I have compiled a list of some of the changes that I thought would be appropriate, although some of them were really a shot in the dark.
I wanted to make a general change that is implemented across all playable races that do not currently get +2 to a stat and a choice of +2 to one of two other stats. I feel that all races should get the option of a choice between a +2 to one of two stats. I think this will help to avoid seeing classes that are always the same race, because that race is the only one with ideal racial ability bonuses for that class.
I want to avoid any potential problematic changes, namely with regards to things that are too powerful. If you see anything that you think will turn into a game breaking change, please point it out.
Here are my suggestions, some were taken from the DS House Rule thread.
Dragonborn (Dray)
- Ability Scores: +2 Charisma, +2 Strength or +2 Intelligence
- Dragon Breath: Substitute Necrotic damage instead of Cold damage.
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Intimidate, +2 Insight, rather than +2 History.
- DSCG states Dray tend to be avaricious, sly, and amoral, althought careful to observe exact wording of any deal or bargain.
Dwarves
- Ability Scores: +2 Wisdom, +2 Constitution or +2 Strength
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance, +2 History, rather than +2 Dungeoneering.
- DSCG says dwarves have a rich cultural history passed down from generation to generation in great sagas and secret traditions.
Eladrin
- Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence or +2 Wisdom
- Skill Bonuses: +2 History, +2 Nature, rather than +2 Arcana.
- DSCG describes Eladrin as having abandoned arcane magic long ago, however they still have ties to the Feywild.
- Eladrin Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with the longsword.
Instead
- Eladrin Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with the alhulak.
Elves
- Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom or +2 Constitution
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Endurance, rather than +2 Perception.
- DSCG describes them as desert nomads capable of traveling great distances in little time.
- Elven Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with the longbow and shortbow.
Instead
- Elven Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with the Dejada.
- Group Awareness: You grant non-elf allies within 5 squares a +1 racial bonus to Perception checks.
Instead
- Group Endurance: You grant non-elf allies within 5 squares a +1 racial bonus to Endurance checks.
Goliath (Half-Giant)
- Ability Scores: +2 Constitution, +2 Strength or +2 Wisdom
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Intimidate, rather than Athletics; and +2 Endurance, rather than Nature.
- DSCG describes Goliaths as violent and short-tempered i.e. intimidate, and I think that endurance is a better fit than nature is.
- Powerful Athlete: When you make an Athletics check to jump or climb, roll twice and use either result.
Instead
- Oversized: You can use weapons of your size or one size larger than you as if they were your size.
Half-Elf
- Ability Scores: +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma or +2 Intelligence
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance rather than Insight, +2 Streetwise or Nature, rather than Diplomacy.
- DSCG describes Half-elves as holding self-reliance as their highest virture, mastering the skills they need to survive on their own.
- Group Diplomacy: You grant allies within 10 squares of you a +1 racial bonus to Diplomacy checks.
Instead
- Group Street Savvy: You grant allies within 10 squares of you a +1 racial bonus to Streetwise checks.
Or
- Group Naturalist: You grant allies within 10 squares of you a +1 racial bonus to Nature checks.
Halflings
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma or +2 Strength
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics instead of Acrobatics; and +2 Nature, instead of Theivery
- DSCG describes Halflings as having the strongest connections to the natural world of any other race.
- Bold: You gain a +5 racial bonus to saving throws against fear.
Instead
- Powerful Athlete: When you make an Athletics check to jump or climb, roll twice and use either result.
Tiefling
- Ability Scores: +2 Charisma, +2 Intelligence or +2 Strength
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Intimidate instead of +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth
- DSCG describes Tieflings as people having a reputation as dealers of death.
- Fire Resistance: You have resist fire 5 + one-half your level.
Instead
- Necrotic Resistance: You have resist necrotic 5 + one-half your level.
Kalashtar
- Ability Scores: +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma or +2 Intelligence
Genasi
- Ability Scores: +2 Intelligence, +2 Strength or +2 Dexerity
- Elemental Manifestion: Remove Watersoul manifestion.
Please post any further suggestions, or suggestions for the changes that I posted. If you do post suggestions or changes, please provide a reference to the information that you feel justifies this change, or your opinion as to why you think it should be that way.
Thanks!
Here are my suggestions, some were taken from the DS House Rule thread.
Dragonborn (Dray)
Ability Scores: +2 Charisma, +2 Strength or +2 Intelligence
Dragon Breath: Substitute Necrotic damage instead of Cold damage.
Skill Bonuses: +2 Intimidate, +2 Insight, rather than +2 History.
DSCG states Dray tend to be avaricious, sly, and amoral, althought careful to observe exact wording of any deal or bargain.
This I like.
DwarvesAbility Scores: +2 Wisdom, +2 Constitution or +2 Strength
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance, +2 History, rather than +2 Dungeoneering.
DSCG says dwarves have a rich cultural history passed down from generation to generation in great sagas and secret traditions.
I like this too. Only thing is, dwarves are also described as master craftsman, and crafting buildings falls under the Dungeoneering skill...
Eladrin (Wind Elves)Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence or +2 Wisdom
Skill Bonuses: +2 History, +2 Nature, rather than +2 Arcana.
DSCG describes Eladrin as having abandoned arcane magic long ago, however they still have ties to the Feywild.
Eladrin Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with the longsword.
Instead
Eladrin Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with the alhulak.
Why would Eladrin not get longsword proficiency? Longswords still exist in Dark Sun. And considering that Arcana destroyed the Feywild, it might still make sense that Eladrin understand quite a bit about Arcana... know thy enemy and all that.
ElvesAbility Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom or +2 Constitution
Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Endurance, rather than +2 Perception.
DSCG describes them as desert nomads capable of traveling great distances in little time.
Elven Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with the longbow and shortbow.
Instead
Elven Weapon Proficiency: You gain proficiency with the Dejada.
Group Awareness: You grant non-elf allies within 5 squares a +1 racial bonus to Perception checks.
Instead
Group Endurance: You grant non-elf allies within 5 squares a +1 racial bonus to Endurance checks.
This one is just terrible. Elves don't get intelligence as an option? Have you read the Elves of Athas? It specifically talks about how the Elves of Athas are hyper intelligent and have a poor Wisdom. Hell, they are supposed to make poor members of every class that uses Wisdom except for rangers. On the other hand, a lot of their fluff fits with what Wisdom represents in 4e despite all that (leaps of intuitive genius and all that). they are supposed to be super perceptive, and do know a ton about the natural world. And despite all their fluff about being runners, they got penalties to constitution in 2e. Their running was modeled via other means. Means that are very analogous to the 4e elf's higher speed (which already gives them a faster overland movement rate) and ability to shift over difficult terrain without penalty. And there are pages and pages talking about how one of the few things they really take the effort to master (instead of spending their time drinking, dancing, and performing censored activities) is the bow. I would suggest using the Athasian elves as is (or else replacing their Wisdom modifier with a Constitution modifier), and further modeling their running abilities via feats.
Goliath (Half-Giant)Ability Scores: +2 Constitution, +2 Strength or +2 Wisdom
Skill Bonuses: +2 Intimidate, rather than Athletics; and +2 Endurance, rather than Nature.
DSCG describes Goliaths as violent and short-tempered i.e. intimidate, and I think that endurance is a better fit than nature is.
Powerful Athlete: When you make an Athletics check to jump or climb, roll twice and use either result.
Instead
Oversized: You can use weapons of your size or one size larger than you as if they were your size.
This one is terrible as well. It is heluva overpowered. I have a homebrew half giant floating around the boards that got a thumbs up from pretty much everyone. I would suggest you use something like that instead.
Half-ElfAbility Scores: +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma or +2 Intelligence
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance rather than Insight, +2 Streetwise or Nature, rather than Diplomacy.
DSCG describes Half-elves as holding self-reliance as their highest virture, mastering the skills they need to survive on their own.
Group Diplomacy: You grant allies within 10 squares of you a +1 racial bonus to Diplomacy checks.
Instead
Group Street Savvy: You grant allies within 10 squares of you a +1 racial bonus to Streetwise checks.
Or
Group Naturalist: You grant allies within 10 squares of you a +1 racial bonus to Nature checks.
I don't know what I think of this one.
HalflingsAbility Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma or +2 Strength
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics instead of Acrobatics; and +2 Nature, instead of Theivery
DSCG describes Halflings as having the strongest connections to the natural world of any other race.
Bold: You gain a +5 racial bonus to saving throws against fear.
Instead
Powerful Athlete: When you make an Athletics check to jump or climb, roll twice and use either result.
This one makes absolutely zero sense. Halflings are fine as they are. All halflings need is a +2 bonus to Wisdom instead of a +2 bonus to Charisma, which is, oddly enough, the thing you kept. The +2 bonus to Strength is a big no no. They were not strong in 2e. They don't make sense as being super strong in this edition. You are talking about giving them the same bonus to strength as that given to half-giants! Absolutely not. The +2 they get to Constitution via the RAW (from essentials) makes a lot more sense to represent their hardiness. And acrobatics still seems much more their shtick than athletics. Yea. Not good on this one at all...
TieflingAbility Scores: +2 Charisma, +2 Intelligence or +2 Strength
Skill Bonuses: +2 Intimidate instead of +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth
DSCG describes Tieflings as people having a reputation as dealers of death.
Fire Resistance: You have resist fire 5 + one-half your level.
Instead
Necrotic Resistance: You have resist necrotic 5 + one-half your level.
No opinion.
KalashtarAbility Scores: +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma or +2 Intelligence
No opinion.
GenasiAbility Scores: +2 Intelligence, +2 Strength or +2 Dexerity
Elemental Manifestion: Remove Watersoul manifestion.
Please post any further suggestions, or suggestions for the changes that I posted. If you do post suggestions or changes, please provide a reference to the information that you feel justifies this change, or your opinion as to why you think it should be that way.
Thanks!
I like this one. I also see Genasi as being elementally infused humans, so I changed their skill bonuses to match those given to elementally infused creatures according to the DSCC.
Dwarves - I think for Dwarves you could give players the choice of +2 to History or +2 to Dungeoneering. Obviously it would be nice to give them a bonus to all 3, but that wouldn't be fair to other races.
Eladrin - Keeping proficiency with Longsword is fine, I was just looking for things that might actually lend some flavor to the races of Athas. Having traditional fantasy races that have proficiency with traditional weapons works of course, I just think it would be cooler if Eladrin were perhaps the ones that introduced the Alhulak to the other races of Athas or something along those lines. Also, seeing how the Alhulak and Longsword are both statistically identical, it should not affect game balance.
Elves - No I have not read Elves of Athas, nor any of the other 2nd Edition materials, and I am not trying to imply that I have. I am simply trying to make changes that 'seem' like appropriate changes to make. Perhaps +2 Dexterity and +2 to Intelligence or Constitution would fit better and the player can chose between +2 to Endurance or +2 to Perception?
I understand what you are saying about modeling their running with feats, but does this then assume that all nomadic elves take feats that are associated with running just to justify their ability to move swiftly through the desert? It seems like it would make more sense to have their ability to move swiftly through the desert be something that is related to race rather than feat selection.
Goliath - I'm curious as to why you think that giving Goliaths the "Oversized" racial trait is way overpowered? To me this essentially amounts to +1 damage with weapons, which doesn't seem way overpowered to me, but perhaps I just don't see it.
Also, just because a couple of people respond to your Goliath post and say they like your idea, does not mean that your idea got the thumbs up from pretty much everyone...
Halflings - This one was kind of a shot in the dark for me, however people should understand "Strength" is a term that does not necessarily correlate directly to size. When I hear halflings described as feral humanoids that live in jungles, I see them as little tarzans. I guarantee that even if you are small, but spend all your time doing physical activities (swinging from trees, running through the jungle), you will probably be incredibly strong for your size. Perhaps Wisdom would work better, than Charisma, but then what would be their 3rd stat choice, if not Strength?
Regarding Powerful Athlete, perhaps it is not the best fit, but I think it is certainly a fit. Althetics is the skill that governs running and jumping (not Acrobatics) therefore if these guys spends their days runnind and jumping through the forest, then doesn't it make sense that they would recieve a bonus to Athletics? Perhaps this is another area where they could be given the choice between Athletics or Acrobatics.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to provide oversized weapons for Goliaths?
This does not necessarily have to be something that needs to exist, but you look at pictures of Goliaths in the DS books and their wielding weapons that are as large as the other medium sized humaniods; therefore I think it would add some flavor and variation.
Would this work as a feat?
Oversized Weapons
Requirement: Goliath
You can use larger weapons than other races, when using an oversized weapon you gain a +2 feat bonus to damage. Using oversized weapons does not increase the size of the die used to determine damage.
Increase to +3 at 11th level, +4 at 21st level.
Here's one of the pictures I was referring to:
I fail to see why Oversized would be overpowered, being a feat taken from the Bugbear racial write-up.
The feat works as written, no need to change it. The Half-Giant gains a +1 to Will on top of that, while the Bugbear has low-light vision, so i cannot see how all of this can be unbalanced.
And Powerful Athlete is a PERFECT fit for athasian halflings, because they are very good climbers and jumpers, as per 2ed and 3ed too, both the jungle and the Rhulisti flavors. Not so bold to have the bonus vs fear, in comparison to standard halflings, i think.
I agree on the Strenght bonus being very inappropriate, while +2 to Wisdom is a perfect fit.
And a question: how do you justify the necrotic based damage and resistance on the Dray's breath and Tieflings, respectively?
Elves: There are plenty of arguments to support both WIS or INT. The Elves of Athas 2E book does indeed mention that Elves are Intelligence and not Wise, but that's because in 2E, Elves got a huge bonus to Intelligence and penalty to Wisdom. This flavour is probably a direct product of the mechanics - but had little to no effect on game play.
Goliaths (Half-Giant): There's a feat in the PHB2 that gives Goliaths a +2 (up to +4 at Epic Tier) for using 2H-weapons. Is this not good enough for you? Wouldn't the rest just be fluff ("My Goliath weilds a Bastard Sword the size of a human")?
Note about skills: I wouldn't necessarily change the skills around too much. Dark Sun already has too large of an emphasis on the Arcane, Athletics and Endurance skills. Giving players bonuses to "less-used" skills (like Diplomacy for the loney Half-Elves, Dungeoneering for Dwarves) might encourage players to think creatively and add more depth to your Dark Sun setting.
It's worth noting that Arcana seems to cover psionic knowledge as well. I believe Psions are trained in Arcana, and there are a few other mechanical references to the skill that support psionic effects falling under its purview - including rituals. Thus, it is extremely appropriate for Eladrin, as a psionically focused race, to retain their Arcana bonus.
In response to earlier reply, yes I like the endurance skill, perhaps I do provide too many races a bonus to it. I just feel like survival is such an everyday part of life on Athas that many races would have adapted to it, which is then reflected in a racial bonus. I will reconsider giving so many races a bonus to endurance though.
I suppose the larger weapons could be a fluff thing, I just wish there were something in the mechanics to provide the change I am looking for.
Oversized is an option, but there is potential for some abuse by power gamers; I suppose depending on the group it may or may not be available.
As far as the necrotic damage:
For the Dray it was more just a substitution for cold which for some reason doesn't seem appropriate. However, depending on the flavoring of Dray in your campaign, perhaps it could have something to do with their relationship with Sorcerer Kings or Dragons, who are defilers and arcane magic users (to my knowledge). I saw necrotic damage as being a possible thing that was passed on through the bloodline.
For Tieflings, again depending on their flavoring your campaign, but the DSCG said that Tieflings are descended from humans who bargained with dark powers for the strength to survive...I think that there is a logical connection to necrotic energy in their racial history on Athas. Also, I think it's important to point out, that the necrotic damage caused by defiling cannot be reduced or avoided in any way; so necrotic resistance would not be that potent of a change in that respect.
The change to Kalashtar was pretty easy, but yeah, seemed like a no-brainer. They are supposed to be exceptionally gifted psionics, but lacked a bonus to one of the key abilities that is relied upon by multiple psionic classes...
There has been some talk about substituting Knowledge: Psionics instead of Knowledge: Religion; as religion does not fit in Athas very well.
What do you all think about that idea as opposed to the idea of having Psionics based on Arcana, given they are actually 2 distinctly different things (even on Athas)?
Dragonborn (Dray)
- Ability Scores: +2 Charisma, +2 Strength or +2 Intelligence
- Dragon Breath: Substitute Necrotic damage instead of Cold damage.
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Intimidate, +2 Insight or Bluff.
- DSCG states Dray tend to be avaricious, sly, and amoral, althought careful to observe exact wording of any deal or bargain.
Dwarves
- Ability Scores: +2 Wisdom, +2 Constitution or +2 Strength
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance, +2 History or +2 Dungeoneering.
- DSCG says dwarves have a rich cultural history passed down from generation to generation in great sagas and secret traditions.
Eladrin
- Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence or +2 Wisdom
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 History or +2 Arcana
- DSCG describes Eladrin as having abandoned arcane magic long ago, however they still have ties to the Feywild.
Elves
- Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence or +2 Constitution
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Endurance or +2 Perception.
- DSCG describes them as desert nomads capable of traveling great distances in little time.
- Group Awareness: You grant non-elf allies within 5 squares a +1 racial bonus to Perception checks.
Or
- Group Endurance: You grant non-elf allies within 5 squares a +1 racial bonus to Endurance checks.
Goliath (Half-Giant)
- Ability Scores: +2 Constitution, +2 Strength or +2 Wisdom
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Intimidate, +2 Endurance or +2 Athletics
- DSCG describes Goliaths as violent and short-tempered i.e. intimidate, and I think that endurance is a better fit than nature is.
Half-Elf
- Ability Scores: +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma or +2 Intelligence
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Insight, +2 Streetwise or Diplomacy
- DSCG describes Half-elves as holding self-reliance as their highest virture, mastering the skills they need to survive on their own.
- Group Diplomacy: You grant allies within 10 squares of you a +1 racial bonus to Diplomacy checks.
Or
- Group Street Savvy: You grant allies within 10 squares of you a +1 racial bonus to Streetwise checks.
Halflings
- Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma or +2 Wisdom
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Nature, +2 Athletics or Acrobatics
- DSCG describes Halflings as having the strongest connections to the natural world of any other race.
- Bold: You gain a +5 racial bonus to saving throws against fear.
Instead
- Powerful Athlete: When you make an Athletics check to jump or climb, roll twice and use either result.
Tiefling
- Ability Scores: +2 Charisma, +2 Intelligence or +2 Strength
- Skill Bonuses: +2 Intimidate, +2 Stealth or +2 Bluff
- DSCG describes Tieflings as people having a reputation as dealers of death, who are descended from humans who bargained with dark powers for strength.
- Fire Resistance: You have resist fire 5 + one-half your level.
Or
- Necrotic Resistance: You have resist necrotic 5 + one-half your level.
Kalashtar
- Ability Scores: +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma or +2 Intelligence
Genasi
- Ability Scores: +2 Intelligence, +2 Strength or +2 Dexerity
- Elemental Manifestion: Remove Watersoul manifestion.
These are the Half-Giant stats I am using. Every time they have been posted they have got a lot of praise from the boards. It took me three tries to get it right. This is the only version which had people liking it both here on the Dark Sun forum (where people care more about the fluff of Dark Sun) and on the 4e House Rules forums (where people care more about the mechanics and balance of 4e).
Half-Giant Stats (Goliath)
Racial Traits
Average Height: 8’4”-9’3”
Average Weight: 455-742 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, Giant
Skill Bonus: +2 Athletics, Follow the Leader (see below)
Follow the Leader: You swiftly learn to follow the lead of your allies, and just as swiftly forget what you have learned. After an extended rest you may choose one of your present allies' trained skills; until your next extended rest you gain a +2 bonus to skill checks made using that skill.
Mercurial Personality: Your shifting personality makes it hard accurately gauge your state of mind; you have a +1 racial bonus to Will.
Massive: For the purposes of the grab and bull rush rules you are considered to be a large creature.
Giant’s Stature: You gain the Giant’s Stature racial encounter power.
Giant’s Stature Half-Giant Racial Power
You use your immense size to heave everyone around you away, and then proceed to make the most of your gigantic stature.
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1
Target Each enemy in burst.
Effect: You push each target 1 square away. Until the end of your next turn you may draw line of sight, light of effect, or calculate your range and reach, from any adjacent square when using a standard action to make an attack. Additionally, you gain resist 5 to all damage against the next attack that deals damage to you before the end of your next turn.
Level 11: You gain resist 10 to all damage.
Level 21: You gain resist 15 to all damage.
Special Note: You are considered to be a Goliath for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of any other element of the game. Any feat, power, paragon path feature, or epic destiny feature that normally works with Stone’s Endurance instead works with Giant’s Stature. Additionally, the Powerful Athlete Goliath race feature can be taken as a heroic tier feat.
l like some, if not most, of your changes, and i noticed you borrowed a pair of these from my reply in the Houserules thread, specifically the Oversized feat for Half-Giants and the Powerful Athlete one for the Halflings
I fail to see why Oversized would be overpowered, being a feat taken from the Bugbear racial write-up.
The feat works as written, no need to change it. The Half-Giant gains a +1 to Will on top of that, while the Bugbear has low-light vision, so i cannot see how all of this can be unbalanced.
And Powerful Athlete is a PERFECT fit for athasian halflings, because they are very good climbers and jumpers, as per 2ed and 3ed too, both the jungle and the Rhulisti flavors. Not so bold to have the bonus vs fear, in comparison to standard halflings, i think.
I agree on the Strenght bonus being very inappropriate, while +2 to Wisdom is a perfect fit.
And a question: how do you justify the necrotic based damage and resistance on the Dray's breath and Tieflings, respectively?
The designers themselves have said that the Bugbear is not intended as a PC race, and oversized will never be given to any PC race because it is overpowered. It adds +1 or 2 average damage (depending on the weapon) per each [w] of damage. That ends up being between +2 to +9 average damage on any given power endgame. On a critical that number doubles. That is a huge benefit. It is horrendously overpowered.
Eladrin have Int and Dex/Cha which cements their abilites as telepathic psions
Elves i have with Dex and Cha/Wis i don't see any problem with wisdom with elves since that doesn't automatically mean common sense anymore, wisdom can just as easily equal oppurtunistic now
i like the dwarves very much
Tieflings i've got with Cha and Int/Con, seemed a good idea to me, they're great battleminds and Ardents now and they could specialize in fear effects. They also make ideal warlocks of almost every pact now, since i see tieflings having warlocks as common spellcasters among them (I have the dark-pact as having been developed by tieflings as a connection to rajaat, using that alternate history that Dustweaver made on this forum)
Halflings i find a little tricky but i eventually settled for Wis and Dex/Cha
Half-elves i have Con and Cha/Dex the dex for those that prefer the solitude of the desert rather then prejudice from both humans and elves
I don't like having multiple races with the same combination of stat bonuses (ie Mul and Goliath) but i don't know any other combination except the one that copies Minotaurs, (what do the essentials products have for half-giants?)
Genasi i like a more primal theme so they have Str and Int/Wis
Other then those stat changes i like the other parts with skill bonuses and such
Keep up the good work!