Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Calion Apr 06, 2011 18:53:42	'Athas was once a world much like any other: Lush with trees and fields, with woodland elves, hairy dwarves, gnomes, heroes and wizards. Then defiling magic was introduced into the world, and the result is the ravaged desert that is Athas today.' This is not a direct quote, but the gist of what several Dark Sun sources over the years have said. In addition, there's the Timeline: After three eons of study, Rajaat emerges from the Pristine Tower to teach magic to the Rebirth races. He teaches preserving magic openly, and defiling magic in secret to those of "questionable" character.
#2 tentagil Apr 06, 2011 22:02:32	Preservering might have once been widly taught and known, but magic use of anykind it basically outlawed unless in the service of the SKs.  So anyone who knows magic who isn't an SK had to either learn it on their own, which is more likely to result in defiling, or were taught by someone else. One thing that makes defiling so much more powerful is how much easier it is.  Anyone with the talent can pull the likfe force in and use it to do something, it takes training and will power to only take what you need and put back any extra once your done as preserving does.  Now those who are trained as defilers will have more power because they have learned to more efficiently use all that raw power they can harness.  But anyone who jsut grabs power in a hurry automatically defiles.  Even in the original books mages who were taught as preservers were able to defile. And nothing says that defilers don't have the power to practice preserving magic, they just don't feel the need. You have to run your game the way you like.  But for me making them seperate classes defeats the point.  If the temptation of defiling is removed from the PCs, then they are nothing more then generic wizards of any other world.  Its that temptation of power and its consequences that give magic users on Athas their unique flavor.
#3 Calion Apr 07, 2011 15:24:56	Preservering might have once been widly taught and known, but magic use of anykind it basically outlawed unless in the service of the SKs. Absolutely. So anyone who knows magic who isn't an SK had to either learn it on their own, which is more likely to result in defiling, or were taught by someone else. It's unlikely, given the history, than anyone learns magic on their own. It took Rajaat 200 years to discover magic on his own, and it nearly killed him. One thing that makes defiling so much more powerful is how much easier it is.  Anyone with the talent can pull the likfe force in and use it to do something, it takes training and will power to only take what you need and put back any extra once your done as preserving does. That makes sense, yes. Now those who are trained as defilers will have more power because they have learned to more efficiently use all that raw power they can harness.  But anyone who jsut grabs power in a hurry automatically defiles.  Even in the original books mages who were taught as preservers were able to defile. And nothing says that defilers don't have the power to practice preserving magic, they just don't feel the need. I've explained above why I don't like this idea. I imagine the Green Age as more-or-less identical to the standard D&D world, wizards and all, until defiling magic was invented. Dark Sun has always been an environmental metaphor for me, of the potential dangers of unrestrained new technology. That doesn't work the same way if all wizards are really defilers, but some restrain themselves. You have to run your game the way you like.  But for me making them seperate classes defeats the point.  If the temptation of defiling is removed from the PCs, then they are nothing more then generic wizards of any other world. Yes, that would be true of preserver PCs. Its that temptation of power and its consequences that give magic users on Athas their unique flavor. And that's true of defilers. And of the decision to become a defiler.
#4 tentagil Apr 07, 2011 16:18:50	Now those who are trained as defilers will have more power because they have learned to more efficiently use all that raw power they can harness.  But anyone who jsut grabs power in a hurry automatically defiles.  Even in the original books mages who were taught as preservers were able to defile. And nothing says that defilers don't have the power to practice preserving magic, they just don't feel the need. I've explained above why I don't like this idea. I imagine the Green Age as more-or-less identical to the standard D&D world, wizards and all, until defiling magic was invented. Dark Sun has always been an environmental metaphor for me, of the potential dangers of unrestrained new technology. That doesn't work the same way if all wizards are really defilers, but some restrain themselves. I'm confused by your arguement.  Its like assuming all those Preserver mages only know how to use efficient and complex green technologies while the defilers are the only ones using simple fossil fuel burning tech.  Preserving is by its very nature harder to do then Defiling.  Teaching a man to burn a lump of coal to make a fire to cook over is alot easier then teaching him how to build a solar powered grill.  Rajitt took 200 years not because he was trying to learn to Defile, but because he was learning to Preserve.  He esentially invented magic on Athas, before him it didn't exist, he learned how to harness the power then had to learn how to do so without killing everything aroun him including himself. And the fact is that even in the green age magic on Athas worked different then other DnD realms because of the lack of Gods.  Most of the other realms magic was governed by at least one if not more gods who controlled its flow.  On Athas anyone with talent could pull the life out of something and mold it to their will.  The only difference between a Defiler and a Preserver is how much they pull and how efficient they are with it.
#5 devp Apr 08, 2011 2:00:33	I think magic works differently on Athas: it fundamentally requires the use of life energy (due to the weirdness introduced to the world when the primordials won). In which case, consider this: nobody needs to use arcane magic, but if you want access to the same power that other worlds take for granted, you seize that power. When you seize this power on Athas, and if you do so recklessly and with abandon, then you are defiling. This means that, as a magic-user, you can't simply declare your allegiance with one side of preserving/defiling and be done with it. You must instead show your commitment and restraint with each arcane act. The temptations of defiling are interesting to have available, and I find all of this to be a compelling environmental metaphor. It's not merely the dangers of unrestrained technology, but the dangers of what happens when we do not restrain ourselves. ... That said: I can also see why you'd want to keep Defilers and Preservers more separate for your game. IMO, choices are either balanced or not; if Defilers are more powerful, then they will be the more "optimal" choice. Will your players find the Defilers' infamy to be enough of a turn off, or will they all be Defiling? That depends on your group and how much pure game balance matters to them. You ultimately just need to balance among your players, really. I don't think that Defiling magic being reviled is enough of a limitation to get in a way of a Defiler PC. If a player portrays a savvy ex-defiler (who has a very high Bluff and only uses defiling magic out of sight of civilians), then this limitation does not come up and the player has a pure advantage. Here are some mechanical ideas you could mix/match. Suggestion 1: take all the arcane classes and divide their builds into "Preserver" or "Defiler" categories. So: - Defiler: War Wizard, Evocation Mage, Pyromancy Mage - Preserver: Control Wizard, Illusionist Wizard, Illusionist Mage Magic that does the heavier damage will tend towards defiling. Suggestion 2: Wizards are preserving magic. Warlocks are defiling magic. Divide the other arcane classes as you see fit. Suggestion 3: Defilers start the game a free Wondrous Boon (a magical "item" that doesn't take an item slot; listed in the Dark Sun 4E books). This is a bump in initial effectiveness, but a modest one. Suggestion 4: If the Defiler appropriately does the defiling after an extended rest (i.e. when they'd be "memorizing spells"), they get some modest bonus resource for the day, such as a second Action Point. Suggestion 5: If you don't mind Preservers/Defilers using the same magic powers, then amp up the capability of Arcane Defiling to give defilers more intense advantages. (Example: you could say the use of Arcane Defiling turns a failure into a success, rather than causing a reroll; but this is a severe power-up!)
#6 Calion Apr 08, 2011 12:20:10	I'm confused by your arguement.  Its like assuming all those Preserver mages only know how to use efficient and complex green technologies while the defilers are the only ones using simple fossil fuel burning tech.  Preserving is by its very nature harder to do then Defiling.  Teaching a man to burn a lump of coal to make a fire to cook over is alot easier then teaching him how to build a solar powered grill.  Rajitt took 200 years not because he was trying to learn to Defile, but because he was learning to Preserve.  He esentially invented magic on Athas, before him it didn't exist, he learned how to harness the power then had to learn how to do so without killing everything aroun him including himself. You don't seem to quite be getting my vision of Athas. In my view, what happened on Athas could happen on any world, if defiling magic were introduced. This requires that preservers be identical to wizards on any other world. Obviously this isn't canon, but it is how things seemed to be represented in DS1. And the fact is that even in the green age magic on Athas worked different then other DnD realms because of the lack of Gods. Most of the other realms magic was governed by at least one if not more gods who controlled its flow. No, not as far as I can tell. Divine magic doesn't exist on Athas for that reason, but I see no reason to say that arcane magic is affected by gods or the lack thereof. You can certainly argue that had the gods existed on Athas, they would not have allowed defiling magic to come into existence, and I would likely agree. But that's as far as I can see it going. On Athas anyone with talent could pull the life out of something and mold it to their will.  The only difference between a Defiler and a Preserver is how much they pull and how efficient they are with it. And that's the canon view. It's not my view, and it's not the view implied by DS1. My point is that I do not like this notion of magic for Dark Sun, and wish to change it for my campaign.
#7 chaosfang Apr 10, 2011 5:54:29	So what I want is a House Rule whereby Defilers and Preservers are split into two separate classes, as they were in DS1 and DS2. This is a difficult task, as the very nature of defiling magic implies that it is more powerful than preserving magic, and 4e is all about game balance. First, define "power", and "more powerful", like if the difference is "damage output", then have Defilers as Strikers and Artillery (anti-group high damage output), and Preservers as Controllers.  Otherwise, it'll be much more difficult to differentiate between the two, since you'll likely be shooting at random until you get the right thing. My initial thoughts on this are as follows (these are not requirements, just initial ideas): By default, defilers should be more powerful than preservers. But since defilers are nearly universally reviled, their effective power is lessened. A defiler working for a Sorcerer-King (i.e. a defiler with the Templar theme) would not have this disadvantage, and so I would probably make Defiler Templars NPC-only. Not sure how good this'll be, but in any case, the "canon" is that defilers are by default evil, and players are at worst unaligned.  This means that NPC defilers are more powerful at the get-go, while PCs get the default defiling power.  If you'll make this a class, you might want to consider a sort of hybrid between Sorcerer and Avenger, if not a subtype of Sorcerer that'd focus on simplicity.
#8 rauru Apr 10, 2011 9:35:20	And the fact is that even in the green age magic on Athas worked different then other DnD realms because of the lack of Gods. Most of the other realms magic was governed by at least one if not more gods who controlled its flow. No, not as far as I can tell. Divine magic doesn't exist on Athas for that reason, but I see no reason to say that arcane magic is affected by gods or the lack thereof. You can certainly argue that had the gods existed on Athas, they would not have allowed defiling magic to come into existence, and I would likely agree. But that's as far as I can see it going. Actually, it's said in the DS Campaign Setting guide  that when the gods left, the void left by the absence of divine magic is what gave birth to arcane. This is also the reason there is defiling: arcane magic is imperfect, since it shouldn't exist. So, yes, arcane magic IS affected by the absence of the gods.
#9 Calion Apr 10, 2011 13:27:31	And the fact is that even in the green age magic on Athas worked different then other DnD realms because of the lack of Gods. Most of the other realms magic was governed by at least one if not more gods who controlled its flow. No, not as far as I can tell. Divine magic doesn't exist on Athas for that reason, but I see no reason to say that arcane magic is affected by gods or the lack thereof. You can certainly argue that had the gods existed on Athas, they would not have allowed defiling magic to come into existence, and I would likely agree. But that's as far as I can see it going. Actually, it's said in the DS Campaign Setting guide  that when the gods left, the void left by the absence of divine magic is what gave birth to arcane. This is also the reason there is defiling: arcane magic is imperfect, since it shouldn't exist. So, yes, arcane magic IS affected by the absence of the gods. Okay, but that's all kind of revisionist, completely ignoring Rajaat and the DS2 Timeline. Sure, we can throw out everything about Dark Sun and start over, and clearly DS4 has done that. But I have a hard time considering that canon. And it doesn't explain how, on other worlds, divine and arcane magic exist side-by-side.
#10 Calion Apr 11, 2011 20:37:19	First, define "power", and "more powerful", like if the difference is "damage output", then have Defilers as Strikers and Artillery (anti-group high damage output), and Preservers as Controllers.  Otherwise, it'll be much more difficult to differentiate between the two, since you'll likely be shooting at random until you get the right thing. It means 'more powerful.' The specific way it's more powerful is never quite specified. It could be higher damage, greater chance to hit, higher-level spells, whatever works best mechanically. Not sure how good this'll be, but in any case, the "canon" is that defilers are by default evil, and players are at worst unaligned.  This means that NPC defilers are more powerful at the get-go, while PCs get the default defiling power.  If you'll make this a class, you might want to consider a sort of hybrid between Sorcerer and Avenger, if not a subtype of Sorcerer that'd focus on simplicity. I have no problem with evil PCs. In fact, I like having one or two to throw some chaos into the mix. I'll take a look at Avenger. Not sure what book it's in, though...
#11 devp Apr 11, 2011 22:52:51	There are various bits of canon/ephemera that you can pick out for your game, but let's talk about how to adapt to the core issue: making defilers more powerful from preservers in a meaningful way. (I didn't know how much you wanted the actual class / powers to be different between preservers and defilers, or whether one simply feels more amped up.) What do you think of the various suggestions/options out there for powering up defilers? And, do you think defilers must be a distinct class / have separate powers from preservers, or is that basically an option on wizards and sorcerers? You had concerns about 4e and balance. I think the most important think about balance is that no players feel entirely overshadowed by another, generally. (The preserver and the gladiator may look in awe as the defiling goes on, but they all should have a role to play in an encounter.) There is also the opinion that you should balance benefits at the same level. That is: balance mechanical benefits with mechanical penalties, strategic benefits with strategic penalties, and RP/fiction benefits with RP/fiction penalties. If you have a hard time thinking about ways to add mechanical power in a reasonable way, perhaps you want to move the benefit to another level.
#12 devp Apr 11, 2011 22:57:59	A suggested defiler benefit: they can simply create defiled terrain (Black Ash) anywhere, at will, as a side effect of any spell. This might be mainly an RP benefit: it's something they can do, and perhaps can be used in negotiations (as a show of force or to threaten an oasis village), but isn't much of an attack power on its own. This might have modest tactical applications as well. If an encounter has undesired natural features (e.g. scrub, plants), defiling can take care of that rather simply. It's rather conditional however.
#13 mouthymerc Apr 12, 2011 7:55:44	Sorcerer-King pact Warlocks are not defilers; they get their power from the S-Ks, not the land. They get their ability to cast magic from the sorcerer-kings, not the energy, which they draw from their surroundings as do other arcane classes.  This is one of the best parts, for me, in the new Dark Sun.  I always thought templars sounded more arcane than divine back in 2E and the arcane warlock pact works very well in my mind.
#14 chaosfang Apr 13, 2011 7:30:19	It means 'more powerful.' The specific way it's more powerful is never quite specified. It could be higher damage, greater chance to hit, higher-level spells, whatever works best mechanically. Except all of them *can* define "more powerful in the mechanical aspect.  In fact, I think even the developers had difficulty deciding what's best in this particular case, so they decided that the best mechanical benefit would be: have the player choose, between rerolling an attack, or rerolling damage (both of which are significant improvements in the mechanical aspect, and thus thematically more "powerful"). I have no problem with evil PCs. In fact, I like having one or two to throw some chaos into the mix. I'll take a look at Avenger. Not sure what book it's in, though... Player's Handbook 2.  Divine Striker, focusing on accuracy and defense.  Secondary Defender/Leader, depending on what class features you picked.  I think that's kind of my point. Mechanics should enable story, not hinder it. Still, I'd really like some sort of small mechanical benefit to offset the fact that defilers defile with every spell. The question I have in mind is: can they defile every spell, or they have to defile every spell?  If it's simply "they can defile every spell", then the mechanics as is would be fine: When you use any arcane power, you can choose to defile, destroying mundane plant life within at least 1 square of you. When you use a daily arcane attack power, the damage to the world extends out a number of squares equal to half the level of the power you use. This destruction does not normally affect creatures or terrain, though defiled squares might become defiled terrain (described in the Dark Sun Creature Catalog) at the Dungeon Master's discretion. The question then would be: what are the actual mechanical effects of defiling? In 4E, there are actually 5 effects of defiling (4 terrain-based, 1 power-modifying).  If I seriously wanted a mechanical benefit for constant defiling, then I'd probably do it this way: Each time I use a defiled arcane power, I turn nearby squares of vegitation first to Ash Fields, then after five or so defiles into Dead Magic terrain Each time I reduce an opponent to 0 hit points with a defiled arcane power, I turn the square into Black Sand. Each time I hit an opponent with a defiled arcane power, the square he occupies, as well as adjacent squares, turns into Sickening Heat terrain until the end of his turn (this in particular would add a controller effect to even at-will attacks, as Sickening Heat causes the weakened condition that lasts for 2 rounds).
#15 Warrant Apr 13, 2011 22:37:02	I really really really wish that Defilers and Preservers were a different class. And I wish defilers were much more unbalanced to play for two reasons. 1. Defilers ARE more powerful than preservers, and they ARE a different type of wizard. Sure, anyone can defile, but the line between the two is so stark that it establishes itself as a different class IMO 2. Being more unbalanced and powerful is balanced in game by being a bigger target if you defile. You will be hunted by the SK's and the Veiled alliance (unless you are employed by SK) and you have a terrible time trying to hide your magic. I think the biggest drawback to 4e Dark Sun IMO was not delineating the two into two seperate classes. That being said, the DS reboot more than made up for it.
#16 chaosfang Apr 14, 2011 6:57:50	I really really really wish that Defilers and Preservers were a different class. And I wish defilers were much more unbalanced to play for two reasons. 1. Defilers ARE more powerful than preservers, and they ARE a different type of wizard. Sure, anyone can defile, but the line between the two is so stark that it establishes itself as a different class IMO 2. Being more unbalanced and powerful is balanced in game by being a bigger target if you defile. You will be hunted by the SK's and the Veiled alliance (unless you are employed by SK) and you have a terrible time trying to hide your magic. I think the biggest drawback to 4e Dark Sun IMO was not delineating the two into two seperate classes. That being said, the DS reboot more than made up for it.      1. Please explain how defilers are more powerful than preservers, and how they are "a different type of wizard."  Given how 4E has at least 5 Arcane classes (Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Artificer, and Swordmage [not counting essentials subtypes, multiclass, etc.]) -- note that in 4E the Wizard and the Sorcerer not only have different class features but also have different powers altogether, making them far different to each other compared to previous editions, where the Wizard was more versatile, while the Sorcerer could spam powers more often -- and how broadly "power" can be defined, this has to be clarified. Personally I like the 4E Dark Sun take on arcane defiling, since you can actually see the development of your character as a defiler.  For instance: you start out as a Wizard defiler (Tome of Binding).  In addition to using arcane defiling with daily powers and defiling at-wills and encounter powers each and every time (with terrain-modifying benefits, if the DM allows it), you can get: * Defiling Action (lets you use arcane defiling with encounter/at-will powers when you spend an action point to use them) * Theft of Courage (amplify daily powers to inflict -2 penalty to all defenses (save ends)) * Defiling Adept (paragon tier crit-range-increasing feat that scales, which ought to be deadly when combined with a superior implement that has Enhanced Crit property) * Victim's Defilement (paragon tier feat that adds damage) * Arcane Leeh (epic tier feat that rejuvinates you as you defile) So, putting it all together... here is a possible feat combination (LFR-legal, level 11): 1: Superior Implement Training (Dragontooth Wand) 2: Wand Expertise 4: Dual Implement Spellcaster 6: Defiling Action 8: Implement Focus (Wand) 10: Destructive Wizardry 11: Victim's Defilement With a Magic Dragontooth Wand +3, 18 starting Int after racial bonuses, 14 starting CON after racial bonuses, and a Magic Tome +2, that's easily an encounter-long + 16 5 Int mod +3 enhancement +5 half level +2 wand expertise +1 superior implement bonus
#17 Warrant Apr 14, 2011 19:05:40	I am probably still kind-of 2e old school, but in my Dark Sun world there aren't any of those arcane spellcasters. There are Defilers and Preservers. Also, in my view of Dark Sun, defiling is an inherently evil act; one could not be a defiler without choosing an evil alignment. I think story based limitations on power is something that is sometimes underutilized by DM's, but then again I DM from more a of a simulationist bent, so I think about what WOULD happen if you were caught defiling. That being said, I would heartily endorse someone playing a defiler in the spirit of the class. It would be a different adventure, and would probably be somewhat more deadly and have an evil cast to it, but hey, maybe it would lead to "Bob the Sorcerer King" replacing one of the evil current rulers. I keep my Dark Sun world extremely cut-off from much of core 4e (races, monsters etc) just to keep it unique -- in that way I guess I adopt a more 2e view of things. Defilers and Preservers as DS specific classes in lieu of the other Arcane magic users is just my preference.
#18 Bera Apr 15, 2011 22:20:30	All of the "let's make defiling more powerful" houserule threads here end up trying to tackle this issue a bit, and I think it all boils down to your group and the story you want to tell. If you think Defiling magic needs to mechanically outshine everything else in the game, its easy to give all defilers a re-roll on all arcane attack or damage rolls and require the growing circle of black ash under them whenever they use a power. No ally-harming damage required. Simple and effective. Augment it with a free ritual caster feat and some free rituals as you please. That is extremely limiting to PCs and most players are likely to opt for hybrid characters so they can have some possibility of subtly so they can survive the horrible social ramifications of their defiling magic (which I hope you enforce). Defilers who wish to survive, then, are liable to go with a hybrid or multiclass option so they have a few big guns but also some subtle powers. If you want to tell a story with defiler PCs (A templar and his slaves perhaps) that's all well and good. Most DS games by default, however, assume heroic PCs. This is D&D, right? So temptation to defile as a preserver actually tells a very nice story, rather than just assuming prevers can't/won't do it ever. I myself use a combination of defiling temptation which, IMHO, is appropriate to a preserver-centric game: 1) terrain powers which augment defiling, 2) special riders on rituals which make them more powerful if the player defiles, and 3) a defiling addiction disease which makes arcane powers more potent but also requires you to defile more. The real question is, do you want a distinct preserver class, or do you want people to fall into the trap of defiling and then make escape difficult? I don't think that preservers should ever be unable to defile. I prefer defiling as a temptation and addiction, so there's no need to distinct classes.
#19 chaosfang Apr 18, 2011 19:46:25	I am probably still kind-of 2e old school, but in my Dark Sun world there aren't any of those arcane spellcasters. There are Defilers and Preservers. Also, in my view of Dark Sun, defiling is an inherently evil act; one could not be a defiler without choosing an evil alignment. Simple solution: All arcane classes are Arcane Spellcasters with different schools of expertise in the arts, and there are only two types of Arcane Spellcasters: those who Defile, and those who Preserve.  Those who defile are Defilers, and those who preserve are Preservers.  If arcane magic is taught, then every arcane spellcaster would know that regardless of technique, arcane magic is empowered by life force.  Level 1 characters would have only rudimentary knowledge on how to abuse it (the beginnings of a defiler), and as they progress, they can either shun its use and become a Master Preserver in the long run, or empower themselves with defiling each and every time, and become a Master Defiler in the long run. If defiling is an inherently evil act, then those who are unaligned** to chaotic evil would have no penalties for using it, while those who are good and lawful good would suffer penalties in both story and alignment; perhaps as a warning you'd have them Distracted (-2 to attack rolls) until their next short rest for the first time (explaining that defiling is clearly against their character's morals), then Disturbed (-5 to attack rolls) until their next extended rest for the second time [although for Lawful Good characters the first time they use it they could be Disturbed the first time they defile, with change alignment the next], then finally they change from Good to Unaligned or even Evil/Chaotic Evil, wherein they lose the penalties from Distracted/Disturbed, but instead gain the ire of several communities and a large story shift would occur. There.  Mechanics and fluff solved, as far as I can tell. I think story based limitations on power is something that is sometimes underutilized by DM's, but then again I DM from more a of a simulationist bent, so I think about what WOULD happen if you were caught defiling. That being said, I would heartily endorse someone playing a defiler in the spirit of the class. It would be a different adventure, and would probably be somewhat more deadly and have an evil cast to it, but hey, maybe it would lead to "Bob the Sorcerer King" replacing one of the evil current rulers. Story-based limitations should be that: story-based limitations.  Just because the word "Fighter" is on a class, as long as their character's actions are within the precepts of their power source (in this case, the Martial power source, meaning physique and skill), then Joe the Plumber Thief could easily use the Fighter template. If in your Dark Sun game there are only two Arcane Spellcasters, then there are only two Arcane Spellcasters... but you don't need to create a pair of homebrew classes to mechanically portray these two Arcane Spellcasters, just tell the players that no matter if they are a Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock, Swordmage, etc., they are simply either a Defiler or a Preserver, with focus to different types of magic, even though they're all arcane magic. I keep my Dark Sun world extremely cut-off from much of core 4e (races, monsters etc) just to keep it unique -- in that way I guess I adopt a more 2e view of things. Defilers and Preservers as DS specific classes in lieu of the other Arcane magic users is just my preference.      In other words, you'd rather have a Dark Sun 2E with some 4E mechanics to aid you, am I correct?  Because frankly, in 4E, fluff is all the rage, for instance: you can knock a sentient Cloudkill prone, since prone is a mechanic that could have various interpretations on how it's done, as long as the mechanical benefits are -- you need a move action to "stand" from "prone", you can "crawl" while "prone", you have -2 penalty to attacks while "prone", and you grant combat advantage while "prone"; In this case, a Fighter could have flourished his blade in such a way that, at least for a moment, it became easier to harm the sentient spell and it became more difficult for the said creature to move around and harm others (even though mechanically it's Knockdown Assault, resulting in the sentient Cloudkill being knocked prone). In a similar vein, a preserver/defiler by any name is still a preserver/defiler, so regardless if we're talking about a manipulative caster (Wizard/Warlock/Ensnaring Swordmage), a destructive caster (Artificer/Warlock/Sorcerer/Assault Swordmage), or even a supportive caster (Wizard/Artificer/Shielding Swordmage), they're still a caster who either chooses to preserve, or chooses to defile.  Whatever the story implications or even alignment implications of defiling are, they ought to affect other things -- item prices being jacked up to 20% or even 200% (if they can buy stuff at all), being thrown out of the city and chased by Templars and Veiled Alliance alike, etc. -- but the mechanical implications, at least for me, are better off untouched. The real question is, do you want a distinct preserver class, or do you want people to fall into the trap of defiling and then make escape difficult? I don't think that preservers should ever be unable to defile. I prefer defiling as a temptation and addiction, so there's no need to distinct classes. This. ** Unaligned essentially means that the creature in question doesn't care about morality issues, but at the same time doesn't actively look to harm others, so if he thinks that defiling for the betterment of the group is alright, then his morals don't change and neither does his alignment.
#20 thanerhogar Apr 20, 2011 12:09:38	Chaosfang, I'm getting from your post that you're seeing defiling not only as an inherently Evil act, but an inherently Chaotic one, and that confuses me.  I mean yes, defiling causes the literal breakdown of the organized molecular (or whatever) structure of the world, so I suppose in the sense of "directly promoting chaos" it's a chaotic act, but that's not normally how I see the Law/Chaos axis used in D&D. (Note: My group still uses 3e alignments in our 4e games since they don't really affect gameplay at all anymore and we, like just about everyone else in the world, find them to be more descriptive, so I'll be discussing 3e alignment on the template of 4e DS since it's the only one I have any experience with.  If that totally invalidates my point for some reason, just let me know.) Defiling is clearly Evil in that it causes permanent damage to the world to fulfill one's short-term goals, but I see, for instance a Lawful Evil character being equally as likely to defile as a Chaotic Evil one.  He might plan it better and have a better understanding (or just actually give a rat's ass) of whether/how his defiling might endanger his long term goals, but he certainly wouldn't hesitate to do it.  Conversely, I would imagine a Lawful Good character defiling in about the same situations as a Chaotic Good character might.  Of course, a CG character might be a little more prone to such behavior in a few cases.  While social convention might not factor into his decision to defile at a critical moment, the social convention in this case isn't arbitrary or oppressive, it's based entirely on the fact that every time someone defiles, Athas gets slightly less habitable, so it comes down to morality regardless.  The main argument I could see is that a LG character who refuses to defile for moral reasons might also carry a certain tactical/conceptual rigidity that would prevent them from breaking a personal code even when it's in the greater good to do so, but I think with appropriate roleplaying consideration, a lawful good wizard might defile twice in his entire lifetime (especially getting into upper paragon/epic where there's likely to be more lives/etc riding on his success than at level 1) and still remain very much lawful good.  Similarly, I'd probably require just as much justification from a NG or CG character for them to remain Good (again, to the very limited extent that I'd bother forcibly changing a PC's alignment due to game actions; it hasn't been an issue yet in any of my 4e games).  To do otherwise just reinforces the somewhat obnoxious "Lawful Good is more Good than regular Good" trope that tends to come hand in hand with all the most annoying "stick up the ass" interpretations of the Lawful Good alignment that were inspired by 2e/3e Paladin codes.
#21 chaosfang Apr 20, 2011 19:51:11	Chaosfang, I'm getting from your post that you're seeing defiling not only as an inherently Evil act, but an inherently Chaotic one, and that confuses me.  I mean yes, defiling causes the literal breakdown of the organized molecular (or whatever) structure of the world, so I suppose in the sense of "directly promoting chaos" it's a chaotic act, but that's not normally how I see the Law/Chaos axis used in D&D. (Note: My group still uses 3e alignments in our 4e games since they don't really affect gameplay at all anymore and we, like just about everyone else in the world, find them to be more descriptive, so I'll be discussing 3e alignment on the template of 4e DS since it's the only one I have any experience with.  If that totally invalidates my point for some reason, just let me know.) Defiling is clearly Evil in that it causes permanent damage to the world to fulfill one's short-term goals, but I see, for instance a Lawful Evil character being equally as likely to defile as a Chaotic Evil one.  He might plan it better and have a better understanding (or just actually give a rat's ass) of whether/how his defiling might endanger his long term goals, but he certainly wouldn't hesitate to do it.  Conversely, I would imagine a Lawful Good character defiling in about the same situations as a Chaotic Good character might.  Of course, a CG character might be a little more prone to such behavior in a few cases.  While social convention might not factor into his decision to defile at a critical moment, the social convention in this case isn't arbitrary or oppressive, it's based entirely on the fact that every time someone defiles, Athas gets slightly less habitable, so it comes down to morality regardless.  The main argument I could see is that a LG character who refuses to defile for moral reasons might also carry a certain tactical/conceptual rigidity that would prevent them from breaking a personal code even when it's in the greater good to do so, but I think with appropriate roleplaying consideration, a lawful good wizard might defile twice in his entire lifetime (especially getting into upper paragon/epic where there's likely to be more lives/etc riding on his success than at level 1) and still remain very much lawful good.  Similarly, I'd probably require just as much justification from a NG or CG character for them to remain Good (again, to the very limited extent that I'd bother forcibly changing a PC's alignment due to game actions; it hasn't been an issue yet in any of my 4e games).  To do otherwise just reinforces the somewhat obnoxious "Lawful Good is more Good than regular Good" trope that tends to come hand in hand with all the most annoying "stick up the ass" interpretations of the Lawful Good alignment that were inspired by 2e/3e Paladin codes. Hence, the "Distraction" rules, as given in the DMG2, and not automatic alignment shift.  As written in the DMG2: After having gone to the trouble to create them, playersprobably stick to their motivations. When a PC ignores his motivation to gain a short-term advantage, or for other reasons that seem out of character, declare him distracted.The stress of acting against his instincts costs him preciousmental concentration. Until he reverts to his established motivation, he labors under some or all of the following consequences. • Grants combat advantage. • Takes a -2 penalty to saving throws. • Loses one healing surge after each rest. • Cant regain action points. A player who wants to alter his character's motivationto fit an evolving conception of the character can do so without penalty. A character who constantly shirks his motivation to suit momentary circumstances is a shifty opportunist, and his motives should reflect that. Work with the player to recast his character's motivation to match his behavior. As it is from a guide, you could alter it as necessary, but regardless of what you implement, explain to the players why he suffered that penalty, preferably before the start of the campaign. What I gave was my interpretation of what the OP could do without having to sigificantly change anything that already exists within the system.  My main concern is that the OP is gutting a lot of options simply because the default fluff doesn't suit his game's mechanics.  I have yet to see the criteria for mechanically determining the power difference between the defiler and the preserver, as well as determining the power differences between defilers and preservers, other than what has been established in the Campaign Settings book... wherein novice defilers and those learned in the ways of arcana are able to do two things: alter terrain (at DM discretion) and harm allies as part of empowering a particularly powerful spell (Arcane Defiling at-will), and those who wish to embrace defiling can learn to harness its dark powers (via feats, and eventually via the Paragon Path Master Defiler), and eventually master it, possibly becoming the next Dragon in Athas.  Those who oppose defiling could avoid its use and eventually abandon it altogether (taking either the Master Preserver paragon path or the Avangion epic destiny). Long story short, fluff is mutable.  If the difference between preservers and defilers isn't what they can cast, but how powerful they can cast it, then just rename whatever the character's class is to either preserver or defiler, and adjust appropriately.  It's not like the common or even the uncommon person would know the difference between a Sorcerer defiler, a Wizard defiler, and a Warlock defiler; if they defile, they're defilers, that's it.