I never played DS in 2nd Edition so maybe this is obvious to some of you. If anyone has insight into how this was handled in 2nd Edition and how it might be handled in 4th Edition I would be grateful.
Please stay on topic. I have ADD
The title is probably self-explanatory... just trying to understand how divine classes would work in DS based on the "...gods are dead or absent..." quote in the announcement interview.
I never played DS in 2nd Edition so maybe this is obvious to some of you. If anyone has insight into how this was handled in 2nd Edition and how it might be handled in 4th Edition I would be grateful.
Please stay on topic. I have ADD
In the old campaign setting the divine classes worshipped the elements or elemental spirits (Clerics and Druids) and their was Templar (who replaced Paladins) they worshipped the Sorcerer-Kings. The Elements (or elemental lords as they were called), Elemental Spirits (Spirits of the Land) and Sorcerer-Kings where able to grant access to priestly magic.
I assume it will be something similar in 4th ed.. Clerics and Invokers fit nicely into the old role of Elemental Clerics when you add Elemental damage to any power that does Radiant, and Paladins and Avengers fit as templars quite nicely.. just instead of Astral and Angelic influence reflavour the powers to Sorcerer-King influence.
The Clerics and Invokers could work as templars as well.. they just don't fit the them quite right in my opinion, same goes for Paladins and Avengers as Elemental Priests.
From what I remember of Darksun (2ed. incidentally), the clerics received their powers from one of the four elements (earth, air, fire, water.) According to the product spotlight, shamans and other primal characters on Athas draw on the forces of sun [fire], sand [earth], wind [air], and precious rain [water]. It's possible (and reasonable to presume) that the campaign setting will offer something akin to the domains presented in Divine Power, one for each of the four elements.
Yes it appears that instead of having the paraelemental clerics (Sand, Sun, Rain and Magma as well as clerics of the Air, Earth, Fire and Water) they will have those for the Primal power sources.. although i am curious about this, because as i mentioned in m earlier post.. Druids (and therefore the primal power source) worshipped the spirits of the land, which were pseudoelemtnal, but not.. paraelemental was a separate thing altogether..
Mechanically it works and its not even a big stretch to tweak the 2nd ed material into 4th ed power sources.
The title is probably self-explanatory... just trying to understand how divine classes would work in DS based on the "...gods are dead or absent..." quote in the announcement interview.
The same way they work in Eberron: by just working. Divine classes now gain their powers by virtue of their faith, not by virtue of an actual divine being sending positive waves to its followers. There's nothing to keep divine characters from being devoted to a particular mystical philosophy.
Otherwise, they work basically the same.
I always wanted to run a Templar in 2E Dark Sun, but the game wasn't friendly to their use as PCs (yeah, they had the class, but it was clearly designed for NPC bad guy use). If I remember correctly, they were even removed from the revised boxed set. I'm hoping the new setting will make it possible to run PC-templars.
Rename Avenger as a templar, change power source to elemental, multiclass as cleric maybe for powers like Flamestrike. One of the novels had a very cool scene where Pavek IIRC called on Hamanu to help him out. A pair of eyes appeared on the battlefield and boomed out "Granted" and flamestriked all the enemies. Classic scene IMHO.
The same way they work in Eberron: by just working. Divine classes now gain their powers by virtue of their faith, not by virtue of an actual divine being sending positive waves to its followers. There's nothing to keep divine characters from being devoted to a particular mystical philosophy.
Which is how I can justify a Quest for Glory style Paladin that follows the philosophies espoused by Bahamut without being a Bahamut worshipper. :D
The title is probably self-explanatory... just trying to understand how divine classes would work in DS based on the "...gods are dead or absent..." quote in the announcement interview.
I never played DS in 2nd Edition so maybe this is obvious to some of you. If anyone has insight into how this was handled in 2nd Edition and how it might be handled in 4th Edition I would be grateful.
Please stay on topic. I have ADD
Well, from one of the old core books we discover that the Templars' power comes to them from the elements by way of the Sorcerer-kings. It would follow that all Clerical power comes from the elemental planes (now elemental chaos), even if redirected thru a Sorcerer-king. As Druids of the time were a subclass fo Clerics, it also follows that their powers would stem from the elemental planes as well.
Anyone remember if there were energy-draining undead? That would require a tenuous connection to the Negative "Material" Plane, which was folded into the Shadowfell.
Warforged work just fine in Points of Light (PoL) and Forgotten Realms (FR), despite being an Eberron-specific race. Bane is slightly different in Points of Light than in Forgotten Realms and doesn't even exist in Eberron.
Eberron has no specific gods, but divine classes work just fine there. It will probably not be much different in DarkSun.
And sometimes, just sometimes, in the process of bringing an old setting into a new ruleset, it is the setting that is updated.
Warforged work just fine in Points of Light (PoL) and Forgotten Realms (FR), despite being an Eberron-specific race. Bane is slightly different in Points of Light than in Forgotten Realms and doesn't even exist in Eberron.
Eberron has no specific gods, but divine classes work just fine there. It will probably not be much different in DarkSun.
And in other news some claim if you wave your hands hard enough you can fly.
Sorry, but clerics will need a source otherwise it doesn't make any metaphysical sense. DM's need to know the source of powers because their adventures in the later tiers can build around these sources. Don't think it matters the source of your power? Talk to a dark pact warlock. Mine in the later tiers are in fear of the pact being called due or preparing for it.
DM's need to know the source of powers because their adventures in the later tiers can build around these sources.
Actually, the DM doesn't need to know. The DM might want to know, but this knowledge is by no means mandatory.
This being said, what's the problem with divine characters having power by virtue of their faith? Why couldn't their belief in their virtues and perspective on existence be so strong that it could be made manifest through divine powers?
Actually, the DM doesn't need to know. The DM might want to know, but this knowledge is by no means mandatory.
This being said, what's the problem with divine characters having power by virtue of their faith? Why couldn't their belief in their virtues and perspective on existence be so strong that it could be made manifest through divine powers?
Clerics themselves are gods? Divine is a word. It has a meaning. If the source is oneself then that makes all clerics divine and therefore gods.
Clerics themselves are gods? Divine is a word. It has a meaning. If the source is oneself then that makes all clerics divine and therefore gods.
No, it doesn't. In Eberron, the source of power is faith itself. While clerics still worship gods, there is no definitive proof in that setting that the gods are real. This especially becomes true when there are clerics who gain power without worshipping a god, but from having faith in something else; the Lord of Blades is a very influential warforged who even has clerics that can channel divine power solely from the faith and conviction they have for his cause... yet he is pretty much mortal (well, as mortal as a warforged can get).
No, it doesn't. In Eberron, the source of power is faith itself. While clerics still worship gods, there is no definitive proof in that setting that the gods are real. This especially becomes true when there are clerics who gain power without worshipping a god, but from having faith in something else; the Lord of Blades is a very influential warforged who even has clerics that can channel divine power solely from the faith and conviction they have for his cause... yet he is pretty much mortal (well, as mortal as a warforged can get).
Interesting argument. I'd like to see how that plays on on Athas where people don't have much faith in anything.
In 2e, Athas was generally cut off from the rest of the multiverse by the barrier plane known as the Gray. The sorcerer-king Dregoth, however, had an ancient artifact known as the Planar Mirror, which could breach the Gray and send him to any plane/world he wanted. Dregoth's primary goal is to ascend to actual godhood, so he wandered around the planes collecting knowledge on gods and divine powers. One of the sources he brought back to Athas was a fire giant cleric named Bracorr who he interrogated on the nature of divinity. While Bracorr's world of origin or his deity were never specified, Bracorr could still cast low-level spells even though he was cut off from his deity. As I understand it, the fact that he could do this was from some other 2e supplement (don't ask me which one, I'm remembering this was brought up in a thread here long, long ago).
Nobody else ever gained spells from faith alone. Anybody who claimed that gods were real was branded as insane by the general Athasian populace.
While Bracorr's world of origin or his deity were never specified, Bracorr could still cast low-level spells even though he was cut off from his deity. As I understand it, the fact that he could do this was from some other 2e supplement (don't ask me which one, I'm remembering this was brought up in a thread here long, long ago).
Nobody else ever gained spells from faith alone. Anybody who claimed that gods were real was branded as insane by the general Athasian populace.
I don't know about 2e, but I know that in 1e clerics would always have access to 1st thru 3rd level spells by virtue of faith and training. Thus in Shadowdale (the module) when the gods of Faerun were having problems because Ao had a mad on, clerics only had 1st thru 3rd level spells.
So it would make sense that Bracorr would still have his 1st thru 3rd level spells, even when in a sphere separated from his god(s).
Divine power source users will simply pray to Fire, Air, Earth & Water OR Sorceror-Kings. Every class will be available.
Avenger, Paladin (not LG now), Invoker and Cleric make excellent templars easily. PC are wanderer and work for their Sorcerer-King causes, no need for direct mission or contact. Make Templar feat maybe for city political power.
For Elements, make them add to Radiant, an elemental keyword of their worship: Acid (Water), Lightning (Air), Thunder (Earth) and Fire. They are crusader, mystic, guardian for their Element.
For the record, every Dark Sun product has stated explicitly that there are no gods on Athas - even when they introduced old religions, they made sure to mention that the religions were just that, belief systems without any evidence of divine power.
For the record, every Dark Sun product has stated explicitly that there are no gods on Athas - even when they introduced old religions, they made sure to mention that the religions were just that, belief systems without any evidence of divine power.
So, just like Eberron, then. There's no evidence of gods, but there are still divine characters running around.
So, just like Eberron, then. There's no evidence of gods, but there are still divine characters running around.
The difference is that in Dark Sun, unlike Eberron, the power of faith isn't strong enough to grant spells and all that. The elementals give more tangible benefits.
I sorta think Druids are going to work pretty much like before, Shamans will be a mix of Druid and Elemental Cleric, and all Divine characters will get their power from the Elementals (domains, faith) or Sorcerer Kings (faith, access to the Astral Sea). Paladins & Avengers make fine Templars DS style, imo.
I sorta expect either a Sorcerer King Pact or Elemental Pact, but not both, for Warlocks too.
Not sure if this is old news by now or not, but I was at the release announcement at Gen Con, and I asked the staff whether Dark Sun will have arcane and divine classes in it. The response, paraphrased, was:
"Arcane power users will continue to have a unique spin to them. Divine characters will be discouraged, but not outright prohibited. There is alot of story potential to being the only Paladin in Athas"
So, it seems that more likely then not there won't be much mechanics oriented around bringing Divine into Dark Sun. But if it isn't "outright prohibited" perhaps a mechanic here or there.
Elemental 'clerics' should be represented by Elemental Power Source classes, or by Primal characters.
The interview recently published, James Wyatt as much as said that Shamans are getting the 2e DS cleric role.
I sorta expect either a Sorcerer King Pact or Elemental Pact, but not both, for Warlocks too.
I'd see a Sorcerer-king pact, which would tie back to the Elemental planes without actually making a pact with the Elementals. I'm still curious about how defiling/preserving will affect warlocks, though, because their powers come from their patron as opposed to the usual mana source.
I fully expect the divine power source will exist without modification. Elemental 'clerics' should be represented by Elemental Power Source classes, or by Primal characters. Some from the Divine Power Source will worship the sorcerer-kings, and some will be from secretive pockets hoarding the last vestiges of divine might in the world. It won't be a world full of priests, but it will be an allowed PC option (though subject to DM approval).
Sounds good...only I personally don't fully expect it to happen just yet. Not including the Divine power source at all has it's own charm too, ya know...in that blasted, merciless Dark Sun kind of way. :D
When it comes to the sorcerer kings I can see them being their own pantheon where the divine characters who worship and gain power from them are considered templars. With that you can have several factions of templars each with a different feel and outlook. You also gain seven or so more religions from the sorcerer kings and possibly seven unique factions of templars that the divine classes can be a part of.
Of course you could have the divine classes just worshipping the sorcerer kings and the primal and elemental classes gaining power from the elements and taking the place of elemental clerics.
There will probably be some tweaking of damage types on divine powers. Maybe replace all radiant damage with the specific damage type you worship or have powers that do radiant damage do radiant AND specific element damage. I'm excited to see WotC's take on it though.
That's exactly what I don't want to see. A palette swap isn't just uninteresting, it's utterly cheesy and ridiculous.
Don't get me wrong. I would love to see the Elemental power source make its debut here and give us a whole new tool set to play with. I'm not sure with all the differences between Athas and Faerun or the core world or others, that WotC will have the space to devote to a new power source, new races, new classes, etc. The point I was trying to make was that it is possible to use the existing structure (divine power source) to accomplish the same (or at least similar) effect of an entirely new structure (elemental power source). I know its not as cool as getting a new power source, but mechanically it would work. Flavor-wise it could work as well with the caveat that characters draw or are granted their powers from elemental beings or somesuch. Athasian dwarves are regular dwarves with no hair. One small statement. One cool story effect. (I know all Athasian races are heartier than their core equivalents. Will that continue in 4E?)
The same way they work in Eberron: by just working. Divine classes now gain their powers by virtue of their faith, not by virtue of an actual divine being sending positive waves to its followers. There's nothing to keep divine characters from being devoted to a particular mystical philosophy.
This is not true. In Dark Sun, faith does not grant spells. Only the elements, spirits of nature, and sorcerer kings can do that.
I fully expect the divine power source will exist without modification. Elemental 'clerics' should be represented by Elemental Power Source classes, or by Primal characters. Some from the Divine Power Source will worship the sorcerer-kings, and some will be from secretive pockets hoarding the last vestiges of divine might in the world. It won't be a world full of priests, but it will be an allowed PC option (though subject to DM approval).
I fully expect you to be wrong. In 2e Dark Sun, they pretty much took the cleric class wholesale, and altered a couple features of some spells/granted some new spells. I fully expect (considering the fact that they stated that they want to keep things as close to the original boxed set as possible) that they will do something very similar. They will take the Divine Power source classes, and just say that in Dark Sun these classes can be Elemental power source classes or "Divine" power source classes. The elemental versions pray to the elements. The Divine versions pray to the sorcerer kings. They will probably also say that elemental power source versions should choose one of the elements, and depending on which element they choose, their "radiant" keryword powers will have their radiant type damage replaced with a different type of damage/a different keyword. Rules to this effect are very easy to write, and will VERY closely resemble how the original Dark Sun boxed set handled the situation.
The same way they work in Eberron: by just working. Divine classes now gain their powers by virtue of their faith, not by virtue of an actual divine being sending positive waves to its followers. There's nothing to keep divine characters from being devoted to a particular mystical philosophy.
In terms of D&D in general I certainly agree with your last sentence. (I don't think it requires the preceding sentence, but that's just mho. :D) However, in DS or any particular campaign it seems quite plausible for there to be a restriction on the power source itself. If the exception to the rule is that in DS only divine classes who worship a sorcerer-king can function, that seems legit to me.
I fully expect you to be wrong. In 2e Dark Sun, they pretty much took the cleric class wholesale, and altered a couple features of some spells/granted some new spells. I fully expect (considering the fact that they stated that they want to keep things as close to the original boxed set as possible) that they will do something very similar. They will take the Divine Power source classes, and just say that in Dark Sun these classes can be Elemental power source classes or "Divine" power source classes. The elemental versions pray to the elements. The Divine versions pray to the sorcerer kings. They will probably also say that elemental power source versions should choose one of the elements, and depending on which element they choose, their "radiant" keryword powers will have their radiant type damage replaced with a different type of damage/a different keyword. Rules to this effect are very easy to write, and will VERY closely resemble how the original Dark Sun boxed set handled the situation.
In previous editions they tweaked the cleric b/c the game needed to have a "cleric" of some sort. In 4e, the more generalized Leader role is front and center. If there are plenty of other Leaders available, why would they need to tweak the cleric class at all? Shamans were mentioned in the announcement, and shamans are leaders...with some elementaly powers to boot. Core shamans propitiate primal spirits and often venerate deities of nature, whereas Athasian shamans could propitiate primal spirits and venerate the elements & elementals. Voila! 2e-esque "elemental clerics."
If the Divine power source and its classes are included in DS at all, I think they'll be worked in as Stogoe mentions. Whether or not they will be worked in is the more significant question in my mind.
In previous editions they tweaked the cleric b/c the game needed to have a "cleric" of some sort. In 4e, the more generalized Leader role is front and center. If there are plenty of other Leaders available, why would they need to tweak the cleric class at all? Shamans were mentioned in the announcement, and shamans are leaders...with some elementaly powers to boot. Core shamans propitiate primal spirits and often venerate deities of nature, whereas Athasian shamans could propitiate primal spirits and venerate the elements & elementals. Voila! 2e-esque "elemental clerics."
Because a communal relationship with the elemental spirits and the worship of primordial elements is not the same thing, not in 2e Dark Sun, not now. Classes like the Shaman already have a place in Dark Sun. Primal Power source classes fill the roles that the Druid filled in 2e Dark Sun. This is not the same narrative role that the elemental clerics filled. Since they are trying to keep things as close to the 1st boxed set, I expect them to include both narrative elements. I fully expect to see elemental clerics.
If the Divine power source and its classes are included in DS at all, I think they'll be worked in as Stogoe mentions. Whether or not they will be worked in is the more significant question in my mind.
I don't agree. What Stogoe mentions doesn't feel like Dark Sun. Not one bit. I fully expect them to take the much more logical, and simple (because they won't have to create a brand new elemental class), approach of having the cleric class worship elemental domains in Dark Sun.
Because the elemental spirits and the worship of the primordial elements is not the same thing, not in 2e Dark Sun, not now. Classes like the Shaman already have a place in Dark Sun. Primal Power source classes fill the roles that the Druid filled in 2e Dark Sun. This is not the same narrative role that the elemental clerics filled. Since they are trying to keep things as close to the 1st boxed set, I expect them to include both narrative elements. I fully expect to see elemental clerics.
I don't agree. What Stogoe mentions doesn't feel like Dark Sun. Not one bit. I fully expect them to take the much more logical, and simple (because they won't have to create a brand new elemental class), approach of having the cleric class worship elemental domains in Dark Sun.
Okay. I'm still not sure personally what I'd prefer, but I think I at least understand where you're coming from now.
Thanks for answering!I don't agree. What Stogoe mentions doesn't feel like Dark Sun. Not one bit. I fully expect them to take the much more logical, and simple (because they won't have to create a brand new elemental class), approach of having the cleric class worship elemental domains in Dark Sun.
I agree with this. What Stogoe mentions worked great in Eberron because self-reliant faith is a core concept of the setting. In Athas though, things are different. Faithlessness is a central tenent of Dark Sun. Most Athasian's think the elemental clerics are a bit on the crazy side, and the templars get even less love. Hungry dogs don't pray for food, they chase it down and rip its throat out while snarling to keep their competition from stealing the meal.
Another important aspect of Dark Sun, is the kind of meta-theme of evolution. Psionics are everywhere, because the creatures needed an edge. Characters start out at 3rd level, becuase they were stronger and hardier than characters on other worlds. NPC's and PC's alike were given higher stats for the same reason. Athas is a brutal and harsh world to live on, and only the strong survive. I bring this up, because faith and divine power is the result of searching the cosmos and the soul for a higher power and asking it for help. Such weak-willed behavior is a quick path to starvation on Athas.
This is not true. In Dark Sun, faith does not grant spells. Only the elements, spirits of nature, and sorcerer kings can do that.
Actually...we don't know that for sure. The undead guardians of Under-Tyr kept their candles burning through faith alone, or so they said. It is likely faith alone that kept them animate as well. That indicates the possibility that faith alone can produce mystical effects.
I fully expect them to take the much more logical, and simple (because they won't have to create a brand new elemental class), approach of having the cleric class worship elemental domains in Dark Sun.
A far more simple approach would be to have the 4e Shaman take over the role of the 2e DS elemental cleric--as is implied already in the interview with James Wyatt.
What happens with the 4e cleric then? Instead of inventing another class for the templar, simply have the 4e cleric and avenger take over the 2e DS templar roles.
That's simple and logical. :D
Eberron has no specific gods, but divine classes work just fine there. It will probably not be much different in DarkSun.
Fine enough, if you don't mind going into handwaving.
The problem is, one of the central themes of Dark Sun as a setting has always been that your power has to come from somewhere.
A lot of setting sort of handwave away the source of arcane magic as well. Dark Sun made it explicit, and made it have an (the) impact on the setting. Divine magic comes from the elemental planes. Psionics comes from within yourself. Arcane magic is stolen from life around you. This is important for the themes of the setting -- as they have been.
Not saying that the theme of the setting won't get changed, but it wouldn't really be Dark Sun anymore
Here are some quick thoughts:
WoC have been clear in their desire to make all 4e material available to all settings with little or no changes. So the trick it to fit the structure and mechanics of 4e into the depth and fun of Dark Sun. So here goes . . .
Divine power comes from beings or philosophies that have their origin in the Astral Sea. The Astral Sea has been abandoned in some sense by the harsh cynicism resulting from the apocalypse caused by the defilers and dragons. Perhaps the Elemental Chaos is the new focus for the kind of faith and devotion that was once directed to the Astral? The inhabitants and feel of the Elemental Chaos certainly fit with the current state of Athas.
Primal Power = Spirits. No Brainer.
I'm not sure much else needs to be done for divine and primal power sources, other than some feats, paragon paths, and advice on tweaking flavor of existing classes and powers.
Too simple? Simple is good.
Not only could the Elemental Chaos have replaced the Astral Sea as the source of Divine Power, it could have literally absorbed the Astral Sea itself after the primordials defeated the deities.