It seems to me with the increase in monster damage from Dark Sun Creature Catalog and Monster Vault, that Arcane Defiling is a horrible option for any low level party that wants to get through heroic teir. Whenever the option of using the mechanic comes up (in our group), the entire group has to talk the player who can use it down. In fact, it seems like when asked to weight the option of hitting with a daily arcane spell (or even worse, doing more damage) and doing somewhere around 18-20 damage to the rest of the party, the clear answer is not to defile. The only time your party could afford to take the damage (read easy encounter), is the encounter you're not throwing daily spells around.
So I'd like to get a informal survey going of everyone's actual play experiences with Arcane Defiling? How often are you seeing it used, how much damage is it causing your group, is it turning the tides of a battle, etc?
Although I must confess, no one defiled for the first 5 levels, and the irst time it happened was when the wizard found the defiler that killed his parents. It wouldn't have happened either, except I was rp-ing the defiler like this,
"YOU ARE WEAK and PATHETIC! YOU DO NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO DEFEAT ME! DEFILE!! ONLY THEN WILL YOU HAVE A CHANCE!"
So he eventually did, and the defiler was already bloodied by then, so he dealt the killing blow. Since no one died that fight, he defiled over and over again until he got his blood mage PP.
(Oh, and the NPC defiler's last words were, "A powerful defiler is born...In the end, templar, I win!"
)For my part, I never saw it used. So far in my campagin, when it comes to magic, my group is mainly focused on primal power so having someone defile is out of the question.
There was once a swordmage who was affiliated to the Veiled Alliance so he didn't even consider using the defiling option, even during the fight he died.
In the party you described , I can imagine what would happen if the three arcane users defiled during the same encounter
I must continue to tempt them with the power of the darkside..
Course, the players don't need to defile unless it fits with their character. It's like the weapon breakage rules, it's for the players to use at a moment they think appropriate. Just as:
-The battered gladiator jams his sword into his opponents sheild, snapping the sword as he pulls the sheild aside to jam the remaining fractured half of his sword into his opponent's throat
-The wizard might decide that revenge means more than his allies
But, just as:
-The noble-swordsman proud of the sword crafted by his grandfather 20 years ago ("he was quite old then, 40 years old!") probably is going to take care to avoid damaging the edge
-The templar warlock probably wants his tools-- ALLIES! I mean allies! to live long enough to help him.
My take on it is that it won't come up again anytime soon with my players.
Informative survey nonetheless, would be interested to know if people are using the vanilla rules for defiling or a homebrew variant with whatever trends they are seeing ... are the RAW enough of a temptation, or do they need a little polishing ..?
My players defiled more than once because if they didn't, other party members would be getting their **** coup-the-graced.
Weapon Breakage? I lost my count on that, seriously.
If I were to houserule it, I may change it the same way I do skill challenges now. After a roll is missed, spend a healing surge or equivalent hitpoints for a +2 bonus, cumulative until you hit or succeed. Simulates putting that last bit of effort in (or drawing a bit more energy than you should, injuring yourself in the process). I would eliminate the group-damage thing and leave it an effect that corrupts only the user.
It's mechanically attractive at higher levels if you invest in it, and highly attractive when you miss from day 1.
As long as you can survive all your allies loosing 1/4 of thier total hit points for just a chance of success. Remember at lower levels defiling will gurantee the lose of 1/4 of your allies total hit points, put does not gurantee success with the reroll and the use of the daily power. It's a high price to pay even for the defiler, who can lose all his allies/ meat shields and still fail in the reroll attempt after defiling. Even if I played a self centered EVIL unrepentant defiler, defiling is still fraught with risk and would be done in the most dire circumstances.
It's mechanically attractive at higher levels if you invest in it, and highly attractive when you miss from day 1.
As long as you can survive all your allies loosing 1/4 of thier total hit points for just a chance of success. Remember at lower levels defiling will gurantee the lose of 1/4 of your allies total hit points, put does not gurantee success with the reroll and the use of the daily power. It's a high price to pay even for the defiler, who can lose all his allies/ meat shields and still fail in the reroll attempt after defiling. Even if I played a self centered EVIL unrepentant defiler, defiling is still fraught with risk and would be done in the most dire circumstances.
It actually only does half their healing surge in damage; so you're looking at the other party members taking 1/8th their HP in damage. (Roughly)
I too would like to house rule it a little bit. On the fluff side, I think it should also draw energy from the adjacent enemies, but mechanically this unbalances things quite a bit. It also really sucks when the re-roll is also a failure. Maybe allowing a re-roll with a +2, or maybe a +1 for every ally in range?
Defiling has been used almost every day in my campaign. I have an evilish SK pact Warlock who doesn't respect his allies (even though all the players love him). He has already killed one of our players when he used it. The rest of the party is kind of against Defiling, but really they are in the dark about it. They just suddenly feel some of their life force escape out the soles of their feet. I expect there will be some major turmoil when the party figures out what is going on.
I too would like to house rule it a little bit. On the fluff side, I think it should also draw energy from the adjacent enemies, but mechanically this unbalances things quite a bit. It also really sucks when the re-roll is also a failure. Maybe allowing a re-roll with a +2, or maybe a +1 for every ally in range?
And no one notices that they lose life force when the warlock blows something up with his most powerful spells? Really?
In 4E, balance amongst everything is paramount. Defiling is thus only allowed to be a slight bump in power in exchange for a slight detriment. Arcane is forced to stay in balance with other power sources. In my mind, arcane needs to be more powerful for Dark Sun to feel like Dark Sun. That is my humble opinion. Your opinion may differ. Feel free to disagree, but *if* you agree, here are some suggestions.
* Pump up defiling: If you defile *before* your attack roll, you can choose to either: 1.) Increase a burst/blast size by 1, add 1 die of damage, change the damage type of your power (perhaps to a limited list of options), or give yourself a +2 bonus to hit. You can only choose one type of defiling per attack (reroll, increase size, etc...)
* Treat all weapons and implements of levels 6+ as if they were the equivalent 5 level lower version in the hands of non-arcane characters (for example: a 6th level +2 magic sword is treated as a 1st level +1 magic sword in the hands of nonarcane PCs), while all weapons and implements are treated as if they were 5 levels higher in the hands of arcane PCs (that same 6th level magic sword would be treated as if it were an 11th level +3 magic sword in the hands of a swordmage). This also makes survivial tougher in general - which is very Dark Sun.
* Limit the majority of rituals to arcane characters. We've already eliminated most divine rituals - take the majority of the rest of them and drop them in the hands of the Sorcerer-kings, the Veiled Alliance, Bupo the dancing Jester-king, etc...
To me, these changes hurt balance, but make the game feel more like 2E Dark Sun.
Defiling has been used almost every day in my campaign. I have an evilish SK pact Warlock who doesn't respect his allies (even though all the players love him). He has already killed one of our players when he used it. The rest of the party is kind of against Defiling, but really they are in the dark about it. They just suddenly feel some of their life force escape out the soles of their feet. I expect there will be some major turmoil when the party figures out what is going on.
I too would like to house rule it a little bit. On the fluff side, I think it should also draw energy from the adjacent enemies, but mechanically this unbalances things quite a bit. It also really sucks when the re-roll is also a failure. Maybe allowing a re-roll with a +2, or maybe a +1 for every ally in range?
And no one notices that they lose life force when the warlock blows something up with his most powerful spells? Really?
Well of course the players are aware of what is going on, but the characters don't. Remember combat may be turn based for mechanical reasons, but in-game everything is happening simultaneously, and in a fantasy world where there is still a lot of mystery, I think it's perfectly plausible that the characters are in the dark about it.
..,Well of course the players are aware of what is going on, but the characters don't. Remember combat may be turn based for mechanical reasons, but in-game everything is happening simultaneously, and in a fantasy world where there is still a lot of mystery, I think it's perfectly plausible that the characters are in the dark about it.
I fully realize thier is a difference between what a player knows and what a Pc will know. But in the Dark Sun campaign it is common knowledge that defilers draw life energy from arround them, not only thier allies but from plants, which whether and die, and soil which is drained of all life energy and turns to ash. There is a lot to clue in a Pc or Npc that someone is defiling. In fact the use of arcane power, or even precieved use of arcane power, will raise suspicion of defiling from most people of Athas. Heck even a preserver is at risk when casting an arcane spell. So to me, any character in Dark Sun setting experiencing thier life energy being drained when a warlock blows a powerful spell, is very capable of making the connection, especially if one is narrating the other clues i.e whethering plants, water evaporating, soil blowing into ash, etc.
I guess people play the game differently, we have one ardent/ templar of Ablech-Ra, but he has yet to use his templar power yet, because he is scared of what will happen if the others (PC not player the players already know) find out he was defiling trained templar. As Dm I let it be known that casting arcane magic, even for a preserver is a dangerous proposition in public.
But what is most important is how you and your players view the DS setting. I think we have difference in view on how to portray defiling in our respective Dark Sun Setting. For you, it seems, defiling is a mystery, so characters will not always be sure about it when it happens. For me, everyone is aware of defiling and it's effect on the world. Defiling is not a mystery but a harsh part of oppressive life under the yoke of the Sorcerer-Kings on Athas. It's two different approaches to successfully bring to life a Dark Sun game.
Thanks for responding you clarified many things about your point of view. Happy gaming.
..,Well of course the players are aware of what is going on, but the characters don't. Remember combat may be turn based for mechanical reasons, but in-game everything is happening simultaneously, and in a fantasy world where there is still a lot of mystery, I think it's perfectly plausible that the characters are in the dark about it.
I fully realize thier is a difference between what a player knows and what a Pc will know. But in the Dark Sun campaign it is common knowledge that defilers draw life energy from arround them, not only thier allies but from plants, which whether and die, and soil which is drained of all life energy and turns to ash. There is a lot to clue in a Pc or Npc that someone is defiling. In fact the use of arcane power, or even precieved use of arcane power, will raise suspicion of defiling from most people of Athas. Heck even a preserver is at risk when casting an arcane spell. So to me, any character in Dark Sun setting experiencing thier life energy being drained when a warlock blows a powerful spell, is very capable of making the connection, especially if one is narrating the other clues i.e whethering plants, water evaporating, soil blowing into ash, etc.
I guess people play the game differently, we have one ardent/ templar of Ablech-Ra, but he has yet to use his templar power yet, because he is scared of what will happen if the others (PC not player the players already know) find out he was defiling trained templar. As Dm I let it be known that casting arcane magic, even for a preserver is a dangerous proposition in public.
But what is most important is how you and your players view the DS setting. I think we have difference in view on how to portray defiling in our respective Dark Sun Setting. For you, it seems, defiling is a mystery, so characters will not always be sure about it when it happens. For me, everyone is aware of defiling and it's effect on the world. Defiling is not a mystery but a harsh part of oppressive life under the yoke of the Sorcerer-Kings on Athas. It's two different approaches to successfully bring to life a Dark Sun game.
Thanks for responding you clarified many things about your point of view. Happy gaming.
I quite agree with you sirkaikillah. In one of my groups, if a character were to defile in the presence of everyone else, he would certainly not live long enough to defile another time, unless the defiler had some kind of hold on the rest of the party of course (countless arcane users have been killed or turned over to the templars because they just manifested arcane magic, not just defiling magic...of course there is the Bluff skill to make other believe it is not arcane but defiling is blowing up the cover isn't it?. Even evil characters would not accept this in most cases. Arcane magic is dangerous and being seen in a group containing an arcane user is a source of problems for the entire party. They're at risk to be enslaved or kill outright because of this.
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Defiling worked so well in 2E because arcane spells, by themselves, were already overpowered, and defiling made them stronger.
No it didn't. That was the idea behind it, but Defilers just leveled faster than Preservers. The option to Defile or not wasn't there. If you were a Defiler, you did it every time. If you were a Preserver, you never did.
I'm considering changing Defiling so that it drains a healing surge from all of your allies. More "long-term" damage, less "short term." Of course, I'm also working on some tweaks that make Surges a more valuable commodity, not something you automatically replenish completely every time you nap. And if you drop to 0 HP while low on Surges, you're in some serious trouble.