So they have taken the two arcane classess perserver and defiler of the classic Dark Sun setting and boiled the mechanics into an @-will, free action class feature. Defiler magic basically allows a reroll, you must take the second roll, if you choose to "defile" your spell. There is a cost, all ally in a close burst 5 take necrotic damage. A caster can choose to use the defiler feature or not, anytime they cast a spell. They hint to other features that allow to further focus on either defiler or the peeserver tradition, even forgoing the use of defiler magic all together.
I think it is a great feature. I was wondering how they were going to incoporate, the defiler & perserver traditions of Dark Sun. I really like how they have done it. Defiler magic is going to be awfully tempting to use by gamers.
It is called Arcane Defiling
It specifically says all allies within 20 take necrotic damage equal to half thier healing surge value, so 1/8th of a PCs total hp.
You can only use it once a day with you daily powers.
Some of my own speculation;
Defiler power that allow you to siphon an enemies life force to power other attacks.
Anti or counter defiling powers as immediate interrupts or reactions for perservers
Defiler powers that add temp hp.
PReserver powers that give attack bonuses or temp hp.
How much is the necrotic damage?
One half of the ally's healing surge value.
And when you say that allies take damage, I am guessing ennemies also take the same damage. Not a bad mechanic. It fits the fluff. I would prefere that it does bonus damage or raise the level of the power, but this ain't possible anymore.
Nope, the allies only. The fluff reason, as I understand it, goes along the lines of: the allies, by virtue of being closer to the Defiler, are easier to draw energy from. I would rule that if there are no allies within range, the Defiler would take a full Healing Surge of damage to power their own spell or that the Arcane Defiling power fizzles.
Before detailing the power, the article also mentions the effects of using defiling magic on the local (non monster) flora. Using any arcane power without preserving does damage to local flora in burst one around the caster. Using a Daily without preserving does more damage dependant on the level of the Daily. One is assumed to preserving unless you say otherwise, however many evil arcanists who have no fear of retribution often defile even with minor spells for the intimidation factor.
I am, obviously, very very happy that it's a feature of Arcane magic, rather than two separate classes. Vindication for years of long arguments on that subject while developing DS3.
It also makes wizards that much more dangerous, and interesting to play -- it's not a choose-once and you're done thing, it's a constant tempation. Here, truly, any wizard is suspect. Mechanics and setting fluff align -- and that's a good thing.
Did it say any arcane class, to include Bards, Warlocks, and Swordmages; or is it a feature specific to Wizards? I remember that was something mentioned in an early devblog- that any arcane class, not just Wizards, could be tempted to defile.
It also talks about disguising arcane power. Arcane users can disguise their power as either primal or psionic if they so choose.
Overall, I like the mechanic.
No, the whole divide between defilers and preservers is that Defilers *will* defile, while Preservers will not. There are enough examples of undercover defilers, not to mention our cannonical wizard example who acutally switched from a preserver to a defiler, that it should be clear that the brick-wall separation between the two existed only in the rules.
I am, obviously, very very happy that it's a feature of Arcane magic, rather than two separate classes. Vindication for years of long arguments on that subject while developing DS3.
It also makes wizards that much more dangerous, and interesting to play -- it's not a choose-once and you're done thing, it's a constant tempation. Here, truly, any wizard is suspect. Mechanics and setting fluff align -- and that's a good thing.
It more or less is borrowing from the concepts that Athas.org already had put into their DS3 setting. Nice to see that concept rolled out in a 4E manner, with some real draw-backs added.
Did it say any arcane class, to include Bards, Warlocks, and Swordmages; or is it a feature specific to Wizards? I remember that was something mentioned in an early devblog- that any arcane class, not just Wizards, could be tempted to defile.
Yes, it's any arcane class. Defiling is a "feature" of Arcane magic, not Wizards specifically.
The article even mentions using defiling magic to damage enemies . . .
Hmm. It looks cool so far, though I expected maybe a bit more. I imagine there are other options soon to be shown or included in the book, however.
The article even mentions using defiling magic to damage enemies . . .
Well, there could be some defiling feats we haven't seen, or other such things. That was the direction that Athas.org took with defiling.
Personaly...I know most of my characters response to a defiler in my group that stole my energy would be a slit throat in the middle of the night. Unbless the defiler is really good at explaining.
I see two more "common" accommodations, though:
- The party has some ground rules on when they'll tolerate defiling.
- There's a really pivotal moment in the encounter and the use of defiling will be a Big Talk afterwards.
A variant of the first accommodation might be the caster saying, "If the encounter goes such-and-such a way, I will do what's necessary to survive."
I can see resist necrotic becoming really popular. Assuming that you can resist the damage from the defiling. Trying to find the article that was mentioned now so I can read some more on the new setting...
In the description it says the damage ignores immunities and can't be reduced in any way.
It is...interesting. I don't know if I like it that much though. Any disadvantage or cost( which ultimately it is) that a Players takes that the other players actualy suffer...usualy does not make for a happy play group.
Um, this would be exactly why wizards are hated and feared? Because the point is that defilers don't care about the other characters (ie: the play group)...
You don't want to upset the other players, don't be a wizard; and if you are, don't defile.
You don't want to upset the other players, don't be a wizard; and if you are, don't defile.
Or only defile when you can get away with it.
In the first novel Sadira uses her mentor Ktandeo's cane, which exclusively uses animal life energy to power itself, a kind of mimic of a dragon's power...without affecting the environment around you. Its effect on enemies and allies was a lot more potent.
I can see 4e Arcane Defiling inflicting actual damage to one's allies as similar to the principal we see in the scenes involving the cane.
If one wants to know how the heroes of the Prism Pentad reacted to being drained of some of their life energy to help power Sadira's efforts to help the party escape from pursuit...read the novel.
doesnt seem flavorful enough for me. I thought the hole divide between preserve/defile was that defliers didnt have any option but to defile all the time...thats where they got the power to use magic.
They do- mainly it kills plant life around you anytime you use arcane magic unless you specifically preserve.
If you take it one step further though it seems to hurt your allies.
They also mentioned that there would be kind of like "pathways" you could go so if you say use too much defiling magic you can't stop, or if you only preserve you can no longer defile.
Sounds really cool.
Can I just say I predicted the damaging of allies re defiling magic like 6 months back?
Given that the first version of the Arcane Defiling Power that we saw, about six months back (early / mid January) on the D&D Experience character sheets, damaged your allies, I'd say that anyone who disagreed with you was making a sucker's bet, kind of like betting on the outcome of a prerecorded baseball game. ;)
It is...interesting. I don't know if I like it that much though. Any disadvantage or cost( which ultimately it is) that a Players takes that the other players actualy suffer...usualy does not make for a happy play group. Though my group can deal with it. I can see alot of friction in groups.
Personaly...I know most of my characters response to a defiler in my group that stole my energy would be a slit throat in the middle of the night. Unbless the defiler is really good at explaining.
Which is why arcane spell casters are universally reviled in Dark Sun. I think that is the point, defiling magic is tempting, but comes with a wicked price, being alienated by your allies.
Or only defile when you can get away with it.
Yep!
In the novels regular defiling had little effect on enemies or your allies. Some queasiness was involved.
In the first novel Sadira uses her mentor Ktandeo's cane, which exclusively uses animal life energy to power itself, a kind of mimic of a dragon's power...without affecting the environment around you. Its effect on enemies and allies was a lot more potent.
I can see 4e Arcane Defiling inflicting actual damage to one's allies as similar to the principal we see in the scenes involving the cane.
If one wants to know how the heroes of the Prism Pentad reacted to being drained of some of their life energy to help power Sadira's efforts to help the party escape from pursuit...read the novel.
Actually, if you consider HP to be a measure of combat readiness over the idea of direct physical damage, 1/8 of your pool could be considered to mesh pretty well with the first example.
It is...interesting. I don't know if I like it that much though. Any disadvantage or cost( which ultimately it is) that a Players takes that the other players actualy suffer...usualy does not make for a happy play group. Though my group can deal with it. I can see alot of friction in groups.
Personaly...I know most of my characters response to a defiler in my group that stole my energy would be a slit throat in the middle of the night. Unbless the defiler is really good at explaining.
Which is why arcane spell casters are universally reviled in Dark Sun. I think that is the point, defiling magic is tempting, but comes with a wicked price, being alienated by your allies.
It's also interesting mechanically (to me at least.)
Fundamentally it's no different then say one player choosing to spend an action to buff or heal, or otherwise help another player... Only the first player doesn't get a choice in the matter.
(Akin to how some bards can move marks around and what not.) It's an interesting take on party resource management.
It is...interesting. I don't know if I like it that much though. Any disadvantage or cost( which ultimately it is) that a Players takes that the other players actualy suffer...usualy does not make for a happy play group.
Um, this would be exactly why wizards are hated and feared? Because the point is that defilers don't care about the other characters (ie: the play group)...
You don't want to upset the other players, don't be a wizard; and if you are, don't defile.
Actually it's worth noting that any arcane user can defile in Dark Sun if they want - it's not just wizards.
Honestly, I like the set-up. It places an interesting burden on the player to wonder if the benefits outweigh the costs every time they cast a spell. Maybe they say, "No allies are near me. Nobody will get hurt if I use a little defiling now and then." Which is the EXACT reason Athas is a wasteland. Thousands of years of,"Ah, who is this going to hurt?"
Plus, as encounters are frequently life-threatening, I can see any arcane users in my game deciding to defile as death is becoming more certain for the party. I cannot wait to put one in the situation of possibly draining the last few HP from a dying ally just to save their own skin. Then maybe covering up the death afterwards as an "accident." I'm not a sadistic person but I love finding new roleplaying opportunities in combat.
So why would a sorcerer-king ever need to defile anymore? His magic is probably no longer being directed at people; his life is never really in danger anymore, so he's not really defiling on a day-to-day basis.
Am I reading this right? The only benefit to defiling is rerolling an attack?
So why would a sorcerer-king ever need to defile anymore? His magic is probably no longer being directed at people; his life is never really in danger anymore, so he's not really defiling on a day-to-day basis.
It would be interesting to see if certain high level Rituals required defiling.
Just think of lumberjacks who clearcut versus lumberjacks that do select cutting. Both are still cutting trees.
Am I reading this right? The only benefit to defiling is rerolling an attack?
You only have access to the preview information for 1st-level characters. At higher levels, arcane users probably have access to powerful defiling techniques: for example, what if I offered you something like the feat (I'm totally making this up...):
Improved Arcane Defiling
Before an attack is rolled: You may choose to add +5 damage to any arcane at-will, encounter or daily attack: that attack gains the Necrotic keyword and defiles your allies (and the terrain around the caster).
Would you take the feat? How often would you use it? How long would you last a "preserver"?
There's bound to options like this one for higher-level PCs. The Sorcerer Kings are powerful arcane spell casters that have succumbed to the tempatation and used their power to kill the competition. If they give up their defiling, they give up their power... a choice they are not likely to make.
Am I reading this right? The only benefit to defiling is rerolling an attack?
So why would a sorcerer-king ever need to defile anymore? His magic is probably no longer being directed at people; his life is never really in danger anymore, so he's not really defiling on a day-to-day basis.
It would be interesting to see if certain high level Rituals required defiling.
Yes, how about reducing the cost and casting time of any ritual by half if the players use defiling. That could be an interesting temptation for players.
Am I reading this right? The only benefit to defiling is rerolling an attack?
So why would a sorcerer-king ever need to defile anymore? His magic is probably no longer being directed at people; his life is never really in danger anymore, so he's not really defiling on a day-to-day basis.
This isn't a case of "this power is what defiling is" but rather "this power is an example of how defiling can be used."
I just see alot of play groups not using the rules...or disallowing the option to PCs. As alot of groups of rules against PvP and evil aligned characters. I know alot of players who will complain about Bob doing this...out of game. I can also see alot of player just abuse the heck out of their fellow playersa using it. It is interesting...to me not in a bad way...that alot of 4th ed design was to keep that kind of stuff to a minimal...which this goes counter to.
The only thing I don't like about it...is the first level abilty that a player should get to defile should not be so...obvisous. It should be use it add +1 to your damage or something like that...and kill some plant life. Or if you want to have effect people right off the bat...have it give a condition to a 1 ally. This is something minor that I can see a person saying it is worth doing. It has morer to do with the flavor of corruption I just associate with Defiling magic.
Any Character that has at least 1 Arcane Daily power is granted access to defiling magic. So it's not just Arcane characters, but also MCs and Hybrids.
Arcane Defiling only works on Arcane Daily Attack powers. You cause the necrotic damage to your friends and get to re-roll your daily attack power if you missed rather than taking the missed effect (assuming you hit on the second roll).
So players are not defiling with every power they own, just their arcane dailies. This makes it situational instead of all the time.
I think people misunderstood me. I think it is a very good way to handle defilers( though I hope they keep the plants being killed off flavor as well).
I just see alot of play groups not using the rules...or disallowing the option to PCs. As alot of groups of rules against PvP and evil aligned characters. I know alot of players who will complain about Bob doing this...out of game. I can also see alot of player just abuse the heck out of their fellow playersa using it. It is interesting...to me not in a bad way...that alot of 4th ed design was to keep that kind of stuff to a minimal...which this goes counter to.
The only thing I don't like about it...is the first level abilty that a player should get to defile should not be so...obvisous. It should be use it add +1 to your damage or something like that...and kill some plant life. Or if you want to have effect people right off the bat...have it give a condition to a 1 ally. This is something minor that I can see a person saying it is worth doing. It has morer to do with the flavor of corruption I just associate with Defiling magic.
Oh... I get it. The defiling mechanic is not the problem... but it can lead to another problem: troublesome PCs.
I'm sure everybody's played a game where there was a problem player character. It could be the annoying halfling thief that keeps on stealing treasure or other players' gold; it could be evil warlock or lawful good paladin who's alignment disagrees with the party's; it could be an annoying bard that sings too many tunes... no matter the problem, we've all played a game where the player characters don't mesh perfectly: "Okay, Mr Paladin, we're going to have a talk about what we'll do next, and you might want to take a bathroom break instead of listening to what we have to say." Now, there's an actual game mechanic that can promote this: defiling. When a caster defiles, he/she purposefully annoys and hurts or maybe even kills other player characters. This could potentially destroy a party's "gel".
With 4E promoting party dynamics, why have they introduced a new rule that can cause rifts in a party? Should players disallow this? Should DMs homebrew out the rule?
The truth of it is Dark Sun is not about happy-go-lucky parties. A Dark Sun party is a dynamic thing: Players leave, get killed... the party usually changes slightly every so often. Some DMs even suggest players bring multiple characters to sessions.
If you're a DM or player that really wants to keep parties together, don't remove the Arcane Defiling rule - that's not the problem. Instead, try and deal with the real problem: Make sure the defiler understands the consequences of his/her actions. Make sure that the other players understand that the defiler might have been in a life-or-death situation. The defiling "might" have been warrented even.
Finally, I hate to be the DM to say it: kill or exile the defiler PC. I'd recommend informing your DM before doing so (pass him a note, text his cell phone or email him between games) or if you are the DM, let players know their options. It sucks for a player to get overwhelmed by the other characters, but they must learn the consequences of their actions.
Desperate times calls for desperate measures, right?
I think people misunderstood me. I think it is a very good way to handle defilers( though I hope they keep the plants being killed off flavor as well).
I just see alot of play groups not using the rules...or disallowing the option to PCs. As alot of groups of rules against PvP and evil aligned characters. I know alot of players who will complain about Bob doing this...out of game. I can also see alot of player just abuse the heck out of their fellow playersa using it. It is interesting...to me not in a bad way...that alot of 4th ed design was to keep that kind of stuff to a minimal...which this goes counter to.
The only thing I don't like about it...is the first level abilty that a player should get to defile should not be so...obvisous. It should be use it add +1 to your damage or something like that...and kill some plant life. Or if you want to have effect people right off the bat...have it give a condition to a 1 ally. This is something minor that I can see a person saying it is worth doing. It has morer to do with the flavor of corruption I just associate with Defiling magic.
Oh... I get it. The defiling mechanic is not the problem... but it can lead to another problem: troublesome PCs.
I'm sure everybody's played a game where there was a problem player character. It could be the annoying halfling thief that keeps on stealing treasure or other players' gold; it could be evil warlock or lawful good paladin who's alignment disagrees with the party's; it could be an annoying bard that sings too many tunes... no matter the problem, we've all played a game where the player characters don't mesh perfectly: "Okay, Mr Paladin, we're going to have a talk about what we'll do next, and you might want to take a bathroom break instead of listening to what we have to say." Now, there's an actual game mechanic that can promote this: defiling. When a caster defiles, he/she purposefully annoys and hurts or maybe even kills other player characters. This could potentially destroy a party's "gel".
With 4E promoting party dynamics, why have they introduced a new rule that can cause rifts in a party? Should players disallow this? Should DMs homebrew out the rule?
The truth of it is Dark Sun is not about happy-go-lucky parties. A Dark Sun party is a dynamic thing: Players leave, get killed... the party usually changes slightly every so often. Some DMs even suggest players bring multiple characters to sessions.
If you're a DM or player that really wants to keep parties together, don't remove the Arcane Defiling rule - that's not the problem. Instead, try and deal with the real problem: Make sure the defiler understands the consequences of his/her actions. Make sure that the other players understand that the defiler might have been in a life-or-death situation. The defiling "might" have been warrented even.
Finally, I hate to be the DM to say it: kill or exile the defiler PC. I'd recommend informing your DM before doing so (pass him a note, text his cell phone or email him between games) or if you are the DM, let players know their options. It sucks for a player to get overwhelmed by the other characters, but they must learn the consequences of their actions.
Desperate times calls for desperate measures, right?
Thus my comment, "Only defile if you can get away with it."
It seems to me that except for something I disagree with (like Dray= Dragonborn I don't remember the Dray having a breath weapon...or having Eladarin at all...though I'll await to see exactly how they are going to handle that) they seem far more willing to move away from some of the 4th Ed assumption for this setting. And actualy adapt the rules to the setting...unlike what they did previsously for the most part.
So I and most people I game with won't have issues with what they are doing...I justy see it becoming unpopular with certain 4th Ed players. Hopefuly this is a sign of things to come for future 4th ed products and 5th edition.
(like Dray= Dragonborn I don't remember the Dray having a breath weapon...or having Eladarin at all...though I'll await to see exactly how they are going to handle that)
A little off topic here, but they just came out with an alternative to Dragonborn breath weapon: Dragonfear. I think I'll recommend this Dragon article to any of my players that are interesting in playing a Dray in 4E Dark Sun.
www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d...
I agree. I think a Dragonborn (Dray) Dragonfear Sorcerer King Pact Warlock would be a heck of a scary character.
Even more so if you constantly walk around going: "BoooOOOoooOOOOOO" like a cheesy Halloween ghost.
The essence of Arcane Magic in Dark Sun was that ALL mages defile unless they learn the art of Preserving as they cast which meant it took longer to cast the spell in the old days.
Any mage who doesn't 'carefully' draw out the magic(life force) from nearby lands and people will cause damage to the land( making it infertile) and hurting people.
It never did damage to anyone( mechanically wise) but did hurt.
Defilers are however hated for further destroying the lands life force and turning it infertile. Everyone hates them. Even the sorcerer kings because they could be a threat.
Any arcane caster was also suspect In case he was a defiler.
HP is an abstraction that includes the will to fight, so "everyone loses some HP" is a good representation of "everyone feels worse off when a defiler casts."
Also, the Sorcerer Kings hate all defilers /that don't work for them/. They're defilers and have defilers in their service. Saying the SKs hated defilers is like saying that the US and Russian governments hated nuclear weapons during the Cold War.
The essence of Arcane Magic in Dark Sun was that ALL mages defile unless they learn the art of Preserving as they cast which meant it took longer to cast the spell in the old days.
I think that it's fine to continue making this assumption; but to be an arcane PC they should understand preserving, if only to be able to disguise their powers when it's needed and to avoid being an instant enemy of the local Veiled Alliance. In other words, playing someone who's unable to preserve is similar to playing any other kind of PC that might not mesh well with the rest of the party, and up to the DM to allow or not; the mere ability to defile is a source of enough conflict on its own.
You can defile all the time, except that it will get you killed rather than feared. Its with daily powers that you also get a rerol and damage nearby allies.
When you use any arcane power, you can choose to defile, destroying mundane plant life within at least 1 square of you. When you use a daily arcane attack power, the damage to the world extends out a number of squares equal to half the level of the power you use. This destruction does not normally affect creatures or terrain, though defiled squares might become defiled terrain (described in the Dark Sun Creature Catalog) at the Dungeon Master’s discretion. You are considered to be preserving unless you choose to defile.
You can defile all the time, except that it will get you killed rather than feared. Its with daily powers that you also get a rerol and damage nearby allies.
Sweet. Being a wizard is enough to get you killed most the time. Is there going to be a terrain modifer or the likes? I remember in 2e they had terrain modifiers for defiling magic seeing how 4e is different and all.
When you use any arcane power, you can choose to defile, destroying mundane plant life within at least 1 square of you. When you use a daily arcane attack power, the damage to the world extends out a number of squares equal to half the level of the power you use. This destruction does not normally affect creatures or terrain, though defiled squares might become defiled terrain (described in the Dark Sun Creature Catalog) at the Dungeon Master’s discretion. You are considered to be preserving unless you choose to defile.
You can defile all the time, except that it will get you killed rather than feared. Its with daily powers that you also get a rerol and damage nearby allies.
That first line of the quoted text makes no sense unless there are or will be some powers or feats that require you to defile, whether your power is a Daily or not.
When you use any arcane power, you can choose to defile, destroying mundane plant life within at least 1 square of you. When you use a daily arcane attack power, the damage to the world extends out a number of squares equal to half the level of the power you use. This destruction does not normally affect creatures or terrain, though defiled squares might become defiled terrain (described in the Dark Sun Creature Catalog) at the Dungeon Master’s discretion. You are considered to be preserving unless you choose to defile.
You can defile all the time, except that it will get you killed rather than feared. Its with daily powers that you also get a rerol and damage nearby allies.
That first line of the quoted text makes no sense unless there are or will be some powers or feats that require you to defile, whether your power is a Daily or not.
Yes and no.
There might very well be such powers and/or feats.
I agree, other than flavor, there is absolutely no reason to defile if you don't need to for an increase in power...other than the little blurb directly below it, that defines "defiled terrain" as having special features in the DSCC. Since we only have a potential knowledge of what "defiled terrain" does, it may very well be quite sufficient in power to simply create such terrain.
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If the Fury of the Wastewalker is pointing us in the right direction, defiled terrain does at least two things, possibly more: 1) Healing is half-effective in defiled terrain; 2) Some creatures avoid entering defiled terrain at all costs. That seems to have some definite tactical potential.
Thus my comment, "Only defile if you can get away with it."
Or don't play Dark Sun with pansies. ;)
I am jesting. I wish I could find the article. I am a DDI subscriber.
I am looking at the Dark Sun pregens. From the pregens, it appears the defiling magic only affects Daily arcane powers. The preserver doesn't have the defiling listed on its sheet.
It has also inspired me to come up with a haunted wasteland that, devoid of plant and animal life but populated by active desert spirits, was utterly warped by a defiler. (After all, no one would expect him to be very powerful in a place so seemingly barren.) An empty, dry expanse of cracked ground, where the wind itself howls in agony. *shudder*
The essence of Arcane Magic in Dark Sun was that ALL mages defile unless they learn the art of Preserving as they cast which meant it took longer to cast the spell in the old days.
That depends on the source you're looking at. It is said that Rajaat taught defiling in secret, only to his best students. So if defiling was the default and the easier path, as it is usually presented, and preserving had to be learned, Rajaat keeping it a secret would be difficult. This is one of the many contradictory points in the setting lore, and one of the things that has always bothered me.
It never did damage to anyone( mechanically wise) but did hurt.
True. And as I recall, this was reflected as a penalty to initiative for those caught in the defiling radius of a caster. Given healing surges and such in 4E, I'm ok with the HP sap.
While the preservers spent a little more time being careful gathering the life energy for their spells, this occurred in the off time when they were memorizing their spells and had no effect on the game.
This was true only in the second edition boxed set, where you could choose when to gather energy (during memorization or casting). In the first edition set, everyone gathered only when they cast (an option I vastly prefer), but as I recall, it didn't mechanically affect the time it took to cast a spell.
I like how they are adding more layers to how magic works and changes gameplay. An entire strategy can change for a party once an arcane user is added into the mix.
That depends on the source you're looking at. It is said that Rajaat taught defiling in secret, only to his best students. So if defiling was the default and the easier path, as it is usually presented, and preserving had to be learned, Rajaat keeping it a secret would be difficult. This is one of the many contradictory points in the setting lore, and one of the things that has always bothered me.
One of the things that I did when I wrote the Other Eras of Play section was to try to explain this. What I said was that preserving and defiling actually are different, but that the Jihad before the Cleansing Wars, and the Wars themselves, were so effective in eliminating preservers that the only ones who really know how to do it today are really ancient undead and perhaps a few choice mages taught by them. A very, very small number. Everyone else (even the Veiled Alliance) actually uses the defiler style of casting that Rajaat taught in secret, but they excercise self control in a way that real preservers never really had to worry about.
Of course, that's not the case in 4e. But it did help to explained why defilers leveled faster in 2e, and, well, having wrote it then, I like it.
That may or may not be the case in 4e, but in my 4e - consider it stollen and implemented.
What I said was that preserving and defiling actually are different, but that the Jihad before the Cleansing Wars, and the Wars themselves, were so effective in eliminating preservers that the only ones who really know how to do it today are really ancient undead and perhaps a few choice mages taught by them.
That's an interesting take. I don't "like" it for personal aesthetic reasons of how magic on Athas feels in my head, but very interesting and certainly a cool rectification the issue!
That's an interesting take. I don't "like" it for personal aesthetic reasons of how magic on Athas feels in my head, but very interesting and certainly a cool rectification the issue!
I'm not sure that it fits the way that magic feels to me either, but Dark Sun magic, and Green Age Athas magic are two very different things in my head. The Green Age would be a totally different setting, with a different feel entirely. With the Green Age over, the fact that no one can access that style anymore is a good thing in my head.
And my head doesn't need to be any one elses.
That's an interesting take. I don't "like" it for personal aesthetic reasons of how magic on Athas feels in my head, but very interesting and certainly a cool rectification the issue!
I'm not sure that it fits the way that magic feels to me either, but Dark Sun magic, and Green Age Athas magic are two very different things in my head. The Green Age would be a totally different setting, with a different feel entirely. With the Green Age over, the fact that no one can access that style anymore is a good thing in my head.
And my head doesn't need to be any one elses.
I usually envision the Green Age as fantasy with psionics replacing magic. Arcane Magic is extremely rare (only one school, run by Rajaat to begin with, which taught the weaker preserving magic), defining is even rarer than that (Rajaat selecting a few of his "best" students to teach them there is a more powerful way). However, for most cases, the arcane students are such an abysmally small percentage of the population they don't account for hardly anything. Psionic academies and orders are proliferate throughout the world, however. Psionic and Primal replace the typical fantasy world's Arcane and Divine respectively for Green Age Athas.
"Green Age Magic", to me, is the advanced forms of psionics that were done, and that has been watered down and lost somewhat over time, to the levels they are now -- mostly taught in schools only nobles attend, otherwise a hodge-podge of people who figure it out, since the world is ripe with psionics.