Half Giant
Racial TraitsAverage Height: 9’ 10” – 12’6˝
Average Weight: 1500-1600lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Large
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low Light Vision
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate,
Bonus Feat: Half Giants gain Toughness as a bonus feat. This feat stacks with itself if a Half Giant gains it via a class ability.
Recover: Half Giants gain an extra healing surge per day.
They should also have a racial (ala fey step etc) encounter or daily power (psionic stomp or something).
I would make them Medium and definitely add the use large/over-sized weapon thing that the Minotaur has, and I'm sure the upcoming Goliath in the PHB II will have too.
They should also have a racial (ala fey step etc) encounter or daily power (psionic stomp or something).
They are already large which would negate the oversized weapon ability wouldn't it? Would Giant Stomp or something like that overpower the race? Also Dark Sun Half Giants never got the 3rd ed version of stomp Half Giants got in the Psionics handbook.
As I said in the original post they have to be large, no ifs or buts unless it is to inherently broken and that will be their racial power in effect.
They are already large which would negate the oversized weapon ability wouldn't it?
As I said in the original post they have to be large, no ifs or buts unless it is to inherently broken and that will be their racial power in effect.
When the 3.5 Dark Sun PHB came out in Dragon the Half-Giant was Medium, a very large medium, but Medium none the less.
If you insist on them being Large that could be a problem for a player race, especially for melee types, what with the whole reach thing.
I would remove the large, toughness, and healing surge business, and make them medium, with the large weapon action, and a racial encounter ability.
When the 3.5 Dark Sun PHB came out in Dragon the Half-Giant was Medium, a very large medium, but Medium none the less.
If you insist on them being Large that could be a problem for a player race, especially for melee types, what with the whole reach thing.
I would remove the large, toughness, and healing surge business, and make them medium, with the large weapon action, and a racial encounter ability.
We used Athas.orgs verison of the Half Giant hence it more or less has to be large. Apart from reach 2 what else does being Large give you that large weapon action doesn't do.
Paizi's version of the Half Giant was based on the EPH version. Only a few races have a racial power in the PHB BTW. I don't think its required.
If they have to be large, why not remove the racial Toughness feat (toughness is pretty good as it is) and give them a Stomp Encounter Power?
Not a bad idea. I gave them a racial feat for toughness for 2 reasons.
1. 2nd ed Half Giants recieved a massive con boost and had double hit points. Toughness is the best way to represent this without being totally retarded.
2. Humans get a bonus feat and Half Giants are half human or descended from a human anyway. Its kinda like the bonus human feat but already prepicked for you.
We used Athas.orgs verison of the Half Giant hence it more or less has to be large. Apart from reach 2 what else does being Large give you that large weapon action doesn't do.
Paizi's version of the Half Giant was based on the EPH version. Only a few races have a racial power in the PHB BTW. I don't think its required.
Than there is no pleashing you…*in the voice of Goldmember/Johan Vandersmut*
Than there is no pleashing you…*in the voice of Goldmember/Johan Vandersmut*
I don't want a clone of the 3.5 Half Giant but a more or less mechanically balenced version of the 2nd ed half giant.
I replaced toughness with the durable feat instead as its a similar effect in a way..
Is large size overpowered mechanically if you sacrifice other racial powers and abiliites to get it?
No I think Toughness may go and the ability might get merged with that feat that gives you extra healing surges.
I don't want a clone of the 3.5 Half Giant but a more or less mechanically balenced version of the 2nd ed half giant.
Is large size overpowered mechanically if you sacrifice other racial powers and abiliites to get it?
Well, as the original half-giant had a bit of the (in fluff) pick up things from other cultures/races thing that the half-elf has, maybe they should have an ability to pick up a power from another class or something, or maybe even a racial power.
I'm just spit-balling here.
I still think they should be Medium with the powerful build thingy.
Half Giant
Racial TraitsAverage Height: 9’ 10” – 12’6˝
Average Weight: 1500-1600lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Large
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low Light Vision
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate,
Bonus Feat: Half Giants gain Toughness as a bonus feat. This feat stacks with itself if a Half Giant gains it via a class ability.
Recover: Half Giants gain an extra healing surge per day.
The only thing that being large entails in 4E, really, is the possibility of reach. Reach for large creatures can be 1-2. If you do apply this to the half-giant, then it is a positive ability. It does not mean, though, that they can make OAs out to 2 squares, though. They would need some kind of Threatening Reach ability if they were to be allowed to do that. That may be something to keep in mind for a feat.
As to the bonus feat, I might consider something different than giving them the ability to take Toughness more than once. Maybe something like this:
Half-Giant Durability: You gain a racial bonus of 2 + your Constitution bonus to your hit points.
This way you do not have to mess with the fact that they can take Toughness more than once and the problems this may make. Much like the halfling can have Nimble Reaction and still take Defensive Mobility.
Well, as the original half-giant had a bit of the (in fluff) pick up things from other cultures/races thing that the half-elf has, maybe they should have an ability to pick up a power from another class or something, or maybe even a racial power.
Something like the half-elf's Dilettante ability? Might be careful duplicating abilities as it tends to take away the uniqueness of the race.
I still think they should be Medium with the powerful build thingy.
Yes, I much preferred the medium version, too.
Not a bad idea. I gave them a racial feat for toughness for 2 reasons.
1. 2nd ed Half Giants recieved a massive con boost and had double hit points. Toughness is the best way to represent this without being totally retarded.
2. Humans get a bonus feat and Half Giants are half human or descended from a human anyway. Its kinda like the bonus human feat but already prepicked for you.
Why not just make it a Racial bonus to HP? Then you can make it something slightly more appropriate than the +5 bonus at heroic level, since that's something that any old elf can pick up as well. I'd say make it a +10 bonus that doesn't scale by tier. It's out in front of similar bonuses in Heroic (though on par with a Con-focused Dragonborn), but levels off at higher levels.
I think the Stomp power (Close Burst 1, Str vs Ref, Knocked Prone on hit) is a good call. I would make at least one of the Heroic Tier Half-Giant racial feats increase that to Close Burst 2.
I'd make them medium, just because we don't have any examples of large PC races yet (do we?) and that means we don't really know how they'll be handled mechanically. I'd just go with the Minotaur weapon ability and fluff them up as being, well, half-giants and call it good.
I think the Stomp power (Close Burst 1, Str vs Ref, Knocked Prone on hit) is a good call.
Maybe vs. Fort?
Maybe vs. Fort?
If it was a push, I'd probably agree. Since it's effectively a trip effect, it's going to be more important for the people effected to be light on their feet and react to unstable ground quickly rather than muscle through the effect.
If it was a push, I'd probably agree. Since it's effectively a trip effect, it's going to be more important for the people effected to be light on their feet and react to unstable ground quickly rather than muscle through the effect.
Yeah, I'm at work so I can't compare to similar powers.
[INDENT]
Half Giant
Racial TraitsAverage Height: 9’ 10” – 12’6˝
Average Weight: 1500-1600lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Large
Speed: 7 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Diplomacy
Adaptable Mind: +1 to Will
Giant Hardiness: Your healing surge value is equal to one quarter of your maximum hit points + your Constitution modifier.
[/INDENT]
They never had infravision in Dark Sun, so I dropped them down to normal vision. Their speed was higher because they have a larger step than other races, so I adjusted as such. I figure that large is powerful enough to encompass a racial ability by itself, but I think a neat idea for a heroic tier feat would be an Encounter Power that grants threatening reach for one round (not much more than that, however... threatening reach is powerful).
I gave them a diplomacy bonus because Half-Giants are good at blending in with new cultures. The +1 to Will helps to counteract the attribute bonuses to one save. I thought the two abilities you gave were a bit much (they got a bonus to constitution AND another healing surge along with stackable toughness) so I just borrowed a little something from the Dragonborn to fill the race's hardiness.
Here are the powers that have been proposed up to now on this thread:
Bonus Feat: Half Giants gain Toughness as a bonus feat. This feat stacks with itself if a Half Giant gains it via a class ability.
Recover: Half Giants gain an extra healing surge per day.
Half-Giant Durability: You gain a racial bonus of 2 + your Constitution bonus to your hit points.
Adaptable Mind: +1 to Will
Giant Hardiness: Your healing surge value is equal to one quarter of your maximum hit points + your Constitution modifier.
No offence, but if a new thing fit better than the old 'canon' it should be used.
The real question is whether or not it does fit better. Is being a large creature really all that overpowered? What specifically broken advantage does it grant, other than taking up more space and having a natural reach?
The real question is whether or not it does fit better. Is being a large creature really all that overpowered? What specifically broken advantage does it grant, other than taking up more space and having a natural reach?
Being large really doesn't confer the same as it did in 3E. It can allow you have a reach of 2 squares, you have a slight increase to your carrying capacity, and you can grab creatures of up to huge size. Beyond that there is nothing really inherent to your size. In the end, whether the half-giant is large or medium really, I think, only matters as far as taste.
If you want it to have more of a Psionic flavor, you're going to have to give it a psionic-type racial power.
Seems balanced and flavorful to me as just a big ol' tough strong humam.
If you want it to have more of a Psionic flavor, you're going to have to give it a psionic-type racial power.
In Dark Sun, everyone has psionic flavor. Even humans are naturally born with some psionic ability. It'd be pointless to give the default half-giant a psionic power, unless we're going to do the same with humans and everyone else.
Besides, I think all innate psionic abilities in Dark Sun would be better handled as something like backgrounds... everyone gets one. Then some people get the option of taking psionic classes if they want to delve more into it.
In Dark Sun, everyone has psionic flavor. Even humans are naturally born with some psionic ability. It'd be pointless to give the default half-giant a psionic power, unless we're going to do the same with humans and everyone else.
Besides, I think all innate psionic abilities in Dark Sun would be better handled as something like backgrounds... everyone gets one. Then some people get the option of taking psionic classes if they want to delve more into it.
I have a 4th ed Psion beta for Darksun. Also working on a wild talent feat where you get to pick and use a Psion at will as an encounter power. As a houserule I suppose everyoe could get it as a free psionic feat if you want to go that far for a 2nd ed type game.
+ Pro: Reach 1-2 (Not Threatening)
+ Pro: Big Weapons (Damage goes up slightly)
+ Pro: Grab creatures 1 size larger than a med creature could
- Con: Require more space.. squeezing much more often.
- Con: Require more space.. easier for more enemies to target you
- Con: Require more space.. you are the most visible threat.
- Con: You are now more vulnerable to tactics against large creatures...
If you are the main tank.. it evens out, if you are not it is actually worse.
HALF-GIANT
Racial Traits:
Average Height: 6.5’’ – 8.5’
Average Weight: 940 – 1750 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strenght, +2 Cons, -2 Dex
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: normal
Languages: Common, Giant
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance
Special: May not wear normal armor, must have all armor custom made.
Oversized: You can use weapons of your size or one size larger than you as if they were your size.
Powerful Build: For the purposes of lifting and carrying, treat the half-giant as if his strength were 2 points higher.
Far Strider: You move +2 squares when you charge.
Who Am I Today?: Half-giants have an unstable alignment, tending to vary based on their companions. Thus, the general bent of their alignment is fixed on creation, but varies each day one step towards their comrade's mien. For example a Lawful Good half-giant, with Good friends, would veer to Good each day, while one who spends his time with an unaligned party shifts his to that alignment.
Racial ability: Unstoppable
Your bestial rage and enormous size let loose in an orgy of unstoppable destruction!
Encounter Minor
Gain resistance 2 to all attacks until end of your next turn
I had originally made the race Large myself, but after playing found that anytime my players ran into a dungeon, the 1/2 giant stayed outside on guard because he was more of a hindrance than and asset. Here are the rules I've been using:
HALF-GIANT
Racial Traits:
Average Height: 6.5’’ – 8.5’
Average Weight: 940 – 1750 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strenght, +2 Cons, -2 Dex
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: normal
Languages: Common, Giant
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance
Special: May not wear normal armor, must have all armor custom made.
Oversized: You can use weapons of your size or one size larger than you as if they were your size.
Powerful Build: For the purposes of lifting and carrying, treat the half-giant as if his strength were 2 points higher.
Far Strider: You move +2 squares when you charge.
Who Am I Today?: Half-giants have an unstable alignment, tending to vary based on their companions. Thus, the general bent of their alignment is fixed on creation, but varies each day one step towards their comrade's mien. For example a Lawful Good half-giant, with Good friends, would veer to Good each day, while one who spends his time with an unaligned party shifts his to that alignment.
Racial ability: Unstoppable
Your bestial rage and enormous size let loose in an orgy of unstoppable destruction!
Encounter Minor
Gain resistance 2 to all attacks until end of your next turn
well.. you have created the psycho little cousin to the DS half giant..
4e races NEVER recieve a stat penalty...
a move 7 better represents the half giant stride.. they move further simply by virtue of their larger body a bonus to charge speed does not represent this.
armor restriction is just stupid.. you made them medium humanoid creatures that are to large for armor? duhh..
unstable alignment.. could easily just be flavor text.. 4e mechanics should not force any race to shift alignments.. If I want to rp a half giant that fights against his natural inclination to shift to the alignment of the party.. so bit it..
your unstopable power represents a rage, not the half giants dense structure.
you need to make ds dungeons large.. even old halfing architecture should be huge and grand..
No offence, but if a new thing fit better than the old 'canon' it should be used.
That's fine if you are making a new world for home-brew, not fine if you are doing a conversion of an existing setting.
No offence, but if a new thing fit better than the old 'canon' it should be used.
Fit with what exactly?
Fit with what exactly?
/cue Star Wars
Fit with The Senate!
I AM THE SENATE!
well.. you have created the psycho little cousin to the DS half giant..
4e races NEVER recieve a stat penalty...
a move 7 better represents the half giant stride.. they move further simply by virtue of their larger body a bonus to charge speed does not represent this.
armor restriction is just stupid.. you made them medium humanoid creatures that are to large for armor? duhh..
unstable alignment.. could easily just be flavor text.. 4e mechanics should not force any race to shift alignments.. If I want to rp a half giant that fights against his natural inclination to shift to the alignment of the party.. so bit it..
your unstopable power represents a rage, not the half giants dense structure.
you need to make ds dungeons large.. even old halfing architecture should be huge and grand..
The new paradigm of "No Negatives in 4e" is inane and a non-issue. Either way, for a giant to be large or medium with large aspects, the giant must have some drawback, and in the FLUFF of athas the giants where tough, strong, stupid and large.
The issue with the Giant is two-fold:
1) does the 1/2 giant gain massive strength and a robust exterior, or does she gain size and strength?
2) What role is the race suited for and how pigeon-holed is that race to that choice.
Now, insofar as the size of the dungeons go, if you limit the size of your dungeons to the size of the largest chracter in your party then you have little imagination and no creativity and you should run FR.
Me, I like telling stories where the characters make choices, like, sorry Jim, you have to stay behind and guard the wagons cuz even though you are the best stand-up fighter, you just won't fit inside the obsidian tunnel.
Maybe I'm on a diatribe, but how would a player truly create a creature that is half man and half giant....I mean physically? Is it a really unsatisfied giant woman, or a human female with a shattered pelvis?
....On that subject, if dwarves and humans can breed, can elves and halflings? How about Pterran and Tari? Where does it end?
Jon
....On that subject, if dwarves and humans can breed, can elves and halflings? How about Pterran and Tari? Where does it end?
Don't even start there...! Noooooooooo!!!!!!!
The new paradigm of "No Negatives in 4e" is inane and a non-issue. Either way, for a giant to be large or medium with large aspects, the giant must have some drawback, and in the FLUFF of athas the giants where tough, strong, stupid and large.
The issue with the Giant is two-fold:
1) does the 1/2 giant gain massive strength and a robust exterior, or does she gain size and strength?
2) What role is the race suited for and how pigeon-holed is that race to that choice.
Now, insofar as the size of the dungeons go, if you limit the size of your dungeons to the size of the largest chracter in your party then you have little imagination and no creativity and you should run FR.
Me, I like telling stories where the characters make choices, like, sorry Jim, you have to stay behind and guard the wagons cuz even though you are the best stand-up fighter, you just won't fit inside the obsidian tunnel.
Maybe I'm on a diatribe, but how would a player truly create a creature that is half man and half giant....I mean physically? Is it a really unsatisfied giant woman, or a human female with a shattered pelvis?
The queeze rules are rarely used in my experience. This could be a fun addition to make the PCs have to deal with squeezing, not just throw that at monsters for a change.
I don't see much the relevancy of the rest of your comments, though. Sorry.
Half-giant builds that are Medium simply suck, no matter how much eye candy fans have thrown at those builds yet. My opinion.
Squeeze
You can squeeze through an area that isn’t as wide as
the space you normally take up. Big creatures usually
use this move action to fit into narrow corridors, but a
Medium or a Small creature can use it to fit into a constrained
space, such as a burrow.
SQUEEZE: MOVE ACTION
✦ Smaller Space: A Large, Huge, or Gargantuan
creature reduces its space by 1. For example, a
Large creature that squeezes has a space of 1 (1
square) instead of 2 (4 squares). A Huge creature’s
space changes from 3 (9 squares) to 2 (4 squares).
When a Medium or smaller creature squeezes, the
DM decides how narrow a space the creature can
occupy. If an effect prevents a creature from leaving
a square in order to squeeze, the creature cannot
squeeze.
✦ Half Speed: As part of the same move action, move
up to half your speed.
✦ –5 Penalty to Attack Rolls: You have a –5 penalty
to attack rolls until you return to your normal space.
✦ Grant Combat Advantage: You grant combat
advantage to all enemies until you return to your
normal space.
✦ Provoke Opportunity Attacks: If squeezing causes
any part of your space to leave a square adjacent
to an enemy, that enemy can make an opportunity
attack against you.
✦ Ending a Squeeze: You can end a squeeze as a free
action. You return to your normal space. You have to
occupy a space that includes the space you occupied
when you stopped squeezing.
Squeezing is thus a powerful tool against large sized monsters, if you can goad them into passages too narrow for them but not for you.
In DS *prime lore* they are massive SOBs who ever knows are extremely tough/strong bad asses...but dumb as a rock and eaisly manipulated, hence tempalrsd etc favour them as bodyguards.
See the roginal boxed set, do not vary from the original boxed set without good reason! Much of what came after that was tripe and ruined DarkSun.
Half-Giants may need an ECL or penalties to Int, Wis Cha whether 4th ed likes it or not ;)
They are Large, they are tough, they are strong, not too quick on their feet, they are dumb and easily manipulated so major + Str Con, - Dex Wis Int Cha. (more - Int than -wis)
I'd go Large, Reach1, +6 Str +4 Con, -2 Dex/Wis, -4 Int/Cha. quadruple all equipment costs.
Only things Dark Sun needs tweaked are templars (they are just clerics, deal with it, their bueacratic powers are entirely non-class/level based and are an RP item), and gladiators (which is just a job description, a type of fighting).
Suggesting a HALF GIANT should be Medium is just bloody silly, sorry folks! :p
In DS *prime lore* they are massive SOBs who ever knows are extremely tough/strong bad asses...but dumb as a rock and eaisly manipulated, hence tempalrsd etc favour them as bodyguards.
See the roginal boxed set, do not vary from the original boxed set without good reason! Much of what came after that was tripe and ruined DarkSun.
Half-Giants may need an ECL or penalties to Int, Wis Cha whether 4th ed likes it or not ;)
They are Large, they are tough, they are strong, not too quick on their feet, they are dumb and easily manipulated so major + Str Con, - Dex Wis Int Cha. (more - Int than -wis)
I'd go Large, Reach1, +6 Str +4 Con, -2 Dex/Wis, -4 Int/Cha. quadruple all equipment costs.
Only things Dark Sun needs tweaked are templars (they are just clerics, deal with it, their bueacratic powers are entirely non-class/level based and are an RP item), and gladiators (which is just a job description, a type of fighting).
I strpped off most of their 2nd ed powers as such. Didn't work so well back then and were annoying.
Suggesting a HALF GIANT should be Medium is just bloody silly, sorry folks! :p
In DS *prime lore* they are massive SOBs who ever knows are extremely tough/strong bad asses...but dumb as a rock and eaisly manipulated, hence tempalrsd etc favour them as bodyguards.
See the roginal boxed set, do not vary from the original boxed set without good reason! Much of what came after that was tripe and ruined DarkSun.
Half-Giants may need an ECL or penalties to Int, Wis Cha whether 4th ed likes it or not ;)
They are Large, they are tough, they are strong, not too quick on their feet, they are dumb and easily manipulated so major + Str Con, - Dex Wis Int Cha. (more - Int than -wis)
I'd go Large, Reach1, +6 Str +4 Con, -2 Dex/Wis, -4 Int/Cha. quadruple all equipment costs.
Where you see remaining faithful to the original material as good, I see it as a step backward. Having not seen any large races for character play, it is hard to judge how one would look mechanically balanced. I will say, though, that I hope negative modifiers are avoided. One of the things I disliked the most about the original half-giants was the fact that they were pretty much only good for either fighters or gladiators. The race was too pigeon-holed.
I, personally, like the idea of a medium-sized race with an ability like Oversized. In fact, I could see using the minotaur race with some slight modifications for the half-giant quite easily. This goliath race may also fill the bill nicely once it sees the daylight, too.
I'm perfectly happy with half giants being brutes, that's what they ARE. If you can't live with that, then you ain't playing Dark Sun.
Dark Sun is not "politically correct, everything balanced and neat".
Defilers are more powerful than preservers (fact of the game), and half giants are the strongest, by far, of the PC races, but the are not very intelligent at all.
They have enough Wisdom to be reasonable clerics though.
folk need to stop thinking they have ot have super-optimal builds
As for balance, yes I do appreciate balance in my game. But only as far as the players are concerned. I want each player to feel that they can contribute equally to the enjoyment of the game. If one race is a little better at one class over another, that's okay. If one race completely outshines any other race in a certain class, to the point that you would be foolish not to take it, that is not good. On the other hand, I also do not care for races that really only have one or two choices for classes as it strikes me as too limiting.
I want someone to come to the game and be able to say they want to play a half-giant wizard if they so choose and not feel that they chose a bad option or concept. It may not be an optimal choice, but I want it to be a workable option. Just like a dragonborn rogue, dwarf warlord, eladrin paladin, elf warlock, or tiefling fighter. None of those are optimal choices of race and class, but they are interesting and workable options that are not hamstrung by any artificial negatives.
And I can convey a grim and bleak world with balanced races, thank you very much. I certainly do not need such a thing conveyed through mechanics of any sort.
What IS balance? ;)
half-giants being butt stompers is balanced by the fact they are so big, gear costs more, a real drawback in DS, need more water, yeah, BIG drawback...and as noted above...they aren't built to fit in many places.
I always assume DS wealthy homes, businesses etc are built to accomodate them, but not many poor houses, ruins etc.
Plus they are low Intelligence/cha/dex/Wis, you know they are weak versus people skills and mind magic/psionics...that's perfectly cool. It fits, it makes sense.
And it's not wrong to say: "Sorry your race IS dumb as mud, you are going to have limited intelligence vs a Human, but play one if wish, hey you're tough as hell and if all else fails you have the hit points and melee capability in a pinch!"
Folk need to quit "super optimizing", damned well hate it as a player and a DM
Not being "the best" is not wrong.
halfgiants are MASSIVE big brutes, that's what they are, do you expect Frodo to wrestle an Uruk-Hai and win? NO!
That's a good thing, you expect each character to use what they've got, not to be "mr super".
It's Dark Sun, halfgiants, bar weirdness, are NOT going ot be great defilers, tough, deal with it, it's good for the game that way!
Yes mechanics do convey it: dehydration, templars, SKs etc ;)
Blanace, that's where you make a mistake:
What IS balance? ;)
half-giants being butt stompers is balanced by the fact they are so big, gear costs more, a real drawback in DS, need more water, yeah, BIG drawback...and as noted above...they aren't built to fit in many places.
I always assume DS wealthy homes, businesses etc are built to accomodate them, but not many poor houses, ruins etc.
Plus they are low Intelligence/cha/dex/Wis, you know they are weak versus people skills and mind magic/psionics...that's perfectly cool. It fits, it makes sense.
And it's not wrong to say: "Sorry your race IS dumb as mud, you are going to have limited intelligence vs a Human, but play one if wish, hey you're tough as hell and if all else fails you have the hit points and melee capability in a pinch!"
Folk need to quit "super optimizing", damned well hate it as a player and a DM
Not being "the best" is not wrong.
halfgiants are MASSIVE big brutes, that's what they are, do you expect Frodo to wrestle an Uruk-Hai and win? NO!
That's a good thing, you expect each character to use what they've got, not to be "mr super".
It's Dark Sun, halfgiants, bar weirdness, are NOT going ot be great defilers, tough, deal with it, it's good for the game that way!
Yes mechanics do convey it: dehydration, templars, SKs etc ;)
At the risk of sounding like a heretic there was alot wrong with the original boxed set of Darksun mechanics wise. I'm not after perfect balance and even in 4th ed some races are usually better than others.
I'm aiming for a decent PC race that won't dominate other players. 4the ed old skool type half giants are probably going to be limited to NPCs. However you could for axample make a decent Pyreen as well. The Athas.org Half Giant wasn't that good mechanically as the LA really hurt it. 4th ed doesn't have LA so you have to downpower 4th ed races a'la Drow, Minotaurs etc.
A PC Dragon for example would be an epic destiny and woud probably be along the lines of an Dragonborn breath weapon, +1 or 2 AC and some buffs to strength or con and a capstone ability around level 27-30. An NPC Dragon would likely to be a solo monster with alot of abilities and be tough as guts.
I'm fine with that as I never met someone in real life who actually played a Athasian Dragon anyway.
I do not think any player race in 4E will be able to be large size. Give the race the oversized weapon feature I would think and +2 str +2con. Perhaps the encounter can be an abilitiy that knocks the target prone.
My theory is leave the Half Giant at large size and if it proves to e to powerful consider knocking it down to medium with oversized ability.
Personally I think reach 2 is going to be less powerful than some racial powers in particular Dragonborn, Eladrin, and Elf. Genasi get a racial power that lets them fly for example.
Balance, that's where you make a mistake:
What IS balance? ;)
Balance is when a player can choose to play any concept they come up with and it still be playable without being unplayable. It doesn't have to be optimal, but it does have to be a viable option. Half-giants, as they were, were playable only as combat monsters. That is too focused for my tastes.
half-giants being butt stompers is balanced by the fact they are so big, gear costs more, a real drawback in DS, need more water, yeah, BIG drawback...and as noted above...they aren't built to fit in many places.
I always assume DS wealthy homes, businesses etc are built to accomodate them, but not many poor houses, ruins etc.
Plus they are low Intelligence/cha/dex/Wis, you know they are weak versus people skills and mind magic/psionics...that's perfectly cool. It fits, it makes sense.
And it's not wrong to say: "Sorry your race IS dumb as mud, you are going to have limited intelligence vs a Human, but play one if wish, hey you're tough as hell and if all else fails you have the hit points and melee capability in a pinch!"
Folk need to quit "super optimizing", damned well hate it as a player and a DM
Not being "the best" is not wrong.
halfgiants are MASSIVE big brutes, that's what they are, do you expect Frodo to wrestle an Uruk-Hai and win? NO!
That's a good thing, you expect each character to use what they've got, not to be "mr super".
In AD&D2E, the modifiers on the half-giant race were just another way of doing class restriction as they were in AD&D. I was never a fan of them then and am still not now. Back then it was easy enough to ignore class level limits and restrictions, but it was more difficult to ignore the modifiers. Too much monkeying around and you risked unbalancing the race in comparison to others.
The half-giants you seem to want would be nothing more than NPC monsters in my game. They are too narrowly focused. If a race is going to be presented as a playable race, then it needs to be playable in any class as far as I'm concerned. This is why I'm enjoying the new 4E races. While they favor certain classes, they are not hamstrung if you choose to go against the grain.
It's Dark Sun, halfgiants, bar weirdness, are NOT going ot be great defilers, tough, deal with it, it's good for the game that way!
No, they probably won't be great defilers, but they also shouldn't suck if a player chooses to go that route. You may be fine with limiting options, I am not.
Yes mechanics do convey it: dehydration, templars, SKs etc ;)
No, I convey the atmosphere, the mechanics just tell me and the players what happens when they interact with the world.
Having not seen any large races for character play, it is hard to judge how one would look mechanically balanced.
Wait for PHBII and MMII, there is bound to be one in there.
One of the things I disliked the most about the original half-giants was the fact that they were pretty much only good for either fighters or gladiators. The race was too pigeon-holed.
That's the beauty of 4e: races no longer having ability score penalties they are thus good for any class, just not as good as for whatever class would benefit best from the race's ability score bonuses.
I keep hearing "My theory" comments...well my own theory comment is to wait until we do see a Large playable race, and start building from there.
Wait for PHBII and MMII, there is bound to be one in there.
I hope to see something of this sort to give us something to measure against. I'm sure we will see something eventually, though.
That's the beauty of 4e: races no longer having ability score penalties they are thus good for any class, just not as good as for whatever class would benefit best from the race's ability score bonuses.
Hence the reason I like 4E's classes and the design intent behind them.
My theory is leave the Half Giant at large size and if it proves to e to powerful consider knocking it down to medium with oversized ability.
Personally I think reach 2 is going to be less powerful than some racial powers in particular Dragonborn, Eladrin, and Elf. Genasi get a racial power that lets them fly for example.
Reach for an OA type of Fighter would be pretty nice since racial powers are usually Encounter powers and Reach is on all the time. This means he can use oversized weapons or the spear and shield deal and have his large size Reach. Unless the spear and large size Reach abilities don't add to each other. Still it is pretty powerful to me.
Reach for an OA type of Fighter would be pretty nice since racial powers are usually Encounter powers and Reach is on all the time. This means he can use oversized weapons or the spear and shield deal and have his large size Reach. Unless the spear and large size Reach abilities don't add to each other. Still it is pretty powerful to me.
Its powerful but I don't think its overwhelminh. Also the rest of the half giant package doesn't get alot.
Apparently, ALL races can interbreed. Elves and halflings, Tari and dwarves and even....Pterran and halfgiants.
Makes you kinda think.............
I mean how? The only exception is the thri-kreen, and that brings all sorts of horrible Hentai ideas to mind.
-------------------------
Medium is the best way to go with the 1/2 giant. I even included a feat later on, at Paragon tier, to allow teh brute to become large.
Now, insofar as the size of the dungeons go, if you limit the size of your dungeons to the size of the largest character in your party then you have little imagination and no creativity and you should run FR.
....On that subject, if dwarves and humans can breed, can elves and halflings? How about Pterran and Tari? Where does it end?
Jon
1) hahahah, i love it - you enter into the ancient tomb of the halfing tribal lord... with 40 foot wide halls and 30 foot ceilings... why? BECAUSE THEY CAN, THATS WHY!!!!
2) the half breeds did get pretty out of hand in 3rd edition. But i believe the half giants of dark sun were magically created. Although they seem to be as large as a hill giant, so why not just call them giants.
*hey you edited the original post i was quoting*
1) hahahah, i love it - you enter into the ancient tomb of the halfing tribal lord... with 40 foot wide halls and 30 foot ceilings... why? BECAUSE THEY CAN, THATS WHY!!!!
2) the half breeds did get pretty out of hand in 3rd edition. But i believe the half giants of dark sun were magically created. Although they seem to be as large as a hill giant, so why not just call them giants.
*hey you edited the original post i was quoting*
Perhaps the halfings had giants building the tomb... not 2 far fetched from what i remember of the ds history... But I agree.. in most circumstances halfing ruins would be "Huge" at 10' wide halls and 15' tall ceilings. Most halfing ruins would probably be 5' halls with 5' or less ceilings.. A half-giant "could" squeeze through a 5' space.. but I would force him to make Fear saves... or he starts suffering from clostraphobia... (no action for that round)...
As far as why half-giants are as large as hill giants... Becouse DS giants are much larger than hill giants...they are scarry.... on par with dragons from standard campaigns...
HALF-GIANT
Average Height: 7'6"-8'
Average Weight: 420-480 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidation
Ferocity: If you are reduced to 0 hit points, you can make a melee basic attack as free action before falling unconcious.
Oversized: You can use weapons of your size or one size larger than you as if they were your size.
Stomp: You can use stomp as an encounter power.
As I said in the other thread.... I LOVE it. That is how a half-giant should be done in 4e.
Thanks. I posted it in the other thread but thought it would actually be more appropriate here so as not to derail the other one too much. My opinion may change once I see the goliath. As you said, change the name and drop it and it may do the job properly. I could see feats that could allow the half-giant to progress to large size, extend the range of his stomp power (in the case of my build), or even give out threatening reach.
The same arguments still stand against using the Expanded Psionic Handbook's half-giant and incorporating it into a 3e or 4e Dark Sun setting, since Dark Sun half-giants do not do what the Expanded Psionic Handbook half-giants do. Period.
Throwing out the baby with the bath water, next we'll have Dark Sun as being "Warm and you don't have to worry about water"!
Jesh
appreciate the efforts, folks, but no, half-giants ARE pigeon-holed, don't change that, it's *good*.
Dark SUn is not nice lovely dovey blanced D&D.
Dark SUn is diety-like sorceror kings melting your brains from half a mile away cause you are a *mook* to them.
half-giants picking your charcater up and throwing him through a wall, because they CAN.
Half-giants getting wated by Fear spells and psionics because they are a bit limited in the will power ways, and tye definately can get conned easily as they ain't too intellectual.
4th ed has made 1 mistake, or folk wanting to use it for DS have: DS is *not* balanced, it shouldn't be, it's NOT NORMAL D&D!!!
That's what's so bloody good about it.
Gawd, it's like re-writing the Lord of the RIngs so the halflings can fight liek Bormir....NOooooooOOoOoOOO!!! They aren't meant to, t's WRONG, it buggers it all up, so don't bloody do it!
Balance in a game some times is pigeon holing. Good, deal with it, live with it, love it.
DS is a harsh, brutal place, this makes it FUN. Keep the fun
Athasian Half-giant:
Large creature, Reach1 (note, in 4th ed, Reach is not the masssive advantage it was in 3rd)
+6 Strength, +4 Con, -4 Int and dex, -2 Cha and Wisdom.
Yes they are bloody INCREDIBLY storng and pretty damned tough!
But they are also slow of intellect, slow of reflex due to size and their build, but they can have reasonable wills and personality, but less than a normal Human though.
items cost x10 normal, (x8 weight, remember! nto x2, it's octupled, due to mass, 2x2x2 = 8, then add surcharge for making the unusual stuff)
double or quadruple water usage, cna't recall the 1st boxed set ruless off hand, large creatures actually lose less water, to an extent (less surface area to mass so less area to lose water form, but that also means they cna over heat easier)
half giant stomp or a knockback or such as racial power, is cool.
Now, here's something folk better understand: characters do not have to be OPTIMAL to be good!!
So what if a half giant templar isn't Fu Manchu! He can rip yer damned head off if all else fails, and take a licking and keep on kicking! ;)
Man, I hate "Optimizers" in a serious RPG session, fine when yer being more light hearted ;) but not when yer doing gritty dirty DS stuff.
Enjoy a character for what they are!
Half-giants are LARGE, do not change that for simple game mechanics.
No... half giants WERE large in 2e. So were minotaurs. In fact, I think I remember minotaurs being large in 3e too. They are not in 4e. And, half-giants stopped being large by 3e already. Just because something was once true does not mean it should be.
appreciate the efforts, folks, but no, half-giants ARE pigeon-holed, don't change that, it's *good*.
No, its not. All classes/races were pigeonholed in 2e. There is a reason 4e has moved away from this mechanic.
Dark SUn is not nice lovely dovey blanced D&D.
Neither was 2e. Notice how there has been an effort to change that?
Dark SUn is diety-like sorceror kings melting your brains from half a mile away cause you are a *mook* to them.
You know, there was a nice post a little while back. In it a poster pointed out that by 2e rules, a group of level 11 heroes could potentially kill a dragon king. Also, nobody is saying that the dragon kings should not be deity like... you will notice that they are NPCs... epic NPCs sometimes break the rules a bit: see Orcus, one of the only places where you will find a save or die effect in 4e.
Half-giants getting wated by Fear spells and psionics because they are a bit limited in the will power ways, and tye definately can get conned easily as they ain't too intellectual.
And by 4e standards, they should not get a +2 to Int or Wis. If someone is trying to build a typical half-giant, they will probably make its Int/Wis its lowest stats when distributing their stat points.
4th ed has made 1 mistake, or folk wanting to use it for DS have: DS is *not* balanced, it shouldn't be, it's NOT NORMAL D&D!!!
4th ed has made no mistakes. Neither are the people who want to use it for DS. The original Dark Sun was just the AD&D rules sifted through a lens designed to create a magical post apocalyptic heroic fantasy setting. Any imbalances that the game contained were precisely because IT WAS NORMAL D&D. They were precisely created because of the problems AD&D mechanics had in terms of balance. They were designed to create balanced races, which is why races which had heavy pluses had heavy minuses, but these mechanics did not work so well. 4e moves away from these mechanics. A 4e Dark Sun will be to 4e what the 2e Dark Sun was to 2e. That means that 4e Dark Sun races should make motions to keep similar fluff, but should be balanced in 4e ways. Its because DARK SUN IS NORMAL D&D, its just has some post apocalyptic fluff thrown on top.
Balance in a game some times is pigeon holing. Good, deal with it, live with it, love it.
Um, wrong. Balance in 2e was some times pigeon holing. In 4e it is not. Live with it, love it.
DS is a harsh, brutal place, this makes it FUN. Keep the fun
That doesn't mean that classes and races should not be balanced using the 4e mechanics, just like 2e classes and races were "balanced" using the 2e mechanics.
Athasian Half-giant:
Large creature, Reach1 (note, in 4th ed, Reach is not the masssive advantage it was in 3rd)
+6 Strength, +4 Con, -4 Int and dex, -2 Cha and Wisdom.
Yes they are bloody INCREDIBLY storng and pretty damned tough!
But they are also slow of intellect, slow of reflex due to size and their build, but they can have reasonable wills and personality, but less than a normal Human though.
items cost x10 normal, (x8 weight, remember! nto x2, it's octupled, due to mass, 2x2x2 = 8, then add surcharge for making the unusual stuff)
double or quadruple water usage, cna't recall the 1st boxed set ruless off hand, large creatures actually lose less water, to an extent (less surface area to mass so less area to lose water form, but that also means they cna over heat easier)
half giant stomp or a knockback or such as racial power, is cool.
Now, here's something folk better understand: characters do not have to be OPTIMAL to be good!!
So what if a half giant templar isn't Fu Manchu! He can rip yer damned head off if all else fails, and take a licking and keep on kicking! ;)
Man, I hate "Optimizers" in a serious RPG session, fine when yer being more light hearted ;) but not when yer doing gritty dirty DS stuff.
Enjoy a character for what they are!
Awful, awful, awful suggestions for a 4e half giant. As it its a 4e half giant (not a 2e half giant, keep in mind) it should be built using what we have seen outlined in 4e rules. See how the minotaur used to be a large creature? See how its a medium creature for player characters?
Mouthymercs suggestion is the best one I have seen on this thread so far. Some racial feats that do things like add reach, give a damage bonus, or make a creature large, at heroic/paragon/epic tiers might be neat as well.
As I said in the beginning of this thread.... I DO NOT love it. That is not how a half-giant should be done in 4e. LOL.
I can understand if it doesn't fit with everyone's perceptions. I can tinker with it and come up with an alternative that is large. My preference is a medium-sized half-giant, but I'm not so stuck on it that I can not look into alternatives.
How about this:
HALF-GIANT
Average Height: 10' 5"-12' 11"
Average Weight: 1500-1800 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Large
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidation
Physically Intimidating: You may substitute your Strength modifier for your Charisma modifier when making Intimidate checks. You must be using your physical presence in the Intimidate action.
Half-Giant Durability: You gain a racial bonus of 2 + your Constitution bonus to your hit points.
Stomp: You can use stomp as an encounter power.
I'd say, take the large version, minus the durability and give them reach 2. No racial powers.
I think I prefer the large version, though I could be convinced otherwise. But I don't like the stomp power, not because it's a bad power, but because it seems utterly unrealistic in a way I can't ignore, without some sort of magical/psionic power behind it. And XPH to the contrary, I don't want all half-giants to be innately psionic.
I'd say, take the large version, minus the durability and give them reach 2. No racial powers.
Hmm, I was thinking that reach was implied in the build due to the large size, but you make a point that it should be spelled out in the racial traits.
Maybe this instead:
HALF-GIANT
Average Height: 10' 5"-12' 11"
Average Weight: 1500-1800 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Large
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidation
Half-Giant Durability: You gain a racial bonus of 2 + your Constitution bonus to your hit points.
Reach: The half-giants reach is 2 instead of 1.
Stomp: You can use stomp as an encounter power.
HALF-GIANT
Average Height: 10' 5"-12' 11"
Average Weight: 1500-1800 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Large
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidation
Half-Giant Durability: You gain a racial bonus of 2 + your Constitution bonus to your hit points.
Physically Intimidating: You may substitute your Strength modifier for your Charisma modifier when making Intimidate checks. You must be using your physical presence in the Intimidate action.
Reach: The half-giants reach is 2 instead of 1.
At first I was a little reticent letting go of the power as not too many races do not have one. Only the dwarf has no racial power in the PH so it is by no means common. We'll throw this out there and see what sticks.
Humans don't have a racial power either. Plus reach it a pretty awesome benefit, especially when combined with the obvious feat that provides threatening reach. This is a version I can get behind.
I'm also curious what would be the effect of giving a +4 Strength as the only ability score bonus (i.e. no bonus to Constitution as well). Thoughts?
Fighter
Paladins
Clerics
Rangers
Warlords
All have a strength based option. +4 Strength would be quite brutal and if done the half giant shouldn't really get any racial power or any other bonus except maybe reach 2 and +2 to Athletics and Intimidate or something like that.
I ran it with +4 stength but it seems slightly overpowered as most of the PHB races requir strength.
Fighter
Paladins
Clerics
Rangers
Warlords
All have a strength based option. +4 Strength woul be quite brutal and if done the half giant shouldn't really get any racial power or any other bonus except maybe reach 2 and +2 to Athletics and Intimidate or something like that.
I might be able to live with that. They are generally considered brutes who are only good at fighting. But it might be too much of a restriction. I'd have to test it to see, but I don't have a playtest group handy at the moment.
Humans don't have a racial power either.
Humans, similar to half-elves, gain a bonus customizable power.
HALF-GIANT
Average Height: 10' 5"-12' 11"
Average Weight: 1500-1800 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Large
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidation
Physically Intimidating: You may substitute your Strength modifier for your Charisma modifier when making Intimidate checks. You must be using your physical presence in the Intimidate action.
Half-Giant Durability: You gain a racial bonus of 2 + your Constitution bonus to your hit points.
Stomp: You can use stomp as an encounter power.
Except for Stomp, this I like!
I never saw those arguments against it as being all that great. I thought the psionic half-giant fit very well into the psionic world of Dark Sun.
It's quite simple: Nowhere in the flavor of DS does it say half-giants are able to stomp, as a race.
If one loves Stomp as a power so much, then make it a Psion daily power, and make it that a half-giant can take a feat or paragon path that makes Stomp into an encounter power instead.
Seems to me that some people just get stuck on a certain image and can not shake it or change it. That's all right for some, but some of us they just felt that they were too limiting.
Understand then that most efforts on WotC's Dark Sun forum and on Arena to make a 4e half-giant is in the optic of making it official, thus is constrained to be a conversion of the 2e DS half-giant. What you are proposing here is a homebrew version of the half-giant. There's a difference. This is the first time you made it clear which one you were trying to do.
Except for Stomp, this I like!
Check out he later go without stomp.
It's quite simple: Nowhere in the flavor of DS does it say half-giants are able to stomp, as a race.
If one loves Stomp as a power so much, then make it a Psion daily power, and make it that a half-giant can take a feat or paragon path that makes Stomp into an encounter power instead.
It fit with the large hulking creature that is the half-giant. And, anyways, as a racial power it wouldn't be considered psionic, arcane or anything else in 4E. As I already stated, if I attached any power source to it it would be primal. I much prefer the XPH half-giant. As far as 3E races it was a much better step towards making the race more viable for PCs.
Understand then that most efforts on WotC's Dark Sun forum and on Arena to make a 4e half-giant is in the optic of making it official, thus is constrained to be a conversion of the 2e DS half-giant. What you are proposing here is a homebrew version of the half-giant. There's a difference. This is the first time you made it clear which one you were trying to do.
Everything on here is homebrew unless someone here is working in an official capacity. I've never stated or purported to be anything other than a tinkerer. Sorry if my views do not fit in your neat little box, but I'm here to share ideas. You are free to agree or disagree, but please do not look down your nose at ideas that are outside of your neat little box. Some people may be interested in the idea or it may springboard an idea of their own. In the end, I am hear to contribute my ideas and, hopefully, help out with other people's ideas.
And I do not think my nose needs to be involved into this.
Cheap neat little box touchy feely comments aside, where have you been the past years? A rethorical question of course. If you weren't over at WotC's DS forums in any real sense, then I can understand the comments. Otherwise, be aware that athas.org's involvement and presence in the forums for the past years have created an enormous enthousiasm in the fans, who now no longer try to only present homebrew stuff (technically, there could be 100+ versions of the half-giant) but now also try to present a concensus version that most people can agree upon. That I need to spell this out tells me you're new or weren't much observing of the inner workings of the forums during your stay here. Personaly I'm not currently inclined to care either way, but then you're not engaged to care whether I care either, etc etc.
And I do not think my nose needs to be involved into this.
Hmm, I have been on the boards for a while, but not to the extent that some are. Mainly because of attitudes like yours. I came on to the WotC boards a couple of years ago to share ideas, but for the most part stayed away as too many people were rude and snide. You pretty much gave me the same attitude in another thread so it's nice to see that my initial impression of you wasn't off. The more things change the more they stay the same, eh?
I'll be interested to see what is done in with the Dark Sun campaign setting in 4E, if they choose to do so. Until then, I'll share my ideas, whether you feel they fit in your neat little box or not.
Thanks for playing.
Btw, DS' forum is about as nice and civil as you can get in any of WotC's...
Understand then that most efforts on WotC's Dark Sun forum and on Arena to make a 4e half-giant is in the optic of making it official, thus is constrained to be a conversion of the 2e DS half-giant. What you are proposing here is a homebrew version of the half-giant. There's a difference. This is the first time you made it clear which one you were trying to do.
So long as people try and create a 2e version of the half-giant, they will never succeed in converting the half-giant to 4e. You can't have a PC race with negative stats in 4e. Its against the 4e design mechanics. Whether you can even have a large creature is very questionable, though it is more doable (balance wise). 4e races are balanced against each other... that is just the way it works. If you are stuck in a 2e mindset then you have already failed at any attempt at a conversion before you even started.
Mechanically 2nd ed was a dog, Darksun in particular with variuous rules inconsistency and blatan powergaming large enough to drive a truck through.
Athas.org also does have a slight reputation of being somewhat elitist as Darksun does get mentioned alot on other threads and if you direct people ere or mention Athas.org there is often a semi negative comment although it is often polite like "I don't really like their stuff". Note the above is not supposed to be an attack on Aths.org just an observation. Alot of people also like it to be fair or have posted on the DS forums after you've provided a link or sent them a PM.
Half Giants should be large in 4th ed IMHO unless you are posting oin the 4th ed reboot thread which is basically saying Half Giants were never large to begin with. If Half Giants don't work at large size balance wise or gettign a playable race maybe look at downsizing them. Personally I'm looking at cutting Half Giants altogather and replacing them with a more iteresting race such as Pyreen as they are not going to do alot that can't be done by the Mul. Half Giants will survive as NPCs and be large. If you want a powerful Half Giant a'la 2nd ed it may be the best way of doing it- just don't make it a PC race. Ogre stats in the MM make a decent NPC Half Giant
The 2e half-giant is the goal because Dark Sun is a 2e product. (By default we don't even say 2e Dark Sun...we just call it Dark Sun, but its 3e conversion is refered to as DS3 if official or 3e Dark Sun if generic and possibly homebrew.) What do half-giants do? They're strong, dim-witted, large, bla bla, list goes on. This translated one way in 2e, was converted one way in 3e, and can be converted another way to 4e.
In no way should relics of previous editions affect a conversion to a new edition (i.e. ability score penalties). What is kept of the 2e half-giant is what I listed: Strong, dim-witted, large, etc. How that translates to 4e is the purpose (or so I believe) of threads such as this one.
Zardnaar, you'll remember legal constraints in athas.org's products, stating there could be no deviation from the original beyond a certain point, sparring conversion requirements. Hence the "stuck in 2nd ed mode". No idea what will happen with 4e, if we don't have rights, then homebrew will go through the roof, and if DS goes official but published by WotC, then there will be fan add-ons and tons of "I hate the new DS, here's MY 4e conversion".
Another example would be the focus on Dragon Kings.WHile kewl it seemd they were trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and you ended up with level 60 Sorcerer Kings and a poorly designed (IMHO) Dragon PrC. Also 3.5 epic levels sucked and didn't work and as I understand it some products had very little playtest feedback because.
1. Most people didn't play epic levels.
or
2. Product was to narrowly focused (Lifeshapers Handbook).
Things like the Athasian Emporium or a final version of the core DS rules would have been great or were great. Trying to make secular authority work was another headache along with the Gladiator class which realy could have been a profession skill or prestige class for martial type characters to take. How many variet Tempars/Defiler/Clerics have been posted in the last few years by various people o which several were better than the core document?
Athas.org worked with what they had, i.e. 3e. Hence my liking of 4e, which doesn't stop impressing me both in official releases and in ingenious fan ideas like the termplar one over at Arena.
And about fan-made classes being better...that's a loaded term. More powerful? Flavorful? More in line with what people want? Athas.org could not necessarily deliver any of that, what they needed to deliver was a balancing act. You know all about that anyway.
I wouldn't be against a partial reboot, no non-DS stuff introduced though (dragonborns, for example), a reboot that wouldn't make the fluff and flavor 2e and 3e stuff obsolete. Veiled Alliance could still be used, for example.
If well done, with taste, official through WotC, then we fans could go overboard producing adventures and rules and other add-on stuff.
Anyways, if they produce a settings book and rules book, just like for FR, and they write small (remember 3e FR's campaign setting book? you needed glasses to read that one), then they can cram pretty much all of Athas' known world into it.
I would boot back to 5 years before FY1, so that the PCs have a chance to grow in power and intervene in world affairs when the $hit hits the fan.
I would still keep Kalak dead if I could, maybe kill Abalach-Re, but not have Rajaat kill anyone else, so a bit of geopolitical destabilization in the region, but not too much like we have now.
And make the Marnita region more realistic and serious, so no sun-tanning or surfing. But that's easy.
Cyber-Dave
In no way should relics of previous editions affect a conversion to a new edition (i.e. ability score penalties). What is kept of the 2e half-giant is what I listed: Strong, dim-witted, large, etc. How that translates to 4e is the purpose (or so I believe) of threads such as this one.
How that translates to 4e might very well not appear, in any shape or form, mechanically, how it appeared in 2e. This should simply be accepted. For example, how strong would translate seems pretty self explanatory. +2 to strength. No PC races get more then a +2 to any one stat, and all races get this bonus to two stats. Dim-witted also seems pretty obvious. Their secondary bonus stat should definitely not be intelligence. Large, specifically, might not mean the mechanical "large" size. Minotaurs are large creatures. In 2e and 3e this was represented by the mechanical "large" size. In 4e this is represented by making them medium sized, and then giving them the oversized race ability.
There is nothing wrong with making the Half-Giant medium and giving it the oversized ability in order to represent its large size. It is not the only method of representing their size, but it is certainly not an inferior method either. Its also the best method we CURRENTLY have, because its the only method we have seen used by the designer to date. Nobody knows how to properly balance a large PC race yet... and its quite possible the way to balance a large PC race will be to never allow one (in 4e mechanical terms).
I'm fine with that as I never met someone in real life who actually played a Athasian Dragon anyway.
Hahahaha Ain't it the truth!!!!!
The Larger the creature the more it can advance since its steps are farther due too his "giant" legs.
It´s my opinion though
Thanks...
PS
Really looking forward to Templar 4E
i would like to point out that back in the days of second edition, the onlything being large meant was your equipment costed more, and alot of weapons did more damage to you, but you also did more damage.
back in second edition minatures were for those "rich kids" who could afford to play warhammer.
being large presents significantly more diffifulties in a minature based game. plus the mechanics of the game have changed significantly.
i would also like to say, the FLuFF of 2ed darksun was awesome. The game mechanics were TERRIBLE, infact i would call them the worst of all the 2ed box sets.
i'm not taking a side on the large vs med debates since i don't really know how being large works in 4e, but in 2ed it was mostly just a roleplaying tool. 4e is more of a squad based tactics game, and being large is alot more significant.
I agree with haferka in the issue regarding Speed: 7 squares... although there will have to reconsider the speed of the Athasian Elves.
The Larger the creature the more it can advance since its steps are farther due too his "giant" legs.
It´s my opinion though
Thanks...
PS
Really looking forward to Templar 4E
yes but whichwill win in a race, an elephant or a cheetah?
think of elves as cheetahs, and half giants as elephants.
yes but whichwill win in a race, an elephant or a cheetah?
think of elves as cheetahs, and half giants as elephants.
You got a good point with the cheetahs and elephants, and size L issue is interesting on the gear numbers. So far I dont see any problem with this half giant, but I think it should have some sort of GianT Power, dunno something that escalates it even more as strong brute (not that its dumb) but some power regarding his muscle.
Kinda of like rock throwing or throw something and swing his club at the same time. I´m really looking forward to the Athasian feats.
PS:
I want to convert Semponius of Asticles a major NPC (male human lvl 6 fighter) but I leave the powers for last hehehe... anybody knows where I can post it or do I make a new thread?
Thanks people.
Working for a better Athas...
Create your own thread, with a good name, and I'll list it in the Archive.
Thanks Penn already did it and put some advances on the NPC...
I put a good explanation on what my thread is going to do so everybody with thoughts and comments feel free to write
Thanks people
Half-Giant
Average Height: 10’ – 12’
Average Weight: 1500 – 1600 lbs.
Ability Scores: +4 Strength
Size: L
Speed: 6
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance, +2 Intimidate
Giant Heritage: You have the Giant keyword. Due to your Large size, you have Melee Reach 2 and double the carrying capacity of a Medium sized character. Large-sized mundane equipment costs and weighs fifty percent more than the equivalent medium sized equipment.
Healthy: You have an additional Healing Surge and add your Constitution modifier to your Healing Surge value.
Giant Strength: You can use Giant Strength as an encounter power.
Giant Strength
Encounter, Minor, Stance, Personal
Effect: You gain +5 to Strength checks and Strength based skill checks.
Overall Reasoning:
1) Dark Sun is a higher powered campaign than other settings. While using most of the 4E design philosophy is whole-heartedly recommended, a little across the board boost to PC races can be acceptable. Remember monsters are a bit tougher on Athas and monsters should also have a slight boost to their power, also.
2) The idea of a conversion is to stay true to the original source material as much as possible. This includes diverging from other conversions if doing so can fit the original better. That is not to say that newer ideas cannot be incorporated, especially when they fit to fluff.
Individual Reasoning:
1) +4 Strength -
In following with standard 4E practices, the total ability bonus is set at +4. However, putting all of the bonus into Strength is an exception to that practice. That said, the Half-Giant's traditional racial abilities have been exceptional physical statistics. Putting the entire bonus into a single attribute helps to differentiate a Half-Giant from other PC races and serves as a racial ability, of sorts, without granting a major statistical advantage (such as the +8 Strength, +4 Constitution monstrosity of the past). The damage and hit advantage is somewhat mitigated by the fact that secondary abilities of powers (including adding additional ability modifiers to attack and damage) do not benefit from any racial boost to a given statistic and only Fortitude defense is improved (its still a significant boost). The fact that Strength bonuses are only added once in nearly all cases also help mitigate the advantage.
2) Large Size (and Reach) -
10 - 12 Feet tall is Large. I understand that Wizards has stretched Medium and made certain special abilities to make certain larger races more balanced. Under 3E+, reach was far more powerful than it is now. In fact, with Combat Reflexes and an above average Dex score, it was much better than even Threatening Reach is now. Even so, I consider Reach to be a mechanical racial ability of the Half-Giant. In addition, Large size itself is both a hindrance and a boon to a creature. Even without reach, it allows more enemies to be adjacent and makes it more difficult to acquire cover and other defenses. On the other hand, it makes Close Burst powers somewhat larger and makes more damaging weapons available.
3) Speed 6 -
Half-Giants aren't particularly swift. Even with a larger stride, the fact that they have to carry far more mass would contribute to a normal speed. Anything faster would have to be considered an additional racial ability.
4) Skill Bonuses -
Endurance helps offset the lack of past Constitution bonuses and represents a natural hardiness of body. Intimidate helps reflect the imposing nature of a 12' tall behemoth trying to press his will upon others through the threat of violence.
5) Giant Heritage -
It puts the size benefits and reach ability into a mechanic. Though it also provides a minor mechanical hindrance to the character (increased equipment cost), it is not to the scope of a stat penalty or other major negative abilities. Giant keyword just makes sense.
6) Healthy -
Originally, I gave bonus hit points to represent the increased health of the old Half-Giant. Instead, I chose to represent this as increased ability to restore health. Effectively, this ability helps represent the higher hit points of past versions and helps off-set the lack of a Constitution bonus (while maintaining Constitution as a desirable ability).
7) Giant Strength -
In order to further highlight the massive strength of the race, without further increasing damage output, I decided that the racial power should revolve around Strength checks and skills. A large bonus to such skills is a way to allow the Half-Giants strength to be useful outside the combat role.
8) Lack of an Alignment thing -
Alignment has never been a real mechanic and never should have been used as a balancing factor or benefit for anything. The axial alignment concept for Half-Giants is a really interesting and flavorful concept and should be role-played by most Half-Giant characters.
Summary:
Five and a half abilities seem fair for Half-Giants (Size, Reach, Strength, Power, and Health as one and a half). It is not significantly more powerful than a PHB race, overall (which is the goal). The increased damage potential and output are there, but it is only a slightly higher than normal. There are plenty weaknesses to any build which places too much emphasis on Strength (always have been) and characters built off of other attributes can always fall back on their strength. The race has good staying power and has good potential for improvement through racial feats.
Potential Growth:
I haven't started on racial feats, yet. That does not say that there are no ideas for such feats. Threatening Reach is an obvious one, though I would have a limited form of it at Paragon and potentially fully allow it at Epic tier. Others include a Racial addition, replacement, or enhancement to the Toughness and/or Durable type feats. Intimidation boosting feats are also easy to imagine.
[Edit] Changed Giant's Strength to a Stance and updated Healthy.
I like the giant strength encounter power. It is good and reflective of the giants massive size, but not a game breaker.
how about having healthy be:
Healthy: You gain 1 extra healing surge. You also add your constitution modifier (if positive) to your healing surge value.
The idea of a conversion is to stay true to the original source material as much as possible.
Shhh, not too loudly, some people here don't like crazy talk like that. /Homer Simpson
I like the build, btw. Getting closer, and closer, and...
Giant Strength
Encounter, Minor, Personal
Effect: You gain +5 to Strength checks and Strength based skill checks. This lasts until the end of the encounter or 5 minutes, whichever is shorter.
Check out the definition of the Stance keyword, PHB 55.
I know I'm somewhat late to the game and there are a number of suggested Half-Giant ideas out there already. I'm still going to attempt to make the case for mine.
Overall Reasoning:
1) Dark Sun is a higher powered campaign than other settings. While using most of the 4E design philosophy is whole-heartedly recommended, a little across the board boost to PC races can be acceptable. Remember monsters are a bit tougher on Athas and monsters should also have a slight boost to their power, also.
2) The idea of a conversion is to stay true to the original source material as much as possible. This includes diverging from other conversions if doing so can fit the original better. That is not to say that newer ideas cannot be incorporated, especially when they fit to fluff.
Individual Reasoning:
1) +4 Strength -
In following with standard 4E practices, the total ability bonus is set at +4. However, putting all of the bonus into Strength is an exception to that practice. That said, the Half-Giant's traditional racial abilities have been exceptional physical statistics. Putting the entire bonus into a single attribute helps to differentiate a Half-Giant from other PC races and serves as a racial ability, of sorts, without granting a major statistical advantage (such as the +8 Strength, +4 Constitution monstrosity of the past). The damage and hit advantage is somewhat mitigated by the fact that secondary abilities of powers (including adding additional ability modifiers to attack and damage) do not benefit from any racial boost to a given statistic and only Fortitude defense is improved (its still a significant boost). The fact that Strength bonuses are only added once in nearly all cases also help mitigate the advantage.
2) Large Size (and Reach) -
10 - 12 Feet tall is Large. I understand that Wizards has stretched Medium and made certain special abilities to make certain larger races more balanced. Under 3E+, reach was far more powerful than it is now. In fact, with Combat Reflexes and an above average Dex score, it was much better than even Threatening Reach is now. Even so, I consider Reach to be a mechanical racial ability of the Half-Giant. In addition, Large size itself is both a hindrance and a boon to a creature. Even without reach, it allows more enemies to be adjacent and makes it more difficult to acquire cover and other defenses. On the other hand, it makes Close Burst powers somewhat larger and makes more damaging weapons available.
3) Speed 6 -
Half-Giants aren't particularly swift. Even with a larger stride, the fact that they have to carry far more mass would contribute to a normal speed. Anything faster would have to be considered an additional racial ability.
4) Skill Bonuses -
Endurance helps offset the lack of past Constitution bonuses and represents a natural hardiness of body. Intimidate helps reflect the imposing nature of a 12' tall behemoth trying to press his will upon others through the threat of violence.
5) Giant Heritage -
It puts the size benefits and reach ability into a mechanic. Though it also provides a minor mechanical hindrance to the character (increased equipment cost), it is not to the scope of a stat penalty or other major negative abilities. Giant keyword just makes sense.
6) Healthy -
Originally, I gave bonus hit points to represent the increased health of the old Half-Giant. Instead, I chose to represent this as increased ability to restore health. Effectively, this ability helps represent the higher hit points of past versions and helps off-set the lack of a Constitution bonus (while maintaining Constitution as a desirable ability).
7) Giant Strength -
In order to further highlight the massive strength of the race, without further increasing damage output, I decided that the racial power should revolve around Strength checks and skills. A large bonus to such skills is a way to allow the Half-Giants strength to be useful outside the combat role.
8) Lack of an Alignment thing -
Alignment has never been a real mechanic and never should have been used as a balancing factor or benefit for anything. The axial alignment concept for Half-Giants is a really interesting and flavorful concept and should be role-played by most Half-Giant characters.
Summary:
Five and a half abilities seem fair for Half-Giants (Size, Reach, Strength, Power, and Health as one and a half). It is not significantly more powerful than a PHB race, overall (which is the goal). The increased damage potential and output are there, but it is only a slightly higher than normal. There are plenty weaknesses to any build which places too much emphasis on Strength (always have been) and characters built off of other attributes can always fall back on their strength. The race has good staying power and has good potential for improvement through racial feats.
Potential Growth:
I haven't started on racial feats, yet. That does not say that there are no ideas for such feats. Threatening Reach is an obvious one, though I would have a limited form of it at Paragon and potentially fully allow it at Epic tier. Others include a Racial addition, replacement, or enhancement to the Toughness and/or Durable type feats. Intimidation boosting feats are also easy to imagine.
Horribly broken. Even more so in light of some design notes that state that no PC player race will even get the oversized mechanic... (released along with the PC minotaur stats, which remove this ability from PC minotaurs).
Honestly, I am starting to lean towards half-giants might have to be a NPC race. That, or the ability to use weapons larger then you will have to be a per encounter stance power instead of a permanent ability.
Half Giant
Racial Traits
Average Height: 9’ 10” – 12’6˝
Average Weight: 1500-1600 lb.
Ability Scores: +4 Strength
Size: Large
Reach: 2
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low Light
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidate,
Reach
Recover: Half Giants gain an extra healing surge per day.
Even more so in light of some design notes that state that no PC player race will even get the oversized mechanic... (released along with the PC minotaur stats, which remove this ability from PC minotaurs).
Link please. No idea what you're talking about.
Horribly broken. Even more so in light of some design notes that state that no PC player race will even get the oversized mechanic... (released along with the PC minotaur stats, which remove this ability from PC minotaurs).
Honestly, I am starting to lean towards half-giants might have to be a NPC race. That, or the ability to use weapons larger then you will have to be a per encounter stance power instead of a permanent ability.
What is horribly broken about it? Have you ever looked at previous editions' Half-Giant races? If so, you'd say its quite an improvement. You should provide reasoning to the discussion, rather than unsupported assessments.
The differences between +4 Str and the combo of +2 Str and Con are:
+1 Str Attack and Damage (common)
+1 Str modifier secondary effects (uncommon)
+1 Fort
+1 Athletics Checks
-1 Con Attack and Damage (uncommon)
-1 Con modifier secondary effects (common)
-1 Endurance Checks
-2 Base HP
-1 Healing Surge
The positive is enough to warrant treating the +4 Str as a racial ability, but not so much that it breaks the game.
Most Fighter secondary abilities that add damage are based on Con modifier. Ranger secondary abilities seem to be based on Dex and Wis. Warlord secondary abilities are based on Int and Cha. Barbarian appears to use Con and Cha as secondary abilities. Rogues can use Str for some secondary abilities, but no bonus to Dex makes the primary less effective. Secondary abilities often provide much larger boosts to damage (and occasionally attack rolls) than the +1 bonus you get through your primary ability. Honestly, I believe that +2 to two separate abilities provides for a more effective build, but reduces the flavor of the half-giant (due to being reduced to equal footing with other Str boost races, such as Muls)
Dark Sun is supposed to have slightly more powerful PCs (race is a large part of it). The statistical advantages are very small, especially since it is really easy to do more damage with two high stats than one slightly higher stat. Also, Reach, while strong, has the primary effect of reducing necessary mobility rather than improving damage output (by increasing available targets). Reach is already available to existing PC races, it is just more available to this Half-Giant build. A Half-Giant with the available polearms has quite a reach (3), but that is something that is (again) already available to other PCs and doesn't really maximize damage output. If Reach is the problem, give me an example of why.
The only potential issue I really see is the use of larger weaponry. At higher levels, the weapon damage multipliers are exasperated when using the boosted weapon damage from a size increase. That said, there are 3 currently printed weapons that go above 12 damage (max) per multiplier with the size increase, one of which has any special properties and it is Superior. One Superior weapon receives a very large increase in minimum damage (from 3-12 to 6-12) but has the same maximum damage it has at Medium size. Thus, after looking at the numbers deeper, I don't believe that to be a major problem.
I don't see a problem with the Giant Strength power being a stance. I had overlooked the 5-minute clause on stances. I'll adjust it in my notes/post.
Yes, a Large creature is better with weapons. That's part of why it is a racial ability and not an arbitrary statistic. I don't see why a higher damage potential is necessarily bad. Its incorporated/calculated as a boon for the race and is one of the few mechanical benefits of being large.
The benefits of other races in the setting will be interesting and effective enough to compensate for their (relatively) decreased damage potential. It should be understood that PCs need to be a little more powerful in the setting (PHB races included) in order to capture the conversion. If your Dark Sun PC (or monsters, for that matter) can be ported directly into a normal 4E DnD game, then the conversion is a failure.
You do know ability scores ranged from 5-20 before ability score modifiers, right? Oh, how many tears will be shed when the Dragon, Avangion, Elemental, and the other Epic Destinies are converted from Dragon Kings?
well its over powered for players handbook, but the poster intentionally stated that he was assuming all the darksun creatures and player races would be about equally overpowered. this is a time honored tradition of darksun (haha)!
the main issue seems to be oversized weapons. I personally would allow giants to use the same weapons in the players handbook (and AV) for the same damage (as medium sized creatures), but have their large size increase the reach of these weapons.
IMO They are already getting extra damage from strength, this should be enough. I mean you can only make a weapon so big before it loses its effectiveness anyways. all that 3E monkey grip bullhooey - there was a reason two handed swords are called 2 HANDED SWORDS!
What is horribly broken about it?
Lets see, first of all you made it sized large. Sized large means wielding large size weapons. 4e key developers have stated that no PC race will ever be given this ability.
Then, instead of keeping to the 4e mechanic of having +2 to 2 stats, you gave it a +4 to one stat. A +4 to one stat is considered to be far more powerful then a +2 to 2 stats due to the fact that it is a stacked bonus. Your assessment of the benefits/penalties is not accurate, because you do not account that the benefits that the extra +2 to strength grant you are on TOP of the benefits that the first +2 to strength granted you. Nor do you account for the fact that in 4e, a +1/-1 to d20 rolls is a LOT more influential than it ever was in previous editions (due to the math behind the bonuses to attack and defense, and the way these numbers increase with levels). This is only exacerbated by the bonus to damage that a large sized creature will have.
Basically, what you have created is bar none the BEST possible race for a high fortitude/damage dealing class. Pretty much every fighter, barbarian, paladin, or duel wielding ranger should ALWAYS play this race.
It is horribly broken.
He isn't working on the Dark Sun campaign setting conversion.
He is pretty much the mind behind 4e in general. You should take his word for things when it comes to 4e and 4e philosophy of game design.
This setting, however, requires a re-balancing, within itself, of the core system to be an effective conversion, in any case. This may not be easy, but it is necessary to fit the flavor (both mechanically and thematically).
No, it really doesn't, and no, its really not.
The 4e races already very nicely fit Dark Sun flavor as written. They do not need to be modified. The elf is perfect for a Dark Sun elf (with its faster movement and ability to reroll attack rolls). So is the halfing. So are all of them. Any new races created for a 4e version of dark sun should be balanced against the RAW 4e races. If it is not, it is not a good conversion. If you want to in some way show that Dark Sun characters are "stronger" or more physically "evolved" (in order to deal with their tougher environment) then a regular 4e character you do this by granting Dark Sun characters a higher point buy value then you would in a regular 4e D&D game, you don't do this by making broken races.
Any 4e half-giant designed for PC play that includes a +4 to strength, the large size, or even the oversized trait, is demonstrability an AWFUL 4e race. This is because it does not conform to 4e design mechanics. Thus, it has no place in a 4e Dark Sun. Key word here, 4e. If you want to play a 3e Dark Sun or a 2e Dark Sun, with the broken balance aspects of those editions, more power to you. But, the broken balance aspects of those editions should not be transferred into 4e when converting Dark Sun to 4e. Part of the key mechanic of 4e is good balance. Giving a race a stacked +4 strength (instead of +2 to two stats) and large size destroys all semblances of balance. Such a race is a clear prime-ultimate choice when building a high fortitude defense/damage dealing character. In 2e, and even 3e (though to a lesser extent), the game mechanics allowed for races which were obviously designed to be the best possible choice for a specific class. 4e does not allow for this. A races stats might give a nod towards specific class choices (and thus the half-giant should receive a +2 to Strength and Constitution, and maybe a per encounter stance that allows it the use of the oversized trait while it is stanced), but they should never make it hands down the best possible choice.
P.S. I may have messed up some of the notation for the stance power, so if anyone wants to fix the wording/notation of the power (if I did in fact make a mistake) please feel free to do so.
P.P.S. It is still perfectly acceptable to include large sized NPC half-giants, or NPC half giants that have the oversized ability as a race trait. Perhaps PC half-giants are the runts of the litter. Perhaps NPC half giants will have much lower int/cha scores and in return have higher strength/con scores. But, these NPC half giants are not PC half giants. 4e PC half giants must be balanced against other 4e PC races.
HALF-GIANT
Average Height: 7'6"-8'
Average Weight: 420-480 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Athletics, +2 Intimidation
Toppling Giant: If you are reduced to 0 hit points, you can make a melee basic attack as free action before falling unconscious.
Hauler: Your strength is considered to be 4 points higher then it actually is for the purpose of calculation your carrying capacity.
Hefty Grip: You can use Hefty Grip as an encounter power.
And I do not consider it wise to take the PHB races as they are, for Dark Sun, because many of those abilities are not stuff the races are known to be able to perform in the first place. D&D races and their Dark Sun counterparts always did differ. Dwarves are nearly identical, while halflings, for one thing, are nothing but different. Many abilities are appropriate, many aren't, and many are missing.
Not bad with the powers, Cyber-Dave. Toppling Giant should be reserved for PC tareks, not for half-giants, though.
Meh. I sort of felt toppling giant was a nice way to get across the idea of "large size" without actually granting a PC race large size.
And I do not consider it wise to take the PHB races as they are, for Dark Sun, because many of those abilities are not stuff the races are known to be able to perform in the first place. D&D races and their Dark Sun counterparts always did differ. Dwarves are nearly identical, while halflings, for one thing, are nothing but different. Many abilities are appropriate, many aren't, and many are missing.
I reread the race entries in the original Dark Sun boxed set, and I disagree. Certainly there were differences to be sure, but I don't believe these differences were as large as you are making out. Moreover, I believe that the 4e racial stats are far more accommodating to the Dark Sun fluff then you claim. I think halflings, elves, and even dwarves, fit perfectly (stat wise) as written in the PHB. If I were to make any changes, I might change a halflings +2 to CHA to a +2 to WIS in Dark Sun, but that is about it. Some Dwarf racial feats that represent their ability to "focus" is also in order... but that is just the edition of a feat. The 4e elf in particular I feel is a 100% perfect fit for the Dark Sun elves.
Reach: 2
Saves: +1 Will (due to his axis alignment bizarre demeanor lol)
As for the rest I like that it´s big yeah but clumsy so a Speed: 6 is ok by me hehehe you could implement the no encumbrance from heavy armor and the like. I think we could look into it. The low light vision is nice it goes well with his giant heritage (lol)...
Anyway hope it gets done properly, thanks people
Let´s keep working on Athas.
I like the idea of the Hefty Grip power it goes well with the athasian Half Giant style... I would also like to comment that it really should have:
Reach: 2
Saves: +1 Will (due to his axis alignment bizarre demeanor lol)
As for the rest I like that it´s big yeah but clumsy so a Speed: 6 is ok by me hehehe you could implement the no encumbrance from heavy armor and the like. I think we could look into it. The low light vision is nice it goes well with his giant heritage (lol)...
Anyway hope it gets done properly, thanks people
Let´s keep working on Athas.
I think the general thought was that reach 2 may make for an over powered race.. am i right?.. i thin over sized weapons would be a better representation of size