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Fading souls in the Gray

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Mulhull
Jan 17, 2009 14:12:21 I wonder how long it takes for a soul to fade there. In The Verdant Passage when Rikus goes there temporarily he meets someone who is just a robe who talks. Do you think the Gray always existed on Athas? My theory is that's why Athas doesn't have any gods, because they can't get power from their worshippers on Athas, as it says spiritual conduits can not exist there. Though Dragon Kings mentions that "some dark powers have fabricated living conduits that masquerade as living vortices" or something like that. Of course, this was before they Gray was introduced as a barrier between Athas and the planes, which officially in game material was in The Preservers and Defilers book.

Agis was seen in the Grey in the Cerulean Storm, maybe he's still there 300 years later in that dragon mag article where it's 300 years after the prism pentad.

What would happen if a god (or how would you rule it as a DM) sent an avatar to Athas? There's nothing specifically that says gods' can't breach the Grey, unlike Sigil (well, they have managed to get a few avatars in who promptly got shredded by the lady). Of course, they are undermined there as they couldn't grant their followers spells. Unless, let's say a god tried to come to Athas in it's true non-avatar form, which in 2nd edition was said could kill Mortals by presence alone. It's interesting to think about, because on other world's that is a capital offense among the other gods' who kill promptly kill the perpetrator, but on Athas there are no other gods to stop it.

And have you read Thri Kreen of Athas where it doesn't mention Thri Kreen going to Grey, but they go to either the happy hunting grounds or Baator. Maybe they just messed up and forgot the Gray in that case. What about animal spirits on Athas?
#2
throkat
Jan 17, 2009 17:54:15 During 3E, I tended to go with the idea that the Gray was something the rhulisti set up early in the Blue Age. The gods got jealous/concerned over the power of lifeshaping, and when the gods and their followers tried to stop them, the nature-masters simply shut the gods out.

With the advent of 4E, though, I figure that the Gray probably had its origins in the Dawn War. Either the primordials won the Dawn War on Athas and banished the gods (instead of the typical other way around) or there was some kind of Abeir-type deal where Athas was given to the primordials.

As for what would happen if a god were to attempt to cross the Gray and enter Athas, here's a few ideas:

1. Cut off from his/her worshipers, the god simply dies. At one point I imagined that the giant stone kreen head (I forget where it was) was all that was left of a dead kreen god that tried to enter Athas, and the Gray prevented its corpse from getting back to the Astral Plane.

2. Cut off from his/her worshipers, the god becomes mortal.

3. The god makes it through the Gray just fine and with his/her divinity intact, but instead of a bunch of other gods showing up to kill the interloper, a bunch of primordials show up to defend their turf.
#3
terminus_vortexa
Jan 17, 2009 20:53:13 If one reads Dragon Kings carefully, one can draw 2 conclusions -
1 -Indirect - The Grey is nothing more than a region of the Ethereal without the usual interplanar connections. The only reason its so hard to navigate is the complete lack of portals and 'landmarks'

2 -Direct, related topic- Dragon Kings very plainly states on p. 64 (as Mulhull said) that 'Dark Powers' from the Outer Planes have established portals to Athas, and can grant spells to their followers, to boot. Only fiends would be able to take advantage of this. They could have made the Living Vortexes (or Living Conduits behaving as Vortexes) and attached them to the skS, ENSURING THAT THESE EVIL BEINGS WOULD HAVE A LARGE POWER BASE. Then, wait a couple thousand years, and open trade realations. no SK except Oronis would have any problem sending off thousands of their minions to burn in Baator forever, if the price was acceptable. Hell, fiends may have been indirectly pushing the SKs into being who they are, for quite some time. Subtly instructing them in genocide, madness and evil through the Living Conduits.
#4
Mulhull
Jan 19, 2009 18:51:37
During 3E, I tended to go with the idea that the Gray was something the rhulisti set up early in the Blue Age. The gods got jealous/concerned over the power of lifeshaping, and when the gods and their followers tried to stop them, the nature-masters simply shut the gods out.

With the advent of 4E, though, I figure that the Gray probably had its origins in the Dawn War. Either the primordials won the Dawn War on Athas and banished the gods (instead of the typical other way around) or there was some kind of Abeir-type deal where Athas was given to the primordials.

As for what would happen if a god were to attempt to cross the Gray and enter Athas, here's a few ideas:

1. Cut off from his/her worshipers, the god simply dies. At one point I imagined that the giant stone kreen head (I forget where it was) was all that was left of a dead kreen god that tried to enter Athas, and the Gray prevented its corpse from getting back to the Astral Plane.

2. Cut off from his/her worshipers, the god becomes mortal.

3. The god makes it through the Gray just fine and with his/her divinity intact, but instead of a bunch of other gods showing up to kill the interloper, a bunch of primordials show up to defend their turf.

Personally I'd cut out option 3. I'm sure some god would have already entered Athas and tried to conquer it if they could really get there with their divinity intact. They only thing is they gradually lose their power as they give out spells and have conduits to take in power from their worshippers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mulhull Jan 17, 2009 14:12:21	I wonder how long it takes for a soul to fade there. In The Verdant Passage when Rikus goes there temporarily he meets someone who is just a robe who talks. Do you think the Gray always existed on Athas? My theory is that's why Athas doesn't have any gods, because they can't get power from their worshippers on Athas, as it says spiritual conduits can not exist there. Though Dragon Kings mentions that "some dark powers have fabricated living conduits that masquerade as living vortices" or something like that. Of course, this was before they Gray was introduced as a barrier between Athas and the planes, which officially in game material was in The Preservers and Defilers book. Agis was seen in the Grey in the Cerulean Storm, maybe he's still there 300 years later in that dragon mag article where it's 300 years after the prism pentad. What would happen if a god (or how would you rule it as a DM) sent an avatar to Athas? There's nothing specifically that says gods' can't breach the Grey, unlike Sigil (well, they have managed to get a few avatars in who promptly got shredded by the lady). Of course, they are undermined there as they couldn't grant their followers spells. Unless, let's say a god tried to come to Athas in it's true non-avatar form, which in 2nd edition was said could kill Mortals by presence alone. It's interesting to think about, because on other world's that is a capital offense among the other gods' who kill promptly kill the perpetrator, but on Athas there are no other gods to stop it. And have you read Thri Kreen of Athas where it doesn't mention Thri Kreen going to Grey, but they go to either the happy hunting grounds or Baator. Maybe they just messed up and forgot the Gray in that case. What about animal spirits on Athas?
#2 throkat Jan 17, 2009 17:54:15	During 3E, I tended to go with the idea that the Gray was something the rhulisti set up early in the Blue Age. The gods got jealous/concerned over the power of lifeshaping, and when the gods and their followers tried to stop them, the nature-masters simply shut the gods out. With the advent of 4E, though, I figure that the Gray probably had its origins in the Dawn War. Either the primordials won the Dawn War on Athas and banished the gods (instead of the typical other way around) or there was some kind of Abeir-type deal where Athas was given to the primordials. As for what would happen if a god were to attempt to cross the Gray and enter Athas, here's a few ideas: 1. Cut off from his/her worshipers, the god simply dies. At one point I imagined that the giant stone kreen head (I forget where it was) was all that was left of a dead kreen god that tried to enter Athas, and the Gray prevented its corpse from getting back to the Astral Plane. 2. Cut off from his/her worshipers, the god becomes mortal. 3. The god makes it through the Gray just fine and with his/her divinity intact, but instead of a bunch of other gods showing up to kill the interloper, a bunch of primordials show up to defend their turf.
#3 terminus_vortexa Jan 17, 2009 20:53:13	If one reads Dragon Kings carefully, one can draw 2 conclusions - 1 -Indirect - The Grey is nothing more than a region of the Ethereal without the usual interplanar connections. The only reason its so hard to navigate is the complete lack of portals and 'landmarks' 2 -Direct, related topic- Dragon Kings very plainly states on p. 64 (as Mulhull said) that 'Dark Powers' from the Outer Planes have established portals to Athas, and can grant spells to their followers, to boot. Only fiends would be able to take advantage of this. They could have made the Living Vortexes (or Living Conduits behaving as Vortexes) and attached them to the skS, ENSURING THAT THESE EVIL BEINGS WOULD HAVE A LARGE POWER BASE. Then, wait a couple thousand years, and open trade realations. no SK except Oronis would have any problem sending off thousands of their minions to burn in Baator forever, if the price was acceptable. Hell, fiends may have been indirectly pushing the SKs into being who they are, for quite some time. Subtly instructing them in genocide, madness and evil through the Living Conduits.
#4 Mulhull Jan 19, 2009 18:51:37	During 3E, I tended to go with the idea that the Gray was something the rhulisti set up early in the Blue Age. The gods got jealous/concerned over the power of lifeshaping, and when the gods and their followers tried to stop them, the nature-masters simply shut the gods out. With the advent of 4E, though, I figure that the Gray probably had its origins in the Dawn War. Either the primordials won the Dawn War on Athas and banished the gods (instead of the typical other way around) or there was some kind of Abeir-type deal where Athas was given to the primordials. As for what would happen if a god were to attempt to cross the Gray and enter Athas, here's a few ideas: 1. Cut off from his/her worshipers, the god simply dies. At one point I imagined that the giant stone kreen head (I forget where it was) was all that was left of a dead kreen god that tried to enter Athas, and the Gray prevented its corpse from getting back to the Astral Plane. 2. Cut off from his/her worshipers, the god becomes mortal. 3. The god makes it through the Gray just fine and with his/her divinity intact, but instead of a bunch of other gods showing up to kill the interloper, a bunch of primordials show up to defend their turf. Personally I'd cut out option 3. I'm sure some god would have already entered Athas and tried to conquer it if they could really get there with their divinity intact. They only thing is they gradually lose their power as they give out spells and have conduits to take in power from their worshippers.