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Fire Resistance and DarkSun

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ultimate_cap
May 22, 2011 9:01:49 How are people handing races like tieflings and genasi in Darksun. They both have resisitance to fire, would they be subject to the same rules for Endurance checks in the wastes? What about wearing Armor? Would they be subject to the same penalty to endurance checks for wearing platemail?

How are folks applying heat penalities to these races with resistance to fire?
#2
Bly2729
May 22, 2011 9:40:33 They're still subject to the same Endurance checks and armor penalties. I mean, its not really fire or heat that necessitates the check. It's dehydration and fatigue. Like Eladrin have bonuses against charm effects but they can still be persuaded. Point is, there's more than just fire and solar radiation as the basis for requiring the check. Protection from thirst is a required but non-existent secondary power.
#3
chaosfang
May 22, 2011 9:45:27
How are people handing races like tieflings and genasi in Darksun. They both have resisitance to fire, would they be subject to the same rules for Endurance checks in the wastes? What about wearing Armor? Would they be subject to the same penalty to endurance checks for wearing platemail?

How are folks applying heat penalities to these races with resistance to fire?

Here's how I'd go about it (logically): If they're traveling by day (which, without supplies or easy access to shade or cover, would likely be a much higher DC), they'd get a situational bonus (maybe +2 or +5, whichever you feel is more appropriate), but if they're traveling by night -- likely an above average to a slightly lower than average DC because they have to deal with freezing temperatures -- then they don't, as Endurance checks in the wastes would be a shortcut for checking not only for dealing with the heat, but with starvation, thirst, walking for hundreds of miles a day with little to no sleep at night [or vice versa]... in short, surviving in general, not just from the heat. Fire resistance doesn't necessarily mean you can shrug off the difficulties of traveling the wastelands.

Fire resistance doesn't necessarily mean heat immunity; while I'd allow them a less painful penalty for wearing metallic armor** while making Endurance checks, I wouldn't remove it completely, at least at heroic tier.

Now, having a Shardmind or a Warforged [perhaps reskinned to make it not metallic], or worse a Revenant or a Vampire in the campaign... THAT would have slightly more complicated issues with how you deal with surviving the wastes

** remember, heavy armor in Dark Sun would likely be from hard materials such as bone, obsidian, and chitin.
#4
ultimate_cap
May 23, 2011 10:31:49

** remember, heavy armor in Dark Sun would likely be from hard materials such as bone, obsidian, and chitin.

Yes, but the sidebar "optional rule" in the DSCG specifically refers Metal Armor (Metal Armor and Overheating, p. 119).

I'm not concerned about non-metal heavy armor. It's the metal that concerns me, though it would be rare non-the-less.

Also, the option rule only applies to Endurance Checks resulting from heat or stilfing heat or endurance checks to resist the effects of heat (while wearing metal armor). Is anyone doing anymore with regards to combat? I thought about after any encounter, make a saving throw (at -2) or an endurance check (at -5) or lose a healing surge. Thoughts on that?

Also, very good points on the revenant and vampire in DS. Anyone else dealing with these races in that setting?
#5
Valien
Jun 05, 2011 9:21:21 I deal with these races by not having to deal with them. "No, there are no normal vampires in Dark Sun - the closest thing to it are the mindeless Thrax, and no you cannot play one of them". Same goes for shardmind, warforged... I only let a player be a Revenant in my DS game because he fluffed it as a "Half-Undead" that still needs to eat and drink.
#6
mach4
Jun 12, 2011 8:57:07
It is, by the way, utterly ridiculous to ban Revenants over the fact that they can spend a feat to not eat or drink. The feat is much more valuable than the gold they're saving, and the only way that's ever going to come up is if you are outright planning on starving the party to death.

It's utterly ridiculous to call someone's game decisions utterly ridiculous if it is valid and justified. You may not agree, but it isn't your game table either.

I would also disallow fully undead revenants for the same reason. Groups like mine do deal with the nuances of food and water, preparing for journeys across the wastelands. It's not much of a wasteland really if there are hotdog vendor equivalents every other day in the badlands or even worse (to me) if the players never even bother thinking about such things such as supplies and deciding on loading up with more trade goods or stocking an extra few days worth of water. In our game, one feat isn't likely to make or break anyone's character build or guarantee a group wipe in every bit of combat. Not having to eat or drink however does guarantee a player's survival 100% against a consistent challenge at the table. That, in my game, breaks things a bit.

You don't have to 'plan' to starve a party to death. A group's lack of foresight can cause that all on it's own. We've had players hoard food, steal from each other during longer treks, even had a group off the player half-giant to free up supplies to make it to a village. Everyone had fun. It's always been an important element to us.

Back to the Ultimate's original concern: we liked maintaining the rather alien mindset of the primal elements and over the years tried not to 'humanize' them too much. Allowing genasi felt counter to that, so we've not included them. We've had a single tiefling though, and our approach was on par with Bly's. The tiefling wasn't uncomfortable in the high temperatures (the PC even played up that he was always a little chilly) but that didn't stop the dehydration from the actual temperature.

#7
ultimate_cap
Jun 13, 2011 9:23:54 Thanks for the input gang. Yea, my major concern is keeping that "desperate feel" of Athas. I can just outlaw certain races, but don't mind allowing players to flush out an idea. I'm not really sure how well revenants really fit into the Dark Sun theme (at least as a pc race). However, I'm willing to give 'em a shot.

If it's a feat they pay to not have to eat, I guess I can live with that. thing is, I have to enforce the "survival factor" if I do that, or the player will feel like he's wasted a feat. And I can do that, just somethig to be aware of.

I think it's simple enough to give a bonus to a save (fire genasi for example) but still have them subject to the conditions. Not sure if that "breaks anything"...but...I can just simply say your resistance is just against "open flame" attacks and such. The gradual beating heat of Athas (which is also magical in nature) still dehydrates and pounds you into submission.

#8
jrwoodchuck
Jun 13, 2011 10:34:48 My group does not like survival days or the endurance checks needed to travel around in Athas. So we don't use those rules. At first I was really hesitant but ultimately you need to do what is fun for all and it became clear that survival days just wasn't fun for my group.

#9
ultimate_cap
Jun 16, 2011 10:24:35
My group does not like survival days or the endurance checks needed to travel around in Athas. So we don't use those rules. At first I was really hesitant but ultimately you need to do what is fun for all and it became clear that survival days just wasn't fun for my group.

This is a very true statment. Having fun is what counts. You can change anything you want. I'm using DS as my setting for the most part, but there are going to be changes for sure that make it "our" DS.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ultimate_cap May 22, 2011 9:01:49	How are people handing races like tieflings and genasi in Darksun. They both have resisitance to fire, would they be subject to the same rules for Endurance checks in the wastes? What about wearing Armor? Would they be subject to the same penalty to endurance checks for wearing platemail? How are folks applying heat penalities to these races with resistance to fire?
#2 Bly2729 May 22, 2011 9:40:33	They're still subject to the same Endurance checks and armor penalties. I mean, its not really fire or heat that necessitates the check. It's dehydration and fatigue. Like Eladrin have bonuses against charm effects but they can still be persuaded. Point is, there's more than just fire and solar radiation as the basis for requiring the check. Protection from thirst is a required but non-existent secondary power.
#3 chaosfang May 22, 2011 9:45:27	How are people handing races like tieflings and genasi in Darksun. They both have resisitance to fire, would they be subject to the same rules for Endurance checks in the wastes? What about wearing Armor? Would they be subject to the same penalty to endurance checks for wearing platemail? How are folks applying heat penalities to these races with resistance to fire? Here's how I'd go about it (logically): If they're traveling by day (which, without supplies or easy access to shade or cover, would likely be a much higher DC), they'd get a situational bonus (maybe +2 or +5, whichever you feel is more appropriate), but if they're traveling by night -- likely an above average to a slightly lower than average DC because they have to deal with freezing temperatures -- then they don't, as Endurance checks in the wastes would be a shortcut for checking not only for dealing with the heat, but with starvation, thirst, walking for hundreds of miles a day with little to no sleep at night [or vice versa]... in short, surviving in general, not just from the heat. Fire resistance doesn't necessarily mean you can shrug off the difficulties of traveling the wastelands. Fire resistance doesn't necessarily mean heat immunity; while I'd allow them a less painful penalty for wearing metallic armor while making Endurance checks, I wouldn't remove it completely, at least at heroic tier. Now, having a Shardmind or a Warforged [perhaps reskinned to make it not metallic], or worse a Revenant or a Vampire in the campaign... THAT would have slightly more complicated issues with how you deal with surviving the wastes remember, heavy armor in Dark Sun would likely be from hard materials such as bone, obsidian, and chitin.
#4 ultimate_cap May 23, 2011 10:31:49	** remember, heavy armor in Dark Sun would likely be from hard materials such as bone, obsidian, and chitin. Yes, but the sidebar "optional rule" in the DSCG specifically refers Metal Armor (Metal Armor and Overheating, p. 119). I'm not concerned about non-metal heavy armor. It's the metal that concerns me, though it would be rare non-the-less. Also, the option rule only applies to Endurance Checks resulting from heat or stilfing heat or endurance checks to resist the effects of heat (while wearing metal armor). Is anyone doing anymore with regards to combat? I thought about after any encounter, make a saving throw (at -2) or an endurance check (at -5) or lose a healing surge. Thoughts on that? Also, very good points on the revenant and vampire in DS. Anyone else dealing with these races in that setting?
#5 Valien Jun 05, 2011 9:21:21	I deal with these races by not having to deal with them. "No, there are no normal vampires in Dark Sun - the closest thing to it are the mindeless Thrax, and no you cannot play one of them". Same goes for shardmind, warforged... I only let a player be a Revenant in my DS game because he fluffed it as a "Half-Undead" that still needs to eat and drink.
#6 mach4 Jun 12, 2011 8:57:07	It is, by the way, utterly ridiculous to ban Revenants over the fact that they can spend a feat to not eat or drink. The feat is much more valuable than the gold they're saving, and the only way that's ever going to come up is if you are outright planning on starving the party to death. It's utterly ridiculous to call someone's game decisions utterly ridiculous if it is valid and justified. You may not agree, but it isn't your game table either. I would also disallow fully undead revenants for the same reason. Groups like mine do deal with the nuances of food and water, preparing for journeys across the wastelands. It's not much of a wasteland really if there are hotdog vendor equivalents every other day in the badlands or even worse (to me) if the players never even bother thinking about such things such as supplies and deciding on loading up with more trade goods or stocking an extra few days worth of water. In our game, one feat isn't likely to make or break anyone's character build or guarantee a group wipe in every bit of combat. Not having to eat or drink however does guarantee a player's survival 100% against a consistent challenge at the table. That, in my game, breaks things a bit. You don't have to 'plan' to starve a party to death. A group's lack of foresight can cause that all on it's own. We've had players hoard food, steal from each other during longer treks, even had a group off the player half-giant to free up supplies to make it to a village. Everyone had fun. It's always been an important element to us. Back to the Ultimate's original concern: we liked maintaining the rather alien mindset of the primal elements and over the years tried not to 'humanize' them too much. Allowing genasi felt counter to that, so we've not included them. We've had a single tiefling though, and our approach was on par with Bly's. The tiefling wasn't uncomfortable in the high temperatures (the PC even played up that he was always a little chilly) but that didn't stop the dehydration from the actual temperature.
#7 ultimate_cap Jun 13, 2011 9:23:54	Thanks for the input gang. Yea, my major concern is keeping that "desperate feel" of Athas. I can just outlaw certain races, but don't mind allowing players to flush out an idea. I'm not really sure how well revenants really fit into the Dark Sun theme (at least as a pc race). However, I'm willing to give 'em a shot. If it's a feat they pay to not have to eat, I guess I can live with that. thing is, I have to enforce the "survival factor" if I do that, or the player will feel like he's wasted a feat. And I can do that, just somethig to be aware of. I think it's simple enough to give a bonus to a save (fire genasi for example) but still have them subject to the conditions. Not sure if that "breaks anything"...but...I can just simply say your resistance is just against "open flame" attacks and such. The gradual beating heat of Athas (which is also magical in nature) still dehydrates and pounds you into submission.
#8 jrwoodchuck Jun 13, 2011 10:34:48	My group does not like survival days or the endurance checks needed to travel around in Athas. So we don't use those rules. At first I was really hesitant but ultimately you need to do what is fun for all and it became clear that survival days just wasn't fun for my group.
#9 ultimate_cap Jun 16, 2011 10:24:35	My group does not like survival days or the endurance checks needed to travel around in Athas. So we don't use those rules. At first I was really hesitant but ultimately you need to do what is fun for all and it became clear that survival days just wasn't fun for my group. This is a very true statment. Having fun is what counts. You can change anything you want. I'm using DS as my setting for the most part, but there are going to be changes for sure that make it "our" DS.