an arcane character who is looking to hide their arcane abilities more easily. So if they're in a situation where using arcane powers would be bad, they aren't helpless.
#5 FlashbackJon Aug 27, 2010 17:28:05	I'm not sure they justify the multiclass restriction, at all. They have already removed the multiclass restriction for all but the entry level feat. After all shouldn't a feat provide some extra benefit now admittedly these are superior weapons, but in the net for example as written without "slowing" proficiency benfit of taking Net Training [Multiclass Net] is actually worse than a Simple Javalin. To warrant being superior it should really have slowing as a feature of the weapon not require a special feat. In fact because it requires a special feat the Arena Fighter from Dark Sun actually misses out, and his class ability is less useful. The multiclass feat Net Training provides a slow UtEoyNT on every attack on top of granting a Superior Weapon Proficiency, and allows access to power-swap feats. This absolutely justifies using up your multiclass slot, and I'd argue that the slow effect is worth a feat by itself, considering no other slow-granting feat is so unconditional. If the multiclass restriction were removed, the feat would have to do substantially less. If you're claiming that a Net, by default, isn't worth the feat for Superior Weapon Proficiency, that's another story entirely. But the net is definitely NOT worse than a javelin. It is arguably worse than the throwing hammer or handaxe though. Except, of course, that it has this feat support. The weapon should NOT have the slow as an inherent feature though, even when superior.
#6 DMaple Aug 27, 2010 18:11:15	The multiclass feat Net Training provides a slow UtEoyNT on every attack on top of granting a Superior Weapon Proficiency, and allows access to power-swap feats. The only extra the Net Training feat gives is the slow effect. You don't need Net Training to get access to the power-swap feats because the exact same feats without the multiclass restriction are now available in Dark Sun Campaign setting. The thing is a Net without the slow ability isn't worth a Weapon Proficiency feat on it's own. Without the slow ability it is technicially comparable to a Javalin which is a simple weapon. So either the Net should be dropped down to being a martial or simple weapon, or the slow ability should be added for anyone that is proficient with it, and the Net Training feat removed. This absolutely justifies using up your multiclass slot, and I'd argue that the slow effect is worth a feat by itself, considering no other slow-granting feat is so unconditional. If the multiclass restriction were removed, the feat would have to do substantially less. I agree to some degree the slow ability perhaps should be a feat on it's own. Then none Arena fighters would have to spend a feat to become proficient and then another to slow people. Where as Arena fighters could choose it as one of their weapons and then just spend a feat, rather than a feat and multiclass options. This way no one needs to give up multiclassing, but it costs more for none Arena Fighters to make the best of it, but about the same for Arena Fighters who's theme suits this weapon. If you're claiming that a Net, by default, isn't worth the feat for Superior Weapon Proficiency, that's another story entirely. That's exactly what I'm claiming, which is unfortunately what it costs for an Arena Fighter (perhaps the most archetypial class to use it). But the net is definitely NOT worse than a javelin. It is definiately comparable. Without the slowing ability it does the same damage, has the same proficiency bonus and less range, the only advantage it has is being off-hand. It is arguably worse than the throwing hammer or handaxe though. Except, of course, that it has this feat support. Only for just the slow ability and nothing else. It cost not only a feat, but a your option to Multiclass. The weapon should NOT have the slow as an inherent feature though, even when superior. Why not? For those proficient in it's use. People that aren't Arena Fighters want to use it spend the feat and get Net Training and gain not only proficiency but the slow ability anyway. The only class to benefit from it would be the Arena Fighters, who would actually get a benifit from there class ability to use weapons that suit their theme.