I am actually disappointed to a large extent. Of course, my opinion is only one of many, so I thought I'd ask what others think. And who knows...if enough of us are unhappy, maybe a change or two will be made.
Of all the traditional races I would rate them as follows (1 being the most liked) for their 4e versions:
1. Halflings
2. Elves
3. Muls (I like their racial encounter power...but I would like to see more mechanical benefits related to their toughness)
4. Thrikreen (very disappointed that their racial encounter power is a standard action...and would like to see more that will make them the fierce mantis warriors they were in previous editions)
5. Halfgiants-Goliath (not large sized, a subpar racial encounter power, not even a distinct race...just a warmed over Goliath, all adds up to "boo" for me)
With the above said, I am very excited for the release of 4e Dark Sun--even if there are several things that I wish were different. What about you all? What are your opinions?
I realize that we only have a limited view of what each race will look like at this point (no feat support, etc.). But based upon what has been revealed so far, are you all content, thrilled, unhappy, upset, etc. about the 4e versions of these traditional Dark Sun races?
If you're unhappy, what would you want to be different or added?
Thanks!
3. Muls (I like their racial encounter power...but I would like to see more mechanical benefits related to their toughness)
How so? Aren't all of their racial features related to their toughness? What more could you want? Because I'm betting that their racial paragon path and all of their racial feats will be related to that as well.
4. Thrikreen (very disappointed that their racial encounter power is a standard action...
It's a pretty safe bet that their racial power being a standard action was a typo. The original version of it was minor and was balanced. Standard didn't to anything but underpower it.
5. Halfgiants-Goliath (not large sized...
This was never going to happen. Large size cannot be balanced on a PC race in 4E. They were either going to be medium or unplayable. Take your pick.
It's not everyone's cup of tea, of course, but in the worse case scenario you can probably adapt the racial paragon paths to be racial features or lower-tier options.
@Crimson I guess we just disagree on the races...no problem with that.
@ascottbay You may be right by saying that, in 4e, the races will have to grow into resembling their previous edition forms. Adapting racial feats, paragon path features, etc. into racial features might be the way for me to go, as I don't think that I'll be content with what is published.
Well if the tri keen's racial power does turn out to be a standard action, at least the minotaur won't feel quites as lonely.
I can't tell whether you're joking because this is the internet, but on the off chance that you're not, my reply will simply be that two wrongs don't make a right.
The standard action to make 3 attacks against adjacent foes is underpowered?
Yes, very. Compare to the Dragonborn racial power. But it's not just that it's underpowered. It's also that it's not very well designed to consider that not all Thri-Kreen are going to ever want to be in melee for that long. A standard action melee racial power is never going to get used by non-melee characters, and that defeats the whole point of racial powers to begin with.
I like the Goliath being used as Half-Giants, it just makes sense to me.
I'm confident that with the release of the DSCG, there will be a selection of racial feats to enhance the flavor of the races in Dark Sun context, not to mention any future books and Insider content.
3. Muls (I like their racial encounter power...but I would like to see more mechanical benefits related to their toughness)
Extra healing surges, a bonus to Con, a bonus to Endurance, not needing to sleep, and a toughness racial power aren't... enough?
5. Halfgiants-Goliath (not large sized, a subpar racial encounter power, not even a distinct race...just a warmed over Goliath, all adds up to "boo" for me)
Goliath are the perfect match for Half-Giants. Half-Giants were a race whose fluff pieces basically boiled down to "really dumb, idolize/imitate other races, randomize alignment." Goliath kept the important bit (idolize/imitate other races) and got rid of the crap (half-giant = retarded child), while 4E got rid of the other crap (alignment dictating action). Add in the utterly awesome Goliath-specific fluff (competition-oriented, honest, dedicated), and I still feel we have a winner.
As has been discussed ad nauseum, you can't make a PC race large without breaking everything. This isn't some minor "oh that's only for WoW players who are competing for DPR" balance issue. Making a melee-oriented PC large trivializes the rest of the party, the disparity is so... large. And as it is, Goliath are literally the closest you can get to a large race, with a racial Paragon Path that permanently increases reach.
Also, the Goliath racial is far from subpar.
You mentioned it yourself, as did some other posters, but a lot of the racial traits of past editions comes in the form of feat support (which is quite extensive for most races). The game assumes that PCs are not the exemplar of their race unless they've invested in becoming one of those iconic individuals.
I think the thri-kreen power is great, compared to Dragonborn. (I'm not dissing Dragonborn though) Thri-Kreen's power does more damage, doesn't hit allies, and it's just plain damage so it can't be affected by resistances (Most of the time). To make it minor action would over-power it incredibly and shame the dragonborn. Think about it you can hit 4 or more enemies with the claws and then a normal attack.
I think the thri-kreen power is great, compared to Dragonborn. (I'm not dissing Dragonborn though) Thri-Kreen's power does more damage, doesn't hit allies, and it's just plain damage so it can't be affected by resistances (Most of the time). To make it minor action would over-power it incredibly and shame the dragonborn. Think about it you can hit 4 or more enemies with the claws and then a normal attack.
Even if it were overpowered as a minor action (and I don't think that it is), at least then it would be properly designed.
Forgive me, but I am rather new to Fourth, with Dark Sun being one of the major reasons for my return to the game. I know some have said this has been discussed before, but what are the major concerns over Large sized PCs? Is it just that reach and large sized weaponry greatly increase melee damage potential?
The problem in large sized PCs are quite a few:
Close Burst powers are so much more effective.
Large base means more enemies potentially adjacent, so more enemies potentially hitting you, more enemies potentially flanking you and less places you can pass through.
Need for a rewrite on the squeezing ruling for large creatures.
Of course, you can house rule most of this stuff if you really really want Large Half-giants, but you can't escape some balance issues
Squeezing will rarely if ever become a serious drawback because to use it often enough to actually impede the half-giant would be terribad encounter design.
But there is another point of view that, I think, is at least worthy of consideration. Halfgiants of previous editions did have advantages due to their size...and no apology was made for that fact. Those advantages were part of what made halfgiants what they were. Personally, to take away those advantages results in something much different than a halfgiant (namely, the goliath).
Now don't get me wrong, I enjoy game systems that allow any race-class combo to be competitive. But even in 4e, there are some races which are significantly better suited for certain classes than other races. So, for me, had they allowed the halfgiant to be better suited for melee classes or defender roles due to their size, it would not have been ground breaking. And, I'm sure, if done correctly, not game breaking either.
I respect every opinion that has been voiced. Thanks to everyone that has posted!
The problems comes if you allow large reach creatures you run into issues like dual wielded executioners axes at first level - with reach. And once you hit ED you can end up with dual wielded large executioners axes hitting 3 squares away.
Yes, this is true. It could be very ugly, heh. Some players might be OK with that--especially if enough improvements were made to the other races to keep help them "keep up" sort of speak.
Personally, I would prefer a compromise of some sort. Maybe give halfgiants reach and a scaling bonus to damage rolls with 2handed weapons wielded in 2 hands. This would give them some of the halfgiant large size "feel," without some of the large size balance issues coming into play. However, some may think that this is overpowered as well.
But, as I said above, I'm no game designer. There are far more talented individuals who, I'm sure, could come up with some way of holding closer to the halfgiant race of previous editions and at the same time maintain balance that most people are comfortable with.
The only way to balance it the old way maybe would be if the rpg was point-based, like the trolls in earthdawn and shadowrun. CQFD.
Still, I think I'm gonna homebrew a Half-Giant race when I run my Dark Sun campaign. Yes, Goliaths fill a big-strong-guy slot in the current list of races, but so do Bugbears and Minotaurs. In my humblest of opinions, Goliaths are just as poor a substitute for 12-foot, 1600 pound behemoths as these other two races.
Fluff-wise, Half-Giants lose a great deal of what made them fearsome and foreboding if we make them only slightly taller than Elves and Kreen. If a Templar with two Goliaths shows up for combat, my PC's won't be as apprehensive as they would if the Templar had been escorted by honest-to-goodness Half-Giants, instead.
I remember reading an interview once where Troy Denning said that part of the reason Dark Sun was created was to have an advanced campaign setting where they could throw balance to the wind and play crazy-powerful characters. That's one of the things that always drew me to the setting. An entry level Dark Sun character made a regular D&D character look like a wuss.
Thanks for the responses, everyone! I definitely can see how unbalancing Large PC's can be for the game.
Still, I think I'm gonna homebrew a Half-Giant race when I run my Dark Sun campaign. Yes, Goliaths fill a big-strong-guy slot in the current list of races, but so do Bugbears and Minotaurs. In my humblest of opinions, Goliaths are just as poor a substitute for 12-foot, 1600 pound behemoths as these other two races.
Fluff-wise, Half-Giants lose a great deal of what made them fearsome and foreboding if we make them only slightly taller than Elves and Kreen. If a Templar with two Goliaths shows up for combat, my PC's won't be as apprehensive as they would if the Templar had been escorted by honest-to-goodness Half-Giants, instead.
I remember reading an interview once where Troy Denning said that part of the reason Dark Sun was created was to have an advanced campaign setting where they could throw balance to the wind and play crazy-powerful characters. That's one of the things that always drew me to the setting. An entry level Dark Sun character made a regular D&D character look like a wuss.
This is of the same sentiment I am trying to convey.
I want the 1600 pound halfgiant behemoths of 2e...the deadly kreen of 2e...and though I like the muls of 4e, I'd something more for them as well.
If anyone has homebrew ideas, I'd love to hear them!
The only way to balance it the old way maybe would be if the rpg was point-based, like the trolls in earthdawn and shadowrun. CQFD.
Also...what does CQFD mean?
CQFD=Ce Qu'il Fallait Demontrer. The french for the old latin conclusion Quod Erat Demonstratum (spelling?).
That could also help balance out a large Half Giant... having a 12' killing machine in your party isn't as attractive when he's drinking all the water.
I think that would just lead to people not playing half-giants, unless rations are trivialized, in which case there isn't balance.
As for fearsome/imposing goliaths alongside a templar, this can be done in two ways (without homebrewing): build up a reputation for the templar's bodyguards so that their name alone inspires fear; or use a giant.
AD&D and pretty much all D&D pre-4e was based on the idea of fragile low-level characters slowly getting stronger, to which I can understand the appeal of beefing up a setting like Dark Sun so that the rules support more robust characters from the beginning. But 4e begins with the assumption that PCs are capable and competent - a level 1 PC in 4e is already a force to be reckoned with. 4e addresses from the start what Dark Sun compensated for in AD&D.
A party of level 1 thri-kreen could easily raid a village. A level 1 templar can bully around slaves and even people on the street, as long as they don't mess with other adventuring types or hidden badasses. They are already exceptional, by virtue of being PCs, and they will face other exceptional things, as well, except for when the narrative reminds them of their relative power.
Thanks for the responses, everyone! I definitely can see how unbalancing Large PC's can be for the game.
Still, I think I'm gonna homebrew a Half-Giant race when I run my Dark Sun campaign. Yes, Goliaths fill a big-strong-guy slot in the current list of races, but so do Bugbears and Minotaurs. In my humblest of opinions, Goliaths are just as poor a substitute for 12-foot, 1600 pound behemoths as these other two races.
Fluff-wise, Half-Giants lose a great deal of what made them fearsome and foreboding if we make them only slightly taller than Elves and Kreen. If a Templar with two Goliaths shows up for combat, my PC's won't be as apprehensive as they would if the Templar had been escorted by honest-to-goodness Half-Giants, instead.
I remember reading an interview once where Troy Denning said that part of the reason Dark Sun was created was to have an advanced campaign setting where they could throw balance to the wind and play crazy-powerful characters. That's one of the things that always drew me to the setting. An entry level Dark Sun character made a regular D&D character look like a wuss.
This is of the same sentiment I am trying to convey.
I want the 1600 pound halfgiant behemoths of 2e...the deadly kreen of 2e...and though I like the muls of 4e, I'd something more for them as well.
If anyone has homebrew ideas, I'd love to hear them!
i'd seriously consider making the Half Giants an NPC race then and not worry about PC Race balance at all since it sounds like you may want to use them primarily as antagonists?
I want the 1600 pound halfgiant behemoths of 2e...the deadly kreen of 2e...and though I like the muls of 4e, I'd something more for them as well.
Honestly, if you feel this way, you should play Dark Sun with the original 2E rules and races. 4E is a different game and asking it to emulate 2E goes against the system they are creating. If you want 2E races, play 2E. I can make a templar and two goliaths just as fearsome for my players as I could in 2E with a templar and two half-giants, but it is all in the description. While Dark Sun is my favorite setting, the half-giant was one of the few things that really annoyed me with how it was limited in class choice and the fact that a majority of its hinderances were left to DM fiat. I'm probably one of the few people that liked the revamped half-giant in the 3.5E EPH where it was changed to a medium race. I'm really enjoying the new take on the races.
i'd seriously consider making the Half Giants an NPC race then and not worry about PC Race balance at all since it sounds like you may want to use them primarily as antagonists?
This. The best the designers could do without breaking the game was substituting the goliath stats for half-giants. Unless you want to do 2nd edition or 3.5 rules.
If you were to homebrew a Half-Giant, you'd want it to be both larger and stronger than other PC races, so besides large size it needs at least a +4 bonus to strength if not +6. Racial penalties don't do as much in 4e unless you apply them to multiple abiliy scores (i.e. -2 dex, int, wis, and cha). So you've got a large race which is going to be the best melee character in the game because he gets:
1) a bonus to hit from his higher strength,
2) a damage bonus from higher strength AND larger weapons (one that approaches the damage bonus striker classes get), and indirectly a damage boost from a slightly higher accuracy,
3) close burst attacks which hit more enemies,
4) A huge defensive boost from reach,
5) a likely defense boose from a con bonus or something else to boose healing surges, as well as higher fort from the huge strength,
6) an arbitrary penalty probably to both initiative and will-defense, and maybe one less trained skill. Maybe no action points?
7) has interesting RP benefits from variable alignment and tendencies to immitate strong personalities around him.
Sounds pretty overpowered to me, and I wouldn't want to play with one in my group. Unless you're giving the other PCs a few bonus feats and/or stat-bumps to make up for it. At least a damage boosting feat, an accuracy boosting feat, and then some. Then you've got problems with what monsters, traps, and hazards you can use because your PCs are all significantly more powerful.
I'm sure you could make it work somehow (particularly with a smaller group), but I think it'd take a very understanding group of players and a lot more than homebrewing one race. If you have an understanding group of players, they'd probably also accept the half-giants as NPC only ruling.
In my opinion, when you update a campaign setting for a newer ruleset, the rule of thumb should be to preserve as much of the atmosphere as possible, then alter the crunch to fit the fluff. It should not be the reverse, or else you begin to lose a part of what defined the setting.
Now, I can certainly understand making some changes to the core story. We are all aware that Athas has had its quirks. However, there is a difference between ironing out a few kinks and completely changing things.
I can understand using Goliath stats for Half Giants, even if I disagree with it. What I cannot understand is retconning Half Giants to look exactly like Goliaths in Fourth. Even if you do decrease their size to Medium, why did they have to have the grey, striped skin? They do not look like Athasian giants or Athasian humans, now. That doesnt make sense to me. I fear they will do the same thing with Dragonborn. Dray should not look like Dragonborn, because Athasian dragons do not look like core Dragons. I doubt Dregoth would pride himself on creating a race in his own image if that race ended up looking nothing like him.
And we already know that they are willing to alter the campaign setting storyline in order to try to force it to fit with Fourth edition conventions, with the chatter about the Primordials defeating the gods. All I am trying to say is that the rules should conform to the setting, not the other way around.
Honestly, if I do not care for the new DSCG, I probably will end up playing a Second Ed game, instead.
Unbalanced playable races are a no no for me.
What I cannot understand is retconning Half Giants to look exactly like Goliaths in Fourth. Even if you do decrease their size to Medium, why did they have to have the grey, striped skin? They do not look like Athasian giants or Athasian humans, now. That doesnt make sense to me. I fear they will do the same thing with Dragonborn. Dray should not look like Dragonborn, because Athasian dragons do not look like core Dragons. I doubt Dregoth would pride himself on creating a race in his own image if that race ended up looking nothing like him.
This, however, is a concern that I totally understand and in large part agree with. I started playing in 3E and so this is going to be the first Dark Sun material for an edition that I'm actually playing, but even I know that Half-Giants in Dark Sun never had the same sort of look as Goliaths have, and I think that's really weird that they would change the illustration this way when the only thing that Half-Giants should be taking from Goliaths are their mechanics.
What I cannot understand is retconning Half Giants to look exactly like Goliaths in Fourth. Even if you do decrease their size to Medium, why did they have to have the grey, striped skin? They do not look like Athasian giants or Athasian humans, now. That doesnt make sense to me. I fear they will do the same thing with Dragonborn. Dray should not look like Dragonborn, because Athasian dragons do not look like core Dragons. I doubt Dregoth would pride himself on creating a race in his own image if that race ended up looking nothing like him.
This, however, is a concern that I totally understand and in large part agree with. I started playing in 3E and so this is going to be the first Dark Sun material for an edition that I'm actually playing, but even I know that Half-Giants in Dark Sun never had the same sort of look as Goliaths have, and I think that's really weird that they would change the illustration this way when the only thing that Half-Giants should be taking from Goliaths are their mechanics.
Agreed. But I still have some hope for the reimagined Dark Sun. Some of the details will be different, but I'll still relive all my adolescent dreams.
What I cannot understand is retconning Half Giants to look exactly like Goliaths in Fourth. Even if you do decrease their size to Medium, why did they have to have the grey, striped skin? They do not look like Athasian giants or Athasian humans, now. That doesnt make sense to me. I fear they will do the same thing with Dragonborn. Dray should not look like Dragonborn, because Athasian dragons do not look like core Dragons. I doubt Dregoth would pride himself on creating a race in his own image if that race ended up looking nothing like him.
This, however, is a concern that I totally understand and in large part agree with. I started playing in 3E and so this is going to be the first Dark Sun material for an edition that I'm actually playing, but even I know that Half-Giants in Dark Sun never had the same sort of look as Goliaths have, and I think that's really weird that they would change the illustration this way when the only thing that Half-Giants should be taking from Goliaths are their mechanics.
Agreed. But I still have some hope for the reimagined Dark Sun. Some of the details will be different, but I'll still relive all my adolescent dreams.
See I cannot understand this. It's a minor detail that can easily be changed. As a DM you mention that Goliaths are not Grey and stripped, but resemble tanned giants. If you a PC simply ask the DM "Hey can Half-Giants resemble a standard giant or be purple or whatever" something like that most DMs will be cool with.
What I cannot understand is retconning Half Giants to look exactly like Goliaths in Fourth. Even if you do decrease their size to Medium, why did they have to have the grey, striped skin? They do not look like Athasian giants or Athasian humans, now. That doesnt make sense to me. I fear they will do the same thing with Dragonborn. Dray should not look like Dragonborn, because Athasian dragons do not look like core Dragons. I doubt Dregoth would pride himself on creating a race in his own image if that race ended up looking nothing like him.
This, however, is a concern that I totally understand and in large part agree with. I started playing in 3E and so this is going to be the first Dark Sun material for an edition that I'm actually playing, but even I know that Half-Giants in Dark Sun never had the same sort of look as Goliaths have, and I think that's really weird that they would change the illustration this way when the only thing that Half-Giants should be taking from Goliaths are their mechanics.
The answer is: consistency.
Changing the looks of half giants/goliaths to fit the previous edition imagery would have meant all future illustrations of half giants in other products would have been invalid for DS. Every book on goliaths, any racial path, all MM entries, all that was built over Goliaths wouldn't have translated easily to DS.
Homebrew is an easy solution to those who knew the 2nd edition Half Giant looks and want to bring it back; for all the people who didn't play 2nd edition or don't care, Half Giants looking just like Goliath is a massively favourable solution.
Honestly, how difficult would it have been to make Athasian half giants look like they ought to, with a small caveat that they follow the rules for Goliaths and can be given all the options available for that race? Certainly not that much more difficult than hairless Dwarves...
The answer is: consistency.
Changing the looks of half giants/goliaths to fit the previous edition imagery would have meant all future illustrations of half giants in other products would have been invalid for DS. Every book on goliaths, any racial path, all MM entries, all that was built over Goliaths wouldn't have translated easily to DS.
Homebrew is an easy solution to those who knew the 2nd edition Half Giant looks and want to bring it back; for all the people who didn't play 2nd edition or don't care, Half Giants looking just like Goliath is a massively favourable solution.
I suspect you're right, after a fashion. As it stands we seem to have feral halflings and hairless dwarves, they need new art and new minis. Not a problem. Keeping half-giants the same lets us keep using our pittance of official goliath minis, despite the fact that "familiar races aren't what we expect", and helps keep the goliath (half-giant) distinct from other races in both internal art and minis. Its seemingly the same reason deva got stilly wing-like clothes and stripes too. Familiar races may still look familiar in DS, hopefully they officially won't act too familiar.
The entire point of a campaign setting, though, is inconsistency with the core world. Even more so for Dark Sun. It has always been deliberately and unapologetically inconsistent with the rest of the DnD world. By this logic, Athasian Dwarves should wear full beards and long braids, to preserve their consistency with imagery in other books. Athasian Elves should be forest dwellers, since all the other core books talk about Elves as living in the woods, and that could confuse players.
Honestly, how difficult would it have been to make Athasian half giants look like they ought to, with a small caveat that they follow the rules for Goliaths and can be given all the options available for that race? Certainly not that much more difficult than hairless Dwarves...
While I get what you're trying to say, it need not be black and white. You can adapt a campaign setting to what comes before without abandoning everything that makes it unique and interesting. In 2e, the half-giants did not exist, so Dark Sun made them. In 4e, the thri-kreen and muls did not exist, so Dark Sun made them, but the half-giants DID exist, and in a much more complex and (IMO) interesting fashion, so they decided against re-reinventing the wheel. Part and parcel of the act of rebooting Dark Sun was that the aesthetics stem from the new setting-in-development while treating the source material with respect -- without simply including something because it was included nearly two decades ago.
This is coming from someone who LOVED half-giants to what is likely an unhealthy degree: Goliaths are a perfect fit for the role of half-giants. If you doubt this, I challenge you to get your grubby mitts on a copy of Races of the Stone from 3.5, read the whole section on Goliath, and tell me that they are not both thematically appropriate and conceptually aligned with the half-giants as they were in 2e.
Personally, I would prefer a compromise of some sort. Maybe give halfgiants reach and a scaling bonus to damage rolls with 2handed weapons wielded in 2 hands. This would give them some of the halfgiant large size "feel," without some of the large size balance issues coming into play. However, some may think that this is overpowered as well.
Wait... you mean the Goliath Stoneblessed Racial Paragon Path, and the Goliath Greatweapon Prowess Racial Feat? How amusingly appropriate!
At, say, Paragon Tier, most characters have powers with large areas of effect, and some Paths even allow for Threatening Reach. It no longer becomes as huge an issue to include a Race that can reach up to 3 squares with a Reach weapon (although not threatening by default) and deal Large-scale damage. Don't get me wrong, it would be good. But monsters at Paragon Tier have powers and hit points to get around a defender or striker that controls such a large area, or deals hugh hit point damage.
It wouldn't work at low levels because it would be broken.
I simply dislike the fact that there is really nothing in Fourth Ed rules which will make a first level Half Giant feel bigger than a first level Mul.
It could have been as simple as:
"On Athas, goliaths are called half-giants. Any reference to half-giant should be interpreted as being a reference, mechanically, to the goliath 4E race."
"Half giants enjoy the same mechanical options and characteristics as goliath. Cosmetically, they are a little different. They do not have the stripes of goliaths in other campaign worlds. They are slightly larger. They tend to have stooped brows and..."
To start off: I'm just glad you're a fan of the Goliath inherently. I'll call that a win for both of us.
Yes, I'll admit there isn't a whole lot that makes Goliath feel mechanically big. I prefer the balanced, even nature of race design, even if this makes them feel more "bland" then previous iterations. This is one of those points in the discussion where the peanut gallery chimes in with how balance harms their ability to roleplay (and I'm hoping/assuming you're not one of these mouthbreathers), to which I simply state that, in my mind, this is a roleplay issue and therefore unhindered by mechanics. The feeling of size shouldn't be something that needs to be enforced mechanically, and the well-oiled machine that is 4e design and combat shouldn't take a misshapen cog throwing everything out of alignment to make a character feel special and unique.
In the era of 3.5, one of the methods they took with a lot of non-core d20 products to represent races that were inherently "more powerful" than the standard races was the concept of Racial Levels. Instead of including ridiculous things like Level Adjustment (UGH), you started as a very basic member of your race, on par with every other race. By pursuing those things that made your race stand out, you became essentially a paragon of your race, gaining all those things you might see on a monster's statblock.
To me, this was the vastly superior method to either being overpowered (or overspecialized in some cases) races or coming with ridiculous penalties (level adjustment, what?). In 4e, they kept this design philosophy, but instead of halting your development to be better at your iconic racial traits, they relegated it to feat and paragon path support.
Now I can start out as a perfectly functional character and choose whether or not to invest in the features that I like or dislike. Not only does this allow for a much, much wider functional class and concept selection, but it, to me, more properly represents actual species: the individual members of which are so ridiculously varied as to make "racial traits" almost laughable as a concept.
I'm a little ranty and off-topic, so I'll conclude with this: I prefer being able to choose whether or not my half-giant represents the iconic half-giant, rather than being forced into it, and (assuming a "balanced" game) "paying" for features I may or may not ever use or (assuming an "unbalanced" game) overshadowing (pun intended?) my fellow players by virtue of my race selection alone.
In 4E, a goliath is just another race... for a world that should be the normal campaign world turned on its head, using the core imagery and name just seems weird.
So far, none of the races have seemed unique to Athas... not just the Goliath. Elves are just Elves. Tieflings are just Tieflings. Goliaths are just Goliaths. I can play any of these races in PoL, FR or Eberron (I could even play a Mul or Thri-Kreen, since they're portable). The 2nd edition "unique" feel to racial creation has, so far, not been apparent. I'm playing the Encounters games, and have seen little to distinguish the look and feel of the characters from other WotC settings.
I'm not sure "breaking" the races is the solution... but then again, maybe we should be purposefully breaking the system. Maybe the setting should purposefully apply unbalanced traits to PCs - "throw a wrench into the mess". Make Half-Giants large. Allow Elves to shift their move at-will. Give Muls double hit points. Thri-Kreen can Standard Action twice a round. Halflings can eat a fallen companion to regain hit points... open the door to chaos and ignore the rules lawyers.
Of course... the setting hasn't been revealed, so there might be a optional rule for races that I haven't heard about (there is something about wild talents in there).
EDIT: Peanut Gallery chiming in!!
I am pretty surprised to see how interchangeably the material uses the term "goliath" and "half-giant". It really has a different mental image to me. A half-giant is a direct link to the sea of silt giants, to being super exotic creatures. In 2E they were on par with the 'kreen in terms of weirdness - everyone talked about them. It was one of the big things about the setting (no pun intended). In 4E, a goliath is just another race... for a world that should be the normal campaign world turned on its head, using the core imagery and name just seems weird.
It could have been as simple as:
"On Athas, goliaths are called half-giants. Any reference to half-giant should be interpreted as being a reference, mechanically, to the goliath 4E race."
"Half giants enjoy the same mechanical options and characteristics as goliath. Cosmetically, they are a little different. They do not have the stripes of goliaths in other campaign worlds. They are slightly larger. They tend to have stooped brows and..."
This.
Period.
After all, just because I'm an avid fan of a classic doesn't mean I can't enjoy a well-done reboot.
EDIT: Peanut Gallery chiming in!!
Score!
To be fair, I agree with your post, hypothetically speaking...
To be fair, I agree with your post, hypothetically speaking...
I do too... but it would never get published. It would make an interesting experiment, and might even be fun to play a Dungeon Crawl / Gestalt game. But at the end of the day, it's unfeasible for a player to have these kinds of abilities for the long-haul, and certainly not for a real role-playing game.
If you really want a large size PC that you know will be overpowered in the current 4E system, then that's what homebrew is for. If that's your style, I encourage you to try it out and see what happens. However, I don't care if Half-Giants "don't feel right" to you when they're balanced, and neither should the game's developers when it comes to what goes into a book. When official playable material is created, it needs to be balanced.
Thank you for your opinions.
The entire point of a campaign setting, though, is inconsistency with the core world. Even more so for Dark Sun. It has always been deliberately and unapologetically inconsistent with the rest of the DnD world. By this logic, Athasian Dwarves should wear full beards and long braids, to preserve their consistency with imagery in other books. Athasian Elves should be forest dwellers, since all the other core books talk about Elves as living in the woods, and that could confuse players.
Honestly, how difficult would it have been to make Athasian half giants look like they ought to, with a small caveat that they follow the rules for Goliaths and can be given all the options available for that race? Certainly not that much more difficult than hairless Dwarves...
While I get what you're trying to say, it need not be black and white. You can adapt a campaign setting to what comes before without abandoning everything that makes it unique and interesting. In 2e, the half-giants did not exist, so Dark Sun made them. In 4e, the thri-kreen and muls did not exist, so Dark Sun made them, but the half-giants DID exist, and in a much more complex and (IMO) interesting fashion, so they decided against re-reinventing the wheel. Part and parcel of the act of rebooting Dark Sun was that the aesthetics stem from the new setting-in-development while treating the source material with respect -- without simply including something because it was included nearly two decades ago.
This is coming from someone who LOVED half-giants to what is likely an unhealthy degree: Goliaths are a perfect fit for the role of half-giants. If you doubt this, I challenge you to get your grubby mitts on a copy of Races of the Stone from 3.5, read the whole section on Goliath, and tell me that they are not both thematically appropriate and conceptually aligned with the half-giants as they were in 2e.Personally, I would prefer a compromise of some sort. Maybe give halfgiants reach and a scaling bonus to damage rolls with 2handed weapons wielded in 2 hands. This would give them some of the halfgiant large size "feel," without some of the large size balance issues coming into play. However, some may think that this is overpowered as well.
Wait... you mean the Goliath Stoneblessed Racial Paragon Path, and the Goliath Greatweapon Prowess Racial Feat? How amusingly appropriate!
Hmm...was that meant to be condescending?
If I wasn't clear, I apologize, but I was suggesting that halfgiants gain such benefits as racial benefits...not gain them through the mechanics of feats and/or paragon paths.
If you disagree, I'm OK with that...we're different.
In 4E, a goliath is just another race... for a world that should be the normal campaign world turned on its head, using the core imagery and name just seems weird.
So far, none of the races have seemed unique to Athas... not just the Goliath. Elves are just Elves. Tieflings are just Tieflings. Goliaths are just Goliaths. I can play any of these races in PoL, FR or Eberron (I could even play a Mul or Thri-Kreen, since they're portable). The 2nd edition "unique" feel to racial creation has, so far, not been apparent. I'm playing the Encounters games, and have seen little to distinguish the look and feel of the characters from other WotC settings.
I'm not sure "breaking" the races is the solution... but then again, maybe we should be purposefully breaking the system. Maybe the setting should purposefully apply unbalanced traits to PCs - "throw a wrench into the mess". Make Half-Giants large. Allow Elves to shift their move at-will. Give Muls double hit points. Thri-Kreen can Standard Action twice a round. Halflings can eat a fallen companion to regain hit points... open the door to chaos and ignore the rules lawyers.
Of course... the setting hasn't been revealed, so there might be a optional rule for races that I haven't heard about (there is something about wild talents in there).
EDIT: Peanut Gallery chiming in!!
Thank you for sharing. I agree that the races do not feel unique to Dark Sun, as they did in 2nd edition.
I am personally of the opinion that what you suggested ("throw a wrench into the mess") might make the Dark Sun campaign setting all the more fun to play in. How exactly to throw the wrench, however, I'm not sure. But I am certainly open to hearing suggestions and opinions. That's one of the reasons that I thought I'd start this thread.
Thanks again!
I'm not sure how them being paragon paths and feats somehow makes them not racial traits, but for more on that topic, consider my second-to-last post in this thread. (For the record, I understand that you want to just add them to the baseline.)
For the record, I prefer the aesthetics of goliath to that of half-giants and I'm glad they took the former over the latter, but that's about as subjective as we can get, so I'll just skip it.
To start off: I'm just glad you're a fan of the Goliath inherently. I'll call that a win for both of us.
Yes, I'll admit there isn't a whole lot that makes Goliath feel mechanically big. I prefer the balanced, even nature of race design, even if this makes them feel more "bland" then previous iterations. This is one of those points in the discussion where the peanut gallery chimes in with how balance harms their ability to roleplay (and I'm hoping/assuming you're not one of these mouthbreathers), to which I simply state that, in my mind, this is a roleplay issue and therefore unhindered by mechanics. The feeling of size shouldn't be something that needs to be enforced mechanically, and the well-oiled machine that is 4e design and combat shouldn't take a misshapen cog throwing everything out of alignment to make a character feel special and unique.
In the era of 3.5, one of the methods they took with a lot of non-core d20 products to represent races that were inherently "more powerful" than the standard races was the concept of Racial Levels. Instead of including ridiculous things like Level Adjustment (UGH), you started as a very basic member of your race, on par with every other race. By pursuing those things that made your race stand out, you became essentially a paragon of your race, gaining all those things you might see on a monster's statblock.
To me, this was the vastly superior method to either being overpowered (or overspecialized in some cases) races or coming with ridiculous penalties (level adjustment, what?). In 4e, they kept this design philosophy, but instead of halting your development to be better at your iconic racial traits, they relegated it to feat and paragon path support.
Now I can start out as a perfectly functional character and choose whether or not to invest in the features that I like or dislike. Not only does this allow for a much, much wider functional class and concept selection, but it, to me, more properly represents actual species: the individual members of which are so ridiculously varied as to make "racial traits" almost laughable as a concept.
I'm a little ranty and off-topic, so I'll conclude with this: I prefer being able to choose whether or not my half-giant represents the iconic half-giant, rather than being forced into it, and (assuming a "balanced" game) "paying" for features I may or may not ever use or (assuming an "unbalanced" game) overshadowing (pun intended?) my fellow players by virtue of my race selection alone.
I can understand this position--it makes good sense.
You prefer a more gradual approach to racial icon realization...and one that is optional. I would prefer a crunchier baseline with options on top of that.
/shrug
I think either position holds weight.
I just noticed that size categories have received some slight alteration from Third Ed. Firstly, Colossal is nowhere to be found, and secondly, I cannot seem to find any hard numbers associated with sizes, anymore. However, Hill Giants in Fourth are Large, and the accompanying artwork makes them seem to be of a size which would be considered Huge, back in Third.
That said, it would be a simple matter to make Half Giants the ten or twelve foot behemoths of Dark Sun fluff while maintaining that they are Medium sized creatures. I am less upset now about the Goliath rules being used for them, but I still am not too keen on their visuals.
Giants (including trolls and cyclops) ARE large. Titans (and some trolls) are huge. Almost every large creature in the MM is depicted as being either (a) at least twice the height of a typical medium humanoid or (b) quadrupedal.
Even assuming that half-giants are 12' tall, from what I've seen, this still places them firmly within the span of medium creatures.
You are correct, there are no hard and fast numbers or charts. In fact, artwork aside, we really have no flavor indications of size either (I've yet to find a monster with a height or weight listed). That said, IIRC, one of the design goals with the MM back during the development of 4e was to decrease the overall scale (thereby increasing each size category). There's also that the idea that using arbitrary height and weight spans for how much space a creature threatens in combat is completely inane, of course.
Giants (including trolls and cyclops) ARE large. Titans (and some trolls) are huge. Almost every large creature in the MM is depicted as being either (a) at least twice the height of a typical medium humanoid or (b) quadrupedal.
Even assuming that half-giants are 12' tall, from what I've seen, this still places them firmly within the span of medium creatures.
So from this, would it be system breaking to simply (at least) give the halfgiant reach (non-threatening)? To me, that would be a great step towards the halfgiant of 2e.
I would want more...but that would be a nice start for me.
Why give threatening reacg as reach rules did not generally exist in 2nd ed. So how would that bring back a 2nd ed feel?
I wouldn't want halfgiants to possess threatening reach...just reach.
I wouldn't want halfgiants to possess threatening reach...just reach.
Luckily, Half-Giants can easily obtain increased reach at level 11 by taking their racial paragon path, Stone-Blessed.
The only reason it managed to "work" in 2nd edition is because 2e had racial and class requirements. Not everyone who wanted to play a half-giant could, depending on how good he could roll at character creation. Playing a half-giant required a Strength score of 17. I don't know what the chances are of rolling 17 on 4d4+4, but at a minimum you would have to roll 4, 3, 3, 3.
I put "work" in quotation marks because their design philosophy back then was different. It wasn't a question of "is this race equal to this other race?". It was a question of "how can we keep everyone from playing this one race?" And the answer to that was race/class requirements.
So when we are talking about bringing the Half-Giant into the fold of 4th edition, I think it is important to keep in mind that we are attempting to bring a brazenly, unapologetically broken race into a new edition. If we are unable to do so it does not necessarily mean that this is the fault of bad or lazy game design.
Speaking only for myself, I found 3rd edition versions of the half-giant to be... not so good. Wizard's version had psionic racial abilities, which was fine, except in order to use such a race you would have to give all of the other dark sun races psionic racial abilities, which was no help at all. That is, if you were satisfied with their stats, which I recall most people weren't.
Athas.org comes along with their half-giant which was about as true to the original as you could get in 3rd edition. However, in the name of game balance they actually made you -pay- for all of that increased damage, the increased reach, massive strength and constitution, and so on. When I ran 3e Dark Sun, my players quickly found that they would rather have the levels.
I ended up using the Goliath instead.
So from this, would it be system breaking to simply (at least) give the halfgiant reach (non-threatening)? To me, that would be a great step towards the halfgiant of 2e.
Reach is still a pretty huge boon, even when non-threatening. Other races pay hefty, hefty "fees" to increase their reach, making it a bit too much for an inherent bonus. Stoneblessed is already considered borderline overpowered because it grants a permanent reach increase, and I feel that's nestled safely where it belongs: as an option to burgeoning half-giant champions who focus their efforts on using their substantial size to its greatest advantage.
You are correct, there are no hard and fast numbers or charts. In fact, artwork aside, we really have no flavor indications of size either (I've yet to find a monster with a height or weight listed). That said, IIRC, one of the design goals with the MM back during the development of 4e was to decrease the overall scale (thereby increasing each size category). There's also that the idea that using arbitrary height and weight spans for how much space a creature threatens in combat is completely inane, of course.
Giants (including trolls and cyclops) ARE large. Titans (and some trolls) are huge. Almost every large creature in the MM is depicted as being either (a) at least twice the height of a typical medium humanoid or (b) quadrupedal.
Even assuming that half-giants are 12' tall, from what I've seen, this still places them firmly within the span of medium creatures.
First off, I have no problem with Goliaths being a PC race. They are a pretty neat race. They fit the "big goon" stereotype (which is obviously important). I'm happy to still have a race to play with that satisfies my urges to "smash things good". I don't mind if it's called "Hulk Smash!", "Half-Giant Smash!" or "Goliath Smash!". It all deals large damage with big weapons and there's something satisfying about rolling 1d12s. It doesn't matter about reach, or taking up 4 squares (that's what Chain Masters are for), it's all about the damage.
Ghandi's captured by desire, I want a PC race that can do this: gandhi.gfxartist.com/artworks/174578
Secondly, I'm not crazy about the Goliaths = Half-Giants thing. All this for ONE reason, ONE little nitpick, and this is all from a DMs perspective:
Remember that time when the PCs have that standoff with the Templars. You know the "standoff" scene, right? The ugly whiney Templar (like Yvoluk) and his two Half-Giant guards standoff across the street from the PCs and acuse them of some illicit activity. As often as you describe these giants as being 12' tall, you have to be able to support your announcement that these Half-Giants are large. They wield big clubs. They bear hug. They represent the large ego of the Templar. They stand a full head-and-shoulders-or-more higher than the rest of the Templar guards, and two above the Templar himself. In short, they are large is the size category, but don't necessarily have to be large in the damage category. They are half-giants.
Silverblade has got it right here: www.silverblades-suitcase.com/darksun/da...
So, honestly, I don't care if they are a playable race. I like the Goliaths, and I like their capability of doing large damage with 2H weapons. As a DM, however, I want the option of using some pretty exotic bad guys and some pretty iconic Dark Sun monsters. I want a large-sized enforcer.
In my campaign, regardless of the official WotC definition, Nibenay's army will have 1000 large Half-Giant lancers.
If you're doing that for NPCs, that's fine. Large is only broken on PCs. You'll just have to come up with some in-game explanation for the difference.
Thoroughbred (NPC) half-giants are too wily for long-term captivity or social integration.
Pygmy half-giants, or goliaths as sometimes called, have been bred to be more docile, less prone to deadly freakouts in crowded market plazas.
If you're doing that for NPCs, that's fine. Large is only broken on PCs. You'll just have to come up with some in-game explanation for the difference.
Yet again, I fail to explain fully. What I wanted to say, was that Goliaths and Half-Giants would be completely different races (yes, Goliaths would have just as much in common with Half-Giants as Muls). Something like:
Goliaths are a mountain-born, stone-blooded, earthen race known for their strong, hearty spirit. They would make excellent slaves, except for their "wild" tendencies. Like Halflings, captive Goliaths tend to lose the spirit to live and often will commit suicide in their attempts to escape captivity.
Half-Giants are the product of cruel Sorcerer-Tyrant experiementation between Athasian Giants and Humans. The race make excellent slaves, for their powerful bodies and loyal attitudes. They're too idiotic to think for themselves, so they tend to follow the pack. They make poor adventurers, because of their inability to think creatively.
... I realize there's potentially a lot of overlap between Goliaths and Muls, but there's always been that.
It's totally possible that whether a Half-Giant is Medium or Large depends on its parentage?
For example, maybe when a Giant Male mates with a Human Female, the result if a medium Half-Giant, and maybe when a Giant Female mates with a Human Male, the result is a large Half-Giant?
Or as another example, maybe first-generation Half-Giants, with one Giant and one Human parent, are large size while second-generation and on Half-Giants, with two Half-Giant parents, are medium? This still results in the question of what happens when a Half-Giant mates with a Giant or when a Half-Giant mates with a Human, but that can be worked out too. I'm just throwing out ideas...
maybe when a Giant Male mates with a Human Female, the result if a medium Half-Giant
I think the more likely result would be a rather frustrated male giant and a very dead human female. I could have done without that mental image, thanks.
the original Half-giants only mated with other Half-giants.
This.
As I've made repeatedly clear, I have no issues with Goliath size, but for those that need some sort of oDS-to-nDS bridge, I like the idea the successive generations have gotten progressively smaller. Perhaps "human DNA" is dominant, a side effect of their apparent racial adaptiveness? This leaves "old generation" large (or huge!) half-giants safely in the hands of the NPCs. The other concept I like is that those still under Sorcerer-King control are (a) magically enhanced, (b) bred for size, or (c) both. Obviously if the sorcerer-kings created them in the past, even if the knowledge to do so has been lost, there's invariably still some vestige of knowledge left. The idea that the SKs send the largest and strongest of their half-giant slaves to the breeding pens, where arcane wards further alter their possible offspring is very theme-appropriate.
Changing the tone of the discussion a bit: anybody remembers drow involvment in 2E Dark Sun? I read about what Wizards was doing with the elves in Dark Sun 4E, but, as far as I am aware, no mention of the drow "sub" race. I know they are associated with FR and a specific deity who is absent from the setting, but still, quite popular (and has been incorporated in Eberron) (and no, I don't plan to play a dual-wielding ranger with purple eyes)
There was no Drow involvement in 2E Dark Sun. However I've come up with some ideas in my blog post on standard races & Dark Sun.
On a side note, Elves of Athas have several "dark" acting elven tribes (DM only stuff), that have Drow-similar activities and goals. Some of these ideas could work... but you'd have to be creative to adopt them for PCs.
For those of you who did not follow the link to Xlorep_DarkHel's excellent blog post, I am taking the liberty to repost here, with due credits and many thanks to him:
- Drow -- An idea I've had before but never expanded upon it was an Athasian Underdark. There have been so many wars and civilizations buried by them, it is completely believable to me that there would be some kind of Underdark with vast ruins buried in the sands. It also is believable that a contingent of Elves (and/or Eladrin) escaped death at the hands of Albeorn by hiding deep within the dark ruins, and over the millenia have transformed into being the Drow of Athas. Not worshippers of Lolth, but rather I could see them as potentially a thorn in the sides of the Sorcerer-Kings. Literate, with a written history chronicling who these monstrous rulers truly are, and through spying and secretive strikes occasionally harass them by stealing supplies, killing off the occasional templar, or otherwise adding a little to the chaos that disrupts "normal life" within the city-states. Don't be confused -- these aren't allies of other opponents to the sorcerer-kings. They have their own reasons for what they are doing, and have little to no regard to any other race.
I could only accept drow in Athas if their innate powers, similar to arcane, would come from the mind (like a wild talent, sort of thing)
Agreed. Well, we can only speculate, but an underground ruins, psionic-based race for drows might be indeed feasable. Not sure how much they intend to stick to the original 2e setting however regarding other races included or skipped
Nothing seems too strange, yet.
On half giants: I made the decision early on before the previews that I would use the large versions as NPC only Half-Giants. The Goliath is fine for PC's but for templar enforcers, they have to be large for my game. Being large as PCs made them high priority targets in 2/3e and we never had one make it very far. Plus to me keeping the half giant large as an enemy gives me a lot of opportunity to mine the MB and all the large humanoids for cool "half giants". A troll might not exist on Athas but a half giant that has the psionic ability to regenerate(ever see Gemma in Ninja Scroll?) could be a really cool foe in the arena. Same goes for the Firbolg that grapples, or the hill giant shaman that is now a Half giant shaman. The possiblities are endless.
On Drow: FR then Eberron race that never has a place on Athas in the past could be used with some re-skinning. What if a tribe of elves, dark haired and eyed, didn't have the shifty-ness of the elves or the teleport of eladrin but had control of darkness and light instead. They could look like normal elves, just as eladrin will in my DS game. Just a different elven tribe, same look, different powers. The Shadow elf tribe from Elves of Athas (or was it Dune Trader?) might get this treatment in my game. Some things would have to go of course, the hand crossbows, the spider affinity (eberron's scopion drow could work though).
Re-skin my friends, re-skin.
What about the races that had been wiped out? (goblins, kobolds, etc?) Do these make a return appearance? A lot of new-to-the-setting races will be added (i think) so will these other options also make a return?
I just picked my stuff up and have only been able to glance so far, but one guy stood out for me. The Silt Runner. I saw his art and thought "Purple Koblods?!?" So while Kobolds have been wipped out, you could easily use the rest of the Kobold entries as various types of Silt Runners, with only a minor tweak.
As far as I'm aware, Drow were mainly a Forgotten Realms race
Hardly. Drow were an integral part of Greyhawk as well, and some argue that Lolth and the Drow are a Greyhawk element that FR took and ran with. (don't much care either way myself)
Drow also have a nice and snuggly home in Xen'Drik.
None of this has much to do with Dark Sun, of course, but don't grant the Forgotten Realms authority in areas where it doesn't have it.
?But I will complain about that until I eventually get lizardfolk stats
There's a ssurran entry in the Creature Catalog. Just a level 3 controller and level 4 minion skirmisher though.
I think he is referring to PC stats.
Now if I could just find it online somewhere so I can use it for a character.
What about the races that had been wiped out? (goblins, kobolds, etc?) Do these make a return appearance? A lot of new-to-the-setting races will be added (i think) so will these other options also make a return?
I just picked my stuff up and have only been able to glance so far, but one guy stood out for me. The Silt Runner. I saw his art and thought "Purple Koblods?!?" So while Kobolds have been wipped out, you could easily use the rest of the Kobold entries as various types of Silt Runners, with only a minor tweak.
The Silt Runners definitely seem like they could be descendants of kobolds, their appearance, size, and behaviors are very similar.
Now if I could just find it online somewhere so I can use it for a character.
DDI subscription + official release date = hi-res art galleries.
Random, someone with the CC in-hand: what size are Athasian giants?
The brohg, beast giants, and shadow giants are large and the beast titan are huge. You now should be using fire giants, hill giants, stone giants, firbolgs, etc. for your humanoid giants rather than just the lone one in the original set. All regular giants are large and titans are huge.