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Drugs on Athas

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
krosszer0
Jan 09, 2011 23:59:40 So I just started my Dark Sun campaign and one of my players decided that his character is addicted to a drug. We came up with a quick, vague description for the drug (called "spice"), but I was wondering if there is any previous published material that mentions Athasian drugs, for reference.

Thanks in advance for any help.
#2
pitchblende
Jan 10, 2011 3:00:57 Spice... I don't suppose he means melange, does he? :P

I don't think Wizards would too likely have published much about drug use in Athas, but then again, I'm not super well versed in it either. It shouldn't be too hard to work something in, though.
#3
onionkid
Jan 10, 2011 3:22:52 Hemp seems to be a staple crop in a few city states so some manner of mutant, spiny cannabis is probably also prevalent. It is Athas after all, everything has spines.

Speaking of which, the weirder a drug is the more it fits Athas. Maybe a certain insect, when dried and ground up, can be smoked. Remember the Agony Beetle from 2nd edition? Perhaps it's agony when alive but when properly killed and prepared, it's the ecstacy beetle!

Maybe not all "drugs" are ingested. The Hurrum beetle may be similar to a drug. A noble might sit in a room filled with them and just space out on their mind-dulling melody.

In my campaign I have "Semuta" a root that resembles ginger and when chewed gives off an effect like morphine. Healers use it, but most Athasians buy it for recreational purposes. It's named after a drug from Dune.

Also nicked from Dune is "Verite". A salt-based drug found in certain salt flats. This drug is an upper, and is ingested by letting the little rock of salt dissolve on your tongue. Gladiators both humanoid and animal usually have Verite in their system.
#4
Kye_Tyrad
Jan 10, 2011 9:28:29 A while back we created an Athasian Herbology book that could be useful for many ideas from herbal
remedies to other creative uses!!

I have to update this to a more 4e friendly version, but it still gives a decent background and use for each herb. Any additions or edits that you want to suggest would be excellent.
#5
DontEatRawHagis
Jan 10, 2011 14:06:04 Isn't there an lake thats filled with people who are high? I don't have any books with me, you'd think that a world based on life being extremely grim there would be some anti-depressants.
#6
fromost_the_grimm_02
Jan 10, 2011 19:44:02 You, Sir, need to check out athas.org's Athasian Emporium.

Please open your textbooks, and turn to Chapter 2: Adventuring Gear - Drugs.
#7
omnijake
Jan 13, 2011 3:04:49 Being mostly a desert world I would model the most common drug after Peyote. A cactus would be excess able enough to provide temptation to any traveler, while a poisonous core would deter most--this would fit in with the battle against the elements theme that is so highly prized in a Dark Sun campaign. Also, it could have numerous other benefits and penalties such as adding temp. hp because the character is so blitzed they don't realize they are being hurt, and imposing a negative to checks against sun sickness because the character is less likely to take precaution against the sun while intoxicated.
#8
tashalatora
Jan 13, 2011 14:28:28 This being Athas, I would definitely think there would be long term downsides and having to deal with evil people who want to control the contraband trade. I'm guessing not to many could partake in a highly intoxicating or escapist substance without being taken advantage of in such a harsh world.

On a side note: I ran a game as a teenager where all the players wanted to be elves... They started a small tribe and had lots of fun trying to sneak contraband (spell components, poison and drugs) in and out of various city-states and fighting between the cities. The adventures really built themselves.
#9
BRJN
Jan 15, 2011 21:38:35 Frank Herbert's The Dosadi Experiment describes a world that is mostly poisonous desert (gee, that sounds familiar) and which has an astonishing number of intoxicating substances available. You might get some useful ideas from it.

As suggested above, any drug addict on Athas is basically walking around with a neon sign on his forehead, "I am easily manipulated." or "Please yank my chain."

Hmmm, how to keep a valuable slave from trying to escape...
#10
Silverblade_The_Enchanter
Jan 17, 2011 7:17:09 Well, drugs have often been in my campaigns for variosu reasons

1) great way to control slaves and the poor by leaders with no morals, just like alcohol etc today

2) great trade value, small volume & light, high retail value just like spices, so for a merchant, they can eaisly be added to their inventory

3) genuine medicinal use, remember even in our world, most illegal drugs do have good legitimate uses, heroin is still used legally in Britain as a prescribed painkiller, fyi, as an example.
With little control as we know it on Athas, street doctors, alchemists and such would be common place, dealing in things both legitimately and shady,see how such exist and work in the developing world.

Which was part of a campaign I just ran. An alhecmist/physician created legitimate, good medicianal drug, but others wanted it for bad uses, as it boosted Endurcance checks and was slowly addictive, thus giving it to workers/gladiators etc, they coudl work harder and take while before they were addicted so less to "worry them"
in game mehcnaic was +2 bonus to Endurance checks per tier, but cost 1 healing surge (wouldn't kill though, cna't reduce below 1 unless you massively overdosed)
the physician made it to help folk overcome certain diseases, by boosting their Endurance checks as game mechanic , mode of operation was to boost the metabolism into overdrive but much safer than and in different way than most stimulants do

4) One PC in a game ages ago was a drug dealer, hey, some heroes are criminals and all he did was supply the equivalent of Athasian "weed" and some medicines, a petty crook , not a "mafioso" ;)

5) In my games, alchemy is a MAJOR thing on Athas, I can't stand way Athasians are assume dot be dumb, look, the average perosn has little access to collected knowledge, but, in our world millenia of necessity and craft created or discovered many of the medicines and chemicals we still use to this day.
AND in our world there's no magic or psionics (well...depends on who you talk to, hehe :p)
So my Athas, has dozens of alchemists in each city producing things from Alechmists Fire, to magical healing potions, many working for the noble or trading familes
#11
jrgumby
Jan 18, 2011 12:24:22 I never felt like 'base' alchemy was a problem in Athas, and there are numerous example items in the source book... Also, if you're running around with magical alchemists and no psions, it's not the published world. It's your homebrew of Athas.

The real issue is that some of the original potions etc just straight up break the environment, and anything overtly 'magical' is out of their depth. That doesn't mean you can't have wise women how know that certain poltices made from a cactus can help heal a wound, or even that if you grind up a beetle gland and smoke it it will help protect you from mental psionic manipulation.

In a similar vein, there are probably dozens of medicinal herbs you can take recreationally, and a handful with little other use.

The real trouble in my experience is that a character that starts with 'I'm hooked on pills' often has no other depth to the character and will try repeatedly to make him getting a stash and then insisting on roleplaying out a trip the focus of entire sessions.

If you know the player, he is mature, he has a good justification for it (such as the 'my master got me hooked') that adds to the character, and you can trust him to be reasonable about it then I think it's perfectly acceptable. Have it occasionally become plot-relevant, but otherwise it's more in the background (you spend 10 gp, you have 5 doses, you smoke one every evening before bed so you can sleep).

One other thing I'd do personally is limit the actual in-game effect of addiction and drug use. If you give it mechanical import, you are in essence telling that character a major part of the game for him is getting his supply.

If you do give it mechanical effects keep them mostly small and easy to mitigate/ignore for at least a few days. A Disease track with a level-appropriate endurance DC and minor effects would work. Also give the character a way to RP/game out of it that makes them feel like they struggled through.

Something like: Every day you don't take a dose of X drug, you must check for Withdrawal progression.
1- Your skin crawls and you shiver randomly. It's creepy. -1 to Diplomacy checks.
2- You feel quesy and nauseous, and begin to sweat. -2 to Sun Sickness checks.
3- Severe Withdrawal: your mind is consumed with obtaining a dose, and our reflexes are blunted. -2 to Will Defense, -2 to Initiative. For every day you remain in Severe Withdrawal the DC decreases by 1 or 2.

However, if you don't know the player, or if you know he's sort of a goofball that likes to try and siderail things, don't go there. It's a frustrating mess waiting to happen. In general I discourage such things, because unless it's a good roleplayer they take that one aspect and it's all there is to the character. It takes significantly more maturity and work to roleplay an otherwise good character with a vice he can't shake than a one dimensional drug nut. If he's new to your games, I'd say you might get a feel for his ability to do so by the story he gave you. (If his character was literally "I want to be a Mul Fighter ex-gladiator who's addicted to drugs" that is a warning that the only RP he intends to do is drugseeking).

When it comes to immature players and drugs, just say no.
#12
Pyrate_Jib
Jan 18, 2011 13:04:20 I too am curious as to how in game terms the drugs would work. Drugs would have to provide some sort of upside or they would not be used.
#13
jrgumby
Jan 19, 2011 15:09:09
Personally I think adding a mechanical upside to recreational drugs is a very bad idea.

I have never heard of anyone snorting cocaine for its health benefits.

For one thing it encourages players to seek out and use them, for another, most recreational drugs are used to alter or inhibit normal consciousness.

There really isn't a mechanical way to stick "you fell all warm and floaty and sounds have color now".

If anything, attach very mild penalties to drugs when used. Things like slightly decreased initiative or reflex or will defense would all make sense for most substances.

If you want drugs with benificial mechanical effects, they are essentially relabeled alchemy items.
#14
Pyrate_Jib
Jan 20, 2011 10:05:03

Personally I think adding a mechanical upside to recreational drugs is a very bad idea.

I have never heard of anyone snorting cocaine for its health benefits.

For one thing it encourages players to seek out and use them, for another, most recreational drugs are used to alter or inhibit normal consciousness.

There really isn't a mechanical way to stick "you fell all warm and floaty and sounds have color now".

If anything, attach very mild penalties to drugs when used. Things like slightly decreased initiative or reflex or will defense would all make sense for most substances.

If you want drugs with benificial mechanical effects, they are essentially relabeled alchemy items.

A mechanical up side followed by a mechanical down side? Should your PCs be foolish enough to get drunk or use drugs it might provide for an interesting encounter...

And didn't I hear that Crystal Meth was developed as a combat drug in WW2?

Just say'n it might change the perspective of the game to have drugs provide a slight mechanical bonus. I do believe they should create penalties too.

#15
Silverblade_The_Enchanter
Jan 20, 2011 11:41:23
they used and still DO use amphetamines in combat, hough for decades it was a state secret IIRC (in UK)
problem is, tank and aircraft crews, and special forces, can't just "take a break", they HAVE to keep going and so they started giving them stimulants to keep 'em operational

but there's law of diminishing returns, and also issues with addiction/bad reactions, encouraging drug use etc.
Friends relative was an MP on airbase so illegal drugs were damn common at one point soem decades ago

drugs DO give positive benefits..or they'd never be used, but...there's a huge ton of "buts".

example could be
cocaine or similar drug
+1 initiative, +1 Reflex
it does hype you up
it's social affects though are arguable
you coudl suggest +1 Diplomacy and BLuff, liek small amounts of alcohol it can improve social skills

HOWEVER
when they come down, or from addiction or bad reaction, then you'd apply penalties.
and again this is where it gets variable, because it varies on the user, how they react to it, , how pure the dose was, and did they take the correct dose (ehy no micro electornic scales on athas!)
etc etc
really you'd want a random variable for benefits and penalties, to keep that edge of danger

now, some hallucinogenics have very little harmful effects despite all the garbage that's pumped out by dumb governments
but even so...you take them in the wrong frame of mind etc...woooha!
they woudl be great IMHO for "Insight" checks, ie Wisdom, scrying and such like.
but may leave you "Dazed" for hours afterwards.

Strong painkillers liek morphine may give slight damage reduction, since you don't feel pain its much harder to put such a perosn down, hey, a drunk is no joke, they can be real menaces because they just don't think, so do stuff that gets them hurt like still struggle when in an arm lock
and you can bash hell out of them and they wo't godown as they are anaesthetized

but they cna forget dextirty checks, wisdon and intellect checks...ranged attacks...
hell they'd end up an NPC udner DM control if truly "plastered"

#16
jrgumby
Jan 20, 2011 14:36:47 You also need concurrent mechanical downsides.

Even if being a little buzzed makes you suave, it also slows down reflexes suprisingly rapidly.

Even if you manage to stay awake and operational for 6 weeks, how well is your brain actually going to hold together?

I'd say if you want to add in recreational drugs (as often the recreational dosages exceed and/or spike harder than the 'medicinal' dosages) then I'd say give at least a ratio of 2 good to 3 bad.

So if you really want your drugs to do something it'd look more like this. At the very least make them even while used.

+1 reflex, +1 Initiative, -2 will defense, -1 to balance

Withdrawal is often worse, but it's the opposite effect of the drug; its not like a guy on cocaine is going to be a bit wired but otherwise have exceptional judgement and great motor control. And sadly trying to force bad judgement on a character in key situations is not fun for the group (even if the guy who is using thinks it's hilarious) because it could easily destroy their plans or even result in a TPK.

And even if inebriated people may be a menace, do you really think if you put 2 highly trained fighters in a ring, one of them blowing .23 and the other sober, that the sober warrior isn't going to mop the floor with the other? The PCs aren't a bunch of polo shirt wearing frat boys or middle aged bikers in a bar, these are supposed to be highly trained killing machines (as are their enemies).
#17
Pyrate_Jib
Jan 21, 2011 13:24:59 How about the downside of drug reflected in the loss of healing surges?
#18
jrgumby
Jan 21, 2011 16:40:07 The problem with making it a healing surge loss is that you then encourage them to use drugs and simply rest more often.

Unless you have a group that won't rest until a dungeon is done, that's dangerous. You'd literally be training them into a 15 minute day.

If you really want mechanical advantages make it a trade-off that immediately affects the character. In the end it may force them to expend more resources due to being hit more, or falling off a ledge, or pissing off a templar, but it's not a direct result of 'take a drug and lose one of the limiting factors in how long your party can function during a day'.

Unless you want your players using these like potions, bursting for 1-2 fights and then settling down for a nap I would not advise loss of healing surges as a good way to enforce penalties.

Granted, these are all my opinion but I still think using recreational substances for combat benefit is in general a bad idea and a poor reflection of most abusable drugs that actually exist. If it doesn't seriously mess with your head, it has some very low abuse potential. I don't think having herbal potions or the like is bad, but rolling that kind of benefit into what is supposed to be pleasurable and addictive really isn't a good reflection of what illicit substances out to be and may encourage procurring a stash than following the plot. People get high to escape their lives for a bit or step outside their own head, not so much so they can be better warriors. I'm aware of the meth example, but that is 1 drug in dozens and is actually a great example that generally recreational dosing is waaaay higher than the 'functional' dose and it has some seriously screwy effects.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 krosszer0 Jan 09, 2011 23:59:40	So I just started my Dark Sun campaign and one of my players decided that his character is addicted to a drug. We came up with a quick, vague description for the drug (called "spice"), but I was wondering if there is any previous published material that mentions Athasian drugs, for reference. Thanks in advance for any help.
#2 pitchblende Jan 10, 2011 3:00:57	Spice... I don't suppose he means melange, does he? :P I don't think Wizards would too likely have published much about drug use in Athas, but then again, I'm not super well versed in it either. It shouldn't be too hard to work something in, though.
#3 onionkid Jan 10, 2011 3:22:52	Hemp seems to be a staple crop in a few city states so some manner of mutant, spiny cannabis is probably also prevalent. It is Athas after all, everything has spines. Speaking of which, the weirder a drug is the more it fits Athas. Maybe a certain insect, when dried and ground up, can be smoked. Remember the Agony Beetle from 2nd edition? Perhaps it's agony when alive but when properly killed and prepared, it's the ecstacy beetle! Maybe not all "drugs" are ingested. The Hurrum beetle may be similar to a drug. A noble might sit in a room filled with them and just space out on their mind-dulling melody. In my campaign I have "Semuta" a root that resembles ginger and when chewed gives off an effect like morphine. Healers use it, but most Athasians buy it for recreational purposes. It's named after a drug from Dune. Also nicked from Dune is "Verite". A salt-based drug found in certain salt flats. This drug is an upper, and is ingested by letting the little rock of salt dissolve on your tongue. Gladiators both humanoid and animal usually have Verite in their system.
#4 Kye_Tyrad Jan 10, 2011 9:28:29	A while back we created an Athasian Herbology book that could be useful for many ideas from herbal remedies to other creative uses!! I have to update this to a more 4e friendly version, but it still gives a decent background and use for each herb. Any additions or edits that you want to suggest would be excellent.
#5 DontEatRawHagis Jan 10, 2011 14:06:04	Isn't there an lake thats filled with people who are high? I don't have any books with me, you'd think that a world based on life being extremely grim there would be some anti-depressants.
#6 fromost_the_grimm_02 Jan 10, 2011 19:44:02	You, Sir, need to check out athas.org's Athasian Emporium. Please open your textbooks, and turn to Chapter 2: Adventuring Gear - Drugs.
#7 omnijake Jan 13, 2011 3:04:49	Being mostly a desert world I would model the most common drug after Peyote. A cactus would be excess able enough to provide temptation to any traveler, while a poisonous core would deter most--this would fit in with the battle against the elements theme that is so highly prized in a Dark Sun campaign. Also, it could have numerous other benefits and penalties such as adding temp. hp because the character is so blitzed they don't realize they are being hurt, and imposing a negative to checks against sun sickness because the character is less likely to take precaution against the sun while intoxicated.
#8 tashalatora Jan 13, 2011 14:28:28	This being Athas, I would definitely think there would be long term downsides and having to deal with evil people who want to control the contraband trade. I'm guessing not to many could partake in a highly intoxicating or escapist substance without being taken advantage of in such a harsh world. On a side note: I ran a game as a teenager where all the players wanted to be elves... They started a small tribe and had lots of fun trying to sneak contraband (spell components, poison and drugs) in and out of various city-states and fighting between the cities. The adventures really built themselves.
#9 BRJN Jan 15, 2011 21:38:35	Frank Herbert's The Dosadi Experiment describes a world that is mostly poisonous desert (gee, that sounds familiar) and which has an astonishing number of intoxicating substances available. You might get some useful ideas from it. As suggested above, any drug addict on Athas is basically walking around with a neon sign on his forehead, "I am easily manipulated." or "Please yank my chain." Hmmm, how to keep a valuable slave from trying to escape...
#10 Silverblade_The_Enchanter Jan 17, 2011 7:17:09	Well, drugs have often been in my campaigns for variosu reasons 1) great way to control slaves and the poor by leaders with no morals, just like alcohol etc today 2) great trade value, small volume & light, high retail value just like spices, so for a merchant, they can eaisly be added to their inventory 3) genuine medicinal use, remember even in our world, most illegal drugs do have good legitimate uses, heroin is still used legally in Britain as a prescribed painkiller, fyi, as an example. With little control as we know it on Athas, street doctors, alchemists and such would be common place, dealing in things both legitimately and shady,see how such exist and work in the developing world. Which was part of a campaign I just ran. An alhecmist/physician created legitimate, good medicianal drug, but others wanted it for bad uses, as it boosted Endurcance checks and was slowly addictive, thus giving it to workers/gladiators etc, they coudl work harder and take while before they were addicted so less to "worry them" in game mehcnaic was +2 bonus to Endurance checks per tier, but cost 1 healing surge (wouldn't kill though, cna't reduce below 1 unless you massively overdosed) the physician made it to help folk overcome certain diseases, by boosting their Endurance checks as game mechanic , mode of operation was to boost the metabolism into overdrive but much safer than and in different way than most stimulants do 4) One PC in a game ages ago was a drug dealer, hey, some heroes are criminals and all he did was supply the equivalent of Athasian "weed" and some medicines, a petty crook , not a "mafioso" ;) 5) In my games, alchemy is a MAJOR thing on Athas, I can't stand way Athasians are assume dot be dumb, look, the average perosn has little access to collected knowledge, but, in our world millenia of necessity and craft created or discovered many of the medicines and chemicals we still use to this day. AND in our world there's no magic or psionics (well...depends on who you talk to, hehe :p) So my Athas, has dozens of alchemists in each city producing things from Alechmists Fire, to magical healing potions, many working for the noble or trading familes
#11 jrgumby Jan 18, 2011 12:24:22	I never felt like 'base' alchemy was a problem in Athas, and there are numerous example items in the source book... Also, if you're running around with magical alchemists and no psions, it's not the published world. It's your homebrew of Athas. The real issue is that some of the original potions etc just straight up break the environment, and anything overtly 'magical' is out of their depth. That doesn't mean you can't have wise women how know that certain poltices made from a cactus can help heal a wound, or even that if you grind up a beetle gland and smoke it it will help protect you from mental psionic manipulation. In a similar vein, there are probably dozens of medicinal herbs you can take recreationally, and a handful with little other use. The real trouble in my experience is that a character that starts with 'I'm hooked on pills' often has no other depth to the character and will try repeatedly to make him getting a stash and then insisting on roleplaying out a trip the focus of entire sessions. If you know the player, he is mature, he has a good justification for it (such as the 'my master got me hooked') that adds to the character, and you can trust him to be reasonable about it then I think it's perfectly acceptable. Have it occasionally become plot-relevant, but otherwise it's more in the background (you spend 10 gp, you have 5 doses, you smoke one every evening before bed so you can sleep). One other thing I'd do personally is limit the actual in-game effect of addiction and drug use. If you give it mechanical import, you are in essence telling that character a major part of the game for him is getting his supply. If you do give it mechanical effects keep them mostly small and easy to mitigate/ignore for at least a few days. A Disease track with a level-appropriate endurance DC and minor effects would work. Also give the character a way to RP/game out of it that makes them feel like they struggled through. Something like: Every day you don't take a dose of X drug, you must check for Withdrawal progression. 1- Your skin crawls and you shiver randomly. It's creepy. -1 to Diplomacy checks. 2- You feel quesy and nauseous, and begin to sweat. -2 to Sun Sickness checks. 3- Severe Withdrawal: your mind is consumed with obtaining a dose, and our reflexes are blunted. -2 to Will Defense, -2 to Initiative. For every day you remain in Severe Withdrawal the DC decreases by 1 or 2. However, if you don't know the player, or if you know he's sort of a goofball that likes to try and siderail things, don't go there. It's a frustrating mess waiting to happen. In general I discourage such things, because unless it's a good roleplayer they take that one aspect and it's all there is to the character. It takes significantly more maturity and work to roleplay an otherwise good character with a vice he can't shake than a one dimensional drug nut. If he's new to your games, I'd say you might get a feel for his ability to do so by the story he gave you. (If his character was literally "I want to be a Mul Fighter ex-gladiator who's addicted to drugs" that is a warning that the only RP he intends to do is drugseeking). When it comes to immature players and drugs, just say no.
#12 Pyrate_Jib Jan 18, 2011 13:04:20	I too am curious as to how in game terms the drugs would work. Drugs would have to provide some sort of upside or they would not be used.
#13 jrgumby Jan 19, 2011 15:09:09	Personally I think adding a mechanical upside to recreational drugs is a very bad idea. I have never heard of anyone snorting cocaine for its health benefits. For one thing it encourages players to seek out and use them, for another, most recreational drugs are used to alter or inhibit normal consciousness. There really isn't a mechanical way to stick "you fell all warm and floaty and sounds have color now". If anything, attach very mild penalties to drugs when used. Things like slightly decreased initiative or reflex or will defense would all make sense for most substances. If you want drugs with benificial mechanical effects, they are essentially relabeled alchemy items.
#14 Pyrate_Jib Jan 20, 2011 10:05:03	Personally I think adding a mechanical upside to recreational drugs is a very bad idea. I have never heard of anyone snorting cocaine for its health benefits. For one thing it encourages players to seek out and use them, for another, most recreational drugs are used to alter or inhibit normal consciousness. There really isn't a mechanical way to stick "you fell all warm and floaty and sounds have color now". If anything, attach very mild penalties to drugs when used. Things like slightly decreased initiative or reflex or will defense would all make sense for most substances. If you want drugs with benificial mechanical effects, they are essentially relabeled alchemy items. A mechanical up side followed by a mechanical down side? Should your PCs be foolish enough to get drunk or use drugs it might provide for an interesting encounter... And didn't I hear that Crystal Meth was developed as a combat drug in WW2? Just say'n it might change the perspective of the game to have drugs provide a slight mechanical bonus. I do believe they should create penalties too.
#15 Silverblade_The_Enchanter Jan 20, 2011 11:41:23	they used and still DO use amphetamines in combat, hough for decades it was a state secret IIRC (in UK) problem is, tank and aircraft crews, and special forces, can't just "take a break", they HAVE to keep going and so they started giving them stimulants to keep 'em operational but there's law of diminishing returns, and also issues with addiction/bad reactions, encouraging drug use etc. Friends relative was an MP on airbase so illegal drugs were damn common at one point soem decades ago drugs DO give positive benefits..or they'd never be used, but...there's a huge ton of "buts". example could be cocaine or similar drug +1 initiative, +1 Reflex it does hype you up it's social affects though are arguable you coudl suggest +1 Diplomacy and BLuff, liek small amounts of alcohol it can improve social skills HOWEVER when they come down, or from addiction or bad reaction, then you'd apply penalties. and again this is where it gets variable, because it varies on the user, how they react to it, , how pure the dose was, and did they take the correct dose (ehy no micro electornic scales on athas!) etc etc really you'd want a random variable for benefits and penalties, to keep that edge of danger now, some hallucinogenics have very little harmful effects despite all the garbage that's pumped out by dumb governments but even so...you take them in the wrong frame of mind etc...woooha! they woudl be great IMHO for "Insight" checks, ie Wisdom, scrying and such like. but may leave you "Dazed" for hours afterwards. Strong painkillers liek morphine may give slight damage reduction, since you don't feel pain its much harder to put such a perosn down, hey, a drunk is no joke, they can be real menaces because they just don't think, so do stuff that gets them hurt like still struggle when in an arm lock and you can bash hell out of them and they wo't godown as they are anaesthetized but they cna forget dextirty checks, wisdon and intellect checks...ranged attacks... hell they'd end up an NPC udner DM control if truly "plastered"
#16 jrgumby Jan 20, 2011 14:36:47	You also need concurrent mechanical downsides. Even if being a little buzzed makes you suave, it also slows down reflexes suprisingly rapidly. Even if you manage to stay awake and operational for 6 weeks, how well is your brain actually going to hold together? I'd say if you want to add in recreational drugs (as often the recreational dosages exceed and/or spike harder than the 'medicinal' dosages) then I'd say give at least a ratio of 2 good to 3 bad. So if you really want your drugs to do something it'd look more like this. At the very least make them even while used. +1 reflex, +1 Initiative, -2 will defense, -1 to balance Withdrawal is often worse, but it's the opposite effect of the drug; its not like a guy on cocaine is going to be a bit wired but otherwise have exceptional judgement and great motor control. And sadly trying to force bad judgement on a character in key situations is not fun for the group (even if the guy who is using thinks it's hilarious) because it could easily destroy their plans or even result in a TPK. And even if inebriated people may be a menace, do you really think if you put 2 highly trained fighters in a ring, one of them blowing .23 and the other sober, that the sober warrior isn't going to mop the floor with the other? The PCs aren't a bunch of polo shirt wearing frat boys or middle aged bikers in a bar, these are supposed to be highly trained killing machines (as are their enemies).
#17 Pyrate_Jib Jan 21, 2011 13:24:59	How about the downside of drug reflected in the loss of healing surges?
#18 jrgumby Jan 21, 2011 16:40:07	The problem with making it a healing surge loss is that you then encourage them to use drugs and simply rest more often. Unless you have a group that won't rest until a dungeon is done, that's dangerous. You'd literally be training them into a 15 minute day. If you really want mechanical advantages make it a trade-off that immediately affects the character. In the end it may force them to expend more resources due to being hit more, or falling off a ledge, or pissing off a templar, but it's not a direct result of 'take a drug and lose one of the limiting factors in how long your party can function during a day'. Unless you want your players using these like potions, bursting for 1-2 fights and then settling down for a nap I would not advise loss of healing surges as a good way to enforce penalties. Granted, these are all my opinion but I still think using recreational substances for combat benefit is in general a bad idea and a poor reflection of most abusable drugs that actually exist. If it doesn't seriously mess with your head, it has some very low abuse potential. I don't think having herbal potions or the like is bad, but rolling that kind of benefit into what is supposed to be pleasurable and addictive really isn't a good reflection of what illicit substances out to be and may encourage procurring a stash than following the plot. People get high to escape their lives for a bit or step outside their own head, not so much so they can be better warriors. I'm aware of the meth example, but that is 1 drug in dozens and is actually a great example that generally recreational dosing is waaaay higher than the 'functional' dose and it has some seriously screwy effects.