One problem I can see is that Essentials hasn't encompassed psionics (yet). Any other issues you can see?
The lack of a divine power source would limit your leader and defender options significantly if it were essentials only. You're also missing out on some of the new builds presented in DS (Arena fighter, Sorcerer-King pact warlock, et al.) if you went essentials only.
Also of note is that without dailies and daily utilities there is a lotless fear of going that extra day or 2 without an extended rest. With A lot essentials only you're still at 100% of your offense all the time, meaning as long as you have surges and survival days you can just keep trucking- not nearly as scary if you ask me.
Oh, and I dislike essentials in general. I can't recommend them at all but especially not in DS.
I guess there's a little disconnect with the new class builds (Arena Fighter, Animist Shaman, etc)... but the problem is on the Essentials end, not Dark Sun. Plus, you can have Essentials characters playing with 4E characters.
Just curious... but I was led to believe some of the above was possible.
DS + no leader? Have fun.
There's also nothing wrong with going mostly essentials (minus the divine classes, drow and half-orc) and adding in a few other elements like the psionic classes (or at least the psion), maybe the shaman and original warlock classes too, and the goliath (half-giant) race.
If you're running Essentials only: HotFK only has the Warpriest, but you can spin that as elemental rather than divine (a la 2e). HotFL does have a leader-type Sentinel Druid (which is awfully Shaman-like, to be honest), and that should be fine.
IMO, I would mix in the non-Essentials psionic classes as well, both to add some other leader archetypes and because psionic characters are so key to the setting.
A few classes (e.g. some but not all of the Essential fighty classes, and the various Psionic classes as well) have quirkier power progressions, so you might not be able to swap in some of the Theme powers without some houseruling it. Any character should be able to take on the Level 1 Theme Power, though.
Thats what i have been worried about. I want to run a Essentials Assassion with a Athasian Minstrel theme but i see no way what so ever to get any of the powers from the theme other than the feature power and the utility powers
Well, getting the feature power and utility powers isn't too bad: you can look at it the rest as just extra options (and if your class isn't interested in Encounter powers at a given level, then you can ignore those options).
There are two feats from PHB3 that set a bit of a precedent with multiclassing: Psionic Conventionalist and Psionic Dabbler. Shorter version: use a feat to swap an existing power for a theme encounter power as per roughly these rules. I would suggest the DM simply allow bartering class features for theme powers on a case-by-case basis, without charging a feat tax.
I wouldn't be surprised if the future themes supplement (bring theme powers to core D&D) will have more explicit rules for taking on theme powers if your class doesn't have appropriately swappable elements.
Could you run a purely 'essentials only' characters with Dark Suns? (Waiting for Nov 16 to see how this would work on the Character Builder).
One problem I can see is that Essentials hasn't encompassed psionics (yet). Any other issues you can see?
Yes , but a Yes+But answer is better.
You can run an Esssentials in the Dark Sun setting, even without the Dark Sun book(s).
But this is a bad idea.
Essentials + the Dark Sun book = some of the flavor and some of the crunch.
Essentials + PHB3 = very minor conversion issues / it's intended to crossover with no problem.
Ess + PHB3 + Dark Sun = now we're getting some where.
This isn't (too) much different that 4e "Core" + PHB3 + Dark Sun.
DMG2 provides the best details, if you want to use the No Magic Items rules.
But Dark Sun has a shorty version of it.
etc ...
Could you run a purely 'essentials only' characters with Dark Suns? (Waiting for Nov 16 to see how this would work on the Character Builder).
One problem I can see is that Essentials hasn't encompassed psionics (yet). Any other issues you can see?
Due to the fact that the divine classes would be out, you'd be limited to the knight for a defender class and the sentinel druid as your only choice for a leader. Essentials characters could take themes, but many of them won't get as much use out of them as pre-E builds.
I'd say it's more realisitic to mix the allowable essentials classes in as options.
Yes , but a Yes+But answer is better.
You can run an Esssentials in the Dark Sun setting, even without the Dark Sun book(s).
But this is a bad idea.
Essentials + the Dark Sun book = some of the flavor and some of the crunch.
Essentials + PHB3 = very minor conversion issues / it's intended to crossover with no problem.
Ess + PHB3 + Dark Sun = now we're getting some where.
This isn't (too) much different that 4e "Core" + PHB3 + Dark Sun.
DMG2 provides the best details, if you want to use the No Magic Items rules.
But Dark Sun has a shorty version of it.
etc ...
I don't want to be the **** here, but doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of Essentials? Having to read 3 books, apply essentials 'errata'/'updates' to these guides, create one's own conversion rules, etc... just so that one could play a "for beginners" set of rules...?
Or am I getting it all wrong.
How about Monster conversions? I got the creature catalog for DS and Redbox, theres no reason why I cant make conversions for DS from the Red Box monsters, right? I'm starting my players off at lvl 1,are also new, and I might want to put them up against some DS-converted monsters to ween them in.
You can re-flavor as you like but when perfectly good examples exist (and do better and have rules already written and won't be subject to "ooops, didn't consider that"...) step up and run some real 4.0 DnD... allow your characters all the rules and let them play the game with the big boy rules.
If you do want to use the essentials monsters, just take a Dark Sun name, slap it on a similarly sized and keyworded Essentials creature (like Braxat -> Ogre, Red Dragon -> Fire Drake). Tah dah! Done.
by the dying light of tyr if we turn this forum into another sink for pro/anti-essentialswank i will resurrect kalak and order him to kill you all and then resurrect you as his unholy siltfell boneguardians and then kill you again because he's kalak and come on people seriously
Just like Kalak, it may never die... sadly. But if you're going to pull essentials only and then bemoan the lack of leaders and reflavor things from essentials to act like non-essentials things that already exist then someone is going to point that out.
You lose a ton of DS crunch if you go essentials, and if you reflavor essentials stuff to look and act like non-essentials stuff then why not just go pure 4e.
The mage could be tricky.
You lose a ton of DS crunch if you go essentials, and if you reflavor essentials stuff to look and act like non-essentials stuff then why not just go pure 4e.
Some people don't own all the 4e books. And if your going to do Dark Sun you have to use Players Handbook 3. But to get around that simple reskins of different classes can help.
You lose a ton of DS crunch if you go essentials, and if you reflavor essentials stuff to look and act like non-essentials stuff then why not just go pure 4e.
Some people don't own all the 4e books. And if your going to do Dark Sun you have to use Players Handbook 3. But to get around that simple reskins of different classes can help.
That's the best reason I've heard so far. No reason otherwise to do it. I suggest picking up the PHB3 anyway; it's a good source for a lot of fringe stuff and it's all solid.
That's the best reason I've heard so far. No reason otherwise to do it. I suggest picking up the PHB3 anyway; it's a good source for a lot of fringe stuff and it's all solid.
Yeah its my favorite game book by far, aside from DS:CS just cause of the Thri-kreen.
Side Topic about Player's Handbook 3:
Even though they shouldn't exist, the Shardminds are Overpowered for Darksun. They require no food or water and don't even sleep. BTW, anyone have a Shardmind Dark Sun conversion? I can't think of any reason why the weather would affect them, aside from storms eroding them. Also I don't think anything would want to eat them.
If one of my players finds them appealing I think the story will be they created when a powerful psionic dies. Each carries only a portion of their creators power. Most Shardminds are made of Obsidian.
Most Shardminds are made of Obsidian.
Nice. You could even flag the whole Living Gate thing, and instead link them as ultimately deriving from the planar rift to inner planes that spilled the obsidian forming the Obsidian Plains.
Not needing to eat, drink or sleep is a big deal in Athas, as you say. But it can be balanced. And it kinda works with what are essentially non-undead creatures that come from the Dead Lands. The main challenge I'd foresee in playing a Shardmind is the attention they'd get from the Sorcerer Kings, and their associates.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Yes , but a Yes+But answer is better.
You can run an Esssentials in the Dark Sun setting, even without the Dark Sun book(s).
But this is a bad idea.
Essentials + the Dark Sun book = some of the flavor and some of the crunch.
Essentials + PHB3 = very minor conversion issues / it's intended to crossover with no problem.
Ess + PHB3 + Dark Sun = now we're getting some where.
This isn't (too) much different that 4e "Core" + PHB3 + Dark Sun.
DMG2 provides the best details, if you want to use the No Magic Items rules.
But Dark Sun has a shorty version of it.
etc ...
I don't want to be the **** here, but doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of Essentials? Having to read 3 books, apply essentials 'errata'/'updates' to these guides, create one's own conversion rules, etc... just so that one could play a "for beginners" set of rules...?
Or am I getting it all wrong.
Essentials is for beginners, sure.
Dark Sun for beginners ? Really ?!
You don't wanna do that to the kiddies, do you ... (evil grin)
Until an absolute conversion is posted or pubished,
we're still in guess or muddle through, mode.
Essentials is for beginners, sure.
Dark Sun for beginners ? Really ?!
You don't wanna do that to the kiddies, do you ... (evil grin)
Until an absolute conversion is posted or pubished,
we're still in guess or muddle through, mode.
I did a Dark Sun beginners today, I didn't think they liked the idea that I bloodied two of their characters, before they could mine.
Maybe you could hand them a Raise Dead ritual scroll, at the start of the session.
And give them a hint that it is not a Dr. Orc-Suess special.
Anyways...
Dark Sun doesn't have to be 'deadly'. Harsh yes... not deadly. Being harsh doesn't mean your characters have to die. It can have some elements of heroism and fantasy. Raise Dead might not be appropriate, but a character that 'dies' might have some other ways to return to the land of the living: Revenants are very Dark Sun appropriate. Change the background story of Shardminds or Warforged and the races might be used as vesseals for minds whose bodies have passed.
...or you could always sell your souls to one of the Sorcerer Kings. They can do wonderfully exotic things, possibly even return somebody back from the Gray. Of course... you might not like the cost involved.
If you reasure your players that they will not have to retire their characters if they fall below zero, than they might enjoy Dark Sun better. Might be better to not tell them the consquences...
He's right: Anybody who plays Paranoia has cooties. And cooties are contagious. It's true. It's on wikipedia.
Anyways...
Dark Sun doesn't have to be 'deadly'. Harsh yes... not deadly. Being harsh doesn't mean your characters have to die. It can have some elements of heroism and fantasy. Raise Dead might not be appropriate, but a character that 'dies' might have some other ways to return to the land of the living: Revenants are very Dark Sun appropriate. Change the background story of Shardminds or Warforged and the races might be used as vesseals for minds whose bodies have passed.
...or you could always sell your souls to one of the Sorcerer Kings. They can do wonderfully exotic things, possibly even return somebody back from the Gray. Of course... you might not like the cost involved.
If you reasure your players that they will not have to retire their characters if they fall below zero, than they might enjoy Dark Sun better. Might be better to not tell them the consquences...
They dont know about death saving throws for 4e. Haha they think their going to die at 0. I don't like killing characters for real. But I do enjoy players knowning that its possible. With what happened last game I think they wouldn't have changed anything though.