Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 GhostStepper Aug 16, 2010 13:28:08	I'm looking to convert the old 2e Dark Sun adventure "Dragon's Crown" to a heroic-tier 4e adventure path once i get the new Dark Sun books in-hand. Not to spoil anything, but most of the plot revolves around a psionic dampening field that is quickly spreading across Athas, messing with the sorceror kings' power, causing psionicists to lose access to psionics and causing animals to go crazy. The quest is mostly about finding out what is causing it and how to stop it. My issue is this: how should i handle the psionic dampening field in a 4e game? In the original adventure, the dampening field made the cost of psionic powers much higher, pretty stiflly screwing over psionicist characters; a mechanic that flies in the face of 4e's philosophy of sticking it to certain classes based on power source. A direct translation of the 2e mechanics would mean that characters with the psionic power source would be hosed while other characters would be alright. This isn't good. As far as i can see, some of my options are: – A direct mechanical translation. Augmenting psionic powers costs more power points, perhaps as much as double. This seems like a bad, bad, bad idea. – The field attacks Will and a successful hit on a characters means that their psionic power takes some kind of penalty. This also seems bad since it specifically screws psionic characters all the time. – The field affects everyone. In the original mod, the field drove animals insane with buzzing. Maybe this effects all creatures (including PCs) causing them penalties if the field hits their Will or the fail a Save or something. – The field severly penalizes psionics, as per the original adventure, but the PCs have some super special Deus Ex machina item that allows them to ignore the effect. This solves the problem of screwing over psionic characters but makes the field a non-issue for the party. Ultimately, what im looking for is some kind of mechanic that can effect everyone in the party for a good portion of the adventure, perhaps even for several encounters or days in a row while in the psionic field. I'd like something that can hit them with an annoying penalty but isnt necessarily ubiquitous and ideally provides some sort of strategic element (if you do X you risk Y penalty but perhaps a useful effect). Im almost tempted to do something similar to Arcane Defiling where they can get a surge of power for a penalty, but it seems too easily ignored. Any ideas on how to make this balanced and interesting without being oppressive and fun-killing?
#2 Pennarin Aug 16, 2010 14:32:35	Heroic PCs vs. Epic tier foes? How do you intend to handle that bit? PCs get a penalty to saves against powers deemed psionic-based by the DM, mostly psychic-dealing powers, or those with the fear or charm keywords. The reverse is possible - PCs getting a penalty to attack rolls when using said powers, and so would monsters.
#3 GhostStepper Aug 16, 2010 14:57:02	Heroic PCs vs. Epic tier foes? How do you intend to handle that bit? Since I'm going to have to redo everything with 4E statistics anyway, it seems simple enough to switch out high powered monsters and NPCs for lower level ones. The story, locations and overall structure will be unchanged, the baddies will just be lower level. If i think its important that the heroic tier party face something "epic" in scale, its not too hard to include specific items, allies, envronmental conditions or some other situation to make the fight winnable (entire silt skimmer with weapons vs. high level giants, for instance). PCs get a penalty to saves against powers deemed psionic-based by the DM, mostly psychic-dealing powers, or those with the fear or charm keywords. The reverse is possible - PCs getting a penalty to attack rolls when using said powers, and so would monsters. The problem with this is that once the players see that its going to be this way throughout much of the adventure, they are gonig to completely give up on running psionic characters.
#4 GMforPowergamers Aug 16, 2010 16:03:51	I would tell my players ahead of time not to play psionic characters... infact that makes an intresting DS game
#5 cnahumck Aug 16, 2010 16:18:19	In the original Dragon's Crown, there were psionic crystals that allowed for some sort of buffer from the effect.  If the effects are universal, and affect both players and monsters, then it shouldn't be that big of a deal.  If the players get something that cuts the penalties in half, this actually might be a benifit in the short run against other psionic users. Also, if you want to not discourage them let them play for a few levels before you introduce the effect, and they'll be more attached to their characters and more motivated to actually do something about it.  A party without psionics in a world where psionics is no longer useful has little reason to stop the effect.
#6 big_goon Aug 16, 2010 17:27:10	I haven't read Dragon's Crown, but I like the idea. If you impose a penalty for psionic characters, you might consider including an extra reward for these players. That might incite some players to try the road less travelled. Impose the Augment penalty (like it costs twice as many power points to augment), but then include some artefact/boon/etc that allows to one collect reserves or re-energise power points: Maybe the reward gives an at-will power: deal damage to a creature, drain its life, restore x power points. Potentially, players could then have "unlimited" power points since they could potentially restore their power points in the middle of combat. the reward allows one to trade a healing surge for a power point (or a few power points). The reward has a trigger that works well with one's role (a defender artefact that restores a power point each time you mark an opponent, a striker artefact that restores a power point when you hit vs non-AC defense, a controller artefact that restores a PP when an opponent ends an effect that a save can end, or a leader artefact that restores PP when an ally uses a uses a healing surge). Just some ideas... I like the idea of Psionic character getting harmed by the effect. In truth, they would have the most motivation to complete the quest, but they would have a hard time doing it.
#7 tindalosihound Aug 16, 2010 17:44:46	Those trained in Psionics should be able to resist the effect more than those who are untrained. In other words, rather than penalising one power source, go for something everyone has. Wild Talents. So something like: - When using a wild talent, the talent only has a 50% chance of working.
#8 claytoniantomb Aug 16, 2010 18:15:25	First have a flavorful "your psionic power seems to take more will than usual to use." I think it could be fine to have psionic PCs be a little screwed as long as you give out extra XP and scale encounters so they won't die. As time goes on, they lose access to power points. Or they have to spend minor actions to activate powers. Something simple.
#9 Tectuktitlay Aug 16, 2010 19:22:21	I get the idea, but I agree with the first responder.  Heroic tier vs epic foes?  I know you answered, but in all seriousness: The Order is meant to be THE top, top, top-end of psionic practitioners on the planet.  All members are what would in 4E be epic level.  These are supposed to be, hands down, the most potent non-advanced-being psionically powered folks out there.  IMHO, the Order consists entirely of epic-level psionic characters. So, Dragon's Crown really does seem to me to be an upper-paragon (at the earliest) or epic-tier adventure. That being said, I'd simply increase, progressively, the number of power points required to augment a power.  That's it.  Keep it simple.  Just tick off at the appropriate time how much it takes.  I'd also give psionic daily powers for power point using classes a power point cost at precisely the same rate.  So, at the same time it costs +1 PP to augment, it also costs 1 PP to use a daily at all.  Once that ticks to +2 PP to augment, dailies now cost 2 PPs as well.   Simple, and little to keep track of.  Just keep a huge die or number of counters handy, and stick it somewhere very visible on the table, and make a show of it when you increase the value.  Anyone holding a shard of the Psionatrix is completely immune to the power point increase. I would NOT overly punish either wild talent cantrips or unaugmented powers.  That is just too harsh, effectively taking out of combat entirely any and all psionic characters.  Thematic?  Perhaps.  But extraordinarily brutal (even by Dark Sun adventure standards ;) ).  Making them spend an extra minor action to use an unaugmented psionic power is plenty.  Then, a cantrip usually costs two minors (i.e. a move + minor), while an at-will attack power costs a standard + minor.
#10 GhostStepper Aug 16, 2010 21:10:36	Thanks for the replies. Im going about my day thinking about how i want to do this campaign and its good to have input. In the original Dragon's Crown, there were psionic crystals that allowed for some sort of buffer from the effect. If the effects are universal, and affect both players and monsters, then it shouldn't be that big of a deal. If the players get something that cuts the penalties in half, this actually might be a benifit in the short run against other psionic users. I'm liking the use of items (crystals) to do something to counter the effects but just lessening the penalty still hurts psionic characters and leaves martial, arcane, and primal ones untouched. If you impose a penalty for psionic characters, you might consider including an extra reward for these players. That might incite some players to try the road less travelled. Impose the Augment penalty (like it costs twice as many power points to augment), but then include some artefact/boon/etc that allows to one collect reserves or re-energise power points: Maybe the reward gives an at-will power: deal damage to a creature, drain its life, restore x power points. Potentially, players could then have "unlimited" power points since they could potentially restore their power points in the middle of combat. the reward allows one to trade a healing surge for a power point (or a few power points). The reward has a trigger that works well with one's role (a defender artefact that restores a power point each time you mark an opponent, a striker artefact that restores a power point when you hit vs non-AC defense, a controller artefact that restores a PP when an opponent ends an effect that a save can end, or a leader artefact that restores PP when an ally uses a uses a healing surge). Just some ideas... I like the idea of Psionic character getting harmed by the effect. In truth, they would have the most motivation to complete the quest, but they would have a hard time doing it. Hmm. The idea i like the most is for some way to have psionic characters trade a healing surge for a power point. It definitely hurts some psionic characters a lot more than others though. Psions will be hurting. The idea of giving psionic characters a penalty and an extra reward is interesting to me. I keep thinking that the PCs get the special crystals that let them use their psi powers in the dampening field normally, but with a sort of chaotic "wild magic" effect whenever they use power points. Random effects that may be hurtful or beneficial. I get the idea, but I agree with the first responder. Heroic tier vs epic foes? I know you answered, but in all seriousness: The Order is meant to be THE top, top, top-end of psionic practitioners on the planet. All members are what would in 4E be epic level. These are supposed to be, hands down, the most potent non-advanced-being psionically powered folks out there. IMHO, the Order consists entirely of epic-level psionic characters. My players have never played this adventure though, so they wouldn't really notice if i swapped out the Order for the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. ;) I literally only have to swap the name and no one will be the wiser. IDK. It seems like a pretty easy detail to swap out when you have to redo all the mechanics for the all of the encounters anyway. I'm already radically altering the basic concept of what the Psionatrix is (hint: its not an artifact), and i have no problem changing the main villain to a rogue villichi or a cabal of shardminds or some other level-appropriate challenge. That being said, I'd simply increase, progressively, the number of power points required to augment a power. That's it. Keep it simple. If the party consists of a Shaman, a Fighter and a Wizard though then the whole adventure become much less urgent. The more i think about it, the more im starting to think that i really need to change the fundamental function of the psionatrix field in this adventure. Hampering characters for coming from a certain power source really, really seems to fly in the face of 4e philosophy and i can imagine that with this particular group of players that once they realize that psionic characters are going to be singled out for penalties, they simply are going to abandon psionic classes/characters altogether. At this point i'm considering doing something that somehow affects all characters but can be overcome or countered temporarily so they can feel the need to end of the effects but aren't constantly discouraged by them to the point of frustration. On the other hand, im also considering some kind of effect that functions like "wild magic/psionics" where psionic powers can have chaotic effects that may be helpful or hurtful, but ultimately won't just screw over psi characters while leaving all the other power sources unscathed.
#11 Pennarin Aug 17, 2010 0:13:20	Hmm, you can swap out the Order for the Brotherhood of the Mind, which runs a monastery high in the Makla mountains near Urik, founded half a millennium ago by a former Nibenese noble by the name of Liumakh, now long since turned into a ghost-like undead.  He and his followers have the stated goal of bringing down the Shadow King. Blanketing the Tyr Region with a psionic dampening field would help their plans. The leader was level 17. Check out 2e's The Will and the Way for info on them, including a plan of the Sanctuary of the Brotherhood.
#12 GhostStepper Aug 17, 2010 12:41:00	The Brotherhood seems like an appropriate swap-out for the Order.
#13 blokeski Aug 18, 2010 2:21:19	How are you going to make the whole Brotherhood killing Korgunarrd make sense?  They kill him because he is not psionically pure (being a 2E Avangion he was a 20th level Wizard/Psionic).  Under the new rules he is just an arcane character, hence they would have little reason to kill him.
#14 bruul Aug 18, 2010 2:34:52	Ghost Stepper- I also plan on running Dragons Crown in 4e.  I've run the adventure 3 times already in both 2e and 3.5.  My first thought about it was also how the heck am I gonna get that psionitrix field to work. what I came up with: - Unshielded users take a -2 with all psionic attacks, increase to -5 at stage two.    (there were two phases of the field it gets more intense during the final chapter)  -With lesser shard reduce penalties by half, greater no penalties.   (there are two types of shards in the adventure, they only have to get through the first adventure before Korgunard gives them lesser shards)  I didn't think having to get through one part with a -2 penalty was that big of deal.  For most the adventure the party is immune due to shards. I wrote that last year, almost exactly. Now when I think about it there are even more and better options. -It could be treated like a disease, with the track mechanic on how bad the field affects a psionic user.  Basically during the adventure any psionic creature would have the "psionitrix disease" until the PCs win in the end effectively curing the whole planet at once.  The shards would just add a bonus to check to keep the effect to left most of the disease track each day.  Failed checks would cause you more pain and have less power points after each rest and more crazy if a thri-kreen. OR -It could be an immediate reaction attack that is made by the psionitrix field anytime someone uses power points.  Like a hazard or zone.  If it hits they take some psychic damage and possibly daze (stunned during the phase two portion near the end).  The shards would increase Will defense and give alittle psychic resistance against this effect.  They could also avoid the effect by not augmenting. I really look forward to converting it.  I'm also running Arcane shadows as it introduces Korgunard and Deverendi's valley.
#15 bruul Aug 18, 2010 2:40:23	How are you going to make the whole Brotherhood killing Korgunarrd make sense?  They kill him because he is not psionically pure (being a 2E Avangion he was a 20th level Wizard/Psionic).  Under the new rules he is just an arcane character, hence they would have little reason to kill him. I thought on this too.  My answer is not kill him but they still would want him out of the picture.  I say that they couldn't kill him(the party has to face these guys after all) but were able to send him to the astral sea or imprision him deep under the surface.  Temporal stasis trap?  Something where I can have the next adventure to be to find him and rescue him after Dragons Crown is over.  There will already be a precedent set in Arcane Shadows that Korgunard was able to communicate through dreams to the PC's before.
#16 GhostStepper Aug 18, 2010 14:56:30	How are you going to make the whole Brotherhood killing Korgunarrd make sense? They kill him because he is not psionically pure (being a 2E Avangion he was a 20th level Wizard/Psionic). Under the new rules he is just an arcane character, hence they would have little reason to kill him. Honestly, i dont really know anything about the Brotherhood and i don't even know if thats the organization im gonig to use. Coming up with a reason for group X wanting to kill korgunard seems pretty simple though: he's do-gooder in a world of ruthlessness. Everyone with a nefarious plot wants this guy dead because he's always sending folks like the PCs to mess up their plots. This explaination works seemlessly with any evil organazation or any group that has even one corrupt member (you foiled my plots for the last time, avangion!). -It could be treated like a disease, with the track mechanic on how bad the field affects a psionic user. Basically during the adventure any psionic creature would have the "psionitrix disease" until the PCs win in the end effectively curing the whole planet at once. The shards would just add a bonus to check to keep the effect to left most of the disease track each day. Failed checks would cause you more pain and have less power points after each rest and more crazy if a thri-kreen. Yes! i like this. It is a constant threat to the PCs, giving them motivation to fix the problem, but doesn't constantly frustrated them with penalties. I think im going to look at the spellplague rules in the FR book too. Im thinking that no matter how i handle this i may want the psionatrix field to have wacky interactions with arcane magic, causing dangerous wild magic areas. I thought on this too. My answer is not kill him but they still would want him out of the picture. I say that they couldn't kill him(the party has to face these guys after all) but were able to send him to the astral sea or imprision him deep under the surface. Temporal stasis trap? Something where I can have the next adventure to be to find him and rescue him after Dragons Crown is over. There will already be a precedent set in Arcane Shadows that Korgunard was able to communicate through dreams to the PC's before. Trap him in the Black perhaps? In any case, Korgunard is going to be significantly weakened by the begining of this adventure because of the effects of the previous plotline. This not only provides a way for him to be killed by enemies the group can handle but gives a convenient excuse for why a non-psionic, epic level 4e npc is having a heroic-tier party run errands for him.
#17 Pennarin Aug 18, 2010 18:32:06	At this point I suggest to pick through Dragon's Crown for ideas and overall plot, but drop the details. Korgunard no longer is appropriate at this point, nor is the Order, nor the idea of blanketing the world with a psionic effect, if epic-tier is not involved.
#18 Duke5150 Aug 18, 2010 18:59:43	My only suggestion is that you forget about a direct conversion and instead build the adventure from the ground up using what 4e offers. You will end up with a better result. When it comes to members of the order, Make them n+6 above the pcs and its fine. It's about flavor, which is what the organization is. Flavor. Mechanically, the members of the order were tough bosses in the adventure, but beatable. So they need to be tough bosses but beatable in the 4e version. (by n+6, I mean six levels higher than the pcs as individual monsters. pg 57 of the dmg explains more) Build the Psionatrix as you would any artifact, but have it affect everyone, not just psionic users. Psionic users just get it the worst. Psionic augments cost 1 extra PP, monsters gain a +1 to save against effects cause by psionic pc powers. Psionic powers deal 1 less damage. Minor effects that add up. Nothing major. Also, don't have this affect anyone unless the players take the adventure hook and decide to play the adventure. They hear stories and encounter npcs and monsters suffering effects of the psionatrix, but it only shows through story and flavor. Not mechanics, until the players begin the adventure. Also, use skill checks and skill challenges to overcome those negative effects for a short time, or to postpone them. Give the players a chance to avoid them completely or lessen the effects. But make sure that everyone has the chance to suffer, not just psionic characters and give them adventure hooks, patrons who are willing to hire them to solve the problem. As I said, build the adventure, don't convert it.
#19 Pennarin Aug 18, 2010 19:44:41	I'm making a 4e DS adventure, and for once I can say I didn't draw from existing D&D and DS adventures. Glad I didn't inspire myself from anything. Everyone should try it. Take notes when you get a fleeting idea, all put together you get many adventures, each with several of those ideas appropriate for them. At least that's how I built it.
#20 EhtoZed Aug 30, 2010 11:38:44	I'm looking to convert the old 2e Dark Sun adventure "Dragon's Crown" to a heroic-tier 4e adventure path once i get the new Dark Sun books in-hand. Not to spoil anything, but most of the plot revolves around a psionic dampening field that is quickly spreading across Athas, messing with the sorceror kings' power, causing psionicists to lose access to psionics and causing animals to go crazy. The quest is mostly about finding out what is causing it and how to stop it. My issue is this: how should i handle the psionic dampening field in a 4e game? In the original adventure, the dampening field made the cost of psionic powers much higher, pretty stiflly screwing over psionicist characters; a mechanic that flies in the face of 4e's philosophy of sticking it to certain classes based on power source. A direct translation of the 2e mechanics would mean that characters with the psionic power source would be hosed while other characters would be alright. This isn't good. As far as i can see, some of my options are: – A direct mechanical translation. Augmenting psionic powers costs more power points, perhaps as much as double. This seems like a bad, bad, bad idea. – The field attacks Will and a successful hit on a characters means that their psionic power takes some kind of penalty. This also seems bad since it specifically screws psionic characters all the time. – The field affects everyone. In the original mod, the field drove animals insane with buzzing. Maybe this effects all creatures (including PCs) causing them penalties if the field hits their Will or the fail a Save or something. – The field severly penalizes psionics, as per the original adventure, but the PCs have some super special Deus Ex machina item that allows them to ignore the effect. This solves the problem of screwing over psionic characters but makes the field a non-issue for the party. Ultimately, what im looking for is some kind of mechanic that can effect everyone in the party for a good portion of the adventure, perhaps even for several encounters or days in a row while in the psionic field. I'd like something that can hit them with an annoying penalty but isnt necessarily ubiquitous and ideally provides some sort of strategic element (if you do X you risk Y penalty but perhaps a useful effect). Im almost tempted to do something similar to Arcane Defiling where they can get a surge of power for a penalty, but it seems too easily ignored. Any ideas on how to make this balanced and interesting without being oppressive and fun-killing? So what did you finally decide on using? I'm hoping to run this adventure too. Personally I think making the effect a sort of disease is on of the best options.