officially we don't know yet
We do not know the "official" fluff particulars to Dark Sun tieflings, however.
The gods did exist at some point in 4e Dark Sun, and there are occasional mentions of devils and demons being summoned by extremely powerful magic users such as the Sorcerer Kings, so you could almost use standard fluff.
Tieflings work well enough in the setting. If I don't like their explanation, I'm just going to go with "some devils trying to escape persecution or exiled from another plane made it to Athas, were severely weakened entering Athas, and only survived by making a pact with some small desert nomad tribe or noble house or nomad tribe descended from a nobel house or noble house descended from a desert tribe."
As for Devas, unless they come up with a good explanation, I'm not gonna allow them unless a player approaches me with a Deva Druid and says "I wanna play a pyreen." Even though standard fluff would work, I figure the SKs would have wiped them out by now, and they clash with the setting enough that I'm just gonna say no. Unless it's my girlfriend (although she said that she'd be more willing to play something else so it's a non-issue), then I'd go with "child of an Avangion."
As it stands, this means there are writeups about Dwarves, Dragonborn, Elves, Eladrin, Halflings, Half-Elves, Tieflings, Goliaths, Muls and Thri-Kreen. You can consider that list confirmed. Plus they might do a short writeup for humans, for completion's sake. With Humans, that makes eleven. That is a pretty hefty list. I personally do not expect writeups past that.
Even though standard fluff would work, I figure the SKs would have wiped them out by now
By standard deva fluff, there's no easy way for the SKs to actually get rid of them. Deva don't require other deva to breed. They just reincarnate into new bodies that appear from nowhere. You could kill every single deva in the world and they'd all just pop right back up again.
And, if the basic Dawn War conflict is imported into DS (as is rumoured to be the case), then there's no reason why deva shouldn't exist with exactly the same origin story as they have in the default setting. If you want to say that they have no memory of what they were before they took mortal form and that nobody alive today really believes they ever used to be 'angels', then that's cool. But there's no real reason to disallow them outright.
As a "good" race, they do clash with the setting. I'm not someone that had a problem with Aasimar in 3e (played one), I don't mind an inherently "good" race (I actually like the Deva more than the Aasimar). But aside from the Pyreen (who are almost extinct, overpowered, but still not very effective), "good" races don't fit Athas.
Considering the harsh nature of Athas and that evil Devas reincarnate as Rakshasas, even if the Devas don't get wiped out, they'd be replaced by Rakshasas.
Wiping out the Devas wouldn't be enough, since they would just reincarnate (though I can well imagine several of them going evil as a result). You'd have to desecrate the primal places where they assume physical form. Given the state the state Athas is in, I can imagine it would be a lot harder to keep such places secret. I would assume that Devas (if they exist at all on Athas) would be much more rare than in "standard" campaign settings. They would also have to be more secretivce and pragmatic; a direct crusade against the SKs will only get a lot of people killed, so a DS Deva would be more likely to be working out in the wastelands - - protecting villages from bandits, taking out slavers that prey on travelers, etc. - - or as part of a larger organization, such as the Veiled Alliance. I imagine quite a few Deva will be drawn to Tyr, but I doubt they'll advertise themselves as such - - freedom in Athas is too scarce ignore, but too fragile to count on lasting.
We do not know the "official" fluff particulars to Dark Sun tieflings, however.
I seem to recall hearing that they were the results of mutations from living in the Dead Lands. I don't recall where I heard it though.
The Dead Lands have not once been mentioned in the official previews. Tiefling origins are still left unknown. The July 19 preview (today) had nothing to say on it.
I can swear that's what I heard. Maybe I am mis-remembering someone's speculation as "word of god". I dunno.
Looking inside Bloodsand Arena for a mention to the origins of tieflings, I found this tidbit in the general description of the Ivory Triangle (emphasis mine):
“Its landscape includes the Great Ivory Plain, a salt flat that spans hundreds of miles; the Crescent Forest; the low-lying Mekillot Mountains; and the Beastbarrens, a cursed land that warps the bodies of desert predators.”
Either this name dates from a pre-Sunwarped Flats period within the design process, or it is a "named" Sunwarped Flats region, or something else entirely. I prefer the latter ;)
But that's its old place. Maybe they moved it, put it in a smarter position.
1.) Plausible: Re, the gods of Athas....
1-They still exist and are alarmed they've "lost contact" with the world
2-They still exist but don't care
3-They don't exist, having been either obliterated during their struggle with the Primordials or else been reduced to mere Vestiges, contactable only obliquely by certain Warlocks
...in any of the 3 cases, there is therefore a strong motivation for the servitors of the gods--the Devas--to investigate. In case 1, the Devas might be actively sent to investigate matters. In case 2, the Deva--who demonstrably care more about mortals than the gods do--might come of their own volition. In case 3, the Deva might themselves be hugely reduced in number--they were destroyed in great numbers during the war with the Primordials--but a few might still exist and want to investigate Athas' fate.
In any case, there might thus be Devas on Athas.
2.) Fraught: As I understand it, in terms of extraplanar travel, Athas is hard to get to/from, even in the new cosmology of 4E. The fey is fragmented and compartmentalized, the shadowdark is all screwed up and access to the Astral Sea is largely blocked by a "haze" caused by the destructive use of Defiling magic.
Hence, for an Astral being (i.e. a Deva) to get to Athas would be akin to swimming onto the beach in the Gulf Coast through the oil spill: You could do it, but it'd be rough and you'd look awful when you crawled ashore.
If Deva were to be allowed in Athas, I'd use some of the more "mysterious" backgrounds for them: I.e. missing lifetimes, can't remember original mission, has no idea what god they were originally in service to, etc. Chalk it up to memories lost during the transition to the Prime Material through the "pollution" surrounding Athas.
I've more or less considered reskinning Devas as Pyreen -- it removes the typical "shapeshifting" features of the Pyreen (except, of course, for the Druids, which I'd say are the most proliferate class for that race), but otherwise it is a pretty good fit. Redefine their appearance as that of the Pyreen, or "Peace-Bringers" as well, and that's basically my thoughts on them.
I don't know what the offical stance for Eladrin will be for 4e DS, but I was thinking of reskinning them to be Pyreen. They just strike me as being Peace-Bringer like in that they travel a different path above the other races. Devas fit this as well though.
I don't know what the offical stance for Eladrin will be for 4e DS, but I was thinking of reskinning them to be Pyreen. They just strike me as being Peace-Bringer like in that they travel a different path above the other races. Devas fit this as well though.
Eladrin are covered in this blog post. I'm fairly confident that Devas won't be officially covered as a race for Athas, and therefore are a good candidate for the Pyreen -- especially as the Devas and Pyreen are long-lived (or effectively immortal), with ancient knowledge, and both are basically "good" races. Strip out the Rakasha stuff, and the extra-planar connections, just make them another product of the Rebirth, just like what the Pyreen are.
Eladrin are covered in this blog post. I'm fairly confident that Devas won't be officially covered as a race for Athas, and therefore are a good candidate for the Pyreen -- especially as the Devas and Pyreen are long-lived (or effectively immortal), with ancient knowledge, and both are basically "good" races. Strip out the Rakasha stuff, and the extra-planar connections, just make them another product of the Rebirth, just like what the Pyreen are.
Good to know. Thanks for the link.
Don't know if I like what they did to fit the Eladrin though. Still think that I'm going to spin it that they're Pyreen for my future 4e DS games.
Better to place them as something that already existed than retro fit that they've always been around but just well hidden IMO.
Good to know. Thanks for the link.
Don't know if I like what they did to fit the Eladrin though. Still think that I'm going to spin it that they're Pyreen for my future 4e DS games.
Better to place them as something that already existed than retro fit that they've always been around but just well hidden IMO.
Well, to each their own. I see Dark Sun 4E as not the same Dark Sun as was in 2e & 3/3.5e. I think even the developers stated that it wasn't, likening it to the notion Marvel Comics had with their "Ultimate" line of comics -- taking the best, strongest themes and ideas from the existing Marvel universe, and blending them together to make a new universe entirely. Same basic thoughts for Dark Sun -- it is taking the best ideas and concepts from the existing Dark Sun materials, and blending them together to make a new Dark Sun -- not simply updating the existing Dark Sun setting to 4E rules. Personally, I think this is the best idea for the setting that has such a bizarre hodge-podge collection of contradictory setting materials out there.
...taking the best, strongest themes and ideas from the existing Marvel universe, and blending them together to make a new universe entirely. Same basic thoughts for Dark Sun -- it is taking the best ideas and concepts from the existing Dark Sun materials, and blending them together to make a new Dark Sun -- not simply updating the existing Dark Sun setting to 4E rules. Personally, I think this is the best idea for the setting that has such a bizarre hodge-podge collection of contradictory setting materials out there.
If we're going for the best and strongest, why have any race *other* than half-orc?
Well, to each their own. I see Dark Sun 4E as not the same Dark Sun as was in 2e & 3/3.5e. I think even the developers stated that it wasn't, likening it to the notion Marvel Comics had with their "Ultimate" line of comics -- taking the best, strongest themes and ideas from the existing Marvel universe, and blending them together to make a new universe entirely. Same basic thoughts for Dark Sun -- it is taking the best ideas and concepts from the existing Dark Sun materials, and blending them together to make a new Dark Sun -- not simply updating the existing Dark Sun setting to 4E rules. Personally, I think this is the best idea for the setting that has such a bizarre hodge-podge collection of contradictory setting materials out there.
Thats cool you're going that route. I can see likening the 4e DS changes to Marvel's Ultimate universe line. Other than some canonical inconsistencies, I've never had any real issue with the older setting's material. What didn't make sense I would try to fix and make it work for the purposes of my old DS games.
When my group and I start playing 4e DS it will be in the same continuum as the old 2e campaign.
If we're going for the best and strongest, why have any race *other* than half-orc?
Win.
I could definitely see the Tieflings and their demonic heritage having a place in Arthas, but they would probably either be a rare one-off or again, some fallen civilization, perhaps survivors of the Cleansing, or victims of a Sorcerer King's experimentations.
Deva's could go the same way -- maybe follow the eladrin path, where they become psionic instead of divinely focused, or even, arcane ... perhaps owning to and propagating preservation magic?
Haven't all the orcs, trolls, and gnolls and such been still been exterminated in the Cleansing, despite this new adaptation of the setting? I could definitely see the Half-orcs surviving as the remnant of that species, but only in a hybridized form. They weren't 'true' orcs and therefore weren't exterminated by Uyness of Waverly (Abalach-Re).
I could definitely see the Tieflings and their demonic heritage having a place in Arthas, but they would probably either be a rare one-off or again, some fallen civilization, perhaps survivors of the Cleansing, or victims of a Sorcerer King's experimentations.
Deva's could go the same way -- maybe follow the eladrin path, where they become psionic instead of divinely focused, or even, arcane ... perhaps owning to and propagating preservation magic?
I replace "Orc" with "Tarek", and get basically the same effect.
Me, I like the idea of making them a magical/alchemical creation like the Dray.
I replace "Orc" with "Tarek", and get basically the same effect.
I'm hoping they officially call Half-Orcs Tareks, but willing to do it on my own as needed. I thought it was a bit wierd that the original books had Tareks, Lasks, and Jozhal but didn't do much with them.
The standard Half-Orc racial entry neatly compensates for any lack of Orcs. According to their default fluff, Half-Orcs can be the result of breeding programs carried out millenia ago, or even be an entirely separate race taht has no blood ties to eitehr Orcs or humans. So Athasian Half-Orcs, gonig by the default 4e fluff and not even Dark Sun reflavoring, don't have to have anything to do with Orcs at all.
Me, I like the idea of making them a magical/alchemical creation like the Dray.
Verily. I find it hard to believe that if half-orcs couldn't survive the "harshening" of Athas, then ANY race could survive it.
And yes, remember that half-orcs aren't half-orcs any more, per se: They're a "unique creation" of one or more of the gods (Kord, Gruumsh or a mingling of Gruumsh and Corellon's blood), rather than a merely natural product of human/orc breeding.
Speaking-of, I have spent a long time writing out a concept of a large and powerful half-orc nation. I thought it was high time half-orcs stopped being relegated to border regions, frontiers and undesirable "remnant" lands. I imagine a half-orc society would be a bit like the Klingon Empire: 50% Viking, 50% samurai. Lots of taverns, lots of brawling, lots of weapons carried in plain site. But also a very strong clan/extended family structure, with a code of familial honor enhanced by bravery and diminished by cowardice or deceptiveness.
I replace "Orc" with "Tarek", and get basically the same effect.
I'm hoping they officially call Half-Orcs Tareks, but willing to do it on my own as needed. I thought it was a bit wierd that the original books had Tareks, Lasks, and Jozhal but didn't do much with them.
See, I view tareks as much closer to minotaurs. They are huge brutes who often charge, headstrong and fearless, in to battle. Tareks will often fight briefly after being killed or knocked unconscious. Seems like a perfect fit for the minotaur.
Half-orcs, I dunno. Some sort of wilderness, New Race types.
Extinct in the existing Dark Sun setting:
- Kobolds
- Ogres
- Trolls
- Orcs
- Gnomes
- Goblins
Goodbye, standard heroic tier monsters ...
Races that (had) have no (direct) prior existence:
- Tieflings
- Minotaurs
- Eladrin
- Deva
- Dragonborn
Secondary Races (which may or not be present on Athas):
- Centaur
- Gnolls
My concern with Half-Orcs, is and remains ... they're all dead. Extinct. The genocide of the Cleansing removed a number of what some might call "typical D&D races"
Extinct in the existing Dark Sun setting:
- Kobolds
- Ogres
- Trolls
- Orcs
- Gnomes
- Goblins
Goodbye, standard heroic tier monsters ...
Races that (had) have no (direct) prior existence:
- Tieflings
- Minotaurs
- Eladrin
- Deva
- Dragonborn
Secondary Races (which may or not be present on Athas):
- Centaur
- Gnolls
The ideas being put forth aren't suggesting to directly port these races into DS but a reskinning or re-envisioning of other 4e races that can be used to stat out existing DS creatures. This standard has already been officially established with the Goliath being used to represent the Half-Giant.
I would love to see half-orcs brought in as tareks. When I was younger and didn't care as much about lore, I'm pretty sure I just thought they were orcs.
Vor Rukoth.
I'm parsing it through it now, albeit a bit distractedly, but it seems feasible that with some clever reskinning and lore adjustment, this could prove to be a very interesting campaign to run on Athas. If the tiefling/sunwarped connection pans out (this is just a theory I've seen posited, nothing official), this could even be the aforementioned "lost city-state" in the Sunwarped Flats.
The city is already filled with common Athasian thematic elements: traders/slaves, obsidian/fire, wasted sandy streets, etc, etc. It even has remnants of Arkhosia (Dregoth's Dray?) and a planar gate to the Nine Hells (Dregoth's Gate?), if you wanted to go that route.
Admittedly, the PC jumping-off point, Coyote's Refuge (founded by halfling explorers) might have a different flavor on Athas (no pun intended), but that's part of the fun, right?