DS: Power Level... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

DS: Power Level...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
haferka
Oct 21, 2008 14:57:32 Has anyone considered bumping the starting character level to 11 for a Dark Sun campaign...

the original campaign bumped the level to 3.. with a much better initial character stats...

.. it firmly establishes the campaign as "high powered"...
.. it allows starting characters to use content form the "Gladiator" dragon article.
..comments?
#2
pneumatik
Oct 21, 2008 20:02:24
Has anyone considered bumping the starting character level to 11 for a Dark Sun campaign...

the original campaign bumped the level to 3.. with a much better initial character stats...

.. it firmly establishes the campaign as "high powered"...
.. it allows starting characters to use content form the "Gladiator" dragon article.
..comments?

I think 4E raises the power level of new characters enough that you could start a 4E DS game at level 1 without the PCs dying too fast. Regardless of that, if I ever get a chance to run the DS game I want to run, I'll start it at something like 11th level. But that's because I want the PCs to already be established "heroes" in Tyr. If I was really ambitious I'd start it at 1st level, but as it is I'll be impressed if I manage to run the game through to 30th level.
#3
haferka
Oct 21, 2008 21:17:48
I think 4E raises the power level of new characters enough that you could start a 4E DS game at level 1 without the PCs dying too fast. Regardless of that, if I ever get a chance to run the DS game I want to run, I'll start it at something like 11th level. But that's because I want the PCs to already be established "heroes" in Tyr. If I was really ambitious I'd start it at 1st level, but as it is I'll be impressed if I manage to run the game through to 30th level.

True, but .. DS seams like a campaign where you either go big.. or you go down...

I also don't see a group lower than lvl 11 being capable of serving as guards for a caravan between city states.. (that's my measuring stick for "heroic" characters in any campaign)..
#4
Pennarin
Oct 22, 2008 8:46:48 How did you pass from level 3 to 11?
#5
haferka
Oct 22, 2008 10:28:27
How did you pass from level 3 to 11?

I compared the Heroic/Paragon/Epic lvl breaks against where I saw the similar break in the older edition... It seems like around lvl 3 characters became much more powerfull.. (fireball, etc...) for 4e the power lvl doesnt really jump untill 11th...

Also, DS kicked up the attribute points.. which happens automaticly when you progress to 11th...

kicking up the starting lvl makes it seem more dangerous.. more low lvl npcs who go squish very easily...

It also allows you to NOT hold back when designing encounters outside the "safe" city states...
#6
Cyber-Dave
Oct 22, 2008 21:05:16 Um... I think its a really bad idea. I think 4e manages to capture the feel of Dark Sun from 1st level.

11th level in 4e is much like 11th level in AD&D. The extra levels to 30 doesn't make 30th level like the old level 20. Instead, 4e incorporated epic past level 20 play into the core mechanics.

The idea that characters can't act like caravan guards until 11th level in Dark Sun seems a little ridiculous to me. 4e is structured so that 11-20th level is the period of time in which one fights with lower order demons and angels. In non Dark Sun settings this would mean the start of Planer travel. In Eberron, this would mean the start of killing off the Dragon King's higher level Templar, and being able to freely roam the wastes without breaking too, too much of a sweat.

1-11th level is exactly when 4e Dark Sun characters should be "guarding caravans." 11th to 20th level is when they should be leading rebellions against the city states (without actually fighting Dragon Kings themselves, because that would still be certain death).
#7
Zardnaar
Oct 23, 2008 23:06:17 In the original material level 11-20 was about the range you could start taking on Dragon Kings and almost expect to win. See the heroes of Tyr and the original stats for the SK's or even The Dragon.
#8
Cyber-Dave
Oct 24, 2008 0:36:40 As the Dragon Kings are supposed to be something of the equivalent of Dark Sun gods, I think 20-30 works better for 4e. I'm not saying that some of them won't be about level 20 (which means that a group of level 8-19's might still be able to kill one), but others should be around level 30. I expect at least one "Orcus" powered Dragon King. ;)

And, I really don't think you could expect to win against a Dark Sun Dragon King at level 11 in AD&D... Level 20? Yea, a group could potentially take one out. Level 11? No.
#9
Zardnaar
Oct 24, 2008 0:54:09
As the Dragon Kings are supposed to be something of the equivalent of Dark Sun gods, I think 20-30 works better for 4e. I'm not saying that some of them won't be about level 20 (which means that a group of level 8-19's might still be able to kill one), but others should be around level 30. I expect at least one "Orcus" powered Dragon King. ;)

And, I really don't think you could expect to win against a Dark Sun Dragon King at level 11 in AD&D... Level 20? Yea, a group could potentially take one out. Level 11? No.

The weaker Dragon Kings in second ed had 90-100 hit points and an AC of -2. I think a level 11 party could have taken one. For 4th ed lvl 21-33 or so seems about right.
#10
Cyber-Dave
Oct 24, 2008 1:47:20
The weaker Dragon Kings in second ed had 90-100 hit points and an AC of -2. I think a level 11 party could have taken one. For 4th ed lvl 21-33 or so seems about right.

Um... from what I remember, 90-100 hp is around what 20th level characters had in AD&D. Thats like a level 20 fighter right there (not countering con bonus... but I can't remember if con added a bonus in 2e...)! And they had spells... LOTS of them.
#11
Zardnaar
Oct 24, 2008 6:24:25 Yeah but a party of 4-5 PCs would have something simlar in hp each. I ran a game with level 15 PCs in 2nd ed and the encounter i used at the end was a great wurm dragon, marilith tanaari, lvl 19 clerical lich and level 14 priest and the PCs won that one. We had level 5-8 PCs kill level 18 liches and official adventures from TSR had level 18 liches vs lvl 8 PCs.

The power level of 2nd ed magic was alot lower than 3.5 or 3.0. Third ed could come down to win initiative, cast timestop win.
#12
Cyber-Dave
Oct 24, 2008 18:31:13 The power level of 2e magic was not lower, it was just balanced differently. You could interrupt spells, which made them a lot weaker. But, when spells went off, they tended to be a lot stronger.

I'm still not buying the scenario you are suggesting. I'm not saying its not possible... I'm just saying that I don't think the game intended it, and depending on the DM, it might very well be impossible.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 haferka Oct 21, 2008 14:57:32	Has anyone considered bumping the starting character level to 11 for a Dark Sun campaign... the original campaign bumped the level to 3.. with a much better initial character stats... .. it firmly establishes the campaign as "high powered"... .. it allows starting characters to use content form the "Gladiator" dragon article. ..comments?
#2 pneumatik Oct 21, 2008 20:02:24	Has anyone considered bumping the starting character level to 11 for a Dark Sun campaign... the original campaign bumped the level to 3.. with a much better initial character stats... .. it firmly establishes the campaign as "high powered"... .. it allows starting characters to use content form the "Gladiator" dragon article. ..comments? I think 4E raises the power level of new characters enough that you could start a 4E DS game at level 1 without the PCs dying too fast. Regardless of that, if I ever get a chance to run the DS game I want to run, I'll start it at something like 11th level. But that's because I want the PCs to already be established "heroes" in Tyr. If I was really ambitious I'd start it at 1st level, but as it is I'll be impressed if I manage to run the game through to 30th level.
#3 haferka Oct 21, 2008 21:17:48	I think 4E raises the power level of new characters enough that you could start a 4E DS game at level 1 without the PCs dying too fast. Regardless of that, if I ever get a chance to run the DS game I want to run, I'll start it at something like 11th level. But that's because I want the PCs to already be established "heroes" in Tyr. If I was really ambitious I'd start it at 1st level, but as it is I'll be impressed if I manage to run the game through to 30th level. True, but .. DS seams like a campaign where you either go big.. or you go down... I also don't see a group lower than lvl 11 being capable of serving as guards for a caravan between city states.. (that's my measuring stick for "heroic" characters in any campaign)..
#4 Pennarin Oct 22, 2008 8:46:48	How did you pass from level 3 to 11?
#5 haferka Oct 22, 2008 10:28:27	How did you pass from level 3 to 11? I compared the Heroic/Paragon/Epic lvl breaks against where I saw the similar break in the older edition... It seems like around lvl 3 characters became much more powerfull.. (fireball, etc...) for 4e the power lvl doesnt really jump untill 11th... Also, DS kicked up the attribute points.. which happens automaticly when you progress to 11th... kicking up the starting lvl makes it seem more dangerous.. more low lvl npcs who go squish very easily... It also allows you to NOT hold back when designing encounters outside the "safe" city states...
#6 Cyber-Dave Oct 22, 2008 21:05:16	Um... I think its a really bad idea. I think 4e manages to capture the feel of Dark Sun from 1st level. 11th level in 4e is much like 11th level in AD&D. The extra levels to 30 doesn't make 30th level like the old level 20. Instead, 4e incorporated epic past level 20 play into the core mechanics. The idea that characters can't act like caravan guards until 11th level in Dark Sun seems a little ridiculous to me. 4e is structured so that 11-20th level is the period of time in which one fights with lower order demons and angels. In non Dark Sun settings this would mean the start of Planer travel. In Eberron, this would mean the start of killing off the Dragon King's higher level Templar, and being able to freely roam the wastes without breaking too, too much of a sweat. 1-11th level is exactly when 4e Dark Sun characters should be "guarding caravans." 11th to 20th level is when they should be leading rebellions against the city states (without actually fighting Dragon Kings themselves, because that would still be certain death).
#7 Zardnaar Oct 23, 2008 23:06:17	In the original material level 11-20 was about the range you could start taking on Dragon Kings and almost expect to win. See the heroes of Tyr and the original stats for the SK's or even The Dragon.
#8 Cyber-Dave Oct 24, 2008 0:36:40	As the Dragon Kings are supposed to be something of the equivalent of Dark Sun gods, I think 20-30 works better for 4e. I'm not saying that some of them won't be about level 20 (which means that a group of level 8-19's might still be able to kill one), but others should be around level 30. I expect at least one "Orcus" powered Dragon King. ;) And, I really don't think you could expect to win against a Dark Sun Dragon King at level 11 in AD&D... Level 20? Yea, a group could potentially take one out. Level 11? No.
#9 Zardnaar Oct 24, 2008 0:54:09	As the Dragon Kings are supposed to be something of the equivalent of Dark Sun gods, I think 20-30 works better for 4e. I'm not saying that some of them won't be about level 20 (which means that a group of level 8-19's might still be able to kill one), but others should be around level 30. I expect at least one "Orcus" powered Dragon King. ;) And, I really don't think you could expect to win against a Dark Sun Dragon King at level 11 in AD&D... Level 20? Yea, a group could potentially take one out. Level 11? No. The weaker Dragon Kings in second ed had 90-100 hit points and an AC of -2. I think a level 11 party could have taken one. For 4th ed lvl 21-33 or so seems about right.
#10 Cyber-Dave Oct 24, 2008 1:47:20	The weaker Dragon Kings in second ed had 90-100 hit points and an AC of -2. I think a level 11 party could have taken one. For 4th ed lvl 21-33 or so seems about right. Um... from what I remember, 90-100 hp is around what 20th level characters had in AD&D. Thats like a level 20 fighter right there (not countering con bonus... but I can't remember if con added a bonus in 2e...)! And they had spells... LOTS of them.
#11 Zardnaar Oct 24, 2008 6:24:25	Yeah but a party of 4-5 PCs would have something simlar in hp each. I ran a game with level 15 PCs in 2nd ed and the encounter i used at the end was a great wurm dragon, marilith tanaari, lvl 19 clerical lich and level 14 priest and the PCs won that one. We had level 5-8 PCs kill level 18 liches and official adventures from TSR had level 18 liches vs lvl 8 PCs. The power level of 2nd ed magic was alot lower than 3.5 or 3.0. Third ed could come down to win initiative, cast timestop win.
#12 Cyber-Dave Oct 24, 2008 18:31:13	The power level of 2e magic was not lower, it was just balanced differently. You could interrupt spells, which made them a lot weaker. But, when spells went off, they tended to be a lot stronger. I'm still not buying the scenario you are suggesting. I'm not saying its not possible... I'm just saying that I don't think the game intended it, and depending on the DM, it might very well be impossible.