Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 johnis Sep 03, 2010 15:59:29	I just started running a DS campaign. One of my players has an arcane character and chose to defile while travelling in the wilderness. The party had 4 elves with them (slaves) during the journey that witnessed the battle (the defiling too) and chose to release them once they got to the nearest town. Should I punish the player for defiling and letting the witnesses go? Should i punish the whole party or should i let this go? And what punishment u think is appropriate and how harsh it should be?
#2 pauze Sep 03, 2010 16:13:15	I have not ran or played a DS campaign but the first thought that came to mind was that the slaves would obviously discuss what they had seen when they were set free. Perhaps a rumor about the character spreads leading to people recognizing an identifiable feature of the character, thus raising suspicions when dealing with the PC(s).
#3 Ozmodious Sep 03, 2010 17:01:22	If it were me I would use the slaves as a "threat". They should be happy that they were freed but talk does occur... later on at some undefined date have the defiler be watched and/or hunted because of rumors they have heard.
#4 Wolf505 Sep 03, 2010 17:08:45	If it were me I would use the slaves as a "threat". They should be happy that they were freed but talk does occur... later on at some undefined date have the defiler be watched and/or hunted because of rumors they have heard. Agreed.  The whole idea of defiling is meant to be that there are consequences to using it.  People HATE defilers.  Like, torches and pitchforks hate.  I'd definately have something happen along the lines of a posse from the town hunting the PCs down, or maybe reporting them to local Templars or something.  The point is, you aren't supposed to be able to defile and get away with it, unless you happen to be a Sorcerer King.  Not only that but I'd encourage others in the party to roleplay out how they feel about this guy sucking out their life force to power his spells.
#5 satanicway Sep 03, 2010 18:05:57	I dont agree at all. If you think that this is a punishment to the player for doing something, DONT DO IT. Its counter productive to what RPG should be about, FUN. But if you think that this is right for the story, and that its something that is bound to happen because of their action, and that it will be MORE FUN to the PLAYERS if this happens, them go for it! Search for a site called Gnome Stew, they have great articles of how to DM. Its not about realism, is not about punishing, its not about anything besides FUN. Saying "Punishment" makes me belive you are going to make the Player regreat his actions, not the character. The slaves probably know what is "defiling" and that people HATE it. And would not talk about something that would cause harm to theyr saviors, because they are grateful. But thats just one of possible outcames. Just do what would be better for the group. If you werent supposed to defile, the option wouldnt exist in the system. It SHOULD be used, when its necessary. The "punishment" is already in the system, it make your allies suffer. Most of the time you should avoid using defiling, because it may attrack attention of a powerful templar or the SK, and you may be killed. But comum folk would never dare to use torches and pithcforks against a Defiler, because they FEAR them more them they HATE them. Most of templars are defilers that use theyr powers openly, and people dont go crazy hunting them. Because they fear them. Templars, and agents of the SK hunts the defilers, comum people run afraid and tell about the defiler to the local Templars. And in fact, people dont hate Defilers, they hate ARCANE CASTERS. It doesnt matter if he defiles or not, if he uses arcane magic in presence of others, hes a defiler. You may even be a powerful preserver, if you use arcane magic, you are a defiler for everyone that witness. So if you punish a character for defiling you are completly wrong. Because the time he casted the first arcane spell he was already being considerated a defiler by everyone. If you wish that your arcane caster use bluff to pass his arcane powers as psionic, even when they are in a forest, with slave elfs they are saving, please ask him to change his character to a non arcane, because he WILL FAIL sometimes. If he have to roll bluff every time to pass the arcane magic as psioniquism even when the only witness are people they are saving. Them he will be hunter by every SK in the world, because he will fail many times, and everyone will know that hes an arcane caster. Its was never about defiling, but the possibility of defiling. Thats why preservers are expecialized in hidding theyr casters as psioniquism, because ARCANE CASTERS are hunted, not defilers. Thank you and sorry by my bad english, not my main language.
#6 Ozmodious Sep 03, 2010 22:40:08	I never said Punish a player for defiling. I simply said that the player can just have the "Threat" of "what if the slaves tell", etc... Defiling destroyed the world... it is wrong to do ( unless you are playing an evil campign. Now granted if the player did it because of a sense of urgency or desperation then the " threat" would be well enough to stop this from becoming habit forming. If the player did it just because he wanted to ... he has been tempted by the dark side. If the other players are good they will know how to handle a defiler in their ranks... if they are evil then they are in for a fun ride with a defiler causing chaos where ever they go. I am all in for having my players have fun... but the group has to choose good guys or bad guys, cause they dont mix
#7 satanicway Sep 04, 2010 0:26:28	Sadira one of the greatest heroes of the Dark Suns story, defiled many, many times... Its about the struggle for survival... defiling should be a temptation, and not something that every time you use you got screwed, because if its so, its not temptating... They should feel theyr actions and the evil side of the defilling when they keep doing it, like Sadira did. They may suffer because of their actions, but if you make them pay for each time they use defilling, its not a temptation anymore, because they will know that it will just make them in an even worst situation them they were before. If they defile without SK authorization inside of a city, in front of a crowd or in sight of templars, them they have screwed themselfs... But not being able to use it even in the remote situations where the only witness will be the guys you are saving the lifes... them its not useful at all. And Dark sun isnt about GOOD HEROES of Justice and purity... Its about heroes that struggle to survive, and kill because they must. They use each resource to try do some good to the world, but they face the evil side of the world at all the times, and they know that in the end the chance of doing some lasting real good is almost zero. This scenario is about savegery, fight to survive, arena matchs to death, struggles to retain some resemblance of good in a world full of greedy templars, evil defilers, and powerful evil lords... Its not about being a bunch of good folks that care about killing some plants. Its about a group of heroes that struggle to remain good, in a evil world, where the strong survive and the weak dies. Thats why arcane casters are rare, and preservers even more rare. Most of them just DIE. Athas is a world of GREY TONES not white and black. Its about heroes that kills to survive, and defile in strugle to keep their lives and the lives of their friends. Its about Sorcery Kings, that are evil lords, but sacrifice alot of their slaves and time, to maintain a greater evil emprisioned... Sorcery Kings that have mundane wishes, not becoming gods, or obtaining infinite power, but ruling their city, maintaining the loyalthy of their people, increasing their slaves... Its about merchant houses, that duel for monetary supremacy, halflings that eats human flash and dont see any problem in doing so... Slavers that imprision people so that they can give a descent meal and some water to theyr childers at home. The most powerful and evil entity, is a crazy guy, that wants to restore the world to what he thinks was the age of peace and purity... Its not about the ultimate evil, or ultimate good, its about tons of grey. Even the Preserver transformation, and the Dragon transformation doesnt have an aligment obrigatority. You may be an Evil Preserver, that thinks you should remove all intelligent beings from Athas, and let the world to the beasts and plants, because the intelligent beings corrupted the earth. Or you might be a talented defiler, that wants to transform into a dragon, so you can beat the sorcery kings and free the people, using theyr own power against them. And thinking that the damage done to the wild life is nothing in compared to the suffering of thousand slaves over Athas. Its about about points of view, not black and white... thats what i like about Dark Sun. There is no greater good, or greater evil...
#8 Duke5150 Sep 04, 2010 1:10:59	I just started running a DS campaign. One of my players has an arcane character and chose to defile while travelling in the wilderness. The party had 4 elves with them (slaves) during the journey that witnessed the battle (the defiling too) and chose to release them once they got to the nearest town. Should I punish the player for defiling and letting the witnesses go? Should i punish the whole party or should i let this go? And what punishment u think is appropriate and how harsh it should be? I wouldn't punish a player for using an option I, the DM, allowed the player to take to begin with. I also wouldn't punish the character, because that's simply not fair or fun for the player. Instead, I would use reasonable consequences. If word gets out about the defiler and his description is passed around, then eventually the Veiled Alliance will hear about it. If this defiler isn't very powerful (low level pc) then the V.A might send initiates or novice members to hunt and destroy or redeem the defiler, as a way of earning trust and showing competence. (a test) If they fail, the defiler has shown itself to be a potential threat. The V.A would then (if or when possible) send more skilled arcanists to hunt and destroy the defiler. If those failed, the V.A might send experts or back off for a time, using outside sources to attack the defiler, instead of wasting more members. Another consequence is common citizens of the city-states and villages who hate "arcane spellcasters", and would attempt to destroy the defiler. Reporting the defiler to the templar is a must. Not reporting a known arcanist could be a crime in itself. This could set up some cool minion fights (commoners), city guards, templars and so on. In the desert, a spellcaster is useful and not every nomadic tribe will destroy a spellcaster. That's not to say they won't, either. For some, destroying a spellcaster is like destroying a potential sorcerer king. You also have elemental cults and wandering druids to consider. Defilers face a lot of encounters, simply by being who they are. Like any arcane spellcaster, whether preserver or defiler. You can press the defiler hard, making it alittle harder to take extended rests. But it should be fair or it won't be fun. It should also be known that defilers are very useful allies and a lot of people would ally with one. Even sorcerer kings will sometimes make use of a defiler. You should also make sure the player knows he/she should be rolling bluff checks whenever casting a spell to attempt to mask it as a psionic power instead of an arcane one.
#9 satanicway Sep 04, 2010 1:14:55	I just started running a DS campaign. One of my players has an arcane character and chose to defile while travelling in the wilderness. The party had 4 elves with them (slaves) during the journey that witnessed the battle (the defiling too) and chose to release them once they got to the nearest town. Should I punish the player for defiling and letting the witnesses go? Should i punish the whole party or should i let this go? And what punishment u think is appropriate and how harsh it should be? I wouldn't punish a player for using an option I, the DM, allowed the player to take to begin with. I also wouldn't punish the character, because that's simply not fair or fun for the player. Instead, I would use reasonable consequences. If word gets out about the defiler and his description is passed around, then eventually the Veiled Alliance will hear about it. If this defiler isn't very powerful (low level pc) then the V.A might send initiates or novice members to hunt and destroy or redeem the defiler, as a way of earning trust and showing competence. (a test) If they fail, the defiler has shown itself to be a potential threat. The V.A would then (if or when possible) send more skilled arcanists to hunt and destroy the defiler. If those failed, the V.A might send experts or back off for a time, using outside sources to attack the defiler, instead of wasting more members. Another consequence is common citizens of the city-states and villages who hate "arcane spellcasters", and would attempt to destroy the defiler. Reporting the defiler to the templar is a must. Not reporting a known arcanist could be a crime in itself. This could set up some cool minion fights (commoners), city guards, templars and so on. In the desert, a spellcaster is useful and not every nomadic tribe will destroy a spellcaster. That's not to say they won't, either. For some, destroying a spellcaster is like destroying a potential sorcerer king. You also have elemental cults and wandering druids to consider. Defilers face a lot of encounters, simply by being who they are. Like any arcane spellcaster, whether preserver or defiler. You can press the defiler hard, making it alittle harder to take extended rests. But it should be fair or it won't be fun. It should also be known that defilers are very useful allies and a lot of people would ally with one. Even sorcerer kings will sometimes make use of a defiler. You should also make sure the player knows he/she should be rolling bluff checks whenever casting a spell to attempt to mask it as a psionic power instead of an arcane one. The problem with considering defiling consequences so harsh is that that the players WILL fail at bluff checks to pass arcane as psionic sometimes. And if everytime he fails he gets someone hunting the group, they will die for sure... (and it doesnt matter if he defiles or not, if he uses arcane magic, hes a defiler to most of people, and almost all witness, thats why Veiled Alliance dont believe in people that saw "defilers" beacause they might be just an arcane caster, or a VA mage himself...)
#10 Duskweaver Sep 04, 2010 2:34:04	The party had 4 elves with them Here's your answer. Elves don't give a crap about defiling, because they're nomads and don't have to try and grow crops in the dead ground left behind. If they're particularly ungrateful/greedy elves, they might try to blackmail the PCs, but probably not even then, since they're escaped slaves and have just as much to lose from bringing the attention of the local templars down on themselves. "Give us all your money, or we'll tell the templars what we saw you do, defiler!" "OK, go ahead. Show them your slave tattoos while you're at it." "Err... never mind..."
#11 johnis Sep 04, 2010 4:13:07	I dont agree at all. If you think that this is a punishment to the player for doing something, DONT DO IT. Its counter productive to what RPG should be about, FUN. The thing is that we agreed to move from FR to DS because  the players wanted sth more challenging. So, in essence "punishment" (the proper word might be "consequences") is in the long term part of FUN. If the players don't see any difference between DS and FR in the long term, then we didn't achieve our goal = we didn't have fun = i failed as DM. In my opinion (as i understand the DS world as I ve read it in 4e and played it a couple of times in 2e), defiling is the only player option that can guarantee death. Metal can attract attention but u keep it if u r powerful enough, arcane magic in general can be masked using bluff, defiling though is the proof that u r an arcane spellcaster thus u r a dead person if caught by the templars. Now, this is probably THE most challenging element of the whole setting: defiling and getting away with it. So i feel if i leave it unpunished - i.e. without consequences- it is what in long term will ruin the fun. So, i need the player to feel that he should always be careful for witnesses, he doesn't know whom he can trust etc. That s what will make the difference for this player in the transition from FR to DS. I m just trying to figure out what r the proper consequences that s all. The idea of the rumor is ok, but in fact nothing will happen to him straight away. The idea of the VA hunting him down is also ok, but i want sth shorter and more straight forward Anyway, this is all good, i ll probably take one of these choices By the way, the party is evil
#12 satanicway Sep 04, 2010 7:17:51	Johnis:  What you are getting wrong is that it will not create a more challenging world... IF YOU DO THAT, EVERY GROUP WITH ARCANE CASTERS WILL DIE EVERY TIME, BECAUSE HE WILL FAIL IN THE BLUFF ROLLS SOMETIMES, AND WHEN YOU FAIL YOU ARE RECOGNISED AS A DEFILER, DOSNT MATTER IF YOU ARE A DEFILER OR A PRESERVER. Athas isnt dangerous this way. Athas is dangerous bacause it lacks water, in desert you face monsters with LVL+3 to LVL+5 sometimes, without a single magic item. Athas is dangerous because you might end as a slave every corner. Athas is dangerous because Sorcery Kings rule the citys. Athas is dangerous because Greedy Templars control the citys. Athas is dangerous because you might end in the Arena, and die. Athas is more dangerous, them any other scenario, besides Ravenloft. If defilling cause such a problem every time, it simple suck as a mechanic, and dosnt worth using, so he will just never use it anymore... And that just destroy all the point of temptation. There should be consequences, of the abuse, not the only use. It should happen when he fails his bluff in from of a templar... it should happen if he keeps defiling every time, so raising more and more coments about him from the local people, until it reaches a templar. And even them, it cant be that lethal that the group cannot avoid somehow. He can be spotted by a SK and become a Templar in his work if hes evil. Or they can run to another city... and one day he will be powerful enough to attrack the attention of the SK and pledge to be one of his templars, and them defiling would be ok. What people needs to understand is that "Defiling" and "Not passing on a bluff to use arcane magic as psionics" have the same effect on ANY witness, the guy is a defiler for everyone that look at it. So if you "punish" the player for defiling, he will die soon, because he will fail on bluffs, and having huge concequences every time. Talk to the player about it, hear what he thinks about his use of defiling. If he agrees with you, do it. But if not, either ask him to change his character to a non Arcane, or just stop trying to make Arcane casters unplayable on your Athas. Remember that 4ed is all about class balance. Read again 4ed DS CS. Forget all about 2ed, and just read the 4ed one. And you will see that you are making Arcane Casters almost unplayable with your descision. Defilling shouldnt be unusable, but a temptation, that is allways there, a possiblity that can enhance your power, but in doing so you cause alot of pain from your allies, and if overused your face might become know in a city as a Defiler, and that might end your life. But so does using much arcane spells, so you shouldnt care SO much. Thats what makes it a temptation, its not hard to use, most of the times, you loose nothing with it. Its a gamble that you have 95% chance of win if used right when there isnt crowds whatching. Its about a temptation to the evil side of Dark Sun. The temptation to use a power that hurst the land and your allies, just to gain more power. Since the group is already evil, defiling should be a comum pratice, as it was for evil arcane casters in 2ed and as 4ed suggest. And why they are saving slave elfs and releasing them if they are evil? I would get the slaves for myself. Or simple sell them and when they say about me being a defiler, i would say "Nah, slaves are aways trying to cause problems to his masters... Its because i tortured them allitle on the way because they walked so slowly, now hes trying a bitter revange. Pathetic. Well how much will you pay for them?" And its really difficult to belive a slave, over his master.
#13 Knight_Marshal Sep 04, 2010 7:47:03	Allowing the character to get away with it over time would be about the same as allowing a Jedi to use dark side powers with no consequence. Defiling is supposed to be a temptation for the player though IMO it is not enough of one. The lack of any real consequences takes away from what defiling is supposed to be about and what Dark Sun is about. Defiling ruined a once green world and the people have never forgotten that. It is part of their history and lore whether or not they believe it or not. Part of the hazard of the world and game should be that someone will hunt you down if they find out you are an arcane caster. If they find out you are a defiler, lots of people will hunt you down, especially if you manage to draw the attention of a sorceror king.
#14 satanicway Sep 04, 2010 8:02:05	No... please dont compare Dark Sun with Star Wars... Dark Sun is not LIGHT and DARKNESS, Evil and Good. Its about survival, and using what you have to survive. Please read the book again before you post something. =/ It doesnt matter if you defile or not, if you are an arcane caster you are a defiler to the templars and to the people of the city. Thats why Veiled Alliance is VEILED, because they hide themselfs. And please read alittle about the novels of Dark Sun... Sadira the greatest arcane HERO of dark sun used defiling more them once... Please read the novels, and the Campaign Setting before creating random assumptions... YOU SHOULD DEFILE if you need to. Its a Harsh world, if you keep yourself from the tools to the victory you DIE, its dark sun it doesnt forgive you because you want to be GOOD or do the right thing, because the others DONT do it! Thats why its uber difficult to be a preserver.
#15 greyorm Sep 04, 2010 12:04:34	Should I punish the player for defiling and letting the witnesses go? Should i punish the whole party or should i let this go? And what punishment u think is appropriate and how harsh it should be? This is a great chance to learn effective DMing technique: the name of the game is fun. If you can't think of a way to make this into a fun thing for the players to experience, into something that will excite and interest them, then don't do it. If you're DMing because you get a kick out of pushing the other players around and being the "boss", stop DMing right now. It is not your purview, as DM, to "punish" players or to "teach them a lesson". You are not "the boss", "the guy", "the leader", "the authority" or any other such noise. You're the host. Your job is to help the players create a story together and provide the most fun you can towards that end. This doesn't mean you can't react to the situation or use it: you could have a mob show up to try and capture the PC, and he whoops them soundly, maybe they reveal it was the elves who tipped them off. Then the PC has something to follow up on, or not ("Darn those elves! Grr!"). Or the mob tells a local templar, and he heads out with some guards (or the mob), hunting the defiler in the king's name. And the group has a new recurring villain to worry about, one who strikes at inopportune times, or is occasionally forced to work with them to survive. Or whatever. The trick, however, is to guage the player's reactions to what you're doing with whatever you come up with. If they don't seem interested, back off and end the whole thing, do something else. If the templar nemesis seems to bore them, drop it. But if the idea of being hunted by a templar, or seeking vengeance against the elves they freed, or whatever excites them, then use it!
#16 RyndarLocke Sep 04, 2010 15:51:20	I just started running a DS campaign. One of my players has an arcane character and chose to defile while travelling in the wilderness. The party had 4 elves with them (slaves) during the journey that witnessed the battle (the defiling too) and chose to release them once they got to the nearest town. Should I punish the player for defiling and letting the witnesses go? Should i punish the whole party or should i let this go? And what punishment u think is appropriate and how harsh it should be? I think I would have the elves be reoccuring characters.  That Arcane PC has shown powers not unlike that of a SK. But, the PC is a just and honorable person.  I would see the word spread of a powerful Arcane player roaming the area.  Have freemen and possibly escaped slaves hunt him or her down.  Why you ask?  Protection from the Templars, slave owners and SK. As more people track the player down Templars or the SK themself will hear of it, and start to hunt them.  One thing is for certain the player will become more aware of who watches what they do in a world where a magic missle will get you hunted.
#17 rollawaythestone Sep 04, 2010 22:21:33	Here's your answer. Elves don't give a crap about defiling, because they're nomads and don't have to try and grow crops in the dead ground left behind. If they're particularly ungrateful/greedy elves, they might try to blackmail the PCs, but probably not even then, since they're escaped slaves and have just as much to lose from bringing the attention of the local templars down on themselves. "Give us all your money, or we'll tell the templars what we saw you do, defiler!" "OK, go ahead. Show them your slave tattoos while you're at it." "Err... never mind..." Duskweaver nailed it. Elves, out of all the races on Athas, probably care the least about defiling. "If the land is ruined here, we can just move somewhere else." However, Elves are sneaky back-stabbing bastards. They will definitely try and blackmail the players, or sell information to their enemies, even if they were saved by them.
#18 JayDarkson Sep 05, 2010 3:05:59	I just started running a DS campaign. One of my players has an arcane character and chose to defile while travelling in the wilderness. The party had 4 elves with them (slaves) during the journey that witnessed the battle (the defiling too) and chose to release them once they got to the nearest town. Should I punish the player for defiling and letting the witnesses go? Should i punish the whole party or should i let this go? And what punishment u think is appropriate and how harsh it should be? I wouldn't use the word "punishment" for one thing, let's use consequences. Defiling is hated amongst just about everybody that isn't a defiler on Athas. But arcane magic is hated just as much. I can't remember which page it is in the DS campaign guide but anybody that witnesses an arcane user (not just a defiler) using magic is liable to report them immediately to whatever authorities are in the area. I think people just assume both an arcane user and defiler are one in the same. Some of the questions that come to mind are: 1) How did the Defiler treat the slaves? 2) How did the entire party treat the slaves? 3) Have the slaves been affected by defiling or arcane magic in the past (a master that used it on them as a method of punishment or a master that was a defiler/arcane user in general) 4) Is there a reward for bringing Defilers to justice in your campaign? I could go on, the point is you have to ask yourself if you really want to pursue this and turn it into a consequence with maybe a plot hook or leave it be. Maybe give the players a chance to act out a skill challenge to proclaim their innocence (to the slaves) and that they are good heroes, sending in the mob with bone pitchforks and torches only if they fail the skill challenge.