1.) Templars: Are they PC or NPC? Are they the Devine Classes? How do thier mechanics work?
2.) Races: What are the new Races and how do they fit in the 4e world?
3.) Defiling: Anything new on Defiliers and/or their mechanics?
4.) Elemental Priests (or Shamans): How does 4e handle the Elemental Priests of old?
5.) How does the harshness of the wastes affect the characters? i.e.: Lack of water? Mid-day heat?
6.) Somebody please ask Rich Baker the following: "Will there be Dark Sun Mini's and when will they be released?"
7.) Will there be more published Dark Sun Adventures besides "Marauders of the Dune Sea" and when will they be released?
8.) Wild Talents: Do they exist?
I'm sure many others have questions they'd like answered, so I invite all who have Dark Sun 4e questions to post here for attendies to answer for us. Those of you who are attending, it is your duty to spread the word of all that you see at D&D Exp. regarding Dark Sun 4e or the entire Dark Sun fan community will send you to the slave pits.
No pressure. Thank you in advance.
1. Templars are NPC's. No divine source on DS
3. Preserving is default to arcane characters. They will have an option to improve at-wills at the cost of defilling
7. Besides the Marauders of dune sea and the mini adventure on the campaign guide no plublished adventures, but you can expect dungeon magazine suport
It would be nice if someone was twittering the con....
Somebody buy me the shirt! PM for payment arrangements, lol.
ddxp.baldmangames.com/CritHitsTourShirtM...
I guess i can give you some upfront aswers from what i heard/read around
It would be nice if someone was twittering the con....
Nobody is twittering the con? WTH
In this day and age I thought people would be video recording/cameraphoning/ipad thingy it."We won't be doing a whole set of just Dark Sun minis but expect to see Dark Sun themed minis in future minis releases."
At least there's going to be something for us to use.
At least there's going to be something for us to use.
From Geek's dream girl's live blog:
Geek's Dream Girl: Oooh, I get a feature power. New to Dark Sun. It's Arcane Defiling. "You draw upon the vitality of nearby life to fuel your magic, heedless of the harm you cause to the land and your allies."
For the Arcane Defiling:
Trigger: You make an attack roll or damage roll as part of an arcane daily attack power.
Effect: You can reroll the triggering roll and you must use the second result, but each ally within 20 squares of you takes damage equal to half his or her healing surge value. This damage cannot be reduced in any way.
Special: You can use this power to reroll each attack roll or damage roll only once.
Geek's Dream Girl: There are weapon breaking rules!! If you roll a 1, there's a good chance your weapon is going to break.
Geek's Dream Girl: I'm a Templar, so I get an encounter power based on that theme.
Geek's Dream Girl: My Templar Attack 1: Templar's Fist
You command your foe to submit, crushign his spirit and slowing his flight. The same power that compels your foe to despair fills a nearby ally with brutal zeal.
Standard Action, close burst 5
Target - one creature in burst
Attack - +7 with Will
Hit 1d10 +5 psychic damage, and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn.
Effect: The next ally to hit and damage the target of this power with an attack before the end of your next turn gains a +3 power bonus on all attack rolls until the end of its next turn.
Geek's Dream Girl: Ew, there are attack cacti that latch on to people and drink their fluids. Gross.
Geek's Dream Girl: I made a darkworm feast get all feasting on the id fiend. OM nom nom.
Sorcerer King Pact:
Geek's Dream Girl: Fell Scorn: You have the Fell Scorn pact boon, allowing you to draw upon your sorcerer-king's magical prowess to augment a power using Fell Scorn. You start each encounter with 1 Fell Scorn use. You can augment any power that is augmentable by your Fell Scorn ( see power description). You must decide to augment a power before you roll the attack.
When a nonminion creature under your warlock's curse drops to 0 hit points, your pact boon triggers, recharging your use of Fell Scorn. You can only have one use of Fell Scorn at a time.
I use Fell Scorn with Hand of Blight and get an extra 1d8 psychic damage. Pretty nice. :-)
Please report all of your findings here regarding Dark Sun. Here are but a few questions I'd like answered:
1.) Templars: Are they PC or NPC? Are they the Devine Classes? How do thier mechanics work?
2.) Races: What are the new Races and how do they fit in the 4e world?
3.) Defiling: Anything new on Defiliers and/or their mechanics?
4.) Elemental Priests (or Shamans): How does 4e handle the Elemental Priests of old?
5.) How does the harshness of the wastes affect the characters? i.e.: Lack of water? Mid-day heat?
6.) Somebody please ask Rich Baker the following: "Will there be Dark Sun Mini's and when will they be released?"
7.) Will there be more published Dark Sun Adventures besides "Marauders of the Dune Sea" and when will they be released?
8.) Wild Talents: Do they exist?
I'm sure many others have questions they'd like answered, so I invite all who have Dark Sun 4e questions to post here for attendies to answer for us. Those of you who are attending, it is your duty to spread the word of all that you see at D&D Exp. regarding Dark Sun 4e or the entire Dark Sun fan community will send you to the slave pits.
Thank you in advance.
There have been some answers, but the information is limited:
1. Templars are a character theme. Not sure how this works, but there are other themes including gladiator, elemental priest, wilder, and veiled alliance. We do know for certain that you're encouraged to take a theme that fits your character class (implement vs. weapon, etc.) and that you get at least 1 1st level encounter power from your theme. From the scuttlebut at DDXP, it seems that most templars are actually warlocks who have taken the sorcerer king pact.
2. The mul and thri-kreen are definitely in. Half-giants are reskinned goliaths. There haven't been any other new races leaked.
3. Defiling is an option open to any arcane class. Basically, as an at-will power you can reroll your attack roll, but it will damage your allies within a 20 square radius.
4. See #1.
5. I haven't seen any word of that, though there are weapon breakage rules.
6. I can't remember for certain, but I think there will be some Athasian minis.
7. I didn't see any others announced, but I'm sure Dungeon will eventually feature some.
8. See #1
Here are scans to the character sheets from DDXP
Sweet! Thanks everybody for keeping us informed when you find some information. Like what I'm seeing... but am a little confused why they won't be releasing all of this until August. What else do they have to do...?
I'm sure its not 100% done at this point, though its probably pretty close to completion (the adventure and creature catalog are probably less far along than the CS book at this point). The August release date was probably selected to coincide with Gencon; the good news is that in March, the DDI previews switches from the PHB3 to Dark Sun.
. Here's what I think of what I've seen so far:
Defiling: I had a different idea but I think it works well mechanically. If you miss, you can defile to roll your attack again much like Elven Accuracy. Or if you hit but roll $hitty damage and want to do more, you can defile your damage roll to re-roll the damage. Plus I like the hurting your allies part of it.
Themes: Seems to be Dark Sun's version of the "Background" found in the other generic settings and the Character Builder. I like what I see so far but when it came to the Elemental Priest's, I was hoping for a specific Earth, Air, Fire or Water Priest rather than just one "Jack of all Elements Priests."
Mul/Half-Giant/Thri-Kreen: Mul was easy enough to encorporate as they're not drastically different from any other tough humanoid race. Half-Giant as a re-skinned Goliath is fine but I'll miss my classic 12ft tall Half-Giant characters. It was just plain fun to be that big. I liked the more mantis Thri-Kreen but I can make do with these more humanoid type. Dropping their poison and the effectiveness of their two other arms was a correct move as it might be too O.P. for 4e as it was in 2e
No Divine Power: So we can play a Templar and not have a Divine power source because the templar is a Sorcerer-King Pact, Warlock. Makes sense to me and I applaud WotC to remain true to the setting with no Divinity and make such a bold ruling. I think the S.K. Pact Warlock makes sense from just that one character sheet.
Overall Thoughts So Far: Still haven't seen it all, but I like what I'm seeing so far. I'm happy that what they're doing doesn't take 4e away from it's core, but it's all reworked to give a more Athasian feel in its mechanics. Yes, there are things I wish were done differently but if they were done to my liking I believe there would be a lot more rule consulting in game which is what WotC wants to get away from with 4e. Nothing so far has made me jump out of my seat and yell, "BLASPHEMY!!!" However there is still more mechanics that have yet to be released so we'll have to see about that. I'm excited so far.
Let's hear about more if there is more to tell and what I'd also like to hear is from those of you that played their Dark Sun adventure. How did it all play out? Did it feel like Dark Sun or did it just seem like another generic world with an extra encounter power? I know that can be dependent on the DM you have but was it fun? Tell us your thoughts. Us unfortunate people who can't attend must know.
Thank you again.
I can already see Arcane Defiling being house ruled to affect allies and enemies within 20 squares.
You're right. Why would it only affect your Allies? That doesn't make sense. It's not like you would defile by only pulling the life force from your friends. If you could do that, you'd instead zap it from your enemies if you really had a choice. Defiling is the drain of all that's around you, not just specific people. I say it should be house ruled that all are affected in a 20 yrd radius. It only makes sense and can make things far more interesting.
I think its allies only for two reasons. Its effectively at-will auto-damage if you also apply it to enemies within 20 squares (very broken IMO), and thus, if you're doing massive amounts of at-will auto damage to your enemies, it becomes a much easier choice for arcane PCs to make.
Also, the additional damage caused by defiling against enemies is folded into the reroll of the triggering attack and damage rolls.
critical-hits.com/2010/01/29/dd-xp-2010-...
Talks about weapon breakage too...pretty simple...I like it.
Rich Baker's second project when he first started at TSR was a Dark Sun sourcebook, and even worked on such books as Will and the Way
Rob Schwalb is a freelance designer for WotC and also took lion's share of design.
Baker re-familiarized himself with the Dark Sun setting before working on it again, like visiting Athas.org conversion & Wanderer's Journal
Original setting pulled more from Conan and Barsoom than LotR. Fantasy world different than what was done before. More savage & dangerous
Athas in Seven Sentences (pic to come later), 4e setting had to follow all of them or else they did it wrong.
Area covered in Athas is "smaller than the state of Texas" unlike other settings.
Trying to take all the parts that original Dark Sun fans loved and take them back to their first exposure.
Dark Sun Campaign Guide: 8/2010, 224pgs, 2 new races, 10 character themes, paragon paths, feats, and gear.
Extensive Atlas of Athas, short intro adventure, plus material on DMing a Dark Sun game. Societies and flavor of the world.
Incorporates "Cutting edge D&D tech" incl. new traps and terrain powers, revised skill challenges, etc.
Theme is like a template for characters of any class. Things like Gladiators extend to all classes, so need another mechanic beyond classes
Themes give one encounter power, as well as powers you can substitute your class powers for. Some limits & restrictions
Gladiator gives a "controller theme" so it's a backdoor way to get into a martial controller.
Themes might make their way into core #dnd - could represent something like a Pirate.
Creature Catalog: 144pg softcover, 50+ Dark Sun monsters in 120 varities. 7 Sorcerer-Kings and Dragon of Tyr. +Templates, hazards, etc
Retailers gave feedback that players wanted more of the description of the world in the book that they read for campaign guides
They said the free encounter power is balanced in Dark Sun with the harshness of the setting.
Insights from Monster Manual 3 design were used in Creature Catalog. More flavor, more story, integration with hazards, other hooks
Marauders of the Dune Sea, 32pg adventure for 1-3rd level Dark Sun characters, designed by @brucecordell
DDI: Monthly support for Dark Sun. Maybe not an adventure for every month, but split between adventures for Dungeon and options in Dragon
List of setting questions is up- pic to come later. Things like using dungeons in Dark Sun, role of Gods, handling Dragons, etc.
On things like gnomes that weren't in 2e, specifically left out for DM to handle, but it's not a core assumption.
Q on Cosmology: decided to include core D&D cosmology. Part of the reason was for monster origins. Not that far from original Dark Sun cosmo
Shadowfell is close to the Gray, magic deserts and remaining forests relate to the Feywild.
Half-Giants (Goliaths) will no longer have fluctuating alignment... of course.
Dragonborn "aren't just bolted on", and Tieflings will be there as well, both with hooks back to the original setting.
One of the themes emphasizes Psionic wild talent.
Wild talents can also get some "cantrip-level" psionic talents.
In Dark Sun, trying to downplay the importance of magic items, and will use the options from DMG2 to achieve this.
Mul is +2 Con and other choice +2 Str OR Wis. Edge against condition/status stuff.
3. Defiling is an option open to any arcane class. Basically, as an at-will power you can reroll your attack roll, but it will damage your allies within a 20 square radius.
Just going off the above with this: You are a preserver until you actually defile. No need to choose a "feat mechanic". You either defile or you don't. I would imagine you could have the SK pact and chose not to defile.
Here are the implications:
- 2E's idea of templars as clerics that serve the sorcerer-kings (SKs) and get their powers from them was both a nice and bad one. Nice for obvious reasons, bad because it made templars just like...clerics. No change from other settings.
- 2E's SKs were supposed to use powerful defilers that had free run of their city, and they seemed to be preferred above using templars...yet they never were more powerful than templars, were less loyal (heck, a templar could lose the spellcasting powers it got from his SK, while a self-powered defiler is a loose canon)...so why prefer them, except to support the setting's mythology about wizard magic being superior to other forms of spellcasting?
- 2E books, stories, and novels often pointed to the idea that templars were seen as defilers themselves, ideologically-speaking, as they served the SKs.
- Templars are defined as empowered (either supernatural or political) servants of the SKs, be they administrators, military officers, or spellcasters; one can even better use 3E's splintering of the templar category into templar and templar knight (the latter covering martial-oriented characters and fitting well with swordmage).
- All magic users that serve the SKs will now use the arcane power source, so a lot more templars will actually be defilers, a more realistic execution upon the setting's mythology that the SKs surround themselves with defilers and reject other forms of magic use, as the other uses imply pacts and loyalties the SK cannot control.
- Now the populace can truly fear and loathe templars, for a lot of them actually are defilers (that is...all templars who aren't using the martial power source).
At first, I was hesitant about the thought that Templars aren't divine spellcasters, but I've warmed to it after thinking on it some more. It makes a bit more thematic sense that they'd be something more like a Warlock in 4e terms. I'm still not entirely sold on the thought that there is no divine power source, but I guess that the elemental clerics could be replaced by "thematic changes" to other classes.
The pregens show some interesting mechanics. Weapon breakage and inherent bonuses solve the magic problems pretty elegantly. Breakage is a bit 4E in the "nothing bad unless you choose risk" way, but still works nicely. Themes seem really cool. From what I understood, it is just a DS thing, like the way we had free psionics. You pick a theme (Wild Talent, Templar, Elemental Priest, Veiled Alliance, and Gladiator were the ones I noted) and you get one encounter power and a few other things. I suspect it is a feet tree concept with a few other things. My half-giant fighter's gladiator power was the ability to push a foe, knock them prone, and all adjacent to it and the target were slowed. Sort of a bar-room brawl move where you knock one guy into the others. It was a pretty cool tactical move when I used it, locking down the foes and sealing their doom.
Defiling was hard to assess. The player at my table was just getting a feel for playing and it didn't come up. But, it can be a good option to re-roll a daily that way.
The thri-kreen seemed cool. My half-giant... I heavily RPd my PC and still didn't feel "big". It felt weak RP-wise compared to using giant minis in my old DS games... I think I would house-rule that part in a home game and tone something down to compensate. Giving them reach would be another option. But, using a goliath mini did not do it for me.
The new warlock pact seemed cool, but it was hard to determine how often the pact boon can be used. On the pregen just the At-Will was enhanced (nice enhancement, but I don't like at-will spamming).
Everyone should note that in 13 or so weeks we get the second of the Excursions programs and this will be a Dark Sun series. 12 weeks of 1-2 hours of official DS is something many of us on these boards would have given a kidney for...
The seminars made it clear that the game will get tremendous support. Eberron had no love, but DS gets several adventures and articles in each Dragon/Dungeon? Amazing and mouth-watering. "Kindrok want more!"
The seminars made it clear that the game will get tremendous support. Eberron had no love, but DS gets several adventures and articles in each Dragon/Dungeon? Amazing and mouth-watering. "Kindrok want more!"
As I posted in another thread, that's all well and good with the support from Dragon/Dungeon and some articles, but I like to hold books. I like to flip through pages of material and modules. It's just not the same when I have to open up a 3-ring binder and flip through pages I printed out myself. Wouldn't WotC make more money selling books rather than allowing the players to print material out for free? (I know, we pay for DDi but it still feels "free.") I want to fill my bookshelves with books damn it, not 3-ring binders.
I suspect that will not change greatly in the next few years. Dragon/Dungeon allow them some latitude, but a book for DS makes little sense. Any gaming company I have spoken to has said that all the money is in your rules set. Every book after that sees declining revenue which eventually requires a new version of the rules set to start the profitability over again. WotC seems to be trying to avoid this by keeping to a few campaign books (1-2) and then everything else is universal.
As I posted in another thread, that's all well and good with the support from Dragon/Dungeon and some articles, but I like to hold books. I like to flip through pages of material and modules. It's just not the same when I have to open up a 3-ring binder and flip through pages I printed out myself. Wouldn't WotC make more money selling books rather than allowing the players to print material out for free? (I know, we pay for DDi but it still feels "free.") I want to fill my bookshelves with books damn it, not 3-ring binders.
The books are nice, until you have to move around. After packing & unpacking my RPG books for the 8th time, it had definitely gotten old.
I've come to really enjoy the WotC idea of having PDF's available for most (if not all) of their materials. Carrying around a laptop (or netbook, or eReader, or even the iPad once Apple supports Linux with iTunes) with all of the materials I need at my fingertips is far more useful to me as a DM than lugging around a ton of books from place to place.
So, basically, for me.... I think I like the electronic versions of books in most situations.
At a seminar last March, the WotC designers (Andy and Rob) were very clear that they felt that it made little business sense to create world-specific books. "Dragons of Eberron" was a bad idea, but "Draconomicon" handling dragons and mentioning various campaign worlds was a good idea.
I suspect that will not change greatly in the next few years. Dragon/Dungeon allow them some latitude, but a book for DS makes little sense. Any gaming company I have spoken to has said that all the money is in your rules set. Every book after that sees declining revenue which eventually requires a new version of the rules set to start the profitability over again. WotC seems to be trying to avoid this by keeping to a few campaign books (1-2) and then everything else is universal.
And this is a perfect example as to why I am not at the helm of WotC. I will thus enjoy my 3-ring binder. lol
Color e-ink eReaders are the future. Tablet PCs are nice too, but they can't compete on the niche of people wanting to read books for hours without frying their eyes with projected light. I like my eyes ;)
I'd love to see some affordable color e-Ink reader on the market. Especially with a screen that is a standard sheet of paper in size would be great.
Just two things: I am not entirely certain that the technology for color e-Ink is completely there yet, and most eReaders tend to be about the size of a small notepad.
Sure, you're right about the tech not being there yet, but two of the fastest fields of technological advancement in the current consumer electronics market are eReaders and giant tv displays, so give it time. Two years ago there was but Amazon's Kindle, now Wiki's page on eReaders lists a boatload of them.
True enough. The tech's starting to roll out, it's just a matter of time.
Yep, I use my ebook reader all the time. It's great; got me reading all the classic literature out there because it was for free download. If I could put my D&D books on there, it'd be even better. But the display is too small for that, so it's a moot point.
On topic: sounds pretty cool. I would never houserule the "defiling damages everyone" stuff in there; that would just be crazy powerful. As for Templars=Warlocks, well... we'll see. Sounds like they don't have to, it's only that the pregen Templar happened to be a Warlock.
The only downside of that would be that it could affect monsters with surges a little and if the PCs were completely out of surges, they could use it with no ill effect - but thematically I think surges could have worked about as well.
On the Templar=Warlock thing, I'd bet we'll see other templars too - I wouldn't be surprised to see Tithian as a Psion with the templar template.
I wonder how they handle the loss of a SK and SK pact warlocks? Having them lose their power is very different mechanically than every other warlock pact....
On Templars: Rich Baker's blog mentions that Templars are a theme that you can add to a class.
Ditto for the templar and other class possibilities we were examining; sure, you might expect to see a lot of spellcasters choosing the templar theme, but there’s no reason your fighter or rogue couldn’t be a templar. Your fighter-templar might be a soldier in the sorcerer-king’s guard, while the rogue might be a templar spy. Becoming a templar means that you gain at least a modest ability to wield the king’s magic (that’s your theme encounter power), and of course you might decide to color your power selection at higher levels with the occasional templar power in place of your fighter or rogue powers.
but the real question will be what the warlocks and templars of tyr look like. in the original setting the death of kalak meant all the templars lost their spells. it will seem a little jarring to me if all the sk warlocks and templars keep their granted powers but fourth edition really doesnt support the idea that a pc just suddenly loses access to all his powers
yeah i just meant that i bet some of the in print npcs will definitely be other things.
but the real question will be what the warlocks and templars of tyr look like. in the original setting the death of kalak meant all the templars lost their spells. it will seem a little jarring to me if all the sk warlocks and templars keep their granted powers but fourth edition really doesnt support the idea that a pc just suddenly loses access to all his powers
Not to read too much into it, but the D&DXP sample adventure had a warlock with the SK pact, then Kalak dies, and there is no change. I suspect that this will be the case for anyone. Maybe it becomes more of a vestige-driven pact (latent/residue energy) than active, but still driven by the power involved. In some ways, the write-ups for pacts in Dragon make it seem as if the pact is all about driving a bargain, the person you bargained with gives you power and access to knowledge, and then you could be on your own and still progress. The SK can just be what started you off, which still makes for interesting RP. You entered a bargain with Kalak, now he is dead, yet you must honor the bargain nonetheless...
Hmm, wasn't the SK pact warlock from the DDXP adventure templar of Nibenay, not Kalak? So Kalak's death naturally didn't affect her... >.>
Good catch! You are right.
Correct me if Im wrong, but were not all Templars from Nibenay and the Shadow King, Women?
Correct me if Im wrong, but were not all Templars from Nibenay and the Shadow King, Women?
Yes they were. Very hot and naked women.
Nibiney is such a perv. 
sure, you might expect to see a lot of spellcasters choosing the templar theme
This ensures I will never have anything to do with 4th ed Dark Sun. Seriously, WTF? Templars, the holy warriors of the sorcerer-kings, are defilers? This makes zero sense.
Becoming a templar means that you gain at least a modest ability to wield the king’s magic (that’s your theme encounter power)
Oh that's so awesome. So I get to have this gigantic in character title, but then I just get to ignore that because all I really want is the encounter power.
People rant about 4th ed being all about the crunch and ignoring all fluff considerations, and this is exactly what they're talking about. Fortunately you can have a roleplaying game with no mechanics or even on a WoW server. So despite any deficiencies in the system, you can still roleplay. That said, I will not be defending 4th ed anymore to the 4th ed haters.
Yes they were. Very hot and naked women. Nibiney is such a perv.
I can't even begin to describe my disgust for the game you all call Dark Sun. I thought Dark Sun rocked, until I started reading about it. But it wasn't until this thread that I realised how awful it truly is.
No offence directed at anyone here. But if you want to play a game that's reminiscent of Dark Sun, check out a game called ArmageddonMUD. A google search will bring you to the website immediately. Its so much better than anything I've heard about Dark Sun, despite the fact it was inspired by Dark Sun way back in 1991.
For all those who take offence by the tone of this post, imagine this scenario. You've been told that for Christmas Santa is going to bring you the greatest toy you've ever wanted. You get excited about it, you talk about it for years (ever since 4th ed came out). You rant and rave about how awesome this toy will be and convince your friends to come over on Christmas day and play it with you. And then when Christmas finally comes you race to the tree and find a toy that's shaped perfectly like the perfect toy you've ever wanted. You rip open the wrapping paper, barely able to contain yourself when you discover instead of getting that toy, you instead have a stinking pile of turd.
That's how I feel about Dark Sun and more specifically the 4th ed incarnation of it. I expected the Greatest Campaign Setting EVER!!! and instead, I feel like I'm being handed a turd. Sure maybe that's a bit strong, but in comparison to the Greatest Campaign Setting EVER!!! it sure looks and feels like a turd to me.
Dark sun really doesn't have that many good people in it. With the exception of heroes in the novels and the PCs of just the group that happens to be playing, there really aren't any heroes. With the exception of Oronis (who isn't so much good as just doesn't really care but thinks fixing the planet would be a good idea), anyone that's in charge is a very very bad person. Nibenay happens to exploit women (although I can't find anything about them being naked). The setting isn't any sort of politically correct, just like most of our world hasn't been for most of it's history. Women are generally treated as property when possible on Earth and Athas. It's the bad guys, what are they supposed to do, give everyone equal rights but still be evil because they're wearing a black hat?
And the templars weilding encounter powers is part of the fluff. They wear treated as clerics in 2e for a reason, they got their spells from the sorcerer-kings instead of proper gods. It's like complaining when someone points out "paladins get lay on hands." Templars work for giant defilers, they get their spells from these giant defilers, most defilers that weren't executed survive because they got jobs working for the sorcerer-kings. It makes perfect sense if you've actually studied the setting. Except for Oronis, the sorcerer-kings don't give a damn about defiling except that any magic (not just defiling) poses a threat to their rule. The at least second or third time you've complained about this, IIRC. The problem isn't Dark Sun, it's that you didn't know what a 20 year old campaign setting was about.
However, the concept of all Nibenese templars being married to the Shadow King is interesting and could present a good political dynamic - something that I would definitely be exploring. Killing a sorcerer-king's templar is bad enough, but killing a wife of the SK might get a player on his "to-kill" list even faster.
Note that for thousands of years many cultures had their women be bare-chested, and some still do. Those cultures do not put a sexual emphasis on the estethics of breasts, like the modern Western world does. So it shouldn't be a turnoff for female players, unless the male players are total dicks about it.
Denning's description of templars, and that of the books, does vary.
Note that for thousands of years many cultures had their women be bare-chested, and some still do. Those cultures do not put a sexual emphasis on the estethics of breasts, like the modern Western world does. So it shouldn't be a turnoff for female players, unless the male players are total dicks about it.
I agree, but I'm not sure WOTC is going to include this (the women being bare chested that is) in this edition. Quite easy for them to have changed this.
This ensures I will never have anything to do with 4th ed Dark Sun. Seriously, WTF? Templars, the holy warriors of the sorcerer-kings, are defilers? This makes zero sense.
Defilers often work in secret. And not all of them necessarily have to be defilers.
Not all templars were holy warriors in the previous editions, many were the pieces of the city's bureaucracy (scribes, academics, etc.). All working to further the ends of their particular SK (and their own).
on a side note...wasn't the bare chest of the nibenese wives a sign of their association to the shadow king? like a status thing? another reason i liked dark sun was due to the variety of culture. they all had different social standards and cultural histories unique to themselves. the oba of gulg vs. nibenay and his wives vs. androponis and his council etc. to me, being offended by the breasts of a nibenese templar (who all tended to be the shadow king's wives) is like being offended by south american tribeswomen for not having tops.
This ensures I will never have anything to do with 4th ed Dark Sun. Seriously, WTF? Templars, the holy warriors of the sorcerer-kings, are defilers? This makes zero sense.
Templars are not defilers in 4E. A Templar arcane spellcaster might be able to be (unless defiler is also a theme), but the other types of templars aren't. Back in 2E it was quite common to see templar/defiler multi-classed characters. Remember that the SKs are defilers themselves and did allow some of thier follows to be defilers, while crushing any who weren't on their side.
Oh that's so awesome. So I get to have this gigantic in character title, but then I just get to ignore that because all I really want is the encounter power.
The problem there lies not with the system but the DM - no DM worth their salt should allow anyone to get away with that. It would be no different that a 2E templar taking the class then completely ignoring the SK. In both cases the DM/SK would be well with in their rights to have the errant Templar *punished*. Probably with extreme prejudice as an example for others to keep in line.
First off, Penn does have it right, there are many cultures across the world that don't regard bare-breasts like the western world (for those that think otherwise, you've obviously never picked up a copy of National Geographic magazine - which is very educational, really). Nibenay is not modeled after a western civilization - acutally most of the city-states are modeled after non-european ancient civilizations: Egypt, China, Aztec, Zulu, etc... If you happen to find some non-Christian concepts, please don't be surprised or angry, the setting was designed to be non-Christian, non-European, non-traditional fantasy.
Secondly, as with most issues, there is more to the "bare-chested" story than meets the eye. Yes, Nibenay (the king) is a perv: the king likes his women and likes them naked. He picks them when they're at a ripe young age and has his way with any of his wives at any time. If this is bad, he's a bad man. I personally find this much less revolting than some of the horrid things going on in Tyr (pre-Kalak) or Draj... but that's just me.
From a different point of view, the Templars of Nibenay are treated excellently (with respect to other city-states). Nibenay gives them plenty of freedom, and allows them to run the city as they see fit. The system has very little corruption, and is very fair (again w.r.t. other cities). Templars of Nibenay very infrequently travel outside of the confines of the walls of the palace (the Naggarkaram, sp?), and only the highest priestesses of the city walk completely bare-breasted or naked - and these priestesses travel rarely if ever. The lowest level-tiered Templars wear uniforms and close as is the style of the city. Also, there is no law forbidding the wives to ramain bare chested or even stop them from covetting other men (so long as Nibenay isn't hindered). The city is NOT like the Playboy mansion, the palace is a different matter.
Actually, there's some amazingly fun and woman-oriented themes that can originate from this design. For example, being a city where the females make the law, means that female-rights are probably very modern! Do women have the final say in marriage vows? Do grooms have to pay a hefty bridal dowry? Are noble households also run by the wives? If all the women are judges, does a woman's say in disagreements have greater weight than a man's? Then women run the army, how does Nibenay's army reflect this?
I'm dismayed to report that as I am currently reading the Amber Enchantress, I can say that Nibenese templars are indeed described as bare-chested. Like JohnLynch, that is a trait that I am not too fond of. It'll turn off my female players from the setting, IMO, and I would remove that from my DS games if it ever gets into the Campaign Setting.
I don't understand why any female players would be possibly offended? First of all it's a fantasy setting and no Nibinese Templar threatens stealing a real life boyfriend. If you want to compare reality to such a setting than there's even more reason to not be offended. Just take a look at cultures where women are bare chested. They're hardly as good looking of a pair to those that hide them from the elements. See, nothing to get offended about.
...Wait we're talking Dark Sun right?
I'm stuck with the impression that Nibenay's wife-templars (and wearing less clothes, the higher in rank) are based on a historical archetype. I'd conduct an internet search, but that's probably not an appropriate one for work...
Actually, all of the SK's, and the city-states are based on some historical context.
I'm stuck with the impression that Nibenay's wife-templars (and wearing less clothes, the higher in rank) are based on a historical archetype. I'd conduct an internet search, but that's probably not an appropriate one for work...
I don't know of any relevant historical references from South East asia, where Nibenay is based, but I do know one general reference that might be relevant to some:
Many Mother Earth idols (statues) depicted throughout the world are based on bare-brested or completely nude, pregnant, motherly women. Search for "Mother Goddess" on wikipedia (if you know that nude statues are safe for work). The depictions are very different than the "sex symbols" portrayed in advertisements, on movies, etc... the ones that feminists tend to scorn.
I'm stuck with the impression that Nibenay's wife-templars (and wearing less clothes, the higher in rank) are based on a historical archetype. I'd conduct an internet search, but that's probably not an appropriate one for work...
Actually, all of the SK's, and the city-states are based on some historical context.
Yeah, Nibenay seems to be a mix between medieval Khmer (it *looks* just like an active Angkor Wat) and China, but I'm not aware of either of those having strong, female heads-of-state or military.
Regardless, it's very non-Western, and was never really played up as cheescake or sex appeal (see: the Ivory Triangle book covers, even most of the artwork). Nibenay's wives always seemed to be more of an element to reinforce how *not* traditional fantasy it was.
I'm stuck with the impression that Nibenay's wife-templars (and wearing less clothes, the higher in rank) are based on a historical archetype. I'd conduct an internet search, but that's probably not an appropriate one for work...
Actually, all of the SK's, and the city-states are based on some historical context.
Yeah, Nibenay seems to be a mix between medieval Khmer (it *looks* just like an active Angkor Wat) and China, but I'm not aware of either of those having strong, female heads-of-state or military.
Regardless, it's very non-Western, and was never really played up as cheescake or sex appeal (see: the Ivory Triangle book covers, even most of the artwork). Nibenay's wives always seemed to be more of an element to reinforce how *not* traditional fantasy it was.
Nibenay is easily the most interesting culture in Dark Sun. Interpretive dance as a means of communication. Polygamous marriage (several husbands OR wives) where prior to the wedding you spend a day tied to each other spouse. Clothing as a mark of shame. A master bureaucrat of a sorcerer-king, who designs intricate systems so he doesn't have to govern day-to-day. Ancestral cults. Fully stone architecture, bas-relief covering every inch of every permanent building with intricate history.
If simple nudity bothers you, you are missing the point. Nibenay is not medieval Europe. Its a healthy dose of ancient Cambodia, where clothing was optional, both men and women topless. And yes, a place where the ruler had thousands of concubines, and literally every government position was held by a relative (through marriage to a concubine, if necessary).
"Chinese sailors coming to the country note with pleasure that it is not necessary to wear clothes, and, since rice is easy had, women easily persuaded, houses easily run, furniture easily come by, and trade easily carried on, a great many sailors desert to take up permanent residence. In Cambodia it is the women who take charge of trade. For this reason a Chinese, arriving in the country, loses no time in getting himself a mate, for he find her commercial instincts a great asset.”
-Zhou Daguan, 1296
"Clothing is the bastion of the ashamed." -local saying
The Templars, being the highest ranking members of the city wear the least clothing, their highest ranking members were completely nude.
Personally I always found them to be a great way of baiting your womanizing players who were as-of-yet unfamiliar with local custom!
Really The Ivory Triangle had the most local [city] flavor of all the supplements I think.
That being said, the primary draw with Dark Sun for me is that it's a fun setting, and I believe that certain of my players (particularly the women) will be turned off by it. I myself have some reservations about it, since although Dark Sun isn't patterned after western civilization, me and my players are influenced by centuries of western occupation ourselves. It presents the opportunity of detracting from our fun, and fun trumps feel, IMO.
However, I'm not part of the "Boo, there's something I don't like so 4e DS sucks" camp. I'm very enthusiastic about DS, and if there's details that I don't like (aka Nibenese women's clothing preferences), it simply won't be part of MY Dark Sun norm. I'm sure people can respect that.
Besides, in the off-chance that a girl gamer under my future DS games does intend to play a bare-breasted Nibenese templar, then she's welcome to do it. Her character might even be admired by the "standard Nibenese templars" for her daring, for they themselves find it difficult to shed their shame.
Sure it's a little different that what is accepted 2e-canon, but that doesn't make it any less of a Dark Sun game.
Sure it's a little different that what is accepted 2e-canon, but that doesn't make it any less of a Dark Sun game.
Beej_silver, you're very correct. Another alternative is... don't ever discuss it?
To be honest, the original setting has both women and men of Dark Sun running around in bikini-sized loincloths all the time (Athas is like a gigantic South Beach) - but that was normal to them - it's a high temperature setting. From a DM's point of view, you only tend to describe the important descriptive elements of the scenery and usually very generally: "the evil templar is wearing ornate full-plate armor", "the Mul has a Drajan tatoo slave marking him for sacrifice", etc. Describing the amount of sun-tanned flesh visible draws unnecessary attention to it - and since it's not out of place... it'll be distracting.
Describe a Nibenay noble woman as... "a Nibenese noble woman". 'Nuff said. If your players want to giggle and joke about it, be patient, let them have their fun (out of game, of course - or make them aware of the penalties they face otherwise)... and then continue.
Most of it's been covered, but I did catch them note that the known area of Athas/Tyr Region is one of the few remaining habitable areas of the world. I'd never seen or heard that mentioned, though there's been quite a bit of debate about why the City-States are clustered in a relatively small area. An area centered on the Pristine Tower, no less...
I agree it needs way more info than that!
It's entirely possible it was just a random, offhand comment, but I think it's far too intriguing a concept to write off.
Plus it shores up the whole small region/population density bit fairly well. And leaves for lost civilizations in any other pockets of life around the world. What if, for example, the reason that we always see Athas' sun depicted low in the sky, is because the Tyr Region is very near to one of the poles, with he opposite parts of the region's hemishphere nothing but silt with little proper landmass? What might be on the other side of the blasted equatorial regions? What if the Pristine Tower was part of a network or the focus of similar power sources?
There's a lot of opportunity there, even if a full, detailed explanation isn't given.
Plus it shores up the whole small region/population density bit fairly well. And leaves for lost civilizations in any other pockets of life around the world. What if, for example, the reason that we always see Athas' sun depicted low in the sky, is because the Tyr Region is very near to one of the poles, with he opposite parts of the region's hemishphere nothing but silt with little proper landmass? What might be on the other side of the blasted equatorial regions? What if the Pristine Tower was part of a network or the focus of similar power sources?
There's a lot of opportunity there, even if a full, detailed explanation isn't given.
sure, you might expect to see a lot of spellcasters choosing the templar theme
This ensures I will never have anything to do with 4th ed Dark Sun. Seriously, WTF? Templars, the holy warriors of the sorcerer-kings, are defilers? This makes zero sense.
Hey, as the old saying goes, don't let the door hit you on the way out.....
"Seriously? WTF?"
If you were actually familiar with the original setting you would know that the concept of arcane/psionic masters granting divine powers to followers was one of the most confusing in the game - and the handwaving done to justify it was flat out absurd. (Living Vortexes? Now that was a WTF? moment.)
What makes more sense?
a) The original dragon kings were bound to living vortexes (now extinct creatures) in the elemental planes at the exact moment they were made champions by Rajat with the Dark Lens - giving them the ability to grant clerical powers to their worshipers even though they were completely unable to access them directly.
or
b) The original dragon kings were bound to the dark lens when they were turned into champions. This link to the dark lens granted them incredible arcane powers - including magics beyond normal casters, immortality, the ability to survive almost any wound as long as the lens exists, and the ability to grant followers their own link to the lens' power. (originally envisioned as divine templars, but now envisioned as arcane templars)
Templars aren't all automatically defilers with the change - it just means that the power templars derive through the sorcerer king is arcane, not divine. (Note, if you are a non-arcane class with a templar encounter power you woun't even be able to defile. So a psionic, martial, or primal templar is not a defiler ever - and as always for an arcane caster, it is an available option for even the most upstanding preserver.)
Personally this change is a great example of how they are fixing things that should never have been created the way they were in 2E, but that were a product of the less flexible rules that existed at the time.
It occurs to me that I think I have my answer on how they will handle templars of killed sorcerer kings. The real templar "granted powers" are the theme powers (and your higher level power swaps). The warlock pact will probably be more templars trained directly in the arcane arts by the SK. So the answer is probably, on the off chance your SK dies, you retrain all your powers into non-Templar theme powers. Maybe there will even be an ex-templar theme either initially or later on.
Templars aren't all automatically defilers with the change - it just means that the power templars derive through the sorcerer king is arcane, not divine. (Note, if you are a non-arcane class with a templar encounter power you woun't even be able to defile. So a psionic, martial, or primal templar is not a defiler ever - and as always for an arcane caster, it is an available option for even the most upstanding preserver.)
I haven't interpreted it this way. Can you quote the source if possible?
I imagine all of the powers granted by the templar theme will use the martial or arcane power source (primal and psionic will be unrelated to what SKs provide their templarate). You seem to indicate the theme powers will use the player's power source - no matter what it is - but I have never seen 4E things that do that this way.
I agree with most of PA's post. I think he's right about not all templars having to be defilers. The only thing I have yet to see anything concrete on is whether or not Arcane Defiling as an "Arcane Feature" can be used by characters who do not use the arcane power source. Like Penn I'm not so sure that it will use the players' power source.
My guess (here is where I differ from PA) is that they can, unless there is a different Templar theme for each power source (which I think unlikely). Since the Templar theme gives you an arcane power I am guessing you will be able to augment it through defiling no matter what your main power source is. This still doesn't mean they are "defilers", at least not until they decide to use the defiling feature to reroll an arcane ability.
Not sure how much sense that made. And again, complete guesswork.
My guess (here is where I differ from PA) is that they can, unless there is a different Templar theme for each power source (which I think unlikely). Since the Templar theme gives you an arcane power I am guessing you will be able to augment it through defiling no matter what your main power source is. This still doesn't mean they are "defilers", at least not until they decide to use the defiling feature to reroll an arcane ability.
Except you can't use defiling on an encounter power - even if you had it. True, we won't know for sure until release or WotC gives us some firm prerelese info. But here are two very likely possibilites that could occur.
1) Only arcane classes get the defiling power. Meaning someone getting a power from a theme or paragon path power (like an arcane trickster) would not automatically have the ability to be a defiler. If you multiclass then you are considered part of that class, but that's a different story - your templar is actually spending some time training in arcane as opposed to just having it handed to them by a SK.
2) Yes, they have indicated that at higher levels you can swap out class powers for other theme powers, but they haven't indicated that you will be able to swap out daily powers. If they are all encounter powers, then even if you give a psionic templar the at-will, they would never be able to use it with their daily powers.
My guess it that #1 is more likely, but my real point is that unless a templar player actually tries hard (meaning swaps a non-arcane daily for an arcane daily templar power), they flat out will not be able to defile. They will never defile with arcane encounter powers even if they have the at-will. In fact a templar player could actively be very templar-ish and swap out several encounter and utility powers for templar theme powers (assuming some are available) and never be able to defile.
Rich Baker's original comment was that arcane characters will get the defiling at-will. I'd bet good money that "arcane characters" really mean "arcane classes" - otherwise we could get some strange feat requirement/qualification expectations (i.e. is an arcane character with arcane defiling elligible for arcane feats even though he isn't multiclasses?). If I'm right, then it basically resolves the issue - a templar has to train as an arcane caster to defile.
I'd say we'll know soon enough, but personally the next few months will feel like an eternity.
I'd say we'll know soon enough, but personally the next few months will feel like an eternity.
Amen to that!
And about the defiling: you could be right. I missed the part about only affecting daily powers. I was really just throwing that out there with very little to base it on. Your suggested method does seem like it's the way it will work.
Side note: I guess I can understand not allowing at-wills, but why not encounters as well?
I dunno about defiling bards, metal is pretty rare on Athas.
Eh? What does metal being rare have to do with bards?
Music so powerful it kills your lawn? It's gotta be metal.
Ah, I see.
Music so powerful it kills your lawn? It's gotta be metal.
Hah! Nice one!
Don't worry, they'll come out with Necromancer-Bards that sing Death Metal. And then full-plate wearing bards banging heavy metal on drums? With all the kinds of Bards, they've have to invent a new power source... Power Metal.
Sorry... took this one a little too far
One thing to note is that the Veiled Alliance Illusionist Wizard character does not have the defiling ability on his sheet. Maybe he doesn't have it because he won't use it, or maybe he gave it up when he took the VA theme, or maybe he just never got it?
I think the presumption of the character is that they would not use the defiling ability, hence the reason it was not added to the sheet. I don't think that they can not use it, though, just that in all probability that someone playing would choose not to use it.
Side note: I guess I can understand not allowing at-wills, but why not encounters as well?
I'm guessing it was as simple as setting a finite boundary to avoid unexpected abuse.
With it only being daily powers, you are looking at no more than 4 (maybe 5 if you can find some way to recharge a daily) uses between extended rests. If you did encounter powers also, once you hit paragon you are looking at the possibility of 8-16 chances to use it per encounter. Granted, it's probably unlikely that someone would really use it that many times, but some of the worst exploits that occur in the game are due to unintended concequences.
Also, as others have mentioned I'd bet we will see several feats that provide additional benefits when defiling and at least one paragon path. Knowing that there is a very specific number of times a day that a PC can use defiling allows them to buff it without it becoming a monster.
yeah i just meant that i bet some of the in print npcs will definitely be other things.
but the real question will be what the warlocks and templars of tyr look like. in the original setting the death of kalak meant all the templars lost their spells. it will seem a little jarring to me if all the sk warlocks and templars keep their granted powers but fourth edition really doesnt support the idea that a pc just suddenly loses access to all his powers
Not to read too much into it, but the D&DXP sample adventure had a warlock with the SK pact, then Kalak dies, and there is no change. I suspect that this will be the case for anyone. Maybe it becomes more of a vestige-driven pact (latent/residue energy) than active, but still driven by the power involved. In some ways, the write-ups for pacts in Dragon make it seem as if the pact is all about driving a bargain, the person you bargained with gives you power and access to knowledge, and then you could be on your own and still progress. The SK can just be what started you off, which still makes for interesting RP. You entered a bargain with Kalak, now he is dead, yet you must honor the bargain nonetheless...
For once I wasn't too far off on concept (though the sample PC was from Nibenay). Rich Baker's new blog says the pact is up front and a warlock can choose to stick with the Sk or become disloyal. That means Kalak can die and a warlock can still be a SK-pact from Tyr.