Kemalok is spelled Kamorak, IIRC, and Fevil is spelled Fevik. Multiple times.
The SKs are not listed as dragons, nor anywhere have I found a mention they are changing into dragons, yet it says Borys "completed the change", or something like that. Change into what? We know they're talking about dragonhood here, yet they don't spell it out, as if they forgot to add a small bit of contextual info somewhere.
Not an error, apparently, but the Black has been completly ommited, which is weird.
Not an error, apparently, but the Black has been completly ommited, which is weird.
Are shadow creatures included in the Creature Catalog?
Are shadow creatures included in the Creature Catalog?
My understanding is that the Grey is the Shadowfell-equivalent, so any creatures with the shadow origin keyword would be from there rather than from the Black.
This came as a surprise to me, since I was expecting the Black to be the Shadowfell and the Grey to be the (dead and empty remains of) the Astral Sea. The decision still puzzles me, to be honest.
I didn't think about "shadow creatures" actually having the shadow keyword, though, which is a good point.
Although it would be a little bit of restructuring, how about the Black gets moved to the Abyss? There's no reason you couldn't get to the abyss from the shadowfell anyway.
Do you doubt the power of the Spellplague ?!
If the Spellplague can neuter Deities,
and relocate the Abyss to Gygax knows where,
couldn't it have changed the spelling of a little monster or two ??
Although it would be a little bit of restructuring, how about the Black gets moved to the Abyss? There's no reason you couldn't get to the abyss from the shadowfell anyway.
Seems appropriate, and if the Dawn War happened, it existed before the gods lost. On a related note, did they "lose" or "die" or what? Are gods like the Chained God dead?
The Black was an emptiness deliniating what exists from what doesn't...so I would have said the Black is an infinite barrier englobing all of Athasian creation (before reaching the barrier one could find the natual world, Feywild, Gray/Astral/Shadowfell, Elemental Chaos); beyond the Black would be impossible things...like Rajaat's otherwordly prison beyond space and time, and the Far Realm.
FAR better than what they wrote.
Is the quality of the book overall pretty good, or is it chalk full of such contradictions?
Shadow Giants, at least based on the art, now look like that assassin shadow creature from one of the MMs, the one depicted as a shadow on the ground strangling a real guy's shadow. The lore is changed too, they no longer are related to what is depicted in the novels. The powers are unrelated as well. It's weird.
They gloss over the Gray, mention it's the Athasian name for the Shadowfell. About it. In what way is it different? Does it match the novels' Gray?
The weirdest part is they somehow decided to keep that odd reference from 2e, the one that says the Gray is a barrier between Dark Sun and the other campaign settings...yet campaign settings no longer are connected in 4e. Gythianki from the Astral cannot actually go to Toril and then Athas, they are either in Toril's universe or Athas'.
So the Gray is a barrier between Athas and...what? There's no longer any connection between settings, so the Abyss, the Astral, the Far Realm, are all unique to Athas. And as far as I can tell those are all within reach of Athas...so what's the barrier for? They might have put the Astral outside of the Gray, I'll need to read it again. Don't know why they'd do that, though.
In regular D&D, Shardminds are said to have had a kind of world in the Astral before it was shattered...an important point to put it in the Astral since in every campaign setting there is but one natural world, not two or three...yet in the new DS book they mention Psurlons are from another shattered world. What world? From another campaign setting? Are we back to an analog of real world physics, with planets actually orbited by moons? Athas is in a solar system with other planets? Or go far enough into a plane and you come out of it not in Athas but some other natural world? Back to the Spelljammer days? I thought moons were a near-mythological feature of a fantasy world, something mystical, not an actual moon. But I'm digressing.
If I write an adventure that matches the lore from the previous setting and novels, but using the new campaign setting and its cool new additions, I'll about need to include a primer to explain what the Gray is, the Black is, rewrite Shadow Giant lore if I want to include them, etc. Quite depressing.
I'm more baffled than anything.
It's rather good overall. There's a weird vibe around the SKs' secret history, and about the planes of Athas. I suspect everyone who played or owned 2e or 3e DS material will retcon parts of it.
What's weird about the SKs' secret history? Did they bring back Rajaat?
They gloss over the Gray, mention it's the Athasian name for the Shadowfell. About it. In what way is it different? Does it match the novels' Gray?
I don't have the books, but I think a big part of their pre-release talk was geared towards the idea that we should let the novels go. I think there's a solid part of the audience that will react to any "XXX is different from the novels now" announcement with relief.
The weirdest part is they somehow decided to keep that odd reference from 2e, the one that says the Gray is a barrier between Dark Sun and the other campaign settings...yet campaign settings no longer are connected in 4e. Gythianki from the Astral cannot actually go to Toril and then Athas, they are either in Toril's universe or Athas'.
I don't think anything in the 4e lore forbids a DM from playing the game Planescape style. Worlds are assumed to be the only material plane for the setting for semplicity and diversity reasons - as if a setting toys with the Shadowfell or Feywild or Astral etc, it doesn't need to be consistent with how they are in other settings.
However, as a Planescape hardcore fan, I foundt little to no problem so far in playing both FR and Eberron with a 2nd edition approach (multiple material planes you can travel to and all that).
If anything, Toril's new lore and the entire melting of two planets storyline sort of hints at the possibility of multiple material planes or multiple planets on different material planes as canon.
So the Gray is a barrier between Athas and...what? There's no longer any connection between settings, so the Abyss, the Astral, the Far Realm, are all unique to Athas. And as far as I can tell those are all within reach of Athas...so what's the barrier for? They might have put the Astral outside of the Gray, I'll need to read it again. Don't know why they'd do that, though.
In regular D&D, Shardminds are said to have had a kind of world in the Astral before it was shattered...an important point to put it in the Astral since in every campaign setting there is but one natural world, not two or three...yet in the new DS book they mention Psurlons are from another shattered world. What world? From another campaign setting? Are we back to an analog of real world physics, with planets actually orbited by moons? Athas is in a solar system with other planets? Or go far enough into a plane and you come out of it not in Athas but some other natural world? Back to the Spelljammer days? I thought moons were a near-mythological feature of a fantasy world, something mystical, not an actual moon. But I'm digressing.
Mmmh, do you have any link to the 4e material that is so explicit about every setting being a single planet and all that?
I remember talks of keeping the settings separate in order to allow for greater design freedom, but if there was something so radical and explicit that it would mean that in the canon planets aren't really planets and moons are just mystical spheres of magic, I completely missed it.
I don't think we ever moved from the "planets are planets, moons are moons, and there's an universe out there" format. Once again, think Toril or even Allabar or whatever that MM3 planet is called.
If I write an adventure that matches the lore from the previous setting and novels, but using the new campaign setting and its cool new additions, I'll about need to include a primer to explain what the Gray is, the Black is, rewrite Shadow Giant lore if I want to include them, etc. Quite depressing.
I disagree that it's depressing. If you want to use 2nd edition lore instead of 4e lore, you should expect to have to either homebrew or explain to players the differences. Continuity with the 2nd edition lore was never promised, and actually I remember how thrilled everyone seemed a few months ago every time WotC news went like "we're gonna ignore this and this and this".
As a note on your previous post, obviously I don't have the books, but on the reference to the Golden Tower, maybe the two statements aren't mutually exclusive.
In particular, if the book uses the choice of words "and people is seen coming and going", it could simply be a case of the book first stating that the tower didn't become a public place (as in, no "reliable" source gets in, and people doesn't really know what's going on there) but the authorities do use it; in short, something to build mystery and foreshadow Tithian as a misterious and potentially dangerous figure. He would be digging in Kalak's secrets and keeping everyone out to perform his plan we know all too well.
As for SKs not being referred at as Dragons, that's more than puzzling. Does the books address dragons anywhere? I wonder if new DMs approaching the game are told ordinary dragons don't exist on Athas or we're gonna start seeing red dragons fighting silver ones over the skies of Tyr.
As for SKs not being referred at as Dragons, that's more than puzzling. Does the books address dragons anywhere? I wonder if new DMs approaching the game are told ordinary dragons don't exist on Athas or we're gonna start seeing red dragons fighting silver ones over the skies of Tyr.
I picked up my books yesterday. The Creature Catalog explicitly states that there is only one dragon in Dark Sun: The Dragon (a level 33 solo controller). Stats for four elemental drakes are also given. In the drake section, there's a short sidebar that explains about there only being one dragon. It also gives suggestions to DMs who do want to use "classic" chromatic and/or metallic dragons in the setting.
In essence, it explains that draconian creatures in Athas are generally unintelligent (Int 1-2), brutush, destructive creatures, not the highly intelligent creatures as per most high-fantasy settings, and that dragons used in Dark Sun should be changed to reflect this. It also suggests reflavoring metallic dragons to reflect the fact that metal is so scarce. Finally, it says that many catastophic dragons, along with brown and gray dragons, are a natural fit for the setting if the DM wants more dragon options.
I hope that answers your question.
We know for a fact that they've kept Nibenay's draconic appearance. I'm assuming Dregoth is largely unchanged, as well, since Dragonborn are the new Dray. Since Kalak is already dead, in the new setting, I'll assume there's nothing weird like stats for his metamorphosing dragon form described in Verdant Passage...
As for SKs not being referred at as Dragons, that's more than puzzling. Does the books address dragons anywhere? I wonder if new DMs approaching the game are told ordinary dragons don't exist on Athas or we're gonna start seeing red dragons fighting silver ones over the skies of Tyr.
I picked up my books yesterday. The Creature Catalog explicitly states that there is only one dragon in Dark Sun: The Dragon (a level 33 solo controller). Stats for four elemental drakes are also given. In the drake section, there's a short sidebar that explains about there only being one dragon. It also gives suggestions to DMs who do want to use "classic" chromatic and/or metallic dragons in the setting.
In essence, it explains that draconian creatures in Athas are generally unintelligent (Int 1-2), brutush, destructive creatures, not the highly intelligent creatures as per most high-fantasy settings, and that dragons used in Dark Sun should be changed to reflect this. It also suggests reflavoring metallic dragons to reflect the fact that metal is so scarce. Finally, it says that many catastophic dragons, along with brown and gray dragons, are a natural fit for the setting if the DM wants more dragon options.
I hope that answers your question.
So then what is the fluff for the Dragon ED? Does it link to the SK's?
We know for a fact that they've kept Nibenay's draconic appearance. I'm assuming Dregoth is largely unchanged, as well, since Dragonborn are the new Dray. Since Kalak is already dead, in the new setting, I'll assume there's nothing weird like stats for his metamorphosing dragon form described in Verdant Passage...
I never played 2E Dark Sun or read any of the novels, so I really can't speak to that. However (and without the books in front of me--I'm at work), the Creature Catalog does have a two-page entry, complete with fluff and stat blocks, for each of the sorcerer kings/queens. Each of them also has artwork, though I honestly don't recall whether Nibenay is shown as draconic or not (sorry).
Now, I'm going to get fluff wrong here because of my previous inexperience with the setting, but in the Campaign Setting book there's a sidebar that explains the "secret history" of Athas--the stuff that the PCs don't know and really have no way of finding out, short of mind-reading a sorcerer king. In that sidebar it says that The Dragon is Borys ascended. Only the other sorcerer kings know this, and they pay homage to him in the form of reluctant worship (maybe I'm making that part up) and slaves/sacrifices.
It's also stated, I believe, that the sorcerer kinds would like nothing more than to overthrow The Dragon and fully ascend themselves, replacing him as the most powerful creature on Athas.
In regular D&D it's said the gods migrated to the Astral and founded dominions after they won against the primordials, thus the Astral Sea of Athas would be...empty, and anyone going there that has a strong mind can create mini-temporary dominions, just like Sadira did in the novels.
Actually, having just read every possible bit of information on the planes recently (that is, yesterday), I can confirm that in the "default" setting, it's stated that the Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos always existed and the gods were there long before the Dawn War.
Not that this applies so much to Dark Sun.
That said, the "most accurate" of the "drawings" in Preservers and Defilers depicted the Black as being wholly contained within the plane of Athas (as opposed to being a barrier against anything) so I'm not sure it can't simply become a demiplane, or even analogous to the Endless Night (which would be empty after the death of the gods), only more mysterious and difficult to get to.
Just Kidding, 33 Solo is tough
BTW is an Kaisharga in the Creature Catalogue? And if yes, what level? Elite?
Now, I'm going to get fluff wrong here because of my previous inexperience with the setting, but in the Campaign Setting book there's a sidebar that explains the "secret history" of Athas--the stuff that the PCs don't know and really have no way of finding out, short of mind-reading a sorcerer king. In that sidebar it says that The Dragon is Borys ascended. Only the other sorcerer kings know this, and they pay homage to him in the form of reluctant worship (maybe I'm making that part up) and slaves/sacrifices.
It's also stated, I believe, that the sorcerer kinds would like nothing more than to overthrow The Dragon and fully ascend themselves, replacing him as the most powerful creature on Athas.
The level 16 Divination ritual in the 4e PHB, specifically is able to find info that only 1 creature knows.
So, if a SorcKing knows something, a spirit of some sort knows it too.
The ritual(s) unlock that.
We'll see if that ritual can be found in any way ... (headscratch) ??
They aren't selling the campaign settings as an extended D&D multiverse, but they've left the hooks there for people who want to connect them.
Sure, sure, it's only light b*tching, not bashing, so go ahead and make a thead. The books are indeed filled with much awesomeness, many an improvement over the original.
*phew* okay good...almost started to cry
This came as a surprise to me, since I was expecting the Black to be the Shadowfell and the Grey to be the (dead and empty remains of) the Astral Sea. The decision still puzzles me, to be honest.
From Defilers and Preservers, p.9: "The Black, a realm of chill darkness similar to the Demiplane of Shadow, can be accessed wherever light creates shadows. In the absence of light, no connection to the Black exists."
Defilers and Preservers, p10: "The Gray... separates Athas from the Astral and Ethereal, making planar travel difficult. In the case of the Astral Plane, the Gray forms a wide buffer, making the Outer Planes seem almost unreachable. The buffer isn’t nearly as wide between Athas and the Ethereal. Therefore, the Inner Planes are relatively closer, and the elemental conduits that provide energy to priests have less metaphysical distance to travel."
So for what that's worth, the original Athasian cosmology supports the 'Black = Shadow Plane' concept, and to the degree that metaphysics are likely to show up in your game, it's probably worth house-ruling (house-setting-ing?).
There's no 4e shadow plane, nor is there a 4e Black.
That would be the part where I mention house-ruling.
Sounds like the book is pretty sweet. Can't wait to get mine. Soooo jealous.
The Gray is the Shadowfell because it not only is the destination of the dead, but also acts as a barrier between Athas and the Astral Sea. To get to what's left of the Astral, you have to get through the Gray.This is in the section talking about planar travel and rituals. That said, the planes aren't really the focus of Dark Sun; Athas is. So, we didn't want to put a lot in about the planes, because it's not really the point of the setting.
(Live from GenCon! Yeah, in my hotel room on a Friday night.)
...but, since this is a thread for nitpicking, I thought I'd mention that neither the Avangion nor the Dragon King ED requires Psionic ability of any sort for entrance.
Also, psionic powers can now Defile (though it requires a feat to do so).
Finally, and most disappointingly, I've seen absolutely no mention of Dwarf Banshees (though I've only really skimmed the books). In fact, while the DSCS does mention their single-minded devotion to tasks, the idea of a Focus, as we knew it in 2e, seems to be missing.
No dwarf banshees! WTF. I had a whole adventure idea based on that monster. Darn. Guess I'll have to make them up myself. No mention of focus at all? Not even as a RP thing? Weird. That was a big hook for DS dwaves back in the day.
Look at the Wight entry, it covers (under other names) the Ioramh, Dune Runner, and Banshee monsters.
While 2e players could surely extend the Oath Wight into being Dwarf Banshees, a completely new player to Dark Sun would have no idea of the old concepts of Athasian Dwarf foci and their dire penalties.
This really does disappoint me, since without Focus and its penalties, there's really not much to qualify Dwarves for the "familiar races are different" caveat. Heck, they even removed the idea that Athasian Dwarves find the very concept of hair to be repugnant.
Athasian Dwarves, in 4e, are just regular Dwarves who are bald and live in the desert.
This really does disappoint me, since without Focus and its penalties, there's really not much to qualify Dwarves for the "familiar races are different" caveat. Heck, they even removed the idea that Athasian Dwarves find the very concept of hair to be repugnant.
Athasian Dwarves, in 4e, are just regular Dwarves who are bald and live in the desert.
Can't this be a role[playing opportunity? Why does it have to be a mechanic to give it credibility? Much as I enjoy the different takes on the established races when Dark Sun came out, I was more interested in the fluff than the mechanics. Cannibal halflings, shifty elves and hairless desert dwelling dwarves were very interesting takes on those races. The focus of the dwarf always struck me more as a role-playing hook that the designers hung a mechanic on in their way of differentiating the races from their regular counterparts. The focus can still be used, but it is just relegated to role-playing now.
ARe the motivational posters true? No Rajaat and half a page of history?
Rajaat is quite clearly named under the entry for the Dragon of Tyr. It is revealed that the Dragon is named Borys, it mentions the Cleansing Wars, Rajaat, and the Champions, and the fact that Rajaat is imprisoned outside of time and space through the actions of the SKs/Champions, that he is the First Sorcerer.
This really does disappoint me, since without Focus and its penalties, there's really not much to qualify Dwarves for the "familiar races are different" caveat. Heck, they even removed the idea that Athasian Dwarves find the very concept of hair to be repugnant.
Athasian Dwarves, in 4e, are just regular Dwarves who are bald and live in the desert.
Can't this be a role[playing opportunity? Why does it have to be a mechanic to give it credibility? Much as I enjoy the different takes on the established races when Dark Sun came out, I was more interested in the fluff than the mechanics. Cannibal halflings, shifty elves and hairless desert dwelling dwarves were very interesting takes on those races. The focus of the dwarf always struck me more as a role-playing hook that the designers hung a mechanic on in their way of differentiating the races from their regular counterparts. The focus can still be used, but it is just relegated to role-playing now.
I have to agree with that focus was a RP thing, the mechanics weren't all that great anyway and very subject to rules lawyering interpretation. "My dwarf's focus is to be the greatest warrior in the world so any time he fights he should get the bonus." for example. This same example woudl have pretty much garenteed a banshee if he lost a fight as well becasue he would have failed to complete his focus.
I don't mind if it's purely roleplaying, I just would have liked to see it in there mentioned somewhere.
ARe the motivational posters true? No Rajaat and half a page of history?
Rajaat is quite clearly named under the entry for the Dragon of Tyr. It is revealed that the Dragon is named Borys, it mentions the Cleansing Wars, Rajaat, and the Champions, and the fact that Rajaat is imprisoned outside of time and space through the actions of the SKs/Champions, that he is the First Sorcerer.
Any Infos on Kaisharga? New named Dead Lords of Borys?
ARe the motivational posters true? No Rajaat and half a page of history?
Rajaat is quite clearly named under the entry for the Dragon of Tyr. It is revealed that the Dragon is named Borys, it mentions the Cleansing Wars, Rajaat, and the Champions, and the fact that Rajaat is imprisoned outside of time and space through the actions of the SKs/Champions, that he is the First Sorcerer.
Any Infos on Kaisharga? New named Dead Lords of Borys?
It only lists the Lord Vizier (level 26 elite artillery), from the Prism Pentad. It calls the Dead Lords liches, not kaisharga. It does mention that there is a circle of liches that control the day-to-day of Ur Draxa, but no mention of numbers that I've found yet. It also lists the Vizier's Skeleton, a level 26 minion brute that it can summon with two of its (recharge) powers, so it can keep summoning those skeletons over the course of the combat.
It only lists the Lord Vizier (level 26 elite artillery), from the Prism Pentad. It calls the Dead Lords liches, not kaisharga. It does mention that there is a circle of liches that control the day-to-day of Ur Draxa, but no mention of numbers that I've found yet. It also lists the Vizier's Skeleton, a level 26 minion brute that it can summon with two of its (recharge) powers, so it can keep summoning those skeletons over the course of the combat.
Thank you for the info. 26 Elite, that's tough
! I hoped though they would at least name the 10 missing ones "Valley of Dust and Fire" states that there are 25 Kaisharga, not all are named.
Lord Warrior, chitinous scales of armor, spirit lord (Prism Pentad, PC Game Wake of the Ravager, VoDaF)
Lord Vizier, beak shaped mouth, spirit lord (Prism Pentad, VoDaF)
Lord Defiler, Lesser Kaisharga, servant of Lord Vizier (VoDaF)
Lord Mental, Lesser Kaisharga, servant of Lord Vizier (VoDaF)
Lord Templar (VoDaF)
The Chamberlain (VoDaF)
The Herald (VoDaF)
Lord Scribe (VoDaF)
Lord Guardian, smoking horns, spirit lord (VoDaF, Prism Pentad)
Lord Assassin (VoDaF)
Lord Mariner (Prism Pentad)
Lord Harbringer, lacy fire wings, spirit lord (Prism Pentad)
Lady Bliss, fingernails as long and sharp as needles, spirit lord (Prism Pentad)
A Lord with huge glowing eyes, spirit lord (Prism Pentad)
Neltor, Gladiator Level 23 (Dark Sun MC II, Terrors beyond Tyr)
and 10 others unnamed
and 10 others unnamed
Do we really need them all named?
and 10 others unnamed
Do we really need them all named?
my only complaint is the lack of artifacts
I would have loved to have the Heart wood spear stated out
as well as scourge (and its brother who's name I cant recall)
obsidian orbs .....ect....
Joe
Not enough art of the setting, too much art of "heroes" fighting for their lives.
For what it is, all that said, the art is top notch . . .