And i know that some people have access already, so i was hoping that someone can answer a simple question.
Have divine character been excluded from the campaign setting totally?
Previously there were elemental clerics, but i understand if that has become the Primal?
I might be able to squeeze houseruling them past the DM, but not holding onto any hope.
So they have been excluded? Well that sucks.
I might be able to squeeze houseruling them past the DM, but not holding onto any hope.
They're excluded from the setting by default, but whether something is present in a particular campaign is always, ultimately, up to the DM. And the DM should always take into account the wishes of his or her players.
However, divine classes just aren't necessary in 4th edition DarkSun. Unlike previous editions, divine characters don't have a monopoly on healing. Elemental priests can be shamans or druids, warlords can provide non-magical healing, etc. Divine classes were only shoehorned into DarkSun in previous editions because people needed access to healing magic, but their presence always felt 'wrong'.
What character concept are you aiming for, anyway? Maybe we can help you make it work as a non-divine class?
What character concept are you aiming for, anyway? Maybe we can help you make it work as a non-divine class?
I'm going to jump into this and toss out my info as well if you don't mind. I am not a past DS person, this is my first contact ever.
I have a party of 4 that want to convert to DS, but don't want to change too too much. I will convert gear, and switch to inherent bonuses, but over all they'd like to consider remining almost as is... we even considered a "land of the lost" style transfer to the DS world...or as I mentioned in a separate thread, a "stargate" like jump.
Anyway, right now I'm dealing with (all 10th lvl):
Warforged Guarding Fighter
Halfling Devoted Cleric
Shifter Predator Druid
Human Virtuous Paladin (Dragonmarked as well)
We are OK if they lose contact with their gods on the transfer, perhaps they have some minimal connection at times, not really positive. We still need to flesh things out.
As you can see we have two strong defenders, a strong healer and a good striker. This group has worked well for our style of play.
I'll take any general suggestions, not just on characters, but any toss outs on our "jump" to DS.
If they are actually coming to DS from another world that has gods via a portal or dimensional travel, then I see no problems with allowing them to stay exactly as they are. The rulebooks are pretty clear that once a divine character is invested with his divine powers, they don't come directly from the god himself, and are his to do with as he pleases. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't continue to function in Dark Sun, it's not like the setting actively retards divine power, it just doesn't have any gods of it's own, and hasn't for a very long time.
They would certainly be the only worshippers of their gods on DS, and would very probably be the only users of divine power. That would make them curiosities, but that's not a bad thing, since it can be used for plot hooks. the sorceror-kings would certainly be interested in anyone wielding a new power source that might upset the delicate balance of political and magical power. Perhaps they could try establishing the worship of their own gods in dark sun, which could form the plotline of several adventures.
So they have been excluded? Well that sucks.
I might be able to squeeze houseruling them past the DM, but not holding onto any hope.
They're excluded from the setting by default, but whether something is present in a particular campaign is always, ultimately, up to the DM. And the DM should always take into account the wishes of his or her players.
However, divine classes just aren't necessary in 4th edition DarkSun. Unlike previous editions, divine characters don't have a monopoly on healing. Elemental priests can be shamans or druids, warlords can provide non-magical healing, etc. Divine classes were only shoehorned into DarkSun in previous editions because people needed access to healing magic, but their presence always felt 'wrong'.
What character concept are you aiming for, anyway? Maybe we can help you make it work as a non-divine class?
Quoted from the 2e original Dark Sun Campaign Setting (non-revised) Page 20.
"The templar is a regimented priest dedicated to a single sorcerer-king. Such disciples work within the hierarchy of that particular sorcerer-king's clergy, advancing in power and position. A templar draws his magical energy through his sorcerer-king."
I don't agree, as templars in 2e were pretty much clerics who got their power from sorcerer-kings instead of a normal deity. Worshiping an element/primordial/sorcerer-king/natural spirit(maybe, but the spirits seem pretty much covered by the primal classes) should be on the table for a player who wants to play a divine class. It also would merit picking up a specific theme based on what you decided to worship. For example, say if you played a cleric who got his powers from a sorcerer-king- you would pick up the templar theme. If you worship the elements, pick up the elemental priest theme.
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Quoted from the 2e original Dark Sun Campaign Setting (non-revised) Page 20.
"The templar is a regimented priest dedicated to a single sorcerer-king. Such disciples work within the hierarchy of that particular sorcerer-king's clergy, advancing in power and position. A templar draws his magical energy through his sorcerer-king."
I don't agree, as templars in 2e were pretty much clerics who got their power from sorcerer-kings instead of a normal deity.
And now, they are warlocks who draw their arcane energy from a pact with their sorceror-king. Why are we suddenly discussing second edition DS?
So they have been excluded? Well that sucks.
I might be able to squeeze houseruling them past the DM, but not holding onto any hope.
Any of the Divine classes can be reflavored to be Elemental, so I don't see the real issue even if none of the options from non-Divine Sources will work for your character concept.
That being said, if it is the connection to the Divine that makes Divine characters appealing to you, then it falls upon you to explain how you came by your power, how it affects your character, and how you character being possibly the only Divine character remaining in the world will enchance your DMs game.
If your position is simply "I wanna play a Cleric," then yes, you will probably have a hard time convincing a "by the book" DM.
On the other hand, if you explain that Pelor, defeated in the Dawn War, but not destroyed, has spent the last milennia marshalling his energy, and he now has enough to invest in a mortal vessel. He has chosen your character as that vessel. He chose you because of your desire to do right, even at the cost of your own life. Your powers manifested when you saw the Shadow Wives of Nibenay and their guards converging upon a seemingly defenseless and innocent man. With no regard for your own safety, you jumped in to protect him, light searing any Shadow Wife who dared to attack the man you swore to protect.
Stunned by your assault, the Shadow Wives fell back to assess the situation, wherupon the victim cast a quick spell to shield the two of you from their eyes, and he urged you to come with him. He knew the magics you displayed were neither Arcane, Primal, or Psionic, and thought that whatever new magics you possessed might restore hope to the Veiled Alliance. You are the first Paladin of Pelor to be seen in a milennium, but maybe you won't be the last.
Two paragraphs, containing three background elements that could be fleshed out into stories appropriate to each tier of play. If you prove willing to help the DM do his job, you may find him more receptive to altering the background fluff so you can play the character you want.
If the party is from another world, they'll probably want to keep an eye on the warforged.
Ooooo, really good point. Aren't warforged partially made of metal? He's going to be valuable to all kinds of people, either because they want to kill him and scavenge his fantastically valuable metal bits, or because they want to learn how to make their own army of sentient magical automatons. Either way, his life is going to be interesting.
[
Quoted from the 2e original Dark Sun Campaign Setting (non-revised) Page 20.
"The templar is a regimented priest dedicated to a single sorcerer-king. Such disciples work within the hierarchy of that particular sorcerer-king's clergy, advancing in power and position. A templar draws his magical energy through his sorcerer-king."
I don't agree, as templars in 2e were pretty much clerics who got their power from sorcerer-kings instead of a normal deity.
And now, they are warlocks who draw their arcane energy from a pact with their sorceror-king. Why are we suddenly discussing second edition DS?
Err no they aren't. Warlocks with the sorcerer-king pact are not templars unless they have the theme as the wording of "most warlocks" does not mean "all" warlocks with the pact.
Quoted from page 94 of the 4e dark sun campaign setting
"Most warlocks of this pact are templars in a sorcerer-king's service. They are often trusted members of the templar hierarchy who are expected to command the soldiers, the agents or the underlings of a sorcerer-king. Thus the powers of the sorcerer-king pact aid allies and work well in melee. A sorcerer-king sometimes imparts his or her power to a promising protege or a privileged noble without making the recipient into a templar, although such instances are unusual."
As I sit with it, though, I have come to understand and value the decision. The flavor of the 4e Cleric isn't mutable enough to capture what an Elemental Priest of 2e was all about. The Shaman steps into this position nicely. I also think the Elemental Priest theme mechanic handles this well.
I do think though, that the Divine power source, as it is currently portrayed does not fit the feel of Dark Sun, and would need a reskinning. I could imagine changing all radiant powers to a elemental source of choice (Cold, Fire, Acid, Lightning, etc).
I do think there is still some wiggle room for a paladin to fit as a Templar of one of the Sorceror Kings, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that they should best be left out and the Templar theme should take over.
To Phobos - Part of the magic of Dark Sun, for me, was the entire experience the setting creates for a player. Rolling up three weathered and scarred characters with a background of slavery and violence who have never known anything more than this grim existence. Knowing that your DM wasn't going to hold back his punches (that's why you rolled three characters, after all). Heroism was all the more heroic cause you were fighting for a dead world and hopeless people. At the end of the day you didn't win immortality or shining castles, you won a flicker of hope on a dead world. Why fight for Athas if you are from somewhere else? You almost want to put it out of its misery instead. If you can just leave through planar magic, there isn't the same reason to care.
Dark sun was meant to be an immersive experience. There was little planar travel, and no visitors from outside worlds in 2e as part of this reason. This was part of its magic. I encourage you and your players to roll up new toons a play Dark Sun with all its majesty.
Almost anything you can come up with for a character can be incorporated into existing archetypes that Dark Sun allows for, only with a decidedly Athasian twist to them. One of the ways that Dark Sun was able to work its charm on players was that it forces you to step just outside of the comfort zone of familiarity you have with traditional game worlds, leaving you open to absorb just how differently things can and will be there.
Part of the beauty of Dark Sun when I ran through it years ago was that it allowed things to be new and surprising in a way that was difficult to achieve using traditional stories.
If it feels more natural, start with a traditional character template and then morph it as necessary into something that would fit in on Athas. It's a big asset to have your character feel like part of the world rather than an outsider to it, and ultimately helps you be a part of the campaign in a bigger way even if you aren't initially comfortable with it.
I'm by no means a by-the-book DM, but I probably wouldn't allow a lot of flexibility and would really encourage you to at least try the campaign specific ideas first for your own benefit... I think you'll be pleasantly surprised once you get into playing.
I really believe that the best way to approach Dark Sun is to forget what you already know about D&D and fantasy in general, and approach the campaign as a completely new idea or game.
Almost anything you can come up with for a character can be incorporated into existing archetypes that Dark Sun allows for, only with a decidedly Athasian twist to them. One of the ways that Dark Sun was able to work its charm on players was that it forces you to step just outside of the comfort zone of familiarity you have with traditional game worlds, leaving you open to absorb just how differently things can and will be there.
I completely agree, Faldarian. Dark Sun almost strong-armed you into getting out of your comfort zone. Approaching Dark Sun as if it's a new game entirely is definitely part of that classic enigmatic Dark Sun experience.
The elemental planes and the divine power source are a bit opposed. Divine power isn't just "I believe!" in 4e, it's connected to the gods, who fight against the elemental chaos. The powers and class abilities are built and named to reflect that. One might as well say "well, you don't need the arcane power source, just take the martial power source and replace the word 'martial' with 'arcane.'"
If one wants to incorporate the divine power source, some select malign gods could have survived.
Devils have relocated to the Shadowfell, they could be hiding Asmodeus. The Abyss is still present, so Tharizdun could be around (p. 161 mentions a "Temple of the Eye" in the Ivory Planes, that Nibenese templars work to keep everyone away from). Gruumsh could still be running around the astral sea, though he's probably just smashing things for fun instead of paying attention to the material plane (but could favor the occasional nomad tribe if they happen to be extremely vicious). Vecna managed to bust out of Ravenloft, he should be able to stay hidden, empowering a few hidden cults to further his goals. Under-Tyr features the occasional shrine to forgotten gods, perhaps one of them is watched by Torog?
The elemental planes and the divine power source are a bit opposed. Divine power isn't just "I believe!" in 4e, it's connected to the gods, who fight against the elemental chaos. The powers and class abilities are built and named to reflect that. One might as well say "well, you don't need the arcane power source, just take the martial power source and replace the word 'martial' with 'arcane.'"
If one wants to incorporate the divine power source, some select malign gods could have survived.
Devils have relocated to the Shadowfell, they could be hiding Asmodeus. The Abyss is still present, so Tharizdun could be around (p. 161 mentions a "Temple of the Eye" in the Ivory Planes, that Nibenese templars work to keep everyone away from). Gruumsh could still be running around the astral sea, though he's probably just smashing things for fun instead of paying attention to the material plane (but could favor the occasional nomad tribe if they happen to be extremely vicious). Vecna managed to bust out of Ravenloft, he should be able to stay hidden, empowering a few hidden cults to further his goals. Under-Tyr features the occasional shrine to forgotten gods, perhaps one of them is watched by Torog?
Only gods in Athas are Primordials, Demons, and Sorcerer Kings. It's states that gods are half-forgotten folk lore that everyone in modern Athas has heard during child hood. Just like the boogy man, and Santa Claus a god that cares about the toils of the mortal is ficitional to them. Those who have breached the Grey (aka Shadowfel) and reached the Astral Sea all they can see is ruins, where as the Elemental Chaos and Abyss is easier to reach. Only beings there are the primordials, Elementals and demons. Since connection to the elements is a primal thing, and Clerics were the only divine class that made a bit of sense in Dark Sun worship the Elements. Since that role has been taken up by both Druid and Shaman as well the Elemental Priest theme, there's no need for them by default. All divine classes just require a bit of refluffing to fit, replace gods with an element and bamn! Divine Classes in Dark Sun, just that they're more Primal than Divine.
*And most of the ones that accept the idea that the Abrahamic deity exist think He's just a misunderstanding of a Hindu god.
Also, Dark Sun's point is more "the world sucks." Not including the gods is a way to accomplish this, but giving the players a little hope by going "oh, look, one survived," just to have it come around and bite them because the only surviving gods were the nasty ones is a way (not the official way, but one that still fits within the current setting) to carry out "the world sucks." One of the main inspirations for Dark Sun is Conan the Barbarian, which is actually part of the Cthulhu Mythos.
The elemental planes and the divine power source are a bit opposed. Divine power isn't just "I believe!" in 4e, it's connected to the gods, who fight against the elemental chaos. The powers and class abilities are built and named to reflect that. One might as well say "well, you don't need the arcane power source, just take the martial power source and replace the word 'martial' with 'arcane.'"
If one wants to incorporate the divine power source, some select malign gods could have survived.
Devils have relocated to the Shadowfell, they could be hiding Asmodeus. The Abyss is still present, so Tharizdun could be around (p. 161 mentions a "Temple of the Eye" in the Ivory Planes, that Nibenese templars work to keep everyone away from). Gruumsh could still be running around the astral sea, though he's probably just smashing things for fun instead of paying attention to the material plane (but could favor the occasional nomad tribe if they happen to be extremely vicious). Vecna managed to bust out of Ravenloft, he should be able to stay hidden, empowering a few hidden cults to further his goals. Under-Tyr features the occasional shrine to forgotten gods, perhaps one of them is watched by Torog?
Only gods in Athas are Primordials, Demons, and Sorcerer Kings. It's states that gods are half-forgotten folk lore that everyone in modern Athas has heard during child hood. Just like the boogy man, and Santa Claus a god that cares about the toils of the mortal is ficitional to them. Those who have breached the Grey (aka Shadowfel) and reached the Astral Sea all they can see is ruins, where as the Elemental Chaos and Abyss is easier to reach. Only beings there are the primordials, Elementals and demons. Since connection to the elements is a primal thing, and Clerics were the only divine class that made a bit of sense in Dark Sun worship the Elements. Since that role has been taken up by both Druid and Shaman as well the Elemental Priest theme, there's no need for them by default. All divine classes just require a bit of refluffing to fit, replace gods with an element and bamn! Divine Classes in Dark Sun, just that they're more Primal than Divine.
Course, why do we even need anything but the Martial classes? If someone wants to play a shaman, they can just play a warlord and rename all their powers to sound primal. Someone wants to play a wizard, they can just play a ranger, and say their arrows are magic missles. Monk? Just call the rogue's backstab "Flurry of Blows." Or, everyone just play fighter and say you have different powers.
It states that the gods are forgotten, but that they might've been around at some point. It doesn't say "they were all completely wiped out, end of story, you can't use them in your home game or we will hunt you down and kill you" or else they wouldn't have included the little sidebar saying "although not official, here's a few suggestions for a home-game to incorporate the divine power source." (They also wouldn't have included a temple of Tharizdun on p. 161). One of those suggestions is "you're stuck and gonna die in the desert, you hear a voice that promises to save you in exchange for your devotion." I.e. "one of them was hiding."
I think, if you want to have priests in Dark Sun, you are missing the point completely. Dark Sun was never supposed to have any gods. Pick something else and move on!
I don't know about missing the point... Darksun clerics had a very strong background in 2e! You had the elemental wars between the generic elementals and the para-elementals. From memory they even had an elemental epic class.
But the main problem is it has severely limited my choices. I spend half my time DM'ing, and the other half I'm now forced to play the leader role. So of the 3 leader roles: I don't like what they have done with Psionics in 4e, so that rules out the Ardent. Another player is playing a shaman in the campaign i run, which leaves me with Warlord. I wanted the divine classes to be available so i had some choices with the character I am stuck playing.
I think, if you want to have priests in Dark Sun, you are missing the point completely. Dark Sun was never supposed to have any gods. Pick something else and move on!
I don't know about missing the point... Darksun clerics had a very strong background in 2e! You had the elemental wars between the generic elementals and the para-elementals. From memory they even had an elemental epic class.
But the main problem is it has severely limited my choices. I spend half my time DM'ing, and the other half I'm now forced to play the leader role. So of the 3 leader roles: I don't like what they have done with Psionics in 4e, so that rules out the Ardent. Another player is playing a shaman in the campaign i run, which leaves me with Warlord. I wanted the divine classes to be available so i had some choices with the character I am stuck playing.
2e clerics (even non-DS) =/= 4e clerics, though. 2e Clerics were defined by getting their power from any entity. 4e clerics have their power specifically connected to well defined gods (even the Runepriest uses power that is related to the gods, they created the runes, even if they don't actively grant that power).
The elemental aspect of the 2e cleric has been move- No, actually it hasn't been moved to the primal source, it moved with with the primal source and has stayed where it was in relation to it (or, the divine power source has been moved away from the elemental aspect, and the elemental aspect has stayed right where it was).
Also, just because there's a shaman in the other campaign doesn't mean there can't be one in the DS campaign. And you could play an Artificer, Bard, or Warlord (they are leaders). There are actually 6 leaders, not 3.
I did assume that Artificers were out because of the no Eberron rules in the encounters? Are Swordmage and Artificers available in Darksun?
Whoops forgot bard!
I did assume that Artificers were out because of the no Eberron rules in the encounters? Are Swordmage and Artificers available in Darksun?
Noone here's found any reason not to include it in regular games (2e did mention that there were some folks that joined the Veiled Alliance that weren't proper wizards, but just managed to get ahold of and get really good with a bunch of magic items). If you're playing at the official D&D Encounters (which I'm guessing not since you want to play a cleric?), I don't know what their stance would be, but if it's not, go for it.
As for swordmages, they'd make for good muscle templars (the 2e ones in one of the two box sets were a bit more martial than other cleric variants).
Course, why do we even need anything but the Martial classes? If someone wants to play a shaman, they can just play a warlord and rename all their powers to sound primal. Someone wants to play a wizard, they can just play a ranger, and say their arrows are magic missles. Monk? Just call the rogue's backstab "Flurry of Blows." Or, everyone just play fighter and say you have different powers.
Except there's no marital controller, and the fact that Arcane and Psionic magic have been part the setting. The only reason divine was included was for the Cleric, because of healing. 4e did away with Cleric's monoply on healing. Clerics were included in 2e, and they no longer worshipping gods so in 4e terms they switched from divine to primal. Since there's already a source for this, it's up to the DM to include Clerics for their roles are overlapped by the Shaman, which is the elemental cleric that deals with something that Druids also dealt with, Spirits. So Clerics at standard are un needed, it's up the individual DM to include them or not.
It states that the gods are forgotten, but that they might've been around at some point. It doesn't say "they were all completely wiped out, end of story, you can't use them in your home game or we will hunt you down and kill you" or else they wouldn't have included the little sidebar saying "although not official, here's a few suggestions for a home-game to incorporate the divine power source." (They also wouldn't have included a temple of Tharizdun on p. 161). One of those suggestions is "you're stuck and gonna die in the desert, you hear a voice that promises to save you in exchange for your devotion." I.e. "one of them was hiding."
They did exist, or the faith existed, yes. However speaking as of Age of Desert there's no gods and even if there was they're half-forgotten in hidden parts of the world where majority of the world doesn't know exist. In D&D dieties require the power of faith to survive, and in the "non canon" Prism Pentad there is indeed a god (I think) left, but he's only kept alive by some very devout undead souls that are dwindling to less than a handful. So you may be right, that's up to the DM to decide though, RAW has them as gone; wither they died or moved on to green passages all that's left is ruins. However as of current Athas (which I was speaking off), they don't exist (or hiding) which is the same as none existing imho.
2E Clerics were all elemental in nature - this has carried over to 4E as they have a primal power source.
I'm not sure why you would want a divine character. There are so many other options that suit the flavour of the world.
My take on it is this: Dark Sun is a world so bleak and doomed that the divine have abandoned it. All that is left are the almighty Dragon Kings, the Dragon Himself and the tiny specks of hope like the Veiled Alliance, the Pyreen and Oronis.
2E Clerics were all elemental in nature - this has carried over to 4E as they have a primal power source.
I'm not sure why you would want a divine character. There are so many other options that suit the flavour of the world.
This is true, especially with the Character Theme of the Elemental Priest, which allows you to be any class and still feel like an Elemental worshipper. However I see nothing wrong with allowing a cleric that's modified to fit, aka elemental worship with powers refluffed. For example, my character (which I was forced to play) is a Sun Cleric. I renamed my powers to suit the Sun motiff, like Lance of Faith is Sunbeam, Cause Fear is Solar Flare...etc.
Paladins would be a harder fit, Invokers would be impossible imho, but no so much for Rune Priests. Rune Priests could be part the dying order of mystical priests of Dwarven arts. I'd limit it to Dwarf and Mul (with Dwarf choice).
I'm not presently allowing divine classes (since I'm already doing the "including some random race" dance) but I'm a big fan of the "ancient relic" and "descendant of a long-forgotten demigod" methods.
Invoker: Elemental: Uses powers of the elements as his/her pantheon.
Paladin: Martial/Psionic: Uses powers that reflect his/her views of what's right or wrong.
Runepriest: Arcane: Uses powers that require arcane runes to cast.
Cleric: Unknown power source (could be Divine, could be something else): Uses powers from a source outside of Dark Sun. But the cleric did not go through the normal route of being invested by a ritual cast by other clerics.
Avenger: Martial/Psionic: Same as paladin, but more along the lines of avenging the fallen, not necessarily of spreading his views.
Think along these lines, the Paladin is the spreader of his views, while the Avenger is the policeman of his views. Though, some elements of both do overlap.
The problem I have with "Just stick it in another power source" is that Power Sources are more than just flavor. There are mechanical options, like feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies, that define them and the place that classes of a certain power source fit into that power source. Rebranding a class as Arcane, especially in Dark Sun, opens up a can of worms that you may not have thought about.
Elemental beings could also provide protection and favors to simple tribespeople in exchange for devotion. If leaving a sacrificial victim on the mountain crag every year keeps the stranger beasts from the village, the tribespeople will do it, even if they don't know its just a elemental or druid giving them protection.
Desert wanderers could worship totem spirits and sacred animals. The kind of religion left on Athas is very primal, perhaps some sort of psionic-mysticism in places. The only traditional god-worship is in the case of the Dragon Kings.
The problem I have with "Just stick it in another power source" is that Power Sources are more than just flavor. There are mechanical options, like feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies, that define them and the place that classes of a certain power source fit into that power source. Rebranding a class as Arcane, especially in Dark Sun, opens up a can of worms that you may not have thought about.
This can be avoided with a metagame ruling. Even though it has been "branded" Arcane, it still operates mechanically in the exact same manner it did before.
For example: the Runepriest only qualifies for divine feats, divine paragon paths, and still uses the divine keywords. But when we read them, we just mentally replace divine with arcane. And then we allows exceptions on a case-by-case basis (for instance, allowing defiling and defiling support).
Pretend that, instead of replacing "Divine" with "Arcane," you instead replaced it with "Arcane (formerly Divine)" or, say, "Elemental."
Whoops forgot bard!
I did assume that Artificers were out because of the no Eberron rules in the encounters? Are Swordmage and Artificers available in Darksun?
Yes. And artificers in Dark Sun (role-played as scavengers making use of what lost pieces of ancient technology they can find) make a whole lot more sense than any divine class...
For instance, the campaign guide mentions how the Astral Sea is in ruins and such. However it doesn't say that's the case for everywhere in the Astral Sea, there is the possibility that there still exists a divine spark out there somewhere in the infinity known as the Astral Sea.
One thought I had was to play a Deva Invoker or Avenger. However he's not channeling the power of his deity, he in fact IS the deity. He could have barely survived the war with the Primordials and only just regained enough power to take proper physical form. He's as weak as a mortal now, but can slowly build up his power and reclaim his proper godhood.
A background like that should actually fit in relatively painlessly in 4e Dark Sun. It also would present unique story possibilities as well for the DM.
Of course I wouldn't suggest doing something like this your first time playing Dark Sun. The first time you play it you if you ask me should go with classes and races that have a far more Athasian feel to them. But if you are an old hand with Dark Sun I can see something like this as a way to further explore the depths of the setting in new fun ways.
Whoops forgot bard!
I did assume that Artificers were out because of the no Eberron rules in the encounters? Are Swordmage and Artificers available in Darksun?
Yes. And artificers in Dark Sun (role-played as scavengers making use of what lost pieces of ancient technology they can find) make a whole lot more sense than any divine class...
Think of the Star Wars Jawas on the world of Tatooine. A perfect Dark Sun world if I ever saw one.
Runepriest should fit without Problems...
That was my thought as well so I was sad when I find out that couldn't use my runepriest from season one of Encounters. I had already changed his level and removed his magic items in preparation for tomorrow night then found out that it was wasted effort. 8o(
The Primal power source is for classes that derive their power from the elements and nature. If you want to use elemental powers: pick a Primal class.
Gods exist in Athas, divine beings do not. The Dragon of Tyr an omnipotent being, an arcane "god". All of the Sorcerer Kings are at various stages of the path to omnipotence. A divine being would cower at the feet of Broys like an uppity archmage would cower at the feet of the leader of a divine pantheon in another setting. Only Broys is a sadistic psychopath who would devour the lifeforce of the divine being until it was nothing but ash, just to see what it tasted like.
Except for the weakest of their number, the Sorcerer Kings don't need, want, or care about worship. In the event that they do need to elevate a being to serve their purposes, they invest them with the Arcane power source. The power source that in Athas collects its power from rendering life into nothingness and ash. Waving holy symobls around, going to an afterlife, and beliving in something has nothing to do with anything on Athas.
Does all that stop someone from playing a Divine character? No, not really. No more than it stops someone from putting peanut butter on their grilled cheese sandwhich because they like peanut butter and jelly sandwhiches. Then again, the inclusion of peanut butter in a grilled cheese sandwhich doesn't make much sense.
Divine classes don't make any sense in 4E Darksun.
The Primal power source is for classes that derive their power from the elements and nature. If you want to use elemental powers: pick a Primal class.
Gods exist in Athas, divine beings do not. The Dragon of Tyr an omnipotent being, an arcane "god". All of the Sorcerer Kings are at various stages of the path to omnipotence. A divine being would cower at the feet of Broys like an uppity archmage would cower at the feet of the leader of a divine pantheon in another setting. Only Broys is a sadistic psychopath who would devour the lifeforce of the divine being until it was nothing but ash, just to see what it tasted like.
Except for the weakest of their number, the Sorcerer Kings don't need, want, or care about worship. In the event that they do need to elevate a being to serve their purposes, they invest them with the Arcane power source. The power source that in Athas collects its power from rendering life into nothingness and ash. Waving holy symobls around, going to an afterlife, and beliving in something has nothing to do with anything on Athas.
Does all that stop someone from playing a Divine character? No, not really. No more than it stops someone from putting peanut butter on their grilled cheese sandwhich because they like peanut butter and jelly sandwhiches. Then again, the inclusion of peanut butter in a grilled cheese sandwhich doesn't make much sense.
You throw around the word omnipotent far too much.
Anyways, no, gods do NOT exist on Athas, at least not any longer. According to the fluff, they existed at one time but lost their war with the Primordials.
That said, my suggestion fits the 4e campaign settings fluff and thus is viable if you want a divine character. Just need to convince your DM.
The problem I have with "Just stick it in another power source" is that Power Sources are more than just flavor. There are mechanical options, like feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies, that define them and the place that classes of a certain power source fit into that power source. Rebranding a class as Arcane, especially in Dark Sun, opens up a can of worms that you may not have thought about.
This can be avoided with a metagame ruling. Even though it has been "branded" Arcane, it still operates mechanically in the exact same manner it did before.
For example: the Runepriest only qualifies for divine feats, divine paragon paths, and still uses the divine keywords. But when we read them, we just mentally replace divine with arcane. And then we allows exceptions on a case-by-case basis (for instance, allowing defiling and defiling support).
Pretend that, instead of replacing "Divine" with "Arcane," you instead replaced it with "Arcane (formerly Divine)" or, say, "Elemental."
This was what I was getting at about Runepriests having an arcane power source. They still will be divine in mechanics, but arcane in fluff. Also, my view as why Runepriests cannot be defilers, is that the nature of the "arcane" runes won't allow them to be.
This can be avoided with a metagame ruling. Even though it has been "branded" Arcane, it still operates mechanically in the exact same manner it did before.
For example: the Runepriest only qualifies for divine feats, divine paragon paths, and still uses the divine keywords. But when we read them, we just mentally replace divine with arcane. And then we allows exceptions on a case-by-case basis (for instance, allowing defiling and defiling support).
Pretend that, instead of replacing "Divine" with "Arcane," you instead replaced it with "Arcane (formerly Divine)" or, say, "Elemental."
Why not just *do* that instead of pretending? Change the name of the divine power source to something else. Develop some fluff for this new power source. Anything that refered to the divine power source now refers to this new power source. That leaves all the divine feats and mechanics in place, and also takes care of the problem of wether to give them defiling, while also not revising the Athasian backstory. Remove the gods, or refluff them as some other kind of powerful entities. Primordial beings would make sense, given the Athasian backstory. It's mentioned in the book that there are primordial cults. My only problem with this is that it makes the dvine fluff pretty much the warlock fluff with a different coat of paint.
there are all sorts of ways of working around, through, and over the absence of the gods in Athas. Here's an idea: Instead of there being no divine PCs, *everyone* or at least most, of the PCs in the party use the divine power source. Somehow or other, they are all in contact with the missing or dead gods of athas, perhaps through a lost holy site, artefact, or portal. The focus of the campaign is the re-establishment of the worship of the gods in Athas, part of which involves establishing a power base of new worshippers to provide enough faith-based "oomph" to resummon or resurrect the gods. The PCs could spend their time converting the common people and establishing secret cults to the old gods, avoiding the agents of the sorceror kings, who certainly would not be on board with this) and the primordial cults who want to keep the old gods gone. They could go on expeditions to locate ancient writings, holy sites, and artefacts that are left on athas, trying to discover how to re-establish the old pantheon. At the culmination of the campaign, the PCs attempt to recall or resurrect the gods, some of them becoming exarchs or even gods themselves, as the old gods "promote" them to fill out the pantheon. If they succeed, then as the campaign closes, a new day dawns over Athas in which faith is not dead and the world finally has hope for the future.
My PC comes from a tribal background, and his Primal beliefs will center on the idea that "life always finds a way" when given a chance. Athas isn't as dead as some would believe, and that the removal of Athas'/Life's enemies (defilers such as the SKs) will one day allow the world to recover. So, one might call him an Avenger of Athas, or a Primal Avenger (the name I've chosen).
Powers such as "Channel Divinity" become "Channel Athas", or whatnot. "Angelic Alacrity" becomes "Animalistic Alacrity", or what have you. I get to play the class I want to play, and I also get to play a primal warrior with rich, story-based reasons and goals for adventuring.
Brief tangent to follow:
Those readers particularly loyal to DS canon might groan to learn my PC is a shifter. Again, though a simple tweak to the fluff is all it took to create a character who fits well, in my opinion, into the world.
Shifters, in our DS, are a primarily tribal people whose origins lie in Primal magic. Their ancestors bound to themselves/joined with primal spirits to become what they are. Our shifters can breed with humans, elves and half-elves, and such unions always produce shifter progeny. While far from the most numerous people of Athas, they are common enough to be seen in very small numbers even within the walls of the City-states. Most shifters remain in the wilds of Athas, living in tribes both homogenous and mixed in make-up.
Canon? No. But, do they fit well into the savage, primal wilds of Athas? We think so.
For me, however, I like the exclusion of the divine. The gods are gone, and they're not coming back. There's no super-powerful overseer in the sky, waiting to bail you out when the going gets tough. If you want to survive, YOU have to take the baazrag by the horns and find a way to make it happen. The future is grim, the desert is deadly, and life is short. The only way you're going to make it is to take up your weapons and fight. In this case, you have 4 choices: you can use your body (Martial), your mind (Psionic), your ability to manipulate the laws of reality (Arcane), or the dying life force of the planet itself (Primal). In short, Dark Sun is about surviving using whatever tools you have, and not relying on someone else to take pity on you and give you a "get-out-of-jail-free" card.
Kind of like real life.
But that's just me. Your mileage may vary.
I never felt like clerics were shoe horned into 2nd Ed dark sun, even more so after "Dragon Kings" and "Earth, Air, Fire, Water" came out.
I totally get why people would be opposed to Divine Classes in DS, seeing as there are no Gods to become invested in.
But I like having the Divine Classes be available as a collection of powers and class features. I see no problem fluffing them as people who have power granted to them by their faith in something outside themselves, be it the elements or spirits or the Sorcerer Kings themselves. Elemental Priests are Shaman and Druids? Sure. And Clerics, too. A Templar is a devotee to a SK. Sounds like any Divine Class as well as Warlocks or anyone with the Templar theme.
My inclusion of Divine Classes has nothing to do with adding Gods into the setting, or trying to change the feel of Dark Sun. It has everything to do with providing a full set of mechanical options with which to create interesting characters.
I think that every one that is against there being a divine power source is way to focus on the "God's" aspect of it. Rather maybe in the case of a DS PC see it as more of a power source based off of "faith in something".
That's exactly what I'v been saying since learning divine magic wouldn't be supported in darksun. Eberron has the perfect solution to this issue and using their religious orders as examples, you can create some very awesome flavor to use for your games. Some of the eberron religions would work perfect for darksun with some minor rewrites. I'm in the middle of that very project.
Why not just *do* that instead of pretending?
That was my point, yes.
The players who actually like the world are less likely to try and cram the divine classes in it. I can see someone with love for clerics and no other campaigns to join to try and get in with his cleric PC, but in my eyes he should just boldly try something else. All the games will start feeling the same if everyone plays the same classes over and over anyway.
Even if you can fit anything there, you are better off without the off-world stuff.
Your mileage may vary, but I'd respect the people who like to play DS as it is and not force a divine PC in just because.
I can't help thinking that Athasians having faith in something goes against the setting feel. It seems that Athas is a grimdark place where faith is never rewarded.
It doesn't really go against the setting. In the prism pentad books, there is a very devoted Sun cleric as a major supporting cast memeber(and later his son who is also a Sun cleric is a major plot focus).
I can't help thinking that Athasians having faith in something goes against the setting feel. It seems that Athas is a grimdark place where faith is never rewarded.
There are numerous religious orders on Athas. The Oba is worshipped as a God in Gulg. Certainly she gives benefits to her worshippers by allowing them to live in what may seem like paradise compared to the rest of barren Athas. Similarly, Badna is worshipped as a god. Although, many suspect Badna doesn't actually exist. Faith is present on Athas in many ways. It may rarely be rewarded, but thats the case in real life as well.
I can't help thinking that Athasians having faith in something goes against the setting feel. It seems that Athas is a grimdark place where faith is never rewarded.
I agree with the heart of this statement.
I'm all for reskinning mechanics, as my previous post showed. Classes are just the crunchy framework upon which we build our characters (see my Primal Avenger). Adding divinely powered characters into Dark Sun, though, just feels wrong to me.
The idea that there are no goodly gods working toward a happy ending makes Dark Sun grim. You're on your own on Athas. Maybe primal spirits or elementals can become powerful allies, but they'll never be the feel-good patrons gods could be.
Goodly gods wouldn't have allowed the world to be destroyed by reckless mortals. They'd have had the power and will to prevent it. Sadly, Athas had and has no gods. This sets the tone for the entire setting, in my opinion.
Divine classes do not require gods. Both eberron and darksun show us how this can be done. Divine power can come from belief, faith and philosophy and it can also come from inner strength or the divine spark that every living creature carries.
Darksun isn't a setting where every single person is a faithless, hopeless individual with no concept of beliefs or philosophies. The setting was never like that. Religious orders have always existed in darksun, just in different forms.
Now, if someone views divine magic as something that doesn't belong or fit, that's on them and fine for their game. But I disagree. We have methods of including it that do not "force" it into the setting. Eberrons method works perfect and I suggest folks read up on it. Dragonlance also has a solid method with the power of the heart, where it is the divine spark within mortals and the divine spark of the world itself which people can draw upon.
You don't need a super santa clause figure sitting in a cloud kingdom in order to have divine classes in a setting. That's just what people tend to think of when they think of divine magic. Darksun is all about taking an idea and putting a unique spin on it and that is exactly what it did with divine magic in 2e. That is exactly what you can do in 4e, if you can get over the stereotypical FR divine orders. ( a general you and not a specific you)
For those who want divine magic to work, don't let the naysayers stop you. For those who don't, you have nothing to worry about. No one will force you to use divine characters in your games. So don't get butthurt if other people do use them in theirs.
If they learn about some Divine source at a later date... that's different.
I guess the trivial situation would be that Mr and Ms Adventurers stumble across a lost idol to a God that speaks to them. (Oronis? or some other "Good" and powerful being?). I'm thinking of ways to do with mechanically...
Here's my options:
1. At level X, Mr or Ms Adventurer re-creates a new character, using the Divine power source, with the same ability scores, feats, level, and selects "similar" powers. This is essentially the character "reborn" into a new class. For example, Mr Fighter Adventurer discovers Kurn, and is soon reborn as a Paladin of Kurn. (Note: if the character dies, a Divine Class Revanant might work well here!!)
2. Foxface suggested that powers from other classes be allowed. What if Mr Fighter, on level up, can select some appropriate powers, like a Paladin Class power, at the same level. This might have to be closely managed, incase the player tries to unbalance the game. I suppose this would be similar to Multiclass feats.
3. Paragon Multiclassing. I hate the mechanic, because it requires a player to waste WAY too many feats. But it IS an option. Or... provide "boons" to the player that allows them to swap powers without having to waste feats. Free feats...? Is this really a problem?
4. Loosen the Divine Paragon Paths requirements, so that any player can select these Paths. For example, Ms Rogue would be allowed to take any Avenger-related Paragon Path (although, none that have a prerequisite that requires her to have the Oath of Emnity Avenger class ability).
Divine classes do not require gods. Both eberron and darksun show us how this can be done. Divine power can come from belief, faith and philosophy and it can also come from inner strength or the divine spark that every living creature carries.
True. Eberron is my favorite setting, and its approach to the divine is one of the many reasons.
I already knew I wanted to play an Avenger in our next campaign. I had actually considered a reskinned Kalashtar as the race for my PC (with a racial backstory not all that different from that in the DSCS it turns out). This "power of belief" approach was one thing I'd considered. Eventually, I went another direction.
Darksun isn't a setting where every single person is a faithless, hopeless individual with no concept of beliefs or philosophies. The setting was never like that. Religious orders have always existed in darksun, just in different forms.
True, but have those religious orders had crusading Paladins or miracle performing clerics, as Eberron's Church of the Silver Flame does? This isn't a rhetorical question, as I wasn't around for earlier iterations of Dark Sun.
For those who want divine magic to work, don't let the naysayers stop you. For those who don't, you have nothing to worry about. No one will force you to use divine characters in your games. So don't get butthurt if other people do use them in theirs.
To each his own, indeed.
This will be our first Dark Sun campaign. Precisely because we want it to feel very different than Eberron, our favorite world, we will hold to the "no divine power source" ruling for our game. I would be surprised if we didn't have such a character down the road, though. As many divine characters as I play, I may very well turn out being that first guy to play one.
I agree with Duke that Eberron's approach to the divine power source, what might be termed "the power of faith" or "power of belief", would be the most seamless way to incorporate the divine power source into Dark Sun.
Invoker makes a great para-elemental Sun Cleric, chosing fire and radiant powers, just saying check it out.
Invoker makes a great para-elemental Sun Cleric, chosing fire and radiant powers, just saying check it out.
Yep.
One of my friends considered going with a reskinned Invoker. In the end, he went with the Wizard, for both mechanical and roleplaying reasons.
True, but have those religious orders had crusading Paladins or miracle performing clerics, as Eberron's Church of the Silver Flame does? This isn't a rhetorical question, as I wasn't around for earlier iterations of Dark Sun.
Darksun never had paladins before because the concept just didn't fit. Doing good for good's sake doesn't work in darksun where survival is priority and there are no real just laws to uphold. As for miracle working clerics, yeah, darksun's always had them. Healing in 2e was a serious thing (IMO) and clerics were usually valued because they were miracle workers.
As for crusades. Darksun had its own spin on crusading. Clerics would work to spread their own element and make war against opposing clerics. These "crusades" were on a much smaller scale, but you could think of them like that and it would work. The warbringer's champions (sorcerer kings) also carried out a type of crusade against druids, preservers and the rebirth races.
On Divine in Darksun.
IMO, it isn't about having "divine magic" in darksun. Personally, I don't care about the word "divine" in the least. The objective, at least for me, is to include the classes because that's what's important. A lot of players really like the powers and the way those classes play. My buddy loves the avenger. I mean completely. It's his favoritest character. I really like the cleric because he's very powerful. (steel to glass FTW) My other pal loves the paladin.
Personally, I'd rather play a primal character in darksun, than a divine one. But if even one of my players wants to use a divine character, I want to allow it. Last friday I started bloodsand arena (betrayal at alturak) and no one seemed to miss divine classes. So for now it's a non issue and I'm sure my players will want to run something a bit more darksun flavored. But eventually, someone will want to play that damn paladin in darksun and I'll let them. I'd rather rotate campaign settings but I'll give my players the opportunity they want.
Just call the divine power source elemental and go nuts. If a power has typed damage change it to the element you serve and enjoy. For divine channeling if it works on undead change it to elemental and otherwise reflavor or not allow as needed on idividual channeling choices.
Ultimate flexibility and brings back some old 2nd edness if you want those classes for your players.
2. Foxface suggested that powers from other classes be allowed. What if Mr Fighter, on level up, can select some appropriate powers, like a Paladin Class power, at the same level. This might have to be closely managed, incase the player tries to unbalance the game. I suppose this would be similar to Multiclass feats.
Did I? I don't think so. At least if that's what you got, you misread my intent. Not that your idea is inherently bad or anything.
No, my idea was more along the lines of "You are not your class". Much in the same way I could describe my Rogue (the class) as an "Assassin" (the job/title) or my Wizard (the class) as a "Sorcerer" (the job/title), I could describe my Cleric (the class) as a "Shaman" or a "Druid" or even the more generic "Priest".
I separate the class's abilities from its in-game fluff. A cleric is no more than a class with weapon and implement powers that focus on healing and buffing allies, and middling weapon and armor proficiencies. That it has the "Divine" keyword is no more than that: a keyword for the purposes of prerequisites.
I could easily see someone building a "Templar" using the Paladin as the class and refluffing the powers to suit the setting, for example. Or a Cleric for a Nature worshiping magic user (usually a Druid). Maybe I want a nature-priest who doesn't have a spirit companion or transform into animals? A Cleric with Melora related feats might be a good alternative, despite Melora not being in the setting.
At its core, this is not really any different from using Half-Orcs as Tareks, or pretending "Plate Armor" is the shell of giant desert bugs instead of forged metal.