Elves and Wisdom... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Elves and Wisdom...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Cyber-Dave
Sep 27, 2010 11:39:03 So, in the Elves of Athas book it specifically said that elves have low wisdom. Yet, elves in 4e gain a +2 bonus to wisdom. How do people feel about replacing that bonus with a +2 bonus to charsima. Does that fit elves? Alternativly, maybe a +2 bonus to Strength would actually fit best? I mean, elves of Athas are known for their athletic capabilities and impresive phyiques. Then again, as long distance running would really be an Endurance check, maybe a +2 Con would work best? I hate to add yet another race with a con bonus... but maybe that would work well for Athasian elves? What would best replace a +2 bonus to Wisdom?
#2
merchant_of_shadows
Sep 27, 2010 11:59:48 With the changes from the essentials line - elves are already Dex and Wis/Int race. Other that that - I agree that Cha or Con suits them better.
#3
Acrilos
Sep 27, 2010 12:04:35 Considering many elves are charlatans and entertainers and usually lie to and misdirect outsiders, I would go for Charisma instead of Wisdom. They are cunnning too, so Intelligence is in order.

So the race would be +2 DEX, +2 INT or CHA in my opinion.

I would be tempted to give them a +2 bonus to Bluff skill too.

#4
baronspam
Sep 27, 2010 12:20:57 Although I would be comfortable with any of the houserules above, I think one might make a case for using elves RAW. Wisdom is the stat for Perception and Insight (is that the right skill, the one that opposes bluff?), a good way to represent someone who is cunning. The fact that elves are great runners is already reflected by the fact they have a base move of 7. Not all elves are skilled in business. Clearly some are, which can be represented by either backgrounds or feats(or both) to boost skills like bluff, diplomacy, and streetwise, depending on how one does business, but many elves are likely raiders and hunters as much as merchants and hucksters. They certianly are athletic, but compaired to a Mul or a Half Giant they are more likely to come off as fast and agile than tough as nails. I would run Elves more or less as is.
#5
Cyber-Dave
Sep 27, 2010 12:29:42 I am aware that elves now get a choice between a +2 bonus to Wisdom or Int. The Int bonus is fine. What I am looking to do is replace the Wisdom bonus with something else.

I have been reading through the Elves of Athas to refresh my memory. It has been over 10 years since I read the product last. Wisdom is definitely out. That has to go. The book is explicit about the fact that Athasian elves lack wisdom (in any sense of the word). Now, other than that, the book describes elves as tending to be in peak physical condition, running long distances, and tending towards deceit when dealing with members outside of their tribe. That seems to favor Athletics, Endurance, and Bluff, which in turn favors Strength, Constitution, or Charisma.

The question is, which of the three is best. Charisma would favor warlocks and empaths. Based on what is written in the Elves of Athas, both seem like solid choices. Elves of Athas talks about Elves tending towards psionics developed not through careful study (IE: psions and monks) but rather wild talents (IE: empaths and battleminds).

However, Charisma does nothing to model their tendency towards a peak physical condition. If I were to choose Con then it would favor all martial classes, Endurance (long distance running), and the Battlemind and the Empath (as both have a use for Constitution be it via a primary stat or a build based secondary stat). But that would make them better survivalists than the thri-kreen. I don't like that. Also, didn't they receive a penalty to Constitution in 2e Dark Sun? I remember them getting a -2 penalty to Constitution. Not to mention, the battlemind doesn't seem to fit well with the elves in my mind. I really see them more as empaths...

And then there is Strength. That would make a solid choice. Especially if I add the elven and thri-kreen racial feat I am thinking of adding (which would allow those two races to use their Strength modifier instead of their Constitution modifier for the purposes of rolling Endurance checks to travel for more than 10 hours a day). But it doesn't really benefit "wild talent" psionics one way or another.

So I am sort of stuck choosing which stat mod I think fits the race best. Another thing to consider, I don't want to hurt elven "hunter" builds (aka rangers). But rangers do make use of wisdom. Of course, rangers make use of strength and constitution as well, so that seems to favor one of those two choices.
#6
Cyber-Dave
Sep 27, 2010 12:32:18
Although I would be comfortable with any of the houserules above, I think one might make a case for using elves RAW. Wisdom is the stat for Perception and Insight (is that the right skill, the one that opposes bluff?), a good way to represent someone who is cunning. The fact that elves are great runners is already reflected by the fact they have a base move of 7. Not all elves are skilled in business. Clearly some are, which can be represented by either backgrounds or feats(or both) to boost skills like bluff, diplomacy, and streetwise, depending on how one does business, but many elves are likely raiders and hunters as much as merchants and hucksters. They certianly are athletic, but compaired to a Mul or a Half Giant they are more likely to come off as fast and agile than tough as nails. I would run Elves more or less as is.

I was of that opinion for a while as well. Then, while rereading the Elves of Athas for the first time in over 10 years, I read these two paragraphs.

Elves have an inherent tendency to be highly intelligent.
This intelligence manifests itself not as introspection and
complex planning but as intuitive leaps of genius in the
now. They can determine the best course of action from
moment to moment, thinking on their feet with nearly
flawless mental agility. They can formulate plans in an
instant, reasoning their way through the most unexpected
situations. This high level of intelligence makes elves very
comfortable with magic, whether they are gathering spell
components or practicing spellcraft themselves.

High intelligence must be tempered with common
sense, however, and this is a trait most elves are deficient
in. Nature has not been generous with elves as far as wisdom
is concerned. In practice, elven genius can seem
undirected because of poor judgment or a lack of
willpower. While elves understand and appreciate magic
(at least more so than the general population), they have
little understanding of the spheres clerics operate in.
Thus, elf tribes often have significantly fewer clerics than
mages.

That puts me pretty strongly in the "elves shouldn't have high Wisdom" camp. Espetially when you consider the the "clerics" of 2e are the druids and shamans of 4e, both of whom use wisdom as primary stats. But I am open to an argument to the contrary, that takes these two paragraphs into account. Espetially as leaving things as per the RAW certainly makes my life easier...
#7
baronspam
Sep 27, 2010 14:18:49
Although I would be comfortable with any of the houserules above, I think one might make a case for using elves RAW. Wisdom is the stat for Perception and Insight (is that the right skill, the one that opposes bluff?), a good way to represent someone who is cunning. The fact that elves are great runners is already reflected by the fact they have a base move of 7. Not all elves are skilled in business. Clearly some are, which can be represented by either backgrounds or feats(or both) to boost skills like bluff, diplomacy, and streetwise, depending on how one does business, but many elves are likely raiders and hunters as much as merchants and hucksters. They certianly are athletic, but compaired to a Mul or a Half Giant they are more likely to come off as fast and agile than tough as nails. I would run Elves more or less as is.

I was of that opinion for a while as well. Then, while rereading the Elves of Athas for the first time in over 10 years, I read these two paragraphs.

Elves have an inherent tendency to be highly intelligent.
This intelligence manifests itself not as introspection and
complex planning but as intuitive leaps of genius in the
now. They can determine the best course of action from
moment to moment, thinking on their feet with nearly
flawless mental agility. They can formulate plans in an
instant, reasoning their way through the most unexpected
situations. This high level of intelligence makes elves very
comfortable with magic, whether they are gathering spell
components or practicing spellcraft themselves.

High intelligence must be tempered with common
sense, however, and this is a trait most elves are deficient
in. Nature has not been generous with elves as far as wisdom
is concerned. In practice, elven genius can seem
undirected because of poor judgment or a lack of
willpower. While elves understand and appreciate magic
(at least more so than the general population), they have
little understanding of the spheres clerics operate in.
Thus, elf tribes often have significantly fewer clerics than
mages.

That puts me pretty strongly in the "elves shouldn't have high Wisdom" camp. Espetially when you consider the the "clerics" of 2e are the druids and shamans of 4e, both of whom use wisdom as primary stats. But I am open to an argument to the contrary, that takes these two paragraphs into account. Espetially as leaving things as per the RAW certainly makes my life easier...

You have to think in terms of second edition when you read that. What all of the above boils down to is that "elves make better wizards than clerics". It was very clearly to bias the race toward particular class selection. The description of Elven intelligence is full of things terms like "intuitive" and "thinking on their feet" but bad at complex planning. In 4th ed mechanics this actually sounds much more like wisdom than Int to me. The elven fighter uses wisdom rather than int to keep his oponent boxed in while the elven rangers fill it full of arrows. The elven merchant uses wisdom to boost his Insight skill to grasp what the customer wants, or when the other merchant is bluffing on when he might back out of the deal. The tribal scout uses wisdom via a nature chack to make a quick, efficient plan on how to travel through a dangerous area or how to detail tasks to the clan warriors to search for food and water. All of these, to me, seem to be the kind of intelligence the above quote was talking about. And if you do want an elf who is good at arcane magic, (and is choosing a class that uses Int, there are now multiple roads to arcane mastery) then you choose the Int bonus instead of the Wis bonus.
#8
Cyber-Dave
Sep 27, 2010 14:20:39

You have to think in terms of second edition when you read that. What all of the above boils down to is that "elves make better wizards than clerics". It was very clearly to bias the race toward particular class selection. The description of Elven intelligence is full of things terms like "intuitive" and "thinking on their feet" but bad at complex planning. In 4th ed mechanics this actually sounds much more like wisdom than Int to me. The elven fighter uses wisdom rather than int to keep his oponent boxed in while the elven rangers fill it full of arrows. The elven merchant uses wisdom to boost his Insight skill to grasp what the customer wants, or when the other merchant is bluffing on when he might back out of the deal. The tribal scout uses wisdom via a nature chack to make a quick, efficient plan on how to travel through a dangerous area or how to detail tasks to the clan warriors to search for food and water. All of these, to me, seem to be the kind of intelligence the above quote was talking about. And if you do want an elf who is good at arcane magic, (and is choosing a class that uses Int, there are now multiple roads to arcane mastery) then you choose the Int bonus instead of the Wis bonus.

That is a pretty good argument.

EDIT: But would you mind pointing out thwere it describe their intelligence as intuitive? Because I can't seem to find that...

Also, I sort of like the idea of making elves an inferior choice when it comes to primal classes, to be honest. That does seem as good a reason to remove their wisdom stat mod as any. Insight is a form of common sense, and it explicitly says that elves have little of that. As for elven scouts, they get nature and perception as their skill bonuses already.

I don't know. I am really ambivalent about this. On one hand, I don't like too many house rules. On the other hand, elves with a wisdom bonus really don't seem to fit in dark sun. All the other elvesn racial abilities fit to a T! But the wisdom bonus seems a little misplaced in Dark Sun...

Since I already changed halflings to have a +2 to Wisdom instead of Charisma, I am really tempted to change elves to have a +2 to Charisma instead of Wisdom (to keep the spread even). But I think that would harm my elven ranger player, which means that choice is off the table (I don't find it fair to spring this sort of change on a player after they have already made their character unless they happen to like the change).
#9
nosan2
Sep 27, 2010 21:41:37 I have found that my players have been avoiding certain class and character combination s due to the 4e racial ability bonuses. I tend to let my players change the racial bonus for one of their characters stats if they can make a convincing argument related to their character's background. Itmay not be perfect, but it beats having yet another common race-class combo in my games.

www.azathought.com/darksun/2010/09/4e-ab...
#10
Sysane
Sep 27, 2010 22:04:47 I feel as if Elves and Eladrin should flip their ability score bonuses in DS. DS Eladrin strike me as being more Primal than Arcane and DS Elves being more Arcane than Primal.
#11
baronspam
Sep 27, 2010 22:07:47
[
EDIT: But would you mind pointing out were it describe their intelligence as intuitive? Because I can't seem to find that...

This intelligence manifests itself not as introspection and
complex planning but as intuitive leaps of genius in the
now.
#12
FlashbackJon
Sep 28, 2010 11:51:15 Yeah, I'm with baronspam. The justification they give for Intelligence is pretty much textbook Wisdom.

Meanwhile, the reasoning behind the lack of Wisdom really doesn't have much to do with Wisdom at all, but rather, with explaining why they aren't clerics. (Incidentally, Religion is an Intelligence skill.)

Consider also what a bonus to Wisdom means: you're inherently better at navigating the wilderness (both above and below ground), foraging for food, being aware of your surroundings, tracking creatures, gleaning another person's true intentions/motivation, recognizing illusions and sensing outside influence, identifying natural and aberrant beasts, and practicing rudimentary medicine.

If that list doesn't scream Athasian elves, I don't know what does.
#13
alevar
Oct 01, 2010 16:23:58
for my games i have them with Dex and Wis/Cha, mostly because this allows them to make good Rangers (Scouts) Rogues (Market thieves) some kinds of Bards (Athasian Minstrials) along with pleanty of other Dark Sun elven trades.

Oh and on switching the elve's stats with the eladrin's Eladrins are a primarily psionic society and intelligance allows them to become good psions, on a side note in my games Eladrin have Int and Dex/Cha, making them even more ideal psions along with cementing their hold as Fey pact warlocks (I never understood why gnomes were better at it then them...)

To continue here is the full list of stats that i use for races

Dray: Str and Cha/Int (even better arcane casters now, especially Swordmages)
Dwarf: Wis and Str/Con
Elf: Dex and Wis/Cha
Eladrin: Int and Dex/Cha
Half-Elf: Con and Dex/Cha (for those Half-elves that return the hatred they recieve from elves and humans)
Halfling: Cha and Dex/Wis (lets them be reasonable primal users)
Tiefling: Cha and Int/Con (finally Tieflings are good Infernal pact walocks! another thing i never understood)
Genasi: Int and Str/Con (better at withstanding the elements)
Half-Giants: Str and Con/Dex (mostly I looked at the Half-Giant thug paragon path for this one)
#14
Sysane
Oct 02, 2010 15:37:17

Oh and on switching the elve's stats with the eladrin's Eladrins are a primarily psionic society and intelligance allows them to become good psions...)

Thing is I'm treating the eladrin as fledging pyreen who are more druidic than psionic hence the switch.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Cyber-Dave Sep 27, 2010 11:39:03	So, in the Elves of Athas book it specifically said that elves have low wisdom. Yet, elves in 4e gain a +2 bonus to wisdom. How do people feel about replacing that bonus with a +2 bonus to charsima. Does that fit elves? Alternativly, maybe a +2 bonus to Strength would actually fit best? I mean, elves of Athas are known for their athletic capabilities and impresive phyiques. Then again, as long distance running would really be an Endurance check, maybe a +2 Con would work best? I hate to add yet another race with a con bonus... but maybe that would work well for Athasian elves? What would best replace a +2 bonus to Wisdom?
#2 merchant_of_shadows Sep 27, 2010 11:59:48	With the changes from the essentials line - elves are already Dex and Wis/Int race. Other that that - I agree that Cha or Con suits them better.
#3 Acrilos Sep 27, 2010 12:04:35	Considering many elves are charlatans and entertainers and usually lie to and misdirect outsiders, I would go for Charisma instead of Wisdom. They are cunnning too, so Intelligence is in order. So the race would be +2 DEX, +2 INT or CHA in my opinion. I would be tempted to give them a +2 bonus to Bluff skill too.
#4 baronspam Sep 27, 2010 12:20:57	Although I would be comfortable with any of the houserules above, I think one might make a case for using elves RAW. Wisdom is the stat for Perception and Insight (is that the right skill, the one that opposes bluff?), a good way to represent someone who is cunning. The fact that elves are great runners is already reflected by the fact they have a base move of 7. Not all elves are skilled in business. Clearly some are, which can be represented by either backgrounds or feats(or both) to boost skills like bluff, diplomacy, and streetwise, depending on how one does business, but many elves are likely raiders and hunters as much as merchants and hucksters. They certianly are athletic, but compaired to a Mul or a Half Giant they are more likely to come off as fast and agile than tough as nails. I would run Elves more or less as is.
#5 Cyber-Dave Sep 27, 2010 12:29:42	I am aware that elves now get a choice between a +2 bonus to Wisdom or Int. The Int bonus is fine. What I am looking to do is replace the Wisdom bonus with something else. I have been reading through the Elves of Athas to refresh my memory. It has been over 10 years since I read the product last. Wisdom is definitely out. That has to go. The book is explicit about the fact that Athasian elves lack wisdom (in any sense of the word). Now, other than that, the book describes elves as tending to be in peak physical condition, running long distances, and tending towards deceit when dealing with members outside of their tribe. That seems to favor Athletics, Endurance, and Bluff, which in turn favors Strength, Constitution, or Charisma. The question is, which of the three is best. Charisma would favor warlocks and empaths. Based on what is written in the Elves of Athas, both seem like solid choices. Elves of Athas talks about Elves tending towards psionics developed not through careful study (IE: psions and monks) but rather wild talents (IE: empaths and battleminds). However, Charisma does nothing to model their tendency towards a peak physical condition. If I were to choose Con then it would favor all martial classes, Endurance (long distance running), and the Battlemind and the Empath (as both have a use for Constitution be it via a primary stat or a build based secondary stat). But that would make them better survivalists than the thri-kreen. I don't like that. Also, didn't they receive a penalty to Constitution in 2e Dark Sun? I remember them getting a -2 penalty to Constitution. Not to mention, the battlemind doesn't seem to fit well with the elves in my mind. I really see them more as empaths... And then there is Strength. That would make a solid choice. Especially if I add the elven and thri-kreen racial feat I am thinking of adding (which would allow those two races to use their Strength modifier instead of their Constitution modifier for the purposes of rolling Endurance checks to travel for more than 10 hours a day). But it doesn't really benefit "wild talent" psionics one way or another. So I am sort of stuck choosing which stat mod I think fits the race best. Another thing to consider, I don't want to hurt elven "hunter" builds (aka rangers). But rangers do make use of wisdom. Of course, rangers make use of strength and constitution as well, so that seems to favor one of those two choices.
#6 Cyber-Dave Sep 27, 2010 12:32:18	Although I would be comfortable with any of the houserules above, I think one might make a case for using elves RAW. Wisdom is the stat for Perception and Insight (is that the right skill, the one that opposes bluff?), a good way to represent someone who is cunning. The fact that elves are great runners is already reflected by the fact they have a base move of 7. Not all elves are skilled in business. Clearly some are, which can be represented by either backgrounds or feats(or both) to boost skills like bluff, diplomacy, and streetwise, depending on how one does business, but many elves are likely raiders and hunters as much as merchants and hucksters. They certianly are athletic, but compaired to a Mul or a Half Giant they are more likely to come off as fast and agile than tough as nails. I would run Elves more or less as is. I was of that opinion for a while as well. Then, while rereading the Elves of Athas for the first time in over 10 years, I read these two paragraphs. Elves have an inherent tendency to be highly intelligent. This intelligence manifests itself not as introspection and complex planning but as intuitive leaps of genius in the now. They can determine the best course of action from moment to moment, thinking on their feet with nearly flawless mental agility. They can formulate plans in an instant, reasoning their way through the most unexpected situations. This high level of intelligence makes elves very comfortable with magic, whether they are gathering spell components or practicing spellcraft themselves. High intelligence must be tempered with common sense, however, and this is a trait most elves are deficient in. Nature has not been generous with elves as far as wisdom is concerned. In practice, elven genius can seem undirected because of poor judgment or a lack of willpower. While elves understand and appreciate magic (at least more so than the general population), they have little understanding of the spheres clerics operate in. Thus, elf tribes often have significantly fewer clerics than mages. That puts me pretty strongly in the "elves shouldn't have high Wisdom" camp. Espetially when you consider the the "clerics" of 2e are the druids and shamans of 4e, both of whom use wisdom as primary stats. But I am open to an argument to the contrary, that takes these two paragraphs into account. Espetially as leaving things as per the RAW certainly makes my life easier...
#7 baronspam Sep 27, 2010 14:18:49	Although I would be comfortable with any of the houserules above, I think one might make a case for using elves RAW. Wisdom is the stat for Perception and Insight (is that the right skill, the one that opposes bluff?), a good way to represent someone who is cunning. The fact that elves are great runners is already reflected by the fact they have a base move of 7. Not all elves are skilled in business. Clearly some are, which can be represented by either backgrounds or feats(or both) to boost skills like bluff, diplomacy, and streetwise, depending on how one does business, but many elves are likely raiders and hunters as much as merchants and hucksters. They certianly are athletic, but compaired to a Mul or a Half Giant they are more likely to come off as fast and agile than tough as nails. I would run Elves more or less as is. I was of that opinion for a while as well. Then, while rereading the Elves of Athas for the first time in over 10 years, I read these two paragraphs. Elves have an inherent tendency to be highly intelligent. This intelligence manifests itself not as introspection and complex planning but as intuitive leaps of genius in the now. They can determine the best course of action from moment to moment, thinking on their feet with nearly flawless mental agility. They can formulate plans in an instant, reasoning their way through the most unexpected situations. This high level of intelligence makes elves very comfortable with magic, whether they are gathering spell components or practicing spellcraft themselves. High intelligence must be tempered with common sense, however, and this is a trait most elves are deficient in. Nature has not been generous with elves as far as wisdom is concerned. In practice, elven genius can seem undirected because of poor judgment or a lack of willpower. While elves understand and appreciate magic (at least more so than the general population), they have little understanding of the spheres clerics operate in. Thus, elf tribes often have significantly fewer clerics than mages. That puts me pretty strongly in the "elves shouldn't have high Wisdom" camp. Espetially when you consider the the "clerics" of 2e are the druids and shamans of 4e, both of whom use wisdom as primary stats. But I am open to an argument to the contrary, that takes these two paragraphs into account. Espetially as leaving things as per the RAW certainly makes my life easier... You have to think in terms of second edition when you read that. What all of the above boils down to is that "elves make better wizards than clerics". It was very clearly to bias the race toward particular class selection. The description of Elven intelligence is full of things terms like "intuitive" and "thinking on their feet" but bad at complex planning. In 4th ed mechanics this actually sounds much more like wisdom than Int to me. The elven fighter uses wisdom rather than int to keep his oponent boxed in while the elven rangers fill it full of arrows. The elven merchant uses wisdom to boost his Insight skill to grasp what the customer wants, or when the other merchant is bluffing on when he might back out of the deal. The tribal scout uses wisdom via a nature chack to make a quick, efficient plan on how to travel through a dangerous area or how to detail tasks to the clan warriors to search for food and water. All of these, to me, seem to be the kind of intelligence the above quote was talking about. And if you do want an elf who is good at arcane magic, (and is choosing a class that uses Int, there are now multiple roads to arcane mastery) then you choose the Int bonus instead of the Wis bonus.
#8 Cyber-Dave Sep 27, 2010 14:20:39	You have to think in terms of second edition when you read that. What all of the above boils down to is that "elves make better wizards than clerics". It was very clearly to bias the race toward particular class selection. The description of Elven intelligence is full of things terms like "intuitive" and "thinking on their feet" but bad at complex planning. In 4th ed mechanics this actually sounds much more like wisdom than Int to me. The elven fighter uses wisdom rather than int to keep his oponent boxed in while the elven rangers fill it full of arrows. The elven merchant uses wisdom to boost his Insight skill to grasp what the customer wants, or when the other merchant is bluffing on when he might back out of the deal. The tribal scout uses wisdom via a nature chack to make a quick, efficient plan on how to travel through a dangerous area or how to detail tasks to the clan warriors to search for food and water. All of these, to me, seem to be the kind of intelligence the above quote was talking about. And if you do want an elf who is good at arcane magic, (and is choosing a class that uses Int, there are now multiple roads to arcane mastery) then you choose the Int bonus instead of the Wis bonus. That is a pretty good argument. EDIT: But would you mind pointing out thwere it describe their intelligence as intuitive? Because I can't seem to find that... Also, I sort of like the idea of making elves an inferior choice when it comes to primal classes, to be honest. That does seem as good a reason to remove their wisdom stat mod as any. Insight is a form of common sense, and it explicitly says that elves have little of that. As for elven scouts, they get nature and perception as their skill bonuses already. I don't know. I am really ambivalent about this. On one hand, I don't like too many house rules. On the other hand, elves with a wisdom bonus really don't seem to fit in dark sun. All the other elvesn racial abilities fit to a T! But the wisdom bonus seems a little misplaced in Dark Sun... Since I already changed halflings to have a +2 to Wisdom instead of Charisma, I am really tempted to change elves to have a +2 to Charisma instead of Wisdom (to keep the spread even). But I think that would harm my elven ranger player, which means that choice is off the table (I don't find it fair to spring this sort of change on a player after they have already made their character unless they happen to like the change).
#9 nosan2 Sep 27, 2010 21:41:37	I have found that my players have been avoiding certain class and character combination s due to the 4e racial ability bonuses. I tend to let my players change the racial bonus for one of their characters stats if they can make a convincing argument related to their character's background. Itmay not be perfect, but it beats having yet another common race-class combo in my games. www.azathought.com/darksun/2010/09/4e-ab...
#10 Sysane Sep 27, 2010 22:04:47	I feel as if Elves and Eladrin should flip their ability score bonuses in DS. DS Eladrin strike me as being more Primal than Arcane and DS Elves being more Arcane than Primal.
#11 baronspam Sep 27, 2010 22:07:47	[ EDIT: But would you mind pointing out were it describe their intelligence as intuitive? Because I can't seem to find that... This intelligence manifests itself not as introspection and complex planning but as intuitive leaps of genius in the now.
#12 FlashbackJon Sep 28, 2010 11:51:15	Yeah, I'm with baronspam. The justification they give for Intelligence is pretty much textbook Wisdom. Meanwhile, the reasoning behind the lack of Wisdom really doesn't have much to do with Wisdom at all, but rather, with explaining why they aren't clerics. (Incidentally, Religion is an Intelligence skill.) Consider also what a bonus to Wisdom means: you're inherently better at navigating the wilderness (both above and below ground), foraging for food, being aware of your surroundings, tracking creatures, gleaning another person's true intentions/motivation, recognizing illusions and sensing outside influence, identifying natural and aberrant beasts, and practicing rudimentary medicine. If that list doesn't scream Athasian elves, I don't know what does.
#13 alevar Oct 01, 2010 16:23:58	for my games i have them with Dex and Wis/Cha, mostly because this allows them to make good Rangers (Scouts) Rogues (Market thieves) some kinds of Bards (Athasian Minstrials) along with pleanty of other Dark Sun elven trades. Oh and on switching the elve's stats with the eladrin's Eladrins are a primarily psionic society and intelligance allows them to become good psions, on a side note in my games Eladrin have Int and Dex/Cha, making them even more ideal psions along with cementing their hold as Fey pact warlocks (I never understood why gnomes were better at it then them...) To continue here is the full list of stats that i use for races Dray: Str and Cha/Int (even better arcane casters now, especially Swordmages) Dwarf: Wis and Str/Con Elf: Dex and Wis/Cha Eladrin: Int and Dex/Cha Half-Elf: Con and Dex/Cha (for those Half-elves that return the hatred they recieve from elves and humans) Halfling: Cha and Dex/Wis (lets them be reasonable primal users) Tiefling: Cha and Int/Con (finally Tieflings are good Infernal pact walocks! another thing i never understood) Genasi: Int and Str/Con (better at withstanding the elements) Half-Giants: Str and Con/Dex (mostly I looked at the Half-Giant thug paragon path for this one)
#14 Sysane Oct 02, 2010 15:37:17	Oh and on switching the elve's stats with the eladrin's Eladrins are a primarily psionic society and intelligance allows them to become good psions...) Thing is I'm treating the eladrin as fledging pyreen who are more druidic than psionic hence the switch.