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Forbidden classes?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
wickedgoblin
Aug 20, 2010 17:26:00
So i just got my hands on the fabulous campaign setting book... and there is one thing that strikes me as odd.

Are there no forbidden classes? I cant find anywhere in the book where it comments what classes are allowed on Athas. Ok, for fluff reasons ofc priests will be elemental based... but what about... druids? do they exist? and monks (monks seem like a powerful class in a world with scarce metal).

I dont have the older books, so im not sure if the old campaign book did forbid any classes.

Any help on this matter would be really appreciated since we are preparing to play this weekend, and we are not sure about character creation.

Regards,

Lohn
#2
salla
Aug 20, 2010 17:31:26 I believe the concept is 'If the DM wants to forbid classes, he can, but that's not the default'.

The material weapons and armor are made of is merely fluff, outside of some requirement for high-level enchantments. The 'plate' armor you bought at level 1 may be made out of bone or chitin or whatever, but its game statistics are unchanged. Same with the sword you bought.
#3
aryus
Aug 20, 2010 17:31:28 Nothing is truly forbidden. See sidebar on page 9 regarding Divine classes.
#4
Duke5150
Aug 20, 2010 17:48:12 Divine classes are not officially supported but as long as the DM gives the ok, you can use them. Beyond that, Swordmages and artificers can work on athas with little to no changes. Everything else seems fine. Assassins are a non issue.

Personally, I'm going to allow divine classes once I finish my athasian religions and faiths. All based on the eberron method of using faith as the source of divine magic. No gods needed. Although, there are ways to argue that gods still exist in darksun and what's written in the 4e DS books are sorcerer king propaganda.

There is a temple of the eye, for example, in the ivory triangle dedicated to a forgotten dark god. (tharizdun) So that's a possible hook for anyone wishing to include gods. Another is the fact that torog was trapped in the underdark long before the dawn war began. So he could still be there. You could also have an astral sea resistance where the gods are attempting to undo the harm the primordials have caused. They could be broken versions of the PoL version.

While I don't want gods in my games, the idea of Vecna being the defiler god, or the ravenqueen being an ancient sorcerer queen trapped in the gray are appealing. Bahamut and Tiamat also have some potiential as champions of the warbringer. Bahamut could have been the original "oronis-figure", the first champion to rebel and the first true dragon.

I highly and I do mean highly, doubt I'd use any of those ideas, but they are interesting while at the same time they make me wanna spit. Gods in darksun... Boy, you've been in the sun to long.
#5
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek
Aug 20, 2010 17:59:01
I believe the concept is 'If the DM wants to forbid classes, he can, but that's not the default'.

The material weapons and armor are made of is merely fluff, outside of some requirement for high-level enchantments. The 'plate' armor you bought at level 1 may be made out of bone or chitin or whatever, but its game statistics are unchanged. Same with the sword you bought.

This is why I enforce the weapon breakage rules. Just changing the materials for just fluff is a waste of time if everything works exactly the same way.
#6
ian.thomson
Aug 21, 2010 14:32:00
The divine power source is gone, so by default the divine classes are forbidden unless the DM allows them in.

Druids existed in 2e Dark Sun.

Monks weren't in 2e Dark Sun, but they're fitting, actually. Psionic power is quite pervasive, so it's only natural that someone would apply it to slapping someone. Feel free to ignore the class name "monk," the first character I made was a "monk," but really saw himself as a trader, who happened to powerful but extremely short-ranged telekinesis.

Divine classes are not officially supported but as long as the DM gives the ok, you can use them. Beyond that, Swordmages and artificers can work on athas with little to no changes. Everything else seems fine. Assassins are a non issue.

Personally, I'm going to allow divine classes once I finish my athasian religions and faiths. All based on the eberron method of using faith as the source of divine magic. No gods needed. Although, there are ways to argue that gods still exist in darksun and what's written in the 4e DS books are sorcerer king propaganda.

There is a temple of the eye, for example, in the ivory triangle dedicated to a forgotten dark god. (tharizdun) So that's a possible hook for anyone wishing to include gods. Another is the fact that torog was trapped in the underdark long before the dawn war began. So he could still be there. You could also have an astral sea resistance where the gods are attempting to undo the harm the primordials have caused. They could be broken versions of the PoL version.

While I don't want gods in my games, the idea of Vecna being the defiler god, or the ravenqueen being an ancient sorcerer queen trapped in the gray are appealing. Bahamut and Tiamat also have some potiential as champions of the warbringer. Bahamut could have been the original "oronis-figure", the first champion to rebel and the first true dragon.

I highly and I do mean highly, doubt I'd use any of those ideas, but they are interesting while at the same time they make me wanna spit. Gods in darksun... Boy, you've been in the sun to long.

I'm not including the gods nor the divine classes in my game by default, but if one of the players really must play a divine class, I'll allow it, it's just that the only deities allowed are going to be the most vicious, most underhanded, or most lovecraftian. As you said, Torog could be hanging around in the underdark, and Tharizdun is still hanging around the abyss. I also figure Asmodeus (or a chunk of him) managed to sneak into the Grey with the rest of the devils, but that the (unaligned) Raven Queen is gone. Vecna managed to bust outta Ravenloft, so he shouldn't have any trouble hiding from some primordials. The Yuan-Ti are still around, so it's fitting (and Conan-esque) to have Zehir around.
#7
angelus_obscura
Aug 21, 2010 20:50:31 How about the body of a dead god buried beneath the desert sands or volcanic ash or obsidian fields? If the primordials won their battle agains the gods in Dark Sun, it is highly possible that the corpses of these gods could still be lying around somewhere.

So a PC character could have stumbled across some long buried, ancient temple tomb of some obscure deity, found the body and became imbued with the dregs of divine energy. I remember reading something in either The Verdant Passage or The Crimson Legion (Prism Pentad series) about the Crimson Knights. Undead "revenants" of an ancient order of paladins or priests who are still powered by faith. At least, that's what Ktandeo said to Sadira.
#8
mouthymerc
Aug 21, 2010 23:01:45
How about the body of a dead god buried beneath the desert sands or volcanic ash or obsidian fields? If the primordials won their battle agains the gods in Dark Sun, it is highly possible that the corpses of these gods could still be lying around somewhere.

So a PC character could have stumbled across some long buried, ancient temple tomb of some obscure deity, found the body and became imbued with the dregs of divine energy. I remember reading something in either The Verdant Passage or The Crimson Legion (Prism Pentad series) about the Crimson Knights. Undead "revenants" of an ancient order of paladins or priests who are still powered by faith. At least, that's what Ktandeo said to Sadira.

An interesting article, Dead Gods, details playing divine characters of dead gods. It even has some feats and an epic destiny. It details five dead gods which could be inserted into Dark Sun. All in all an interesting article which could help someones game where a player wishes to play a divine class.
#9
Duke5150
Aug 22, 2010 0:49:24

I'm not including the gods nor the divine classes in my game by default, but if one of the players really must play a divine class, I'll allow it, it's just that the only deities allowed are going to be the most vicious, most underhanded, or most lovecraftian. As you said, Torog could be hanging around in the underdark, and Tharizdun is still hanging around the abyss. I also figure Asmodeus (or a chunk of him) managed to sneak into the Grey with the rest of the devils, but that the (unaligned) Raven Queen is gone. Vecna managed to bust outta Ravenloft, so he shouldn't have any trouble hiding from some primordials. The Yuan-Ti are still around, so it's fitting (and Conan-esque) to have Zehir around.

I'v been playing with the athasian dawn war, just for kicks. Basically, the astral gods were jealous of the primordials ability to create while all the gods could do was change or more specifically, corrupt. So they placed the seed of evil in the primordial realm which spawned the abyss and transformed a realm of natural harmony into the current elemental chaos. (at least according to this tale)

The abyss caused great suffering to the primordials and pushed them into a war with the gods. Not all the gods were enemies of the primordials and through eons of war, they changed. Tharizdun, seeking to cure and restore the elemental chaos, traveled into the abyss to find a way to remove it. When the gods learned of this, they tortured and imprisoned tharizdun. Gruumsh, being the honorable and compassionate being that he was, fought the other gods, trying to aid the primordials. Because of the bloodythirsty viciousness of the other gods, he soon suffered severe emotional conditions (PTSD).

The "good" gods also have a different spin for darksun. Magic is flawed on athas and the reason is that the mad god of magic, Corellon, created it to seduce the natural spirits of the world. Lolth and Vecna end up the tragic heroes of that tale. Pelor actually is the god of suffering, devoted to the destruction of the primordials greatest creation, the world. And so on and so on. I wanted my athasian dawn war/pantheon/mythology to be very different than the PoL fluff and as twisted as possible. But everytime I think of Tharizdun as a boyscout trying to save the planet by picking up trash (rushing into the abyss to destroy it) I laugh. It's like torog the compassionate who hates to see people suffer.

Mostly just rough crap I write to kill time while I'm loaded and not something I'll ever use for my games. but my buddies enjoy reading this kind of stuff, so, I continue to waste my time on it when I should be building adventure submissions for dungeon.

#10
Pennarin
Aug 22, 2010 0:50:10 @angelus_obscura: The knights of the Crimson Shrine in Under Tyr were sustained by faith in their long gone (or in 2e, inexistent) god. This does not necessarily entail that divine power sustains them, for all undead on Athas (besides the regular zombies and such) are sustained by strong emotions, be it belief, dedication, remorse, anger. It's what prevents their passing into the Gray, and what also gives them potent powers. A connection to ancient divine power is one answer, but it's not the only one.

For example, these particular knights long ago turned into wraiths upon their death due to their dedication to an early Green Age god now long faded away, while other knights became wraiths because of their dedication to the goals of cleansing set forth by Rajaat (these are the wraiths encountered in later novels, those who were Borys' former captains).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 wickedgoblin Aug 20, 2010 17:26:00	So i just got my hands on the fabulous campaign setting book... and there is one thing that strikes me as odd. Are there no forbidden classes? I cant find anywhere in the book where it comments what classes are allowed on Athas. Ok, for fluff reasons ofc priests will be elemental based... but what about... druids? do they exist? and monks (monks seem like a powerful class in a world with scarce metal). I dont have the older books, so im not sure if the old campaign book did forbid any classes. Any help on this matter would be really appreciated since we are preparing to play this weekend, and we are not sure about character creation. Regards, Lohn
#2 salla Aug 20, 2010 17:31:26	I believe the concept is 'If the DM wants to forbid classes, he can, but that's not the default'. The material weapons and armor are made of is merely fluff, outside of some requirement for high-level enchantments. The 'plate' armor you bought at level 1 may be made out of bone or chitin or whatever, but its game statistics are unchanged. Same with the sword you bought.
#3 aryus Aug 20, 2010 17:31:28	Nothing is truly forbidden. See sidebar on page 9 regarding Divine classes.
#4 Duke5150 Aug 20, 2010 17:48:12	Divine classes are not officially supported but as long as the DM gives the ok, you can use them. Beyond that, Swordmages and artificers can work on athas with little to no changes. Everything else seems fine. Assassins are a non issue. Personally, I'm going to allow divine classes once I finish my athasian religions and faiths. All based on the eberron method of using faith as the source of divine magic. No gods needed. Although, there are ways to argue that gods still exist in darksun and what's written in the 4e DS books are sorcerer king propaganda. There is a temple of the eye, for example, in the ivory triangle dedicated to a forgotten dark god. (tharizdun) So that's a possible hook for anyone wishing to include gods. Another is the fact that torog was trapped in the underdark long before the dawn war began. So he could still be there. You could also have an astral sea resistance where the gods are attempting to undo the harm the primordials have caused. They could be broken versions of the PoL version. While I don't want gods in my games, the idea of Vecna being the defiler god, or the ravenqueen being an ancient sorcerer queen trapped in the gray are appealing. Bahamut and Tiamat also have some potiential as champions of the warbringer. Bahamut could have been the original "oronis-figure", the first champion to rebel and the first true dragon. I highly and I do mean highly, doubt I'd use any of those ideas, but they are interesting while at the same time they make me wanna spit. Gods in darksun... Boy, you've been in the sun to long.
#5 XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek Aug 20, 2010 17:59:01	I believe the concept is 'If the DM wants to forbid classes, he can, but that's not the default'. The material weapons and armor are made of is merely fluff, outside of some requirement for high-level enchantments. The 'plate' armor you bought at level 1 may be made out of bone or chitin or whatever, but its game statistics are unchanged. Same with the sword you bought. This is why I enforce the weapon breakage rules. Just changing the materials for just fluff is a waste of time if everything works exactly the same way.
#6 ian.thomson Aug 21, 2010 14:32:00	The divine power source is gone, so by default the divine classes are forbidden unless the DM allows them in. Druids existed in 2e Dark Sun. Monks weren't in 2e Dark Sun, but they're fitting, actually. Psionic power is quite pervasive, so it's only natural that someone would apply it to slapping someone. Feel free to ignore the class name "monk," the first character I made was a "monk," but really saw himself as a trader, who happened to powerful but extremely short-ranged telekinesis. Divine classes are not officially supported but as long as the DM gives the ok, you can use them. Beyond that, Swordmages and artificers can work on athas with little to no changes. Everything else seems fine. Assassins are a non issue. Personally, I'm going to allow divine classes once I finish my athasian religions and faiths. All based on the eberron method of using faith as the source of divine magic. No gods needed. Although, there are ways to argue that gods still exist in darksun and what's written in the 4e DS books are sorcerer king propaganda. There is a temple of the eye, for example, in the ivory triangle dedicated to a forgotten dark god. (tharizdun) So that's a possible hook for anyone wishing to include gods. Another is the fact that torog was trapped in the underdark long before the dawn war began. So he could still be there. You could also have an astral sea resistance where the gods are attempting to undo the harm the primordials have caused. They could be broken versions of the PoL version. While I don't want gods in my games, the idea of Vecna being the defiler god, or the ravenqueen being an ancient sorcerer queen trapped in the gray are appealing. Bahamut and Tiamat also have some potiential as champions of the warbringer. Bahamut could have been the original "oronis-figure", the first champion to rebel and the first true dragon. I highly and I do mean highly, doubt I'd use any of those ideas, but they are interesting while at the same time they make me wanna spit. Gods in darksun... Boy, you've been in the sun to long. I'm not including the gods nor the divine classes in my game by default, but if one of the players really must play a divine class, I'll allow it, it's just that the only deities allowed are going to be the most vicious, most underhanded, or most lovecraftian. As you said, Torog could be hanging around in the underdark, and Tharizdun is still hanging around the abyss. I also figure Asmodeus (or a chunk of him) managed to sneak into the Grey with the rest of the devils, but that the (unaligned) Raven Queen is gone. Vecna managed to bust outta Ravenloft, so he shouldn't have any trouble hiding from some primordials. The Yuan-Ti are still around, so it's fitting (and Conan-esque) to have Zehir around.
#7 angelus_obscura Aug 21, 2010 20:50:31	How about the body of a dead god buried beneath the desert sands or volcanic ash or obsidian fields? If the primordials won their battle agains the gods in Dark Sun, it is highly possible that the corpses of these gods could still be lying around somewhere. So a PC character could have stumbled across some long buried, ancient temple tomb of some obscure deity, found the body and became imbued with the dregs of divine energy. I remember reading something in either The Verdant Passage or The Crimson Legion (Prism Pentad series) about the Crimson Knights. Undead "revenants" of an ancient order of paladins or priests who are still powered by faith. At least, that's what Ktandeo said to Sadira.
#8 mouthymerc Aug 21, 2010 23:01:45	How about the body of a dead god buried beneath the desert sands or volcanic ash or obsidian fields? If the primordials won their battle agains the gods in Dark Sun, it is highly possible that the corpses of these gods could still be lying around somewhere. So a PC character could have stumbled across some long buried, ancient temple tomb of some obscure deity, found the body and became imbued with the dregs of divine energy. I remember reading something in either The Verdant Passage or The Crimson Legion (Prism Pentad series) about the Crimson Knights. Undead "revenants" of an ancient order of paladins or priests who are still powered by faith. At least, that's what Ktandeo said to Sadira. An interesting article, Dead Gods, details playing divine characters of dead gods. It even has some feats and an epic destiny. It details five dead gods which could be inserted into Dark Sun. All in all an interesting article which could help someones game where a player wishes to play a divine class.
#9 Duke5150 Aug 22, 2010 0:49:24	I'm not including the gods nor the divine classes in my game by default, but if one of the players really must play a divine class, I'll allow it, it's just that the only deities allowed are going to be the most vicious, most underhanded, or most lovecraftian. As you said, Torog could be hanging around in the underdark, and Tharizdun is still hanging around the abyss. I also figure Asmodeus (or a chunk of him) managed to sneak into the Grey with the rest of the devils, but that the (unaligned) Raven Queen is gone. Vecna managed to bust outta Ravenloft, so he shouldn't have any trouble hiding from some primordials. The Yuan-Ti are still around, so it's fitting (and Conan-esque) to have Zehir around. I'v been playing with the athasian dawn war, just for kicks. Basically, the astral gods were jealous of the primordials ability to create while all the gods could do was change or more specifically, corrupt. So they placed the seed of evil in the primordial realm which spawned the abyss and transformed a realm of natural harmony into the current elemental chaos. (at least according to this tale) The abyss caused great suffering to the primordials and pushed them into a war with the gods. Not all the gods were enemies of the primordials and through eons of war, they changed. Tharizdun, seeking to cure and restore the elemental chaos, traveled into the abyss to find a way to remove it. When the gods learned of this, they tortured and imprisoned tharizdun. Gruumsh, being the honorable and compassionate being that he was, fought the other gods, trying to aid the primordials. Because of the bloodythirsty viciousness of the other gods, he soon suffered severe emotional conditions (PTSD). The "good" gods also have a different spin for darksun. Magic is flawed on athas and the reason is that the mad god of magic, Corellon, created it to seduce the natural spirits of the world. Lolth and Vecna end up the tragic heroes of that tale. Pelor actually is the god of suffering, devoted to the destruction of the primordials greatest creation, the world. And so on and so on. I wanted my athasian dawn war/pantheon/mythology to be very different than the PoL fluff and as twisted as possible. But everytime I think of Tharizdun as a boyscout trying to save the planet by picking up trash (rushing into the abyss to destroy it) I laugh. It's like torog the compassionate who hates to see people suffer. Mostly just rough crap I write to kill time while I'm loaded and not something I'll ever use for my games. but my buddies enjoy reading this kind of stuff, so, I continue to waste my time on it when I should be building adventure submissions for dungeon.
#10 Pennarin Aug 22, 2010 0:50:10	@angelus_obscura: The knights of the Crimson Shrine in Under Tyr were sustained by faith in their long gone (or in 2e, inexistent) god. This does not necessarily entail that divine power sustains them, for all undead on Athas (besides the regular zombies and such) are sustained by strong emotions, be it belief, dedication, remorse, anger. It's what prevents their passing into the Gray, and what also gives them potent powers. A connection to ancient divine power is one answer, but it's not the only one. For example, these particular knights long ago turned into wraiths upon their death due to their dedication to an early Green Age god now long faded away, while other knights became wraiths because of their dedication to the goals of cleansing set forth by Rajaat (these are the wraiths encountered in later novels, those who were Borys' former captains).