Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Cyber-Dave Jan 22, 2011 17:54:10	So, there are no gods, or angels, in the planes of Athas. Do devils or demons still exist though? How about demon lords, such as Orcus? It occurred to me that I know next to nothing about the cosmology of Athas (though I know quite a bit about its prime plane).
#2 Style75 Jan 22, 2011 21:50:52	If you go strictly by the 4e book, then Athas should have Demons but no devils. There are strong connections between Athas and the Elemental Chaos which is where the Demons live. Devils, however, are from the Astral Sea which is either cut off from Athas or is totally abandonded (the wording in the DSCG seems a little vague on this point). Either way, devils from the Nine Hells should have no access to Athas. It does seem a little odd that neither demons nor devils were mentioned in any way in the DSCG. These are iconic D&D monsters with massive quantities of monsters in each camp. You think they'd at least mention them in some way, either to confirm or deny their presence.
#3 claytoniantomb Jan 23, 2011 5:59:01	Take another look at your 4e materials, because devils now reside in The Grey. Cannon.
#4 Duskweaver Jan 23, 2011 7:27:05	The BBEG in the novel City Under the Sand (surprisingly good for a D&D novel and well worth a read) is a demon.
#5 Style75 Jan 23, 2011 9:36:32	Take another look at your 4e materials, because devils now reside in The Grey. Cannon. I just checked and you are right, I must have missed that the first time through. It is, however, a single line (p. 17 of the DSCG) that is extremely vague: " Like the Lands Within the Winds, the Gray is home to strange and powerful creatures....  a race of devils that traveled to the Gray when the connection between their home plane and Athas withered." Like I said, that's pretty vague and doesn't really explain a lot. As it's worded, it seems to me that it wasn't all devils but rather a group of them. To me, that would imply that the main host of devils is not in the gray. There's no mention of the lords of the nine hells. Based on what's been written so far in 4e, they are unlikely to leave their realms so I don't think they would have gone to the gray and therefore are unlikely to come into a Dark Sun campaign. The quote above also brings up another thing I find confusing. This quote implies that some of the devils stayed behind in the astral sea. But further down on p. 17 your get this quote: " The few Athasians who have journeyed beyond the Gray into the depths of the Astral Sea...  have found little more than desolate ruins and terrible abominations. " So at some point the astral sea was abandoned. So if the main host of devils stayed behind, where did they go? It would be nice if WotC could clarify this a little.
#6 mhrynyk Jan 23, 2011 10:05:57	Another throwaway line on p. 17: "In the depths of the Elemental Chaos lies the Abyss, from which come the demons that plague Athas when they are summoned by reckless rituals or planar rifts." Basically, WotC has included loopholes to bring in whatever extraplanar entities you like.
#7 Ozmodious Jan 23, 2011 10:07:13	Cool thing about vage references is they can be expanded upon later and turned into something magnificent. You could throw in something like from the novel and your players can scream that there are no devils or demons in DS and then you can show the single line mentioning them. Love that element of suprise and shock that I can toss at the players now and again. I am purchasing the Manual to the PLanes and the planes below to get a better grasp of the areas myself for future reference.
#8 Style75 Jan 23, 2011 10:58:23	I am purchasing the Manual to the PLanes and the planes below to get a better grasp of the areas myself for future reference. You might also want to get "The Plane Above". There's some great stuff in there that would be usefull to paragon or epic level Dark Sun campaigns. On p. 108 in a section titled "Erishani" there's a description of the ruins of a dead god's dominion. I think this would be the perfect setting for a Dark Sun excursion beyond the gray. The PC's arrive in the astral sea hoping to find the missing gods but instead find this broken world full of monuments to dead deities. They have escaped one dead world only to find another. Epic!
#9 ian.thomson Jan 23, 2011 16:46:04	If going by 2e cosmology, the rest of the D&D universe(s) exist, and its easier to get in than out.  Devils and demons are still present. Going by 4e: Angels: The Dawn War still occured, the gods lost (p.208, "the gods of Athas were destroyed or driven away.")  If you want there to be absolutely no gods ever, just take the Dawn War and have the "gods" be really powerul angels (that's pretty much what they are from many theological perspectives, anyway).  I don't think they ever actually said "angels are extinct," just "the Astral sea is pretty much abandoned."  It is a reasonable guess they're extinct, but since angels aren't necessarily good in 4e, a bit of inspiration could be drawn from Gnosticism if one wants to go outside of canon.  Maybe some angels have gone insane without the gods, and they interfere in certain planar affairs for their own amusement, or perhaps serve as the Dragon's secret guard to make sure nothing from other planes interferes with his plans.  Maybe they guard abandoned temples, forcing anyone that wanders in to worship them as gods.  Still, if a canon position had to be drawn from the book, "angels are gone, like the gods" would work best with Occam's razor. Devils: 4e Athas definately has devils, though.  References to devils in the Grey, no matter how vague, do completely counter "If you go strictly by the 4e book, then Athas should have Demons but no devils."  The Grey is the main abode of devils now: their home plane was destroyed, the survivors are in the Grey.  The devils have access to the material plane even more than they do in other settings: The Grey is easier to access from Athas than the astral sea, and vice versa.  QED. Demons: Demons are refered to.  In 4e cosmology, you'd almost have to get rid of elementals to get rid of demons (they're just elementals twisted by the abyss).  They do maintain cults (p.16), and they're not exactly secret.  It's unknown what they think of this mortal wizard Borys, whether they want to ignore him, or work for, with, or against him (or if they're arguing about it).
#10 malkith13 Jan 26, 2011 16:04:52	iirc 2nd ed focused more on balor's and pit fiends leading the batezzu and tanari so i might consider them the top of the food chain in reguards to demons and devils, so no orcus or dispater, though i have a itch at the back of my brain that they were stated out as demi powers..  or some such  ::shrug:: point im trying to make is 2nd ed didnt have orcus or demogorgon in the monstrous compendium
#11 orionone Jan 26, 2011 16:43:49	I plan on using devils in my DS campaign at some point as something akin to wandering bands of really nasty gypsies. While they may be dislocated from home they are still devils with devil like needs (corruption, souls etc). Now they work on a smaller more clan like scale.     By the time the players reach levels ware devils become an appropriate threat I figure it will be about time to replace the elves anyway. The devils can fill the same role quite well. They have level appropriate items for sale, access to more esoteric and hidden knowledge and they cant be trusted. It all seems to fit the bill nicely. Finally I just happens to see Something Wicked this Way Comes again (an older movie but still really good and full of ideas just waiting to be looted) and thought that a traveling carnival of devils arriving in town to steal the souls of all the children. What could be more fun.
#12 orionone Jan 26, 2011 16:54:51	Oh and as for the Devil Lords they actually become more playable. Since most rarely left their massively protected cititals placed in the middle of their supremely dangerous level of Hell that also happens to be sandwiched between several other equally nasty levels of Hell. Getting to one was problematic ( but heroic) at best. Now if you want to use one they are no less deadly then before just more accessible. Now just pick your favored Devil Lord make him more desperate and feral and run with it. If your worried about the whys and warefores you can say that it was the one that got away before Hell hung its closed sign.
#13 Style75 Jan 26, 2011 20:22:58	You've got lots of great ideas Orionone, I hope you don't mind me stealing them for DS campaign. I especially like the idea of replacing elves with devils. That should work out quite well at paragon tier. I'm still debating where to take my campaign if it ever hits epic. I was thinking that by then Athas will seem pretty mundane so a trip to the gray or the abyss will be necessary. So it'll be devils or demons... which feels more Dark Sun to you?
#14 fromost_the_grimm_02 Jan 26, 2011 21:10:16	I prefer devils, as their scheming and controlling nature plays a fine accompaniment to the many flavours of Dark Sun.  That said though, your average Athasian wouldn't know the difference between a devil and a demon. In my campaign, when such a creature's physical shell is slain on Athas, it's soul/spirit is blocked from travelling back to it's native plane due to the Grey, and so it is instead destroyed forever.  This lends itself to those devils effectively trapped on Athas being starkly confronted by their own and sudden morality, and like the many other races (sic.) in the milieu that differ from their more traditional ilk, add a strong and unique flavour to the setting due to that difference.  Again, devils work better here as when faced with this morality, they are better equipped to scheme their way around it.  Such as creating empty material 'shells' from captured Athasian peoples, for use as host bodies for slain demonic spirits. It also means that the summoning of such creatures is more difficult than normal, as they instinctively fight the summons ... and that any such creatures summoned are very, very unhappy at having been forced to do so.  It also suggests an interesting new form of undead, with the homeless spirits of 'slain' devils manifesting themselves into spiritual, vengeful beings.
#15 beej_silver Jan 26, 2011 22:21:28	You've got lots of great ideas Orionone, I hope you don't mind me stealing them for DS campaign. I especially like the idea of replacing elves with devils. That should work out quite well at paragon tier. I'm still debating where to take my campaign if it ever hits epic. I was thinking that by then Athas will seem pretty mundane so a trip to the gray or the abyss will be necessary. So it'll be devils or demons... which feels more Dark Sun to you? I believe that if there's one material plane that can accomodate epic characters, it's going to be Athas. Sure, keeping them there will most likely disrupt the order of things (as they will most likely take down at least one SK - I'm looking at you, level 22 elite Tektuktitlay!), there is no shortage of epic threats there. It's more interesting (IMO) to bring demons and devils into Athas, rather than having the DS player characters march to other planes. Demons, being elementals in 4E, are easier to explain away and work with, while Orionone's devil ideas are indeed very well-thought out. Personally, I go with the fiendish remnant concept, kind of like the SW empire after the death of Palpatine (but before/after the Palpatine clones). They are still there, and they can cause trouble, but they're not a universal threat because Asmodeus,Demogorgon et al are not around. Are they dead? Or simply blocked off from Athas? I suppose it's up to the DM. A PC could even take the appropriate epic destiny to be the new demon lord/archduke. Hmm, that could be interesting in its own right... XD
#16 naxel Feb 01, 2011 9:09:58	Gods and angels all existed at some point in the distant past. It could be a good hook to introduce their ghastly, dying remnants in the dismal Astral Sea. Otherwise, pretty much all extra-planar entities are go - demons, devils, Far Realm aberrations, fey, whatever. The Grey is a strong barrier enveloping Athas, though, so no planar intrusion should be taken lightly (except for, perhaps, low-level demonic servants). This is almost crucial to the setting and its tenet that sorcerer-kings are in charge. If you have demon lords and Cthulhus running all over then that balance is broken pretty quickly
#17 khorne37 Feb 01, 2011 12:26:59	I am going to be putting in an ongoing story arc where the first PC's establish themselves as minor dieties maybe taking down a SK or twothis will happen after they find the gate to the astral sea under the black spine Mtns.  then in future campaigns they sponsor the PC's and divine classes will be open.