The second box set mentions Githyanki as separate from the Gith in the monster list.
Their entry in the original book doesn't really connect them with the Githyanki or Githzerai, except that they look like "a peculiar mixture of reptile and elf," are psionically gifted, and can spring 20 feet without difficulty. However, they only have three fingers, and no opposable thumbs. They're tribal, and tend to live in underground lairs. If you want to have them connected to the Githyanki or Githzerai, they could possibly be the inbred mutant descendants of some Githyanki that got stuck a long time ago (common explanation), but I haven't seen anything actually saying the Gith are related to the Githyanki or Githzerai, just almost everyone assuming they are.
The second box set mentions Githyanki as separate from the Gith in the monster list.
No assumption going on here. Get a copy of the the 2e DS adventure "Blackspine". It pointedly connects the Gith with the Githyanki.
Their entry in the original book doesn't really connect them with the Githyanki or Githzerai, except that they look like "a peculiar mixture of reptile and elf," are psionically gifted, and can spring 20 feet without difficulty. However, they only have three fingers, and no opposable thumbs. They're tribal, and tend to live in underground lairs. If you want to have them connected to the Githyanki or Githzerai, they could possibly be the inbred mutant descendants of some Githyanki that got stuck a long time ago (common explanation), but I haven't seen anything actually saying the Gith are related to the Githyanki or Githzerai, just almost everyone assuming they are.
The second box set mentions Githyanki as separate from the Gith in the monster list.
No assumption going on here. Get a copy of the the 2e DS adventure "Blackspine". It pointedly connects the Gith with the Githyanki.
Correct. It also links the Githzerai as the cause of how Githyanki became Gith, and how psionics came into the world.
I'm not alone profoundly despising Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and Planescape's involvements in Dark Sun. Others - on the contrary liking this a lot - are also not alone.
Let's all agree to disagree.
...which is beside the point. Gith culture, names, looks, motivations, plots, MM entries, up to the point of Black Spines, do not offer a link between them and Githzerai and Gythiyanki. Ian.thomson is right in pointing this out.
I'm not alone profoundly despising Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and Planescape's involvements in Dark Sun. Others - on the contrary liking this a lot - are also not alone.
Let's all agree to disagree.
I don't think anyone's arguing at this point Penn... Sysane simply was pointing out the material that ian.thompson apparently hadn't seen, as based on this statement of his:
... If you want to have them connected to the Githyanki or Githzerai, they could possibly be the inbred mutant descendants of some Githyanki that got stuck a long time ago (common explanation), but I haven't seen anything actually saying the Gith are related to the Githyanki or Githzerai, just almost everyone assuming they are...
What I did was hope for the best, but fear for the worst ;)
Motivationally: they are the scavangers of the wastelands, smart enough to pick easy targets or find weaknesses to exploit strong ones. There's a saying "...like Gith to a dying braxat", which pokes fun at the scavanger species' tactics and their speed to take advantage of weakened beasts. Watch some videos of Lions or Hyenas finding food on youtube for some inspiration (if you have the stomach).
Psionically: I don't know of any one reason why Gith are so strong psionically, except that they live on Athas. But I've always seen that as grotesque user of the Will and the Way... a preversion of sorts. Sort of like this:
They are somewhat the polar opposites of "the Order" or Githzerai. Both of these groups view psionics, and their application, and a means to perfect one's "self". Gith, on the other hand, have no such dreams. They are constantly reproducing, each spawning widely mutated variations of their parents. This often produces horrid gith spawn, that die quickly out of the womb, where they are eventually consumed by their peers. Other gith are spawned normally, and follow the wants and needs of their tribes. Occationally and randomly, gith spawn have powerful psionic wild talents that elevate above others. They become the leaders and warlords of their particular tribes, leading them to pillage and consume and expand until Templars eventually put a stop to them.
Gith tribes are somewhat nomadic. They rarely leave the protective confines of canyons and wastes where they breed. Small crevises are often hidden enough to protect the many spawn. These areas also provide a multitude of places to ambush their natural enemies: Tareks, Braxat, Kenku or merchant caravans.
Gith will eventually produce enough spawn to lead them out of their protective canyon lands. These tribes pour out into the unsuspecting country side, consuming, defiling and pillaging along the way until their numbers fade away.
They are somewhat the polar opposites of "the Order" or Githzerai. Both of these groups view psionics, and their application, and a means to perfect one's "self". Gith, on the other hand, have no such dreams. They are constantly reproducing, each spawning widely mutated variations of their parents. This often produces horrid gith spawn, that die quickly out of the womb, where they are eventually consumed by their peers. Other gith are spawned normally, and follow the wants and needs of their tribes. Occationally and randomly, gith spawn have powerful psionic wild talents that elevate above others. They become the leaders and warlords of their particular tribes, leading them to pillage and consume and expand until Templars eventually put a stop to them.
Gith tribes are somewhat nomadic. They rarely leave the protective confines of canyons and wastes where they breed. Small crevises are often hidden enough to protect the many spawn. These areas also provide a multitude of places to ambush their natural enemies: Tareks, Braxat, Kenku or merchant caravans.
Gith will eventually produce enough spawn to lead them out of their protective canyon lands. These tribes pour out into the unsuspecting country side, consuming, defiling and pillaging along the way until their numbers fade away.
Nice stuff Goon....very evocative. I like it!
Pennarin,
WTH? Spelljammer *NEVER* intruded on Athas.
The Crystal Sphere of Athas is officially "closed", there is no way to get to Athas with Spelljammers, and no modules brought them there
unless perhaps it was in that derisable crap "Spider Moon"? but most SJ fans ignore that pile of flop from Dragon/Dungeon, ugh
Or do you mean that ludicrous "halfling Kwisatz Haderach in space" bullcrap from the "offical history" of Athas the novels imposed? 
lol
I completely ignore the damn novels (bar some local colour, characters), "official" history, and lousy metaplot anyway.
Ravenloft makes sense, it can reach anywhere, that's part of what makes it so horrifying.
Planescape and Dark Sun?? not heard that one though.
Pennarin,
WTH? Spelljammer *NEVER* intruded on Athas.
The Crystal Sphere of Athas is officially "closed", there is no way to get to Athas with Spelljammers, and no modules brought them there
unless perhaps it was in that derisable crap "Spider Moon"? but most SJ fans ignore that pile of flop from Dragon/Dungeon, ugh
Or do you mean that ludicrous "halfling Kwisatz Haderach in space" bullcrap from the "offical history" of Athas the novels imposed?
I completely ignore the damn novels (bar some local colour, characters), "official" history, and lousy metaplot anyway.
Ravenloft makes sense, it can reach anywhere, that's part of what makes it so horrifying.
Planescape and Dark Sun?? not heard that one though.
Maybe they came to Athas the old-fashion way; on a space-craft.
WTH? Spelljammer *NEVER* intruded on Athas. The Crystal Sphere of Athas is officially "closed", there is no way to get to Athas with Spelljammers, and no modules brought them there.
Page 13 of "The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook" says:
-
- Athas. The World of the DARK SUN (tm) campaign is not on the spacelanes where Realmspace, Krynnspace, and Greyspace can be found. No spelljammer travels its skies; no ancient tome tells of the routes to its crystal sphere. Whether it is unreachable by spelljammer or merely so far from these worlds that any journey would take lifetimes is unknown.
-
- The current inhabitants of Athas have no knowledge of spelljamming. There is no way to know whether the closely guarded library of some sorcerer-king conceals an ancient tome revealing the basic concepts of wildspace. Even if such a tome were found, the defiling power of such powerful magic would certainly wreak havoc on the fragile balance of life on Athas.
I was always a proponent of Athas being part of its own cosmos, not linked to the standard AD&D multiverse, so I don't really recall any specifics beyond the above.
unless perhaps it was in that derisable crap "Spider Moon"? but most SJ fans ignore that pile of flop from Dragon/Dungeon, ugh
Actually, as a fan of Spelljammer, I thought "Spider Moon" was awesome. And I don't know how Spider Moon could include any mention of Athas, as SM was a "reboot" of SJ that made no mention of any other settings, crystal spheres, etc.
(Also, I thought the butthurt by some in the SJ community over Erik Mona's editiorial on the old setting was as ridiculous as the screeching butthurt by some of our own forum members about Paizo's version of DS.)
Planescape and Dark Sun?? not heard that one though.
IIRC, the core Planescape rulebook had special rules for Athasian characters.
I used to have the supplement for spelljammer that dealt with the closed sphere that Athas is within, which had strange things like SK's on other worlds within the sphere, and other such nonsense.
Yep, there was a fan made supplement. Google "The Crimson Sphere". Actually, not too bad; pretty clever, though definitely goofy in parts (where it ended up kind-of being "Sorcerer-Kings...in Spaaaaaaace!").
I'm reasonably sure in the 1st Dark Sun boxed set it said Athas was a closed sphere? some spheres can be completely closed with no portals
Complete Spacefarer makes the intention know: Dark Sun isn't for spelljammers :p (with good reason)
Apparently The Astromundi Cluster boxed set for Spelljammer refferences Dark Sun someplace, need ot dig my copy out oen day I guess, but Astromundi was weird.
one of the many messes Spider Moon did was to make plain ugly ship designs fomo the original beautiful ones, blech!!! ;)
It's your game; you can do what you want with it.
Personally, I find people travelling around in space on boat unrealistic, but to each his own.
I don't see the big deal here; if you like SJ, then included it in your games. If you don't, then don't.
It's your game; you can do what you want with it.
Personally, I find people travelling around in space on boat unrealistic, but to each his own.
very true!
but hey' it's fantasy, flying around in space IS fantasy and in fantasy, nothing is "Unrealistic" sinc it's not...real ;)
Ravenloft makes sense, it can reach anywhere, that's part of what makes it so horrifying.
Planescape and Dark Sun?? not heard that one though.
Didn't an article in Polyhedron or the like have a portal to Sigil from Dark Sun? Something like a back room door could function as a portal if the person had the right key? I want to say it was something metal, so it would be very difficult for any Athasian to have but I don't remember for sure.
turlough
Oh, and once, I played a Mul Ranger-Scout for the Evil Army in Dragonlance...
I'm sure somewhere on Athas, there's a Star-Gate.
Also known as Dregoth's Planar Gate :P
Sigil has portals to everywhere, so what? problem is many can't be opened as the key isn't known or opens rarely
Draegoth is...unique, him having a portal is the "exception that proves the rule".
Demons like vrock were mentioned in 2nd ed era (least in the computer games) and you have Black Spine, so in 4th ed, having demons makes good sense due to the fact Athas is VERY elemental-related, and now demons are too.
Athas is a landscape where demons are winning their war to destroy reality....etc.
Athas is a landscape where demons are winning their war to destroy reality....etc.
Huh? Since when? Doesn't sound like darksun at all.
Athas is a landscape where demons are winning their war to destroy reality....etc.
Huh? Since when? Doesn't sound like darksun at all.
Um, you do realize that Athas is dying, don't you? ;)
Athas is a landscape where demons are winning their war to destroy reality....etc.
Huh? Since when? Doesn't sound like darksun at all.
Um, you do realize that Athas is dying, don't you? ;)
What does that have to do with demons?
You need to take Silverblade and Dragonhelm (IIRC) with a grain of...the proverbial mineral of otherworldliness: most posts of these two fine gents mix up Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and Planescape (planar travel to other D&D settings) along with their Dark Sun.
In all honesty, I do the same thing. It's hard to remember fine detail and keep everything separated when you're involved with so many different settings. I usually have to avoid as many settings as possible while working on a project. So I don't end up with Hamanu, the dragonmarked deathknight of sigil whos spelljammer crash landed on athas, causing his cargo of mystaran solar to escape, infecting athasians with the quadron steam-mist of ravenloft, which ended up turning them into half markeen - half grung-folk. Because when that happens, it's never pretty.
You need to take Silverblade and Dragonhelm (IIRC) with a grain of...the proverbial mineral of otherworldliness: most posts of these two fine gents mix up Spelljammer, Ravenloft, and Planescape (planar travel to other D&D settings) along with their Dark Sun.
Oi! No I do not, so, hey, watch it kank-lover!
hehe (meant in fun)I've been a fan of both settings from the start, I have most of the material, but I do not mix them, ever.
Full platemail giff with blunderbusses do not fit with Athas's schtick at all.
I don't object to a DM having some weird adventure where a Spelljammer ship ends up in Athas-space, but in general I think it's extremely bad if anyone allowed an easy way to Athas from most other settings.
I let two of my pal's characters escape Athas, but they had to go through the Abyss to do it! (Got themselves chased off Athas for getting King Kalak mad at them, personally, lol)
I never had Spelljammers in Athas, not only was it not cannon, but as DM, I think it would be appallingly bad and unecessary, SJ and DS are totally different styles of play best kept seperate. And as said, Dark Sun's crystal sphere is sealed, you can't enter it, in the cannon.
last thing you'd want would be like, metal smugglers, etc, ugh!!!
Sigil *DOES* have at least one portal to Dark Sun, go read the setting material.
Blackspine, an offical module, DOES have the githyanki entering Athas.
One of the two computer games of Athas, most of which follow the lore very closely, has an encounter in an old ruined temple, iirc, abandoned in distant past, that's still guarded by vrocks.
4th ed lore has the Abyss at the bottom of the Elemental Chaos. Athas is elementally linked, in 4th ed it seems especially so (primordials defeated the gods or drove 'em off). So, demons could reach Athas, and the offical stuff says as much (suitbale monsters include demons in the BLoodsand Arena stuff, as noted).
Duke,
the goal of demons, and Tharizdun who inadvertantly created them, (in 4th ed) is the destruction of everything. Athas has been largely destroyed!
Sigil *DOES* have at least one portal to Dark Sun, go read the setting material.
Love to! Got the book name and page number handy? I love planescape but I don't wanna dig through my stuff.
Blackspine, an offical module, DOES have the githyanki entering Athas.
Yup, via the nightmare gate, from the astral plane. That was an interesting adventure, to say the least.
4th ed lore has the Abyss at the bottom of the Elemental Chaos. Athas is elementally linked, in 4th ed it seems especially so (primordials defeated the gods or drove 'em off). So, demons could reach Athas, and the offical stuff says as much (suitbale monsters include demons in the BLoodsand Arena stuff, as noted).
Can't wait to read the adventure for myself and figure out if it is official 4e DS lore.
Duke,
the goal of demons, and Tharizdun who inadvertantly created them, (in 4th ed) is the destruction of everything. Athas has been largely destroyed!
But they're not connected. The changes athas has gone through has nothing to do with tharizdun or demons.
Duke,
the goal of demons, and Tharizdun who inadvertantly created them, (in 4th ed) is the destruction of everything. Athas has been largely destroyed!
Correlation is not causation. Just because the demons want the destruction of everything, and Athas is mostly destroyed, does not mean that the demons mostly destroyed Athas...